Leopard vs Puma - definitive thread.

[colein]

Mar 6, 2023 9:08:31 GMT Bolushi said:

Mar 5, 2023 17:54:04 GMT colein said:

For some reason this website isn't letting me post pictures, it says "can't post a picture over 1mb" and so I try to post pictures that are only 100kbs or less and it still gives me an error message so I guess I can't do that. 

Anyway, you are hard capping. The first answer on google for the "Canadian moose" claims their max weight is over 700kgs, and many hunters on different forums bring up their post field dressed deboned meat weight for their bull moose and some say 700-750lbs. To get live weight we need to double that and and add 25-30% which would be the max weight for a Canadian moose in British Columbia at around 1650-1700lbs or 750-775kgs, which is what google said. I have no idea where that pdf got such abysmal numbers, any hunter that has killed and weighed the animal themselves will tell you that 500kgs is pretty damn near absolute minimum weight for a Canadian moose. 

Shiras moose have been claimed by multiple hunters- once again to be around 50-75% larger than any rocky mountain elk, and they are qualified to make these assertions becuase they have killed, handled and weighed both. 350kgs for a big rocky mountain bull elk + 50% and you get about 500-525kgs give or take for a large shiras bull moose. Some hunters say otherwise and say they are similar but many many more attest to how much larger their Colorado (shiras moose) moose is to any elk they've ever seen or killed. Plus they have pictures to prove it. You are greatly low balling Moose weight to try and make it more in line with leopard prey. Not working.

forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/thread.cfm?threadid=486478&forum=15

Read those responses. 

Since I cant post pics I'll write this in text form:

Measurements for 5 ALBERTA (I looked up the pic again, they were from alberta) male Cougar's:

Weight: 64kgs
Neck girth: 54cms
Chest girth 81cms

This was calculated using a general mean average equation, meaning that some Cougar's had significantly larger neck girths and significantly larger chest girths. Each Leopard you posted was a single individual.

Now if we compare this to the Kwazulu natal Leopard's in the 4-6 year age bracket we get this:

Weight: 66kgs
Neck girth: 53cms
Chest girth: 76cms

So as we can see despite the Leopard's being on average 2kgs larger the Puma's had more impressive measurements 

A puma from a healthy population- and if the male is of mature age and over 60kgs he should have a 50cms neck more often than not, another thing you need to take into count- obviously is the Leopard's large obstructing dewlap which will inevitably be adding a few cms to any given measurement. I'm not going to guess every time on how much it is adding, but depending the dewlap size it could be adding a good 3cms, absolutely it would. Just keep that in mind, Pumas don't have dewlaps so their measurements are nothing but thick, neck muscle, no loose skin.

I found a few more Puma measurements:

A young 4 year old male Puma from Texas 
62kgs
49cm neck
84cm chest
(Would've achieved 50cm neck in another year and a larger chest btw)

Male Puma from Florida (unknown age)
68.5kgs 
55cm neck
88.5cm chest

The male Puma from Florida has a larger chest girth than any Leopard you've provided and a comparable neck size, the Puma from Texas had a larger chest girth than Leopard's that were 15kgs heavier from Kwazulu Natal (4-6yr old) and matched them in their neck girth range (47-60)  (the 60cm figure came from Leopard's that were over 15kgs heavier btw.)

All in all it seems- to me at least that the Puma is more robust in the chest and less robust by give or take a cm or so in the neck, but it could be null becuase of the dewlap.

All of these measurements were taken from Carnivora on the "Cougar v Leopard" thread. 

Get a 65kg male Leopard and 65kg male Puma and they will be near identical in neck and chest.

A huge, massive red deer might reach 300kgs. A large rocky mountain elk can reach 375kgs on rare occasion, and Alaskan/roosevelt elk can surpass 500kgs in weight. Pumas kill adult rocky Mountain bulls and roosevelt bulls all the time. It's not even worth bringing up, they casually slay 350kg+ animals.

A staggering drunk man waking up from getting knocked out by Mike Tyson would still be coherent enough to point and laugh at you for saying that.
Surely if it happens all the time we would have a lot of visual evidence but alas, we don't. In my years of documentary watching and lurking, I've seen 1 or 2 bull elk kills. That's it. I'm gonna need you to put up numerous sources for that.
Prime bull elk and red deer stags do not have to worry about cougars much at all. Should a cougar make the tiniest of mistakes, if it miscalculates its ambush even slightly and doesn't immediately secure the neck/head with its powerful large male forelimbs for a killing bite... cougar gets ran into the snow and trampled to all hell.

And some bonuses:

Coyote skull that was crushed by a mother puma after wandering to close to her cubs, she took advantage and ate its brain:
www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/sdhpmi/cougar_mother_kills_and_eats_coyote_near_her_den/

Wolf chasing a puma chasing a coyote, the wolf immediately high tails it out of there when it realizes that it is of little more difficulty to a Puma than a coyote:
www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/m8krjb/cougar_chases_coyote_wolf_tried_to_intervene/

Wolf was skull bit by a Puma and killed: www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/zeucm9/the_skull_of_a_wolf_killed_a_puma_bearing_the/

Why are Cougar's killing so many wolves in washington? www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/116kwrw/why_are_mountain_lions_killing_wolves_in_pacific/

New mexico Puma with his cattle kill: www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/m0olgk/cougar_with_cattle_kill_in_new_mexico/

Female Puma chasing a hog much larger than herself: www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/otgklj/female_cougar_aiming_at_a_large_hog_in_texas/

And to follow that up, a large adult hog in California that was likely killed by the mother of these cubs: www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/t899k8/pair_of_subadult_siblings_return_to_a_large_hog/

Pumas rarely scavenge, plus the hog was clearly recently killed and with little damage to the specimen, indicative of a clean, surgical puma kill.

