Leopard vs Puma - definitive thread.

[Bolushi]

Sept 13, 2023 20:07:04 GMT s said:

That looked like a ~30kg Peccary but still, pretty good footage

Cool footage, cougars do predate on peccary.

[PumAcinonyx SuperCat]

Sept 13, 2023 20:04:57 GMT s said:

Sept 13, 2023 19:20:55 GMT PumAcinonyx SuperCat said:

After watching the video, I can see the cougar had a guanaco in its jaws, not a deer.

Thanks for correcting me, i will try search for more Boar Vs Puma interactions

That'll be great. I've tried searching for quite some time now, but have come out empty-handed.

[Bolushi]

Even I spent a while looking, and despite my elite best-of-all-time searching abilities I came up empty on anything other than a piglet being killed.

[s]

I disagree with Leopard-supporters using the fact they attack Cattle more as an argument for it winning, frequency of attacks on cattle by wild animals depend more on proximity to cities and other outposts than on strenght. It's why Coyotes attack Cattle more than Wolves, yet nobody claims Coyotes are stronger than Wolves.

[Hardcastle]

There's really no shortage of cattle in the range of pumas or leopards. In fact I recall one study where it specifically detailed which prey was most available to the pumas being studied, and cattle and feral hogs were easily and by far the most available prey by a factor of 10-1 compared to the deer and peccaries they were actually killing.

A good argument to defend the puma however is that the cattle available to leopards in asian countries is often smaller half-starved zebu type cattle, which as we went through in another thread are much much easier to kill than taurus cattle for multiple reasons. Size a big one, but also studies suggest taurus cattle are also much better and more proactive when it comes to defending themselves, even when compared to very large zebu-lineage cattle like Brahman.

[PumAcinonyx SuperCat]

Hardcastle , you've said on Carnivora that you don't think cougars would be able to kill warthogs if, hypothetically, they were introduced to Africa, and that leopards are slightly better at taking hog and hog-like animals than cougars.

I've not yet asked why. But is there a reason why you think this? I would have thought that both cats are equal in what prey species they are able to kill, neither being better than the other.

But I'm curious to know why you think this.

[CoolJohnson]

Sept 14, 2023 16:11:33 GMT Hardcastle said:

There's really no shortage of cattle in the range of pumas or leopards. In fact I recall one study where it specifically detailed which prey was most available to the pumas being studied, and cattle and feral hogs were easily and by far the most available prey by a factor of 10-1 compared to the deer and peccaries they were actually killing.

A good argument to defend the puma however is that the cattle available to leopards in asian countries is often smaller half-starved zebu type cattle, which as we went through in another thread are much much easier to kill than taurus cattle for multiple reasons. Size a big one, but also studies suggest taurus cattle are also much better and more proactive when it comes to defending themselves, even when compared to very large zebu-lineage cattle like Brahman.

Yeah, but Iran also has taurine cattle.

[Hardcastle]

Sept 14, 2023 16:51:45 GMT PumAcinonyx SuperCat said:

Hardcastle , you've said on Carnivora that you don't think cougars would be able to kill warthogs if, hypothetically, they were introduced to Africa, and that leopards are slightly better at taking hog and hog-like animals than cougars.

I've not yet asked why. But is there a reason why you think this? I would have thought that both cats are equal in what prey species they are able to kill, neither being better than the other.

But I'm curious to know why you think this.

I've flip flopped and altered my opinion on this over the years. It does sometimes seem like leopards are more familiar and accomplished with hogs. On the other hand, it can seem like pumas are more accomplished with equines. I have also speculated that pumas might prey on zebra more readily than leopards if they were in Africa.

These aren't hard stances on my part, just "thinking out loud" observations/speculations. I've recently started leaning more towards thinking there is very little difference between the capabilities of leopards and pumas, but like I said I flip flop a lot and am always ready to do it again.

[Hardcastle]

Sept 14, 2023 17:32:20 GMT CoolJohnson said:

Sept 14, 2023 16:11:33 GMT Hardcastle said:

There's really no shortage of cattle in the range of pumas or leopards. In fact I recall one study where it specifically detailed which prey was most available to the pumas being studied, and cattle and feral hogs were easily and by far the most available prey by a factor of 10-1 compared to the deer and peccaries they were actually killing.

A good argument to defend the puma however is that the cattle available to leopards in asian countries is often smaller half-starved zebu type cattle, which as we went through in another thread are much much easier to kill than taurus cattle for multiple reasons. Size a big one, but also studies suggest taurus cattle are also much better and more proactive when it comes to defending themselves, even when compared to very large zebu-lineage cattle like Brahman.

Yeah, but Iran also has taurine cattle.

Yes, but whether zebu or taurine it is then good to have additional information. In countries where people are doing it tough, it seems the cattle often are also-

These are cattle crossing the border from pakistan to Iran.

Here are some nicer conditions but still undeniably "meek" looking cattle in Iran.


I think really no matter where you are "killing cattle" and "killing hogs" both are possibly not that big of a deal. I can say with Jaguars, who also in studies show an aversion to mature cattle, I can at least say I have seen photos of them with cattle kills where I can say the dead bovine is an impressive specimen.

Like this-

Now that IS from the inferior "zebu" lineage, BUT on the other hand it is a huge brahman bull (as impressive as zebu can get) and I for one am like "damn" seeing that. Was also killed by a female jaguar (those are her cubs).

Vague mention of "killing cattle" could kind of mean anything.
Looking for cattle kills by leopards you will see some pretty underwhelming beasts-




Notice these are very small animals.

On the other hand, I will say this looks big. It is a female cow and zebu lineage but still, it is at least big-

[CoolJohnson]

Sept 14, 2023 18:13:34 GMT Hardcastle said:

Sept 14, 2023 17:32:20 GMT CoolJohnson said:

Yeah, but Iran also has taurine cattle.

Yes, but whether zebu or taurine it is then good to have additional information. In countries where people are doing it tough, it seems the cattle often are also-

These are cattle crossing the border from pakistan to Iran.

Here are some nicer conditions but still undeniably "meek" looking cattle in Iran.


I think really no matter where you are "killing cattle" and "killing hogs" both are possibly not that big of a deal. I can say with Jaguars, who also in studies show an aversion to mature cattle, I can at least say I have seen photos of them with cattle kills where I can say the dead bovine is an impressive specimen.

Like this-

Now that IS from the inferior "zebu" lineage, BUT on the other hand it is a huge brahman bull (as impressive as zebu can get) and I for one am like "damn" seeing that. Was also killed by a female jaguar (those are her cubs).

Vague mention of "killing cattle" could kind of mean anything.
Looking for cattle kills by leopards you will see some pretty underwhelming beasts-




Notice these are very small animals.

On the other hand, I will say this looks big. It is a female cow and zebu lineage but still, it is at least big-

You are right. Leopards, cougars and jaguars do predate heavily on juveniles.

However, I can see a leopard occasionally pull down a relatively large taurine type cattle.

Like this.

[s]

Mar 4, 2023 7:25:13 GMT Bolushi said:

Mar 4, 2023 7:22:54 GMT Colein said:

Lol, those dogos were no yearlings bro. Just stop coping, please.

Pumas kill adult boars so I guess boars are extra shit.

Good, a Puma kills a wolf everytime, maybe a wolfhound can hang for longer than 30 seconds, I'd reckon 35 on a good day.

Kinda like how dogos select for toddlers and babies to maul when their owner leaves the room.

The only excuses the dogs have is that they suck, that's it.

Nope, free ranging cattle.

If I could post pictures i would post a excerpt of 2 Puma adult moose predations.

It's all ambush, it's all fake news, avoid the vaxx!

You can't post pictures, nor can you post evidence, as you are wrong and you are dumb.
I will leave CoolJohnson to flaming you on cougars being an objectively shit animal a tiny baby step over cheetahs that get ragdolled all over the place by whippet-sized lurchers even with a 40lb size advantage. Cougar vs gripping dog or greyhound of the same weight is a mismatch in the dog's favor. Cougar vs 2 pet bloodhounds is a mismatch in the dog's favor. Any large dog that sees a cougar causes it to flee, as the cougar is aware of exactly how shit of an animal it is.
South American hunters have captured 8 month old cougars, raised them for many months and then came home to a bloody fucking mess with a dead cougar and a pampered pet dog. Hard to lose to a fucking cougar. The fodder of the LGD world, single Great Pyrenees, have bodied cougars. Large male ones, at that. How sad, how so so so sad. So sad in fact I've seen a golden retreiver and border collie kill a cougar.

I agree that Pumas are quite overrated in Carnivora (ComfyLoungue claiming 3-4 Dogos are needed for an Argentina Puma and 10 for a 200lbs Puma was ridiculous), but you seen to have gone the exact opposite direction and are insanely underrated them simply for the sake of countersignaling Cat fans lol

Here is my scale for Puma size and power, and how many Dogos would be needed for me to favour them more often than not

I (29-48kg): 1

II (48-67kg): 2

III (67-86kg): 3

IV (86-105kg): 4

"The fodder of the LGD world, single Great Pyrenees, have bodied cougars."

Pumas in the Pyrinees? Wow, amazing. And also Great Pyrinees are quite formidable Dogs, large 50-60kg Dogs, one of the most used dogs among the French nobility centuries ago, calling them fodder is a large exaggeration.

[s]

Im going to be nice to Dale and other Dog fans and assume their 10% Dogo Argentino ML robusticity estimate as legitimate for the hypothethical, personally i think it's about 8-9% but anyway:

Dogo Argentino robusticity upper estimate: 10%

Puma robusticity estimate: 9.39%

So even if we take the highest estimate for Dogo robusticity, it's still very close to Puma. With a Puma less than 10% heavier than the Dogo being able to overpower it. And i remind you again, this is the highest dogo estimate.

[Deleted]

Always just thought leopards > cougars, they just seem to be bulkier and burlier. Especially Persian leopards.

[Bolushi]

Sept 15, 2023 8:50:14 GMT s said:

Mar 4, 2023 7:25:13 GMT Bolushi said:

You can't post pictures, nor can you post evidence, as you are wrong and you are dumb.
I will leave CoolJohnson to flaming you on cougars being an objectively shit animal a tiny baby step over cheetahs that get ragdolled all over the place by whippet-sized lurchers even with a 40lb size advantage. Cougar vs gripping dog or greyhound of the same weight is a mismatch in the dog's favor. Cougar vs 2 pet bloodhounds is a mismatch in the dog's favor. Any large dog that sees a cougar causes it to flee, as the cougar is aware of exactly how shit of an animal it is.
South American hunters have captured 8 month old cougars, raised them for many months and then came home to a bloody fucking mess with a dead cougar and a pampered pet dog. Hard to lose to a fucking cougar. The fodder of the LGD world, single Great Pyrenees, have bodied cougars. Large male ones, at that. How sad, how so so so sad. So sad in fact I've seen a golden retreiver and border collie kill a cougar.

I agree that Pumas are quite overrated in Carnivora (ComfyLoungue claiming 3-4 Dogos are needed for an Argentina Puma and 10 for a 200lbs Puma was ridiculous), but you seen to have gone the exact opposite direction and are insanely underrated them simply for the sake of countersignaling Cat fans lol

Here is my scale for Puma size and power, and how many Dogos would be needed for me to favour them more often than not

I (29-48kg): 1

II (48-67kg): 2

III (67-86kg): 3

IV (86-105kg): 4

"The fodder of the LGD world, single Great Pyrenees, have bodied cougars."

Pumas in the Pyrinees? Wow, amazing. And also Great Pyrinees are quite formidable Dogs, large 50-60kg Dogs, one of the most used dogs among the French nobility centuries ago, calling them fodder is a large exaggeration.

That was purely to jeer at colein. Great Pyrenees are strong dogs and rugged outdoorsmen but very often refuse to engage a predator, especially a formidable predator. There is one dubious case of a Pyrenees killing a cougar posted by some guy on Quora, of a big Pyrenees named Tio killing a puma. It sounded fairly believable but also could be false. I dunno...
Great Pyrenees are still very good LGDs, they're better than the Archaic LGDs in some aspects (but decently below in general toughness). The best LGDs are crosses between Pyrenees/Maremmas and Anatolian Shepherds/Kangals/Sarplaninacs/etc.
Mind you I also started photoshopping images to make it look like "golden retrievers" (looks like one of the galgo pat. types) were killing big male pumas, colein was really making me angry. Lol.

[Bolushi]

Sept 15, 2023 8:57:47 GMT s said:

Im going to be nice to Dale and other Dog fans and assume their 10% Dogo Argentino ML robusticity estimate as legitimate for the hypothethical, personally i think it's about 8-9% but anyway:

Dogo Argentino robusticity upper estimate: 10%

Puma robusticity estimate: 9.39%

So even if we take the highest estimate for Dogo robusticity, it's still very close to Puma. With a Puma less than 10% the weight of the Dogo being able to overpower it. And i remind you again, this is the highest dogo estimate.

When did a puma less than 10% the weight overpower a Dogo? Pretty sure that's not what you're trying to say, but you lose me there.