Leopard vs Puma - definitive thread.

[colein]

Mar 9, 2023 5:02:10 GMT CoolJohnson said:

Mar 8, 2023 18:10:33 GMT colein said:

Those are Caatinga Pumas- the smallest puma sub population on the planet. Comparing an indian Leopard to a caatinga Puma is like comparing an arabian Leopard to the average North American Puma.

Find me instances of 20-40kg Leopards killing anything other than cattle calves and than we can talk. And make sure they are large, free range, horned cattle like Pumas and Jaguars deal with that protect each other and are aggressive.

Indian village cows are quite small and dainty, resembling large goats than actual cows: www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-mpcs-us-revc&sxsrf=AJOqlzWmTDpsSk8JvbVevscBiaiLg0znjg:1678297448290&q=indian+village+cow&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiS_e2Z8cz9AhXhnGoFHfjCAYcQ0pQJegQIBxAB&biw=412&bih=758&dpr=1.75#imgrc=s4h11Xcbl9EnlM

I would put those kinds of cattle in the same predation feat as a sambar deer, or perhaps a large female elk.

"Water buffalo" is quite colloquial. Are we talking a wild indian water buffalo? Which vary drastically in weight, or a domestic water buffalo which farther varies in weight? And the 3 month old water buffalo calf was killed by a pantanal female, which weigh around 25-30kgs. A "big male" Puma can weigh 60-70kgs in the Pantanal and could easily take larger water buffalo, as they have been shown to do with adult, horned, dangerous free ranging cattle.

An adult male Puma also killed a cattle adult in Costa Rica- which is like a like an arabian/cape leopard doing the same.

My posts never mentioned anything about the caatinga. There was only one I know of, which was a 30 kg female in that region.

Also, I searched up Brazilian puma weights, which are actually similar to Indian Leopards. This includes many regions far away the Pantanal. They are mostly in the 50-70 kg range for full grown males.


Well, Cape Leopards are reported to kill free-range donkey and occasional adult female elands.

How big are the cattle that cougars kill? Sounds like they are hesitant to kill at a certain size limit, like 180 kg.






While I am not disputing that Indian cows are a bit small, many breeds have a range from 300-600 kg.

 megahvt.gov.in/services/Breed_Dairy_Cattle_India.pdf

So a leopard is more eager to kill a 400+kg cattle than a puma if we are comparing them to areas where they are dominated by other predators.

Weren't both the water buffalo domestic? Anyway, leopards also predate on juveniles and sub-adult wild ones, including cape buffalo, gaur and banteng. Both predate on adult free-range cattle, but never on adult wild cattle.

Ok, but is the average Costa Rican cougar that small? I am aware of North Chinese leopards taking down adult cattle, and their size range is all over the place. For example, Heptner(1988) points out that these leopards weigh 25-48 kg, but a recent handful of leopards weighed 45-62 kg.

I got Caatinga because the study said it took place at "Fazenda Ouro Branco" which has multiple locations across brazil, but the study also said "central east brazil" which could only mean in the caatinga biome, which is where both Pumas and Jaguars are like 30-50kgs. Pumas are actually regionally considered extinct and are of low abundance, plus the area is dead- literally. There is very little prey in the caatinga and getting by means dwarfing in size.

A 70kg male Puma in brazil is like a 100kg male Puma from North America, and those can only occur near the pantanal region, or in more southern parts of the country closer to the atlantic forest. The vast, vast majority of male Pumas will be dropping out 50-55kgs, and that's being rather generous. They are very, very small. All you need to do is look up "costa rican" or "Brazilian Puma" and you'll immediately notice a resemblance between them and the 30-50kg arabian leopard's in body bauplan and head size. Even Pumas from Texas- which are like 60kgs on average look like giant monsters next to Brazilian Pumas, just compare the two and you'll see what I'm talking about.

There are 2 fully adult cattle predations that I'm aware of by Pumas in south america, one in costa rica and the other the pantanal, both were over 450+kgs in weight and both had a certain amount of "bull" DNA in them. So they were quite dangerous.

Indochinese give me heavy "brazilian Puma" vibes their heads kind've have that same "flat" profile on top and both seem to have slender necks. This would definently be an adaption to hunt smaller prey like muntjack in China and brocket deer/peccary in Brazil. Pumas in Patagonia by comparison have monstrous skulls- so huge in fact that they were excluded from a study regarding Puma skull morphology in Argentina due to their "clear marked size difference". It shows that the second Pumas get access to a large ungulate they will begin adapting straight back to taking down large game.

[CoolJohnson]

Mar 9, 2023 7:11:44 GMT colein said:

Mar 9, 2023 5:02:10 GMT CoolJohnson said:

My posts never mentioned anything about the caatinga. There was only one I know of, which was a 30 kg female in that region.

Also, I searched up Brazilian puma weights, which are actually similar to Indian Leopards. This includes many regions far away the Pantanal. They are mostly in the 50-70 kg range for full grown males.


Well, Cape Leopards are reported to kill free-range donkey and occasional adult female elands.

How big are the cattle that cougars kill? Sounds like they are hesitant to kill at a certain size limit, like 180 kg.






While I am not disputing that Indian cows are a bit small, many breeds have a range from 300-600 kg.

 megahvt.gov.in/services/Breed_Dairy_Cattle_India.pdf

So a leopard is more eager to kill a 400+kg cattle than a puma if we are comparing them to areas where they are dominated by other predators.