And as we know if small brazilian Pumas can kill adult hogs, a California female Puma can be 45kgs, more than enough to put away a hog.

[colein]

Mar 4, 2023 17:52:09 GMT Hardcastle said:

The poll is tied...

@hardcastle

Isn't this what you wanted to "elevate" Puma's in your mind?

Adult cow predation by male Puma in the pantanal: www.researchgate.net/publication/303260049_Habitos_alimentarios_del_jaguar_y_el_puma_en_el_Pantanal_Brasil_con_implicaciones_para_su_manejo_y_conservacion

Quote - "On the other hand, in the sample of animals killed by cougars calves constituted 92% of the total and 8% was represented by a young adult cow that was hunted by a large male cougar."

If I'm not mistaken free ranging cows from the pantanal are actual big dangerous horned cattle, correct?

Now I don't know if you understand the significance of this, but a Puma killing an adult cow in a biome surrounded by larger Jaguar's... I've never heard of a Leopard doing that. When they kill cattle it is always when they are the apex predator and nobody will steal their large quarry. For a puma to kill such a large powerful animal despite the presence of Jaguars... Is quite ballsy, and the paper went on to mention his size as "large". Perhaps he knew he was bad news himself?

As we know some Puma's can be freakishly robust and it isn't out of their DNA code to go crazy and start killing things way out of their weight class, there are numerous stories from native americans of Puma's killing grizzly bears- which sounds ridiculous until you realise that native americans from completely different areas and thousands of miles away from eachother all corroborate the same tale of Puma's killing grizzly bears...

Why? To add credence to this a juvenile female Puma killed a juvenile female black bear. Puma's have the ability to very interspecifically aggressive it seems.

There was another study from Costa Rica of all places that showed the effects of both Jaguars and Pumas on domestic cattle- which had some bull blood in them if I'm not mistaken, and not surprisingly 90% of the kills by both Jaguar's and Puma's were calf and sub adults with Jaguars killing older cattle on average...

Yet, the ONLY adult cattle specimen to have been killed during the entire study wasn't killed by a Jaguar, but a big Male Puma- AGAIN!

Dunno if that does anything for you, but yeah. Male Puma's are crazy, crazy macropredatory.

[CoolJohnson]

On the other hand, in the sample of animals killed by cougars calves constituted 92% of the total and 8% was represented by a young adult cow that was hunted by a large male cougar

Now I don't know if you understand the significance of this, but a Puma killing an adult cow in a biome surrounded by larger Jaguar's... I've never heard of a Leopard doing that. When they kill cattle it is always when they are the apex predator and nobody will steal their large quarry. For a puma to kill such a large powerful animal despite the presence of Jaguars... Is quite ballsy, and the paper went on to mention his size as "large". Perhaps he knew he was bad news himself?

There is a case of a Leopard doing that in a Lion/Spotted Hyena dominated region Zimbabwe.

Of leopard cattle kills,6.7% were adults, 43.3% were yearlings and 50.0% were calves



source: Loveridge et. al. (2017) Bells, bomas and beefsteak: complex patterns of human-predator conflict at the wildlife-agropastoral interface in Zimbabwe

[colein]

Mar 6, 2023 22:13:41 GMT CoolJohnson said:

On the other hand, in the sample of animals killed by cougars calves constituted 92% of the total and 8% was represented by a young adult cow that was hunted by a large male cougar

Now I don't know if you understand the significance of this, but a Puma killing an adult cow in a biome surrounded by larger Jaguar's... I've never heard of a Leopard doing that. When they kill cattle it is always when they are the apex predator and nobody will steal their large quarry. For a puma to kill such a large powerful animal despite the presence of Jaguars... Is quite ballsy, and the paper went on to mention his size as "large". Perhaps he knew he was bad news himself?

There is a case of a Leopard doing that in a Lion/Spotted Hyena dominated region Zimbabwe.

Of leopard cattle kills,6.7% were adults, 43.3% were yearlings and 50.0% were calves



source: Loveridge et. al. (2017) Bells, bomas and beefsteak: complex patterns of human-predator conflict at the wildlife-agropastoral interface in Zimbabwe

I concede on that than. The few that I saw encompassed Persia and locales in Eurasia where tigers were extinct or in low numbers.

[CoolJohnson]

Mar 6, 2023 22:51:33 GMT colein said:

Mar 6, 2023 22:13:41 GMT CoolJohnson said:

There is a case of a Leopard doing that in a Lion/Spotted Hyena dominated region Zimbabwe.

Of leopard cattle kills,6.7% were adults, 43.3% were yearlings and 50.0% were calves



source: Loveridge et. al. (2017) Bells, bomas and beefsteak: complex patterns of human-predator conflict at the wildlife-agropastoral interface in Zimbabwe

I concede on that than. The few that I saw encompassed Persia and locales in Eurasia where tigers were extinct or in low numbers.

Forgot to add that there was a Tiger dominated area where Leopards killed all ages of cattle and young adult water buffalo (ages 3-5).



Miller et. al. (2015) "Livestock losses and hotspots of attack from tