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Post by s on Sept 16, 2023 13:22:36 GMT
Im going to be nice to Dale and other Dog fans and assume their 10% Dogo Argentino ML robusticity estimate as legitimate for the hypothethical, personally i think it's about 8-9% but anyway: Dogo Argentino robusticity upper estimate: 10% Puma robusticity estimate: 9.39% So even if we take the highest estimate for Dogo robusticity, it's still very close to Puma. With a Puma less than 10% the weight of the Dogo being able to overpower it. And i remind you again, this is the highest dogo estimate. When did a puma less than 10% the weight overpower a Dogo? Pretty sure that's not what you're trying to say, but you lose me there. Typo, i was meaning 10% heavier |
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Post by s on Oct 16, 2023 7:01:02 GMT
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Post by s on Oct 16, 2023 7:07:19 GMT
Cougars get beaten up by everything they live with if they cannot ambush them. Even coyotes have ravaged them. Have jackals ever done that to leopards? This doesn't prove anything, every single animal on earth has a predation failure rate. As a matter of rule Coyotes perform poorly against Pumas in combat, i wouldn't call ocassionally treeing them "ravaging them" since they didn't kill or seriously injure it. Just spooked it. It's like calling a female Puma scaring off a Grizzly from it's cubs (even though it would lose badly in an actual fight) "ravaging it" |
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Post by s on Oct 16, 2023 7:08:27 GMT
The best leopard can take out an adult male wild boar, the best cougar evidently can't take out a large sow. The best cougar can't kill a dairy cow, the best leopard can (a bison in poor condition is fair game for best leopard, best cougar? Not a chance.) The best leopards are comparable to some jaguars, cougars are comparable to no jaguars without a massive size advantage. The best cougar takes a lot of shit from other carnivores who don't respect it at all, like bears, wolves and jaguars. The best leopard certainly doesn't, even just larger male African leopards are fairly bold. Leopards are superior in nearly every way, with combat being close but with a clear leopard edge. Leopards are harder to hunt, the boergreyhound/maritsane guys in Africa don't hunt them and likely for good reason. Meanwhile 4 spanish greyhounds will stretch a cougar... "The best cougar can't kill a dairy cow" I posted evidence of Pumas killing adult dairy and even adult beef Cows. Doesn't seem like the Pumas were exceptional individuals either. |
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Post by s on Oct 16, 2023 7:18:18 GMT
Imagine losing to a 1 year old subadult dogo and you're a 130lb prime male cougar... god damn Dogos are not close to the toughest dogs on the planet, it is not required. If 3 cougars engaged an adult Tosa Inu they would all lose, no joke. "If 3 cougars engaged an adult Tosa Inu they would all lose, no joke." Abbysmal delusional take. Unless the 3 Pumas in question are cubs the Tosa is going to be massacred. |
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Post by Bolushi on Oct 16, 2023 15:00:57 GMT
Cougars get beaten up by everything they live with if they cannot ambush them. Even coyotes have ravaged them. Have jackals ever done that to leopards? This doesn't prove anything, every single animal on earth has a predation failure rate. As a matter of rule Coyotes perform poorly against Pumas in combat, i wouldn't call ocassionally treeing them "ravaging them" since they didn't kill or seriously injure it. Just spooked it. It's like calling a female Puma scaring off a Grizzly from it's cubs (even though it would lose badly in an actual fight) "ravaging it" There's a video of a coyote with a (presumably inexperienced) puma on its back mauling the cat. Of course it's just a coyote so the cat was fine. Still a humiliating loss. Keep in mind a Dogo and a big coyote are about the same size in frame, so imagine a cougar like that attacks a Dogo... cat is dead. I don't know why you're reviving this though. Low-quality gay puma fanboys will drive any sane man insane. |
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Post by Bolushi on Oct 16, 2023 15:06:57 GMT
One was a dairy cow, and they mention they've seen 2 instances in 15 years. Second case seemed to be beef cattle? But it was a large cougar that killed a pregnant cow. Other cases are fair enough I guess. However there is, in fact, a shortage. |
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Post by s on Oct 16, 2023 15:30:13 GMT