Weren't both the water buffalo domestic? Anyway, leopards also predate on juveniles and sub-adult wild ones, including cape buffalo, gaur and banteng. Both predate on adult free-range cattle, but never on adult wild cattle.

Ok, but is the average Costa Rican cougar that small? I am aware of North Chinese leopards taking down adult cattle, and their size range is all over the place. For example, Heptner(1988) points out that these leopards weigh 25-48 kg, but a recent handful of leopards weighed 45-62 kg.

I got Caatinga because the study said it took place at "Fazenda Ouro Branco" which has multiple locations across brazil, but the study also said "central east brazil" which could only mean in the caatinga biome, which is where both Pumas and Jaguars are like 30-50kgs. Pumas are actually regionally considered extinct and are of low abundance, plus the area is dead- literally. There is very little prey in the caatinga and getting by means dwarfing in size.

A 70kg male Puma in brazil is like a 100kg male Puma from North America, and those can only occur near the pantanal region, or in more southern parts of the country closer to the atlantic forest. The vast, vast majority of male Pumas will be dropping out 50-55kgs, and that's being rather generous. They are very, very small. All you need to do is look up "costa rican" or "Brazilian Puma" and you'll immediately notice a resemblance between them and the 30-50kg arabian leopard's in body bauplan and head size. Even Pumas from Texas- which are like 60kgs on average look like giant monsters next to Brazilian Pumas, just compare the two and you'll see what I'm talking about.

There are 2 fully adult cattle predations that I'm aware of by Pumas in south america, one in costa rica and the other the pantanal, both were over 450+kgs in weight and both had a certain amount of "bull" DNA in them. So they were quite dangerous.

Indochinese give me heavy "brazilian Puma" vibes their heads kind've have that same "flat" profile on top and both seem to have slender necks. This would definently be an adaption to hunt smaller prey like muntjack in China and brocket deer/peccary in Brazil. Pumas in Patagonia by comparison have monstrous skulls- so huge in fact that they were excluded from a study regarding Puma skull morphology in Argentina due to their "clear marked size difference". It shows that the second Pumas get access to a large ungulate they will begin adapting straight back to taking down large game.

Actually, the area of the study is in the Cerrado:

"Cattle ranching has increased deforestation disproportionately in the Brazilian Cerrado, replacing natural areas with extensive pastures."

"The Cerrado was considered by Sanderson et al. (1999) as one of the priority areas for jaguar study and conservation, due to the lack of knowledge on the species’ geographic range and population status."

From what I searched up, Cerrado cougars are normal sized.

Silviera (2004):Cerrado Cougar - 53.5kg for 4 males; 30.75kg for 3 females.

Anyway, I think it is interesting that Chinese Leopards showed a greater interest for adult cattle in comparison to other livestock.






"Figure 2 shows the number of livestock preyed on by the north China leopard within the 4 year study period (2015–2018) in and around the Tieqiaoshan Provincial Nature Reserve. A total of 173 livestock were killed, out of which 125 (72%) were adult cattle, 40 (23%) were calves, and 8 (5%) were sheep"

" Among the livestock, north China leopards killed more cattle...Therefore, the free-range system of the farming of cattle practiced in and around the reserve makes it ideal for the north China leopard to prey them. In the free-range system, the cattle roam freely outdoors rather than being confined in an enclosure for 24 h each day"

source: Consolee et. al. 2020. Human-Leopard Conflict: An Emerging Issue of North China Leopard Conservation in Tieqiaoshan Provincial Nature Reserve in Shanxi Province, China

[Bolushi]

Mar 20, 2023 2:41:49 GMT account_disabled said:

Thanks for this interesting information!

Heyo. How'd you find this board?

[CoolJohnson]

Since I cant post pics I'll write this in text form:



Measurements for 5 ALBERTA (I looked up the pic again, they were from alberta) male Cougar's:



Weight: 64kgs

Neck girth: 54cms

Chest girth 81cms



This was calculated using a general mean average equation, meaning that some Cougar's had significantly larger neck girths and significantly larger chest girths. Each Leopard you posted was a single individual.



Now if we compare this to the Kwazulu natal Leopard's in the 4-6 year age bracket we get this:



Weight: 66kgs

Neck girth: 53cms

Chest girth: 76cms



So as we can see despite the Leopard's being on average 2kgs larger the Puma's had more impressive measurements



A puma from a healthy population- and if the male is of mature age and over 60kgs he should have a 50cms neck more often than not, another thing you need to take into count- obviously is the Leopard's large obstructing dewlap which will inevitably be adding a few cms to any given measurement. I'm not going to guess every time on how much it is adding, but depending the dewlap size it could be adding a good 3cms, absolutely it would. Just keep that in mind, Pumas don't have dewlaps so their measurements are nothing but thick, neck muscle, no loose skin.



I found a few more Puma measurements:



A young 4 year old male Puma from Texas

62kgs

49cm neck

84cm chest

(Would've achieved 50cm neck in another year and a larger chest btw)



Male Puma from Florida (unknown age)

68.5kgs

55cm neck

88.5cm chest



The male Puma from Florida has a larger chest girth than any Leopard you've provided and a comparable neck size, the Puma from Texas had a larger chest girth than Leopard's that were 15kgs heavier from Kwazulu Natal (4-6yr old) and matched them in their neck girth range (47-60) (the 60cm figure came from Leopard's that were over 15kgs heavier btw.)



All in all it seems- to me at least that the Puma is more robust in the chest and less robust by give or take a cm or so in the neck, but it could be null becuase of the dewlap.


All of these measurements were taken from Carnivora on the "Cougar v Leopard" thread.







Get a 65kg male Leopard and 65kg male Puma and they will be near identical in neck and chest.

So you found some cougars that measured past the 50 cm mark on the neck width.



Ok, but usually their sizes are low.



For example, this was posted on discord regarding the measurements of the pumas in Black hills:



Chui did a calculation, 10 adult males (aged 4.5 to 11 years) which had the following dimensions:

Weight: 71.7kg (61.4 to 79.5 kg)
Neck: 41.7cm (38 to 47 cm)
Chest: 77.3cm (72.5 to 82 cm)




MALE LEOPARDS (ages 4-6)

Weight: 66.10 kg (56-79 kg)
Neck: 53.75 cm (47-60 cm)
Chest: 79.10 cm (76-84 cm)


From here:










I used those individuals since you mentioned the small Indian Leopard with a 48 cm neck girth. I also forgot to mention that there was a young 64 kg Persian Leopard with a neck girth of 54 cm and chest girth of 87 cm. This proves that different leopard subspecies have a 50+ cm neck girth  at the 60-65 kg mark at a more common rate than cougars. There were are also five leopards from Mozambique that were 66 kg with an average neck girth of 55 cm.


You mention the dewlap size, but it seems female leopards have bigger neck circumferences despite being smaller in weight.



For example, female leopards average 37 kg, and have 41 cm neck girth. On the other hand, female cougars average 41 kg, and have 35 cm neck girth.

Other things to consider:

-Both leopards and cougars had a neck measurement done at the top of the neck behind the skull
-Doubt the researchers counted the dewlap since that is just loose skin
-Even if your assessment is accurate, the leopard would still beat the cougar with an average neck circumference of 50-52 cm.


The chart of KwaZulu-Natal shows that the largest chest measurement of a leopard was 94 cm. There is also a case of a 69 kg leopard with a neck girth of 59 cm and a chest girth of 89 cm in Namibia.

So to summarize, the neck girth can overlap, but the leopard generally has the larger circumference. The leopard also does not have an inferior chest girth compared to the cougar.

[Bolushi]

"And make sure they are large, free range, horned cattle like Pumas and Jaguars deal with that protect each other and are aggressive."

[CoolJohnson]

Anyway, you are hard capping. The first answer on google for the "Canadian moose" claims their max weight is over 700kgs, and many hunters on different forums bring up their post field dressed deboned meat weight for their bull moose and some say 700-750lbs. To get live weight we need to double that and and add 25-30% which would be the max weight for a Canadian moose in British Columbia at around 1650-1700lbs or 750-775kgs, which is what google said. I have no idea where that pdf got such abysmal numbers, any hunter that has killed and weighed the animal themselves will tell you that 500kgs is pretty damn near absolute minimum weight for a Canadian moose.



Shiras moose have been claimed by multiple hunters- once again to be around 50-75% larger than any rocky mountain elk, and they are qualified to make these assertions becuase they have killed, handled and weighed both. 350kgs for a big rocky mountain bull elk + 50% and you get about 500-525kgs give or take for a large shiras bull moose. Some hunters say otherwise and say they are similar but many many more attest to how much larger their Colorado (shiras moose) moose is to any elk they've ever seen or killed. Plus they have pictures to prove it. You are greatly low balling Moose weight to try and make it more in line with leopard prey. Not working.


A huge, massive red deer might reach 300kgs. A large rocky mountain elk can reach 375kgs on rare occasion, and Alaskan/roosevelt elk can surpass 500kgs in weight. Pumas kill adult rocky Mountain bulls and roosevelt bulls all the time. It's not even worth bringing up, they casually slay 350kg+ animals.

The forum itself only gives the weight of Alaska/Yukon Moose. They even note that Shiras moose are small.



"I delivered 684# of moose to the processor from my AK moose this season. That was with bone in the 4 quarters only. If a guy was to deliver 342# of elk to the processor, IMO, that would be a large elk. In other words, moose 50% larger then elk."



"It's not even close. An AK Yukon moose is way bigger than an elk. Took three of us three trips each to get a moose back to camp boned out. We can get an elk in one trip boned out back to camp with three guys."



"I don't have much experience with elk, but I can give some input on the moose. While I haven't weighed all of them, I would say a mature bull is between 500-600 lbs of boned meat. Biggest bull I've packed was 683 lbs--but included the bones in the quarters above the knee. That bull was past his prime and was only a ~30" rack. Big difference as they age in my experience. I haven't hunted many any bull areas, but did this year and shot a "tweener" (that wouldn't be legal in most of AK). I didn't get a chance to weigh on the scales, but boned out I am guessing was only ~400-450 lbs of boned meat. maybe a 3 year old bull was my guess. Should be some more knowledgeable guess out there, but that's my $0.02."





Those Alaskan moose are large in comparison to the ones in the southern parts of Canada where cougar live.