This doesn't prove anything, every single animal on earth has a predation failure rate. As a matter of rule Coyotes perform poorly against Pumas in combat, i wouldn't call ocassionally treeing them "ravaging them" since they didn't kill or seriously injure it. Just spooked it. It's like calling a female Puma scaring off a Grizzly from it's cubs (even though it would lose badly in an actual fight) "ravaging it" There's a video of a coyote with a (presumably inexperienced) puma on its back mauling the cat. Of course it's just a coyote so the cat was fine. Still a humiliating loss. Keep in mind a Dogo and a big coyote are about the same size in frame, so imagine a cougar like that attacks a Dogo... cat is dead. I don't know why you're reviving this though. Low-quality gay puma fanboys will drive any sane man insane. Define mauling, can't be really called mauling without serious injury or death, i don't think the Coyote destroyed it's ribs or whatever. |
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Post by Bolushi on Oct 16, 2023 15:32:00 GMT
There's a video of a coyote with a (presumably inexperienced) puma on its back mauling the cat. Of course it's just a coyote so the cat was fine. Still a humiliating loss. Keep in mind a Dogo and a big coyote are about the same size in frame, so imagine a cougar like that attacks a Dogo... cat is dead. I don't know why you're reviving this though. Low-quality gay puma fanboys will drive any sane man insane. Define mauling, can't be really called mauling without serious injury or death, i don't think the Coyote destroyed it's ribs or whatever. |
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Post by s on Oct 16, 2023 15:33:34 GMT
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Post by s on Oct 16, 2023 15:41:09 GMT
Define mauling, can't be really called mauling without serious injury or death, i don't think the Coyote destroyed it's ribs or whatever. Ok? Not really serious injury, Puma isn't crippled or whatever. And i don't think this single case can be used to generalize their performance against Coyotes, because for one case you posted of a Puma getting trolled by a Coyote there are several recorded cases of them killing or seriously injuring Coyotes. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2023 4:31:47 GMT
This doesn't prove anything, every single animal on earth has a predation failure rate. As a matter of rule Coyotes perform poorly against Pumas in combat, i wouldn't call ocassionally treeing them "ravaging them" since they didn't kill or seriously injure it. Just spooked it. It's like calling a female Puma scaring off a Grizzly from it's cubs (even though it would lose badly in an actual fight) "ravaging it" There's a video of a coyote with a (presumably inexperienced) puma on its back mauling the cat. Of course it's just a coyote so the cat was fine. Still a humiliating loss. Keep in mind a Dogo and a big coyote are about the same size in frame, so imagine a cougar like that attacks a Dogo... cat is dead. I don't know why you're reviving this though. Low-quality gay puma fanboys will drive any sane man insane. i want to clarify that both were on a mutual hold, and the moment the coyote sneeked out, the cougar went after it, outgrappled it and slammed it in the ground effortlessly, then the yote ran away. |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Oct 17, 2023 9:25:59 GMT
As I've already specified in another thread, what we consider the coyote's feat to be impressive actually just belongs to the "A lucky one" type. While no one denies the coyotes badassery in surviving, that cougar wasn't experienced at all, it was just putting the worst performance you can put. Sure,a win is a win, but a win by luck. For the same reasons should we hype feral dogs for luckily surviving leopard attacks over leopards? Or even more funnily... should we hype foxes over rottweilers because of this case where the rottweiler's performance just shat on the history of his breed ?
There's a difference between surviving and repelling a stronger opponent by actual skills and surviving by luck.
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Post by Hardcastle on Oct 17, 2023 9:57:35 GMT
As I've already specified in another thread, what we consider the coyote's feat to be impressive actually just belongs to the "A lucky one" type. While no one denies the coyotes badassery in surviving, that cougar wasn't experienced at all, it was just putting the worst performance you can put. Sure,a win is a win, but a win by luck. For the same reasons should we hype feral dogs for luckily surviving leopard attacks over leopards? Or even more funnily... should we hype foxes over rottweilers because of this case where the rottweiler's performance just shat on the history of his breed ?