For example, the two biggest bull moose were 578.20 kg and 521.5 kg, with the remainder of males being below the 500 kg mark.



source: Lynch et. al. (1995) "Moose weights and measurements from Elk Island National Park, Canada"





Another source also gave their average in the 400-500 kg mark.



"Mean whole weights of six adult female and three adult male Alberta moose (A. alces. andersoni) were 418 and 414 kg, respectively" (Blood 1967)





These are the moose that cougars encounter in Canada.





If we are using unofficial weights of Shiras moose then I can use unofficial weights of Sambar, there was an odd report of a 550 kg specimen, and call it even.




I was using average weights for rocky mountain elk and red deer, not max weights.



Alexandrov(1968) mentioned that the average Caspian Red deer was 310 kg, with a large specimen of 342 kg.



Fodosenko (1984) pointed out that there was a 423 kg specimen.



There was also another source that mentioned Caspian Red Deer reached up to 400kg:



"The Caspian red deer (Cer. elaphus maral), often referred to as the Maral or Noble deer, is one of the most recent species ... The mature stags weigh up to 400 kg" (Devine and Dikeman 2014).



Which Roosevelt Elk are you talking about?



The ones in Alaska were recorded to reach 500+ kg, while the ones in Humboldt, California averaged at 254 kg with a max of 325 kg (Harn 1958).



Either way, a camel can be comparable to this elk.



Dromedary Camels are quite large:



"Males typically weigh between 400 and 690 kg (880 and 1,520 lb); females range between 300 and 540 kg (660 and 1,190 lb)."


I also posted about leopard predation in Kenya and Iran.

foodchaingang.proboards.com/post/11780/thread


Although the leopards attacked compromised camels in Kenya, similar to cougars attacking compromised guanaco in Chile, leopards prey on camels even in the wet season in Iran. A bonus is that camels in Iran are raised in a more free-range style.


Camels can bully or injure other animals.








Here are camels that fight back even when tied up for sacrifice (Qurbani) during Eid Al-Adha.












There is a case of a camel kicking and biting two men to death.





A camel is moose sized, yet is one of the most dangerous animals that can kick or stomp virtually anything to death.  Or at least any animal that is not a pachyderm.

[Bolushi]

The "inferior camel" the guanaco is used to defend livestock sometimes from cougars, feral dogs among other predators. An actual big bad camel would stomp a cougar into the ground.
Elk are like large deer, not good at fighting predators. That doesn't stop bull elk from being totally immune to cougars unless ambushed by a large male cougar and being oblivious. 

[colein]

Mar 20, 2023 22:26:18 GMT CoolJohnson said:

Since I cant post pics I'll write this in text form:



Measurements for 5 ALBERTA (I looked up the pic again, they were from alberta) male Cougar's:



Weight: 64kgs

Neck girth: 54cms

Chest girth 81cms



This was calculated using a general mean average equation, meaning that some Cougar's had significantly larger neck girths and significantly larger chest girths. Each Leopard you posted was a single individual.



Now if we compare this to the Kwazulu natal Leopard's in the 4-6 year age bracket we get this:



Weight: 66kgs

Neck girth: 53cms

Chest girth: 76cms



So as we can see despite the Leopard's being on average 2kgs larger the Puma's had more impressive measurements



A puma from a healthy population- and if the male is of mature age and over 60kgs he should have a 50cms neck more often than not, another thing you need to take into count- obviously is the Leopard's large obstructing dewlap which will inevitably be adding a few cms to any given measurement. I'm not going to guess every time on how much it is adding, but depending the dewlap size it could be adding a good 3cms, absolutely it would. Just keep that in mind, Pumas don't have dewlaps so their measurements are nothing but thick, neck muscle, no loose skin.



I found a few more Puma measurements:



A young 4 year old male Puma from Texas

62kgs

49cm neck

84cm chest

(Would've achieved 50cm neck in another year and a larger chest btw)



Male Puma from Florida (unknown age)

68.5kgs

55cm neck

88.5cm chest



The male Puma from Florida has a larger chest girth than any Leopard you've provided and a comparable neck size, the Puma from Texas had a larger chest girth than Leopard's that were 15kgs heavier from Kwazulu Natal (4-6yr old) and matched them in their neck girth range (47-60) (the 60cm figure came from Leopard's that were over 15kgs heavier btw.)



All in all it seems- to me at least that the Puma is more robust in the chest and less robust by give or take a cm or so in the neck, but it could be null becuase of the dewlap.


All of these measurements were taken from Carnivora on the "Cougar v Leopard" thread.







Get a 65kg male Leopard and 65kg male Puma and they will be near identical in neck and chest.

So you found some cougars that measured past the 50 cm mark on the neck width.



Ok, but usually their sizes are low.



For example, this was posted on discord regarding the measurements of the pumas in Black hills:



Chui did a calculation, 10 adult males (aged 4.5 to 11 years) which had the following dimensions:

Weight: 71.7kg (61.4 to 79.5 kg)
Neck: 41.7cm (38 to 47 cm)
Chest: 77.3cm (72.5 to 82 cm)




MALE LEOPARDS (ages 4-6)

Weight: 66.10 kg (56-79 kg)
Neck: 53.75 cm (47-60 cm)
Chest: 79.10 cm (76-84 cm)


From here:










I used those individuals since you mentioned the small Indian Leopard with a 48 cm neck girth. I also forgot to mention that there was a young 64 kg Persian Leopard with a neck girth of 54 cm and chest girth of 87 cm. This proves that different leopard subspecies have a 50+ cm neck girth  at the 60-65 kg mark at a more common rate than cougars. There were are also five leopards from Mozambique that were 66 kg with an average neck girth of 55 cm.


You mention the dewlap size, but it seems female leopards have bigger neck circumferences despite being smaller in weight.



For example, female leopards average 37 kg, and have 41 cm neck girth. On the other hand, female cougars average 41 kg, and have 35 cm neck girth.

Other things to consider:

-Both leopards and cougars had a neck measurement done at the top of the neck behind the skull
-Doubt the researchers counted the dewlap since that is just loose skin
-Even if your assessment is accurate, the leopard would still beat the cougar with an average neck circumference of 50-52 cm.


The chart of KwaZulu-Natal shows that the largest chest measurement of a leopard was 94 cm. There is also a case of a 69 kg leopard with a neck girth of 59 cm and a chest girth of 89 cm in Namibia.

So to summarize, the neck girth can overlap, but the leopard generally has the larger circumference. The leopard also does not have an inferior chest girth compared to the cougar.

Was wondering when you'd bring those up. Comfylounge back on carnivora knocked those measurements because they aren't consistent with relative neck and chest sizes for the species anywhere else. Floridian Panthers showed an incredibly narrow range between age and weight and neck and chest sizes in male Pumas, meaning a 79kg Male Puma of 5+ years cannot have a 43cm neck girth. It isn't possible, plus there are clear errors in the measurements as the researchers confused "kgs" and "lbs" claiming every male Puma to be well over 100kgs. Which isn't possible.

Plus those Pumas were inbred and genetically bottlenecked, morphological measurements have a very discernable increase in neck and chest sizes- as they indicate genetic and moritorial health. Of which inbred specimens lack.

The female Pumas you were comparing weren't even 3 years old.

A male Puma from Chile with a weight of 48kgs had a neck girth of 52cms and a chest girth of 83cms, which would make that particular male more robust than any male Leopard for that weight class ever recorded. That male Puma was more robust than Jaguars that were 10kgs heavier.

So no my friend, they aren't "usually low" they are actually "usually" equal to Leopard's or more impressive based on geographic location if their weight and age are equal. You can't point to some flawed measurements of "178kg" male Pumas and somehow pretend the other measurements don't exist.

If you want to pretend that the large obstructing dewlap isn't adding some cms than believe what you want. But it is pretty damn obvious that it would because of how obstructing it is.

All Puma measurements on the other hand we can be confident in them being legit muscle. Unlike Leopard's.

Prove that every leopard measurement you gave me- INDIVIDUALLY, was measured with high neck and not low neck instead of you just wanting to believe whatever you want. The 55cm neck Florida panther was specifically stated multiple times with incredibly through accuracy to be of the highest possible high neck circumference (meaning the lowest possible reading) and he still scored 55cms. The 69kg leopard with a 59cm neck can easily be chalked up to low neck and the inclusion of a dewlap. Until proven otherwise. Not that in matters anyways because it isn't out of the range of a similar sized male Puma so idgaf.

The 94cm chest was from a leopard that was 10kgs heavier than any Puma I've provided. A Puma of that weight would likely hit 96-97cms.

[colein]

Mar 20, 2023 22:26:18 GMT CoolJohnson said:

Since I cant post pics I'll write this in text form:



Measurements for 5 ALBERTA (I looked up the pic again, they were from alberta) male Cougar's:



Weight: 64kgs

Neck girth: 54cms

Chest girth 81cms



This was calculated using a general mean average equation, meaning that some Cougar's had significantly larger neck girths and significantly larger chest girths. Each Leopard you posted was a single individual.



Now if we compare this to the Kwazulu natal Leopard's in the 4-6 year age bracket we get this:



Weight: 66kgs

Neck girth: 53cms

Chest girth: 76cms



So as we can see despite the Leopard's being on average 2kgs larger the Puma's had more impressive measurements



A puma from a healthy population- and if the male is of mature age and over 60kgs he should have a 50cms neck more often than not, another thing you need to take into count- obviously is the Leopard's large obstructing dewlap which will inevitably be adding a few cms to any given measurement. I'm not going to guess every time on how much it is adding, but depending the dewlap size it could be adding a good 3cms, absolutely it would. Just keep that in mind, Pumas don't have dewlaps so their measurements are nothing but thick, neck muscle, no loose skin.



I found a few more Puma measurements:



A young 4 year old male Puma from Texas

62kgs

49cm neck

84cm chest

(Would've achieved 50cm neck in another year and a larger chest btw)



Male Puma from Florida (unknown age)

68.5kgs

55cm neck

88.5cm chest



The male Puma from Florida has a larger chest girth than any Leopard you've provided and a comparable neck size, the Puma from Texas had a larger chest girth than Leopard's that were 15kgs heavier from Kwazulu Natal (4-6yr old) and matched them in their neck girth range (47-60) (the 60cm figure came from Leopard's that were over 15kgs heavier btw.)



All in all it seems- to me at least that the Puma is more robust in the chest and less robust by give or take a cm or so in the neck, but it could be null becuase of the dewlap.


All of these measurements were taken from Carnivora on the "Cougar v Leopard" thread.