There's a difference between surviving and repelling a stronger opponent by actual skills and surviving by luck.
Eh... every individual case is different. In that specific case, the human interference probably saved the fox. It had momentarily "stumped" the rottweiler and that was kinda funny, it was biting it and manuveuring its feet to keep it's body out of harms way, but it wasn't going to hold off the dog for long. The dog was still pushing forward and trying to get it. The human ends up getting between them and the fox makes good its escape. I really think the dog was about to free itself and bite the fox, at which point that would have been all over. Credit to the fox for using a cunning crafty move to stave off getting grabbed when it was cornered. That's the kind of desperation and survival instinct that is often quite impressive in wild animals, especially foxes and coyotes and jackals and things like that (even lynxes and bobcats etc, different techniques used obviously but similar desperate self preservation), but the rottweiler wasn't exactly phased or concerned just temporarily unable to get a bite. If it was my dog I just would have stood stationary watching because I would have known what was about to happen. This human jumped in between them and the fox was able to escape before the dog could bite it THANKS to the human. The coyote vs puma case in question is very similar to the black village dog (called a tibetan mastiff, which is quite funny) with the leopard. Those 2 cases aren't EXACTLY like all the other failed predation attempt cases, because the canid really did "turn the tables" and have a good throttling bite on the cat. In many failed predation attempts the leopard/puma gives up as soon as there is even a possibility of being bitten because it didn't get the "clean seize" it was hoping to get. Often the dog didn't even get the opportunity to counter attack, but it became likely it could when the asssassination didn't go as planned, so the cat just aborted the mission. In those 2 cases things actually went bad for the puma and leopard, because the canid DID counter attack and make good on a throttling bite hold. Now... these 2 cases ARE kind of similar to the fox/rott case above actually. Because it is the smaller "victim" managed to utilise a counter attack that stumps their attacker momentarily. The only difference is I don't believe the rottweiler was going to flee, and that is where cats are different. Once an attack "devolves" into a fight, they usually are looking for an escape. The rott had a fight on his hands with the cunning little fox, but the rott didn't care and wasn't going to stop. It is always possible this can happen with smaller predators trying to defend themselves, they might manage to actually do it (otherwise they wouldn't bother trying). In those 3 cases it wasn't JUST luck, the small victim did use skill and strategy to turn the tables, even if only momentarily, it was enough to save their own lives. At the same time it's no HUGE shame on the attacking predator, can happen to the best of them. While reaching for your attack you can always miss, and while attempting to retaliate with a counter attack it is always possible the lesser victim might actually succeed in executing the attempt with accuracy. The shame for me, in my mind, is only when the "greater" attacker then gives up, which yes unfortunately does make me have a natural bias against cats for their natural inclination to give up when things don't work out perfectly. That isn't a good look to me - the running away from a much lesser animal. Not so much the difficulty or mistakes made in gaining quick control. That's all understandable. The rott in that video didn't actually bother me that much, and I'd happily shit on it if it did, because I have no love for rotts and don't consider them representative of the dogs I value at all (never mind the pet status and all that other stuff). It was trying to get the fox, the fox was too quick and agile for it to easily control (as they are for most dogs) so it was unable to land a bite and the fox evaded it with a combination of evasive manuveurs and even a cunning little controlling bite. Which was cool. Full credit to the fox, but also nothing makes me outraged with the rott, because it didn't care and was still intent on getting the fox when it escaped. Also like I said the human got in the way. What happened there actually could happen to a good dog IMO. And a leopard and a puma. The only question is would they still be chasing the fox at the end and trying to get it? I hope so, but don't know. |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Oct 17, 2023 14:59:54 GMT
As I've already specified in another thread, what we consider the coyote's feat to be impressive actually just belongs to the "A lucky one" type. While no one denies the coyotes badassery in surviving, that cougar wasn't experienced at all, it was just putting the worst performance you can put. Sure,a win is a win, but a win by luck. For the same reasons should we hype feral dogs for luckily surviving leopard attacks over leopards? Or even more funnily... should we hype foxes over rottweilers because of this case where the rottweiler's performance just shat on the history of his breed ?