Get a 65kg male Leopard and 65kg male Puma and they will be near identical in neck and chest.

So you found some cougars that measured past the 50 cm mark on the neck width.



Ok, but usually their sizes are low.



For example, this was posted on discord regarding the measurements of the pumas in Black hills:



Chui did a calculation, 10 adult males (aged 4.5 to 11 years) which had the following dimensions:

Weight: 71.7kg (61.4 to 79.5 kg)
Neck: 41.7cm (38 to 47 cm)
Chest: 77.3cm (72.5 to 82 cm)




MALE LEOPARDS (ages 4-6)

Weight: 66.10 kg (56-79 kg)
Neck: 53.75 cm (47-60 cm)
Chest: 79.10 cm (76-84 cm)


From here:










I used those individuals since you mentioned the small Indian Leopard with a 48 cm neck girth. I also forgot to mention that there was a young 64 kg Persian Leopard with a neck girth of 54 cm and chest girth of 87 cm. This proves that different leopard subspecies have a 50+ cm neck girth  at the 60-65 kg mark at a more common rate than cougars. There were are also five leopards from Mozambique that were 66 kg with an average neck girth of 55 cm.


You mention the dewlap size, but it seems female leopards have bigger neck circumferences despite being smaller in weight.



For example, female leopards average 37 kg, and have 41 cm neck girth. On the other hand, female cougars average 41 kg, and have 35 cm neck girth.

Other things to consider:

-Both leopards and cougars had a neck measurement done at the top of the neck behind the skull
-Doubt the researchers counted the dewlap since that is just loose skin
-Even if your assessment is accurate, the leopard would still beat the cougar with an average neck circumference of 50-52 cm.


The chart of KwaZulu-Natal shows that the largest chest measurement of a leopard was 94 cm. There is also a case of a 69 kg leopard with a neck girth of 59 cm and a chest girth of 89 cm in Namibia.

So to summarize, the neck girth can overlap, but the leopard generally has the larger circumference. The leopard also does not have an inferior chest girth compared to the cougar.

Pumas, generally speaking are also more robust in the chest. Pumas 15-25kgs smaller can have the chest girth of a 75+kg Leopard.

Leopard's have slightly larger chests in measurements but can easily be not the case due to dewlap interference and the ambiguity of neck measurement.

They seem about equal if we aren't being dishonest with ourselves here.

[colein]

Mar 21, 2023 23:24:49 GMT CoolJohnson said:

Anyway, you are hard capping. The first answer on google for the "Canadian moose" claims their max weight is over 700kgs, and many hunters on different forums bring up their post field dressed deboned meat weight for their bull moose and some say 700-750lbs. To get live weight we need to double that and and add 25-30% which would be the max weight for a Canadian moose in British Columbia at around 1650-1700lbs or 750-775kgs, which is what google said. I have no idea where that pdf got such abysmal numbers, any hunter that has killed and weighed the animal themselves will tell you that 500kgs is pretty damn near absolute minimum weight for a Canadian moose.



Shiras moose have been claimed by multiple hunters- once again to be around 50-75% larger than any rocky mountain elk, and they are qualified to make these assertions becuase they have killed, handled and weighed both. 350kgs for a big rocky mountain bull elk + 50% and you get about 500-525kgs give or take for a large shiras bull moose. Some hunters say otherwise and say they are similar but many many more attest to how much larger their Colorado (shiras moose) moose is to any elk they've ever seen or killed. Plus they have pictures to prove it. You are greatly low balling Moose weight to try and make it more in line with leopard prey. Not working.


A huge, massive red deer might reach 300kgs. A large rocky mountain elk can reach 375kgs on rare occasion, and Alaskan/roosevelt elk can surpass 500kgs in weight. Pumas kill adult rocky Mountain bulls and roosevelt bulls all the time. It's not even worth bringing up, they casually slay 350kg+ animals.

The forum itself only gives the weight of Alaska/Yukon Moose. They even note that Shiras moose are small.



"I delivered 684# of moose to the processor from my AK moose this season. That was with bone in the 4 quarters only. If a guy was to deliver 342# of elk to the processor, IMO, that would be a large elk. In other words, moose 50% larger then elk."



"It's not even close. An AK Yukon moose is way bigger than an elk. Took three of us three trips each to get a moose back to camp boned out. We can get an elk in one trip boned out back to camp with three guys."



"I don't have much experience with elk, but I can give some input on the moose. While I haven't weighed all of them, I would say a mature bull is between 500-600 lbs of boned meat. Biggest bull I've packed was 683 lbs--but included the bones in the quarters above the knee. That bull was past his prime and was only a ~30" rack. Big difference as they age in my experience. I haven't hunted many any bull areas, but did this year and shot a "tweener" (that wouldn't be legal in most of AK). I didn't get a chance to weigh on the scales, but boned out I am guessing was only ~400-450 lbs of boned meat. maybe a 3 year old bull was my guess. Should be some more knowledgeable guess out there, but that's my $0.02."





Those Alaskan moose are large in comparison to the ones in the southern parts of Canada where cougar live.







For example, the two biggest bull moose were 578.20 kg and 521.5 kg, with the remainder of males being below the 500 kg mark.



source: Lynch et. al. (1995) "Moose weights and measurements from Elk Island National Park, Canada"





Another source also gave their average in the 400-500 kg mark.



"Mean whole weights of six adult female and three adult male Alberta moose (A. alces. andersoni) were 418 and 414 kg, respectively" (Blood 1967)





These are the moose that cougars encounter in Canada.





If we are using unofficial weights of Shiras moose then I can use unofficial weights of Sambar, there was an odd report of a 550 kg specimen, and call it even.




I was using average weights for rocky mountain elk and red deer, not max weights.



Alexandrov(1968) mentioned that the average Caspian Red deer was 310 kg, with a large specimen of 342 kg.



Fodosenko (1984) pointed out that there was a 423 kg specimen.



There was also another source that mentioned Caspian Red Deer reached up to 400kg:



"The Caspian red deer (Cer. elaphus maral), often referred to as the Maral or Noble deer, is one of the most recent species ... The mature stags weigh up to 400 kg" (Devine and Dikeman 2014).



Which Roosevelt Elk are you talking about?



The ones in Alaska were recorded to reach 500+ kg, while the ones in Humboldt, California averaged at 254 kg with a max of 325 kg (Harn 1958).



Either way, a camel can be comparable to this elk.



Dromedary Camels are quite large:



"Males typically weigh between 400 and 690 kg (880 and 1,520 lb); females range between 300 and 540 kg (660 and 1,190 lb)."


I also posted about leopard predation in Kenya and Iran.

foodchaingang.proboards.com/post/11780/thread


Although the leopards attacked compromised camels in Kenya, similar to cougars attacking compromised guanaco in Chile, leopards prey on camels even in the wet season in Iran. A bonus is that camels in Iran are raised in a more free-range style.


Camels can bully or injure other animals.








Here are camels that fight back even when tied up for sacrifice (Qurbani) during Eid Al-Adha.












There is a case of a camel kicking and biting two men to death.





A camel is moose sized, yet is one of the most dangerous animals that can kick or stomp virtually anything to death.  Or at least any animal that is not a pachyderm.

P.s a 28kg female Puma from Texas had a 39cm neck girth and a 66cm chest. Why? Because she was 72 months old and not a subadult.

[colein]

Mar 21, 2023 23:24:49 GMT CoolJohnson said:

Anyway, you are hard capping. The first answer on google for the "Canadian moose" claims their max weight is over 700kgs, and many hunters on different forums bring up their post field dressed deboned meat weight for their bull moose and some say 700-750lbs. To get live weight we need to double that and and add 25-30% which would be the max weight for a Canadian moose in British Columbia at around 1650-1700lbs or 750-775kgs, which is what google said. I have no idea where that pdf got such abysmal numbers, any hunter that has killed and weighed the animal themselves will tell you that 500kgs is pretty damn near absolute minimum weight for a Canadian moose.



Shiras moose have been claimed by multiple hunters- once again to be around 50-75% larger than any rocky mountain elk, and they are qualified to make these assertions becuase they have killed, handled and weighed both. 350kgs for a big rocky mountain bull elk + 50% and you get about 500-525kgs give or take for a large shiras bull moose. Some hunters say otherwise and say they are similar but many many more attest to how much larger their Colorado (shiras moose) moose is to any elk they've ever seen or killed. Plus they have pictures to prove it. You are greatly low balling Moose weight to try and make it more in line with leopard prey. Not working.


A huge, massive red deer might reach 300kgs. A large rocky mountain elk can reach 375kgs on rare occasion, and Alaskan/roosevelt elk can surpass 500kgs in weight. Pumas kill adult rocky Mountain bulls and roosevelt bulls all the time. It's not even worth bringing up, they casually slay 350kg+ animals.

The forum itself only gives the weight of Alaska/Yukon Moose. They even note that Shiras moose are small.



"I delivered 684# of moose to the processor from my AK moose this season. That was with bone in the 4 quarters only. If a guy was to deliver 342# of elk to the processor, IMO, that would be a large elk. In other words, moose 50% larger then elk."



"It's not even close. An AK Yukon moose is way bigger than an elk. Took three of us three trips each to get a moose back to camp boned out. We can get an elk in one trip boned out back to camp with three guys."



"I don't have much experience with elk, but I can give some input on the moose. While I haven't weighed all of them, I would say a mature bull is between 500-600 lbs of boned meat. Biggest bull I've packed was 683 lbs--but included the bones in the quarters above the knee. That bull was past his prime and was only a ~30" rack. Big difference as they age in my experience. I haven't hunted many any bull areas, but did this year and shot a "tweener" (that wouldn't be legal in most of AK). I didn't get a chance to weigh on the scales, but boned out I am guessing was only ~400-450 lbs of boned meat. maybe a 3 year old bull was my guess. Should be some more knowledgeable guess out there, but that's my $0.02."





Those Alaskan moose are large in comparison to the ones in the southern parts of Canada where cougar live.







For example, the two biggest bull moose were 578.20 kg and 521.5 kg, with the remainder of males being below the 500 kg mark.



source: Lynch et. al. (1995) "Moose weights and measurements from Elk Island National Park, Canada"





Another source also gave their average in the 400-500 kg mark.



"Mean whole weights of six adult female and three adult male Alberta moose (A. alces. andersoni) were 418 and 414 kg, respectively" (Blood 1967)





These are the moose that cougars encounter in Canada.





If we are using unofficial weights of Shiras moose then I can use unofficial weights of Sambar, there was an odd report of a 550 kg specimen, and call it even.