There's a difference between surviving and repelling a stronger opponent by actual skills and surviving by luck.
Eh... every individual case is different. In that specific case, the human interference probably saved the fox. It had momentarily "stumped" the rottweiler and that was kinda funny, it was biting it and manuveuring its feet to keep it's body out of harms way, but it wasn't going to hold off the dog for long. The dog was still pushing forward and trying to get it. The human ends up getting between them and the fox makes good its escape. I really think the dog was about to free itself and bite the fox, at which point that would have been all over. Credit to the fox for using a cunning crafty move to stave off getting grabbed when it was cornered. That's the kind of desperation and survival instinct that is often quite impressive in wild animals, especially foxes and coyotes and jackals and things like that (even lynxes and bobcats etc, different techniques used obviously but similar desperate self preservation), but the rottweiler wasn't exactly phased or concerned just temporarily unable to get a bite. If it was my dog I just would have stood stationary watching because I would have known what was about to happen. This human jumped in between them and the fox was able to escape before the dog could bite it THANKS to the human. The coyote vs puma case in question is very similar to the black village dog (called a tibetan mastiff, which is quite funny) with the leopard. Those 2 cases aren't EXACTLY like all the other failed predation attempt cases, because the canid really did "turn the tables" and have a good throttling bite on the cat. In many failed predation attempts the leopard/puma gives up as soon as there is even a possibility of being bitten because it didn't get the "clean seize" it was hoping to get. Often the dog didn't even get the opportunity to counter attack, but it became likely it could when the asssassination didn't go as planned, so the cat just aborted the mission. In those 2 cases things actually went bad for the puma and leopard, because the canid DID counter attack and make good on a throttling bite hold. Now... these 2 cases ARE kind of similar to the fox/rott case above actually. Because it is the smaller "victim" managed to utilise a counter attack that stumps their attacker momentarily. The only difference is I don't believe the rottweiler was going to flee, and that is where cats are different. Once an attack "devolves" into a fight, they usually are looking for an escape. The rott had a fight on his hands with the cunning little fox, but the rott didn't care and wasn't going to stop. It is always possible this can happen with smaller predators trying to defend themselves, they might manage to actually do it (otherwise they wouldn't bother trying). In those 3 cases it wasn't JUST luck, the small victim did use skill and strategy to turn the tables, even if only momentarily, it was enough to save their own lives. At the same time it's no HUGE shame on the attacking predator, can happen to the best of them. While reaching for your attack you can always miss, and while attempting to retaliate with a counter attack it is always possible the lesser victim might actually succeed in executing the attempt with accuracy. The shame for me, in my mind, is only when the "greater" attacker then gives up, which yes unfortunately does make me have a natural bias against cats for their natural inclination to give up when things don't work out perfectly. That isn't a good look to me - the running away from a much lesser animal. Not so much the difficulty or mistakes made in gaining quick control. That's all understandable. The rott in that video didn't actually bother me that much, and I'd happily shit on it if it did, because I have no love for rotts and don't consider them representative of the dogs I value at all (never mind the pet status and all that other stuff). It was trying to get the fox, the fox was too quick and agile for it to easily control (as they are for most dogs) so it was unable to land a bite and the fox evaded it with a combination of evasive manuveurs and even a cunning little controlling bite. Which was cool. Full credit to the fox, but also nothing makes me outraged with the rott, because it didn't care and was still intent on getting the fox when it escaped. Also like I said the human got in the way. What happened there actually could happen to a good dog IMO. And a leopard and a puma. The only question is would they still be chasing the fox at the end and trying to get it? I hope so, but don't know. That's kinda true, what I've always implied is that if cats lacked self preservation all (or nearly all) the victorious streetdogs probably wouldn't have been known as "victorious". Cats just differ from canids generally, they are more arrogant, they care more about themselves getting hurt even by a much weaker opponent. That cougar though didn't get stunned even a bit by that coyote, it kept attacking and trying to fight it. It really wasn't scared at all. Gamest cougar ever? Jk |
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