I was using average weights for rocky mountain elk and red deer, not max weights.



Alexandrov(1968) mentioned that the average Caspian Red deer was 310 kg, with a large specimen of 342 kg.



Fodosenko (1984) pointed out that there was a 423 kg specimen.



There was also another source that mentioned Caspian Red Deer reached up to 400kg:



"The Caspian red deer (Cer. elaphus maral), often referred to as the Maral or Noble deer, is one of the most recent species ... The mature stags weigh up to 400 kg" (Devine and Dikeman 2014).



Which Roosevelt Elk are you talking about?



The ones in Alaska were recorded to reach 500+ kg, while the ones in Humboldt, California averaged at 254 kg with a max of 325 kg (Harn 1958).



Either way, a camel can be comparable to this elk.



Dromedary Camels are quite large:



"Males typically weigh between 400 and 690 kg (880 and 1,520 lb); females range between 300 and 540 kg (660 and 1,190 lb)."


I also posted about leopard predation in Kenya and Iran.

foodchaingang.proboards.com/post/11780/thread


Although the leopards attacked compromised camels in Kenya, similar to cougars attacking compromised guanaco in Chile, leopards prey on camels even in the wet season in Iran. A bonus is that camels in Iran are raised in a more free-range style.


Camels can bully or injure other animals.








Here are camels that fight back even when tied up for sacrifice (Qurbani) during Eid Al-Adha.












There is a case of a camel kicking and biting two men to death.





A camel is moose sized, yet is one of the most dangerous animals that can kick or stomp virtually anything to death.  Or at least any animal that is not a pachyderm.

Pumas kill any age and weight class of guanaco all the time. Lol, unlike leopards they don't need them to be compromised, small female Pumas will kill adult male guanaco and that is pretty standard.

Pumas aren't sympatric with camels, but if they were they'd kill them all the same. They would prove to be of little more difficulty than a mustang or bull moose. Camels evolved kn north america, camels have been Puma food for a millenia.

Canadian hunters tell a different story. 700lbs of boneless meat... Double that and add some %. There you go.

Except for the fact that Moose are an established species that can weigh well over 500kgs so a specimen weighing over 500kgs anywhere on earth really isn't out of the question. Meanwhile a sambar deer weighing that much is ridiculous. Its your fault for thinking shiras moose are rigid in weight when their US range is pretty vast. Colorado mountain moose have tons of nutrition, plus the weather is favorable. Just because they are "shiras" doesn't mean they can't weigh 500 or even 700kgs.

Pumaa kill 500kg wild mustang's so trying to cast doubt on their ability to hunt such large quarry is a lost cause. Teddy roosevelt said himself "Cougars tackle quarry that few african leopards would consider" (paraphrase)

A large red stag to hunters on forums is like 170-180kgs can the Caspian species really be that much larger? Or is it another extrapolation like some "lioness sized leopard"s and whatever else? I don't know. Roosevelt Elk are also typically much larger than that. Once again hunters on other forums can't shut up on how much "larger bodied" roosevelt elk are, and they were talking oregon, washington, BC. All Puma range where they are known to prey on elk.

[Bolushi]

Large red deer stags are the peak animal an average cougar can take on a not-unheard-of basis.

[colein]

Mar 22, 2023 2:56:55 GMT Bolushi said:

Large red deer stags are the peak animal an average cougar can take on a not-unheard-of basis.

The "average" male Puma can easily take a boar. Bull elk, moose, mustang among other animals.

[colein]

Mar 22, 2023 2:56:55 GMT Bolushi said:

Large red deer stags are the peak animal an average cougar can take on a not-unheard-of basis.

70lb females have killed bull elk, 90-115lb Brazilian Pumas have killed adult boar, 70lb females have killed adult guanaco. Red stag are in the same category as mule deer- albeit more towards the max mule deer weight (which Northern US Pumas kill very frequently) and would prove to be a very, very easy meal.

How can you still participate in this echo chamber? "The biggest animal a Puma can kill is a red stag!!!" Nope, sorry pal, they've killed adult moose, mustang, bull elk, boar- and according to teddy roosevelt, multiple draft horses, Sattle horses and horned cattle. Among a multitude of other things that include timber wolves larger than themselves and juvenile black bears. (Which was killed by a juvenile female Puma)

[Bolushi]

Mar 22, 2023 6:38:28 GMT colein said:

Mar 22, 2023 2:56:55 GMT Bolushi said:

Large red deer stags are the peak animal an average cougar can take on a not-unheard-of basis.

70lb females have killed bull elk, 90-115lb Brazilian Pumas have killed adult boar, 70lb females have killed adult guanaco. Red stag are in the same category as mule deer- albeit more towards the max mule deer weight (which Northern US Pumas kill very frequently) and would prove to be a very, very easy meal.

How can you still participate in this echo chamber? "The biggest animal a Puma can kill is a red stag!!!" Nope, sorry pal, they've killed adult moose, mustang, bull elk, boar- and according to teddy roosevelt, multiple draft horses, Sattle horses and horned cattle. Among a multitude of other things that include timber wolves larger than themselves and juvenile black bears. (Which was killed by a juvenile female Puma)

Any cougar fan who knows anything about their animal will tell you to cut the shit. Alas, cougar fans are weirdly gay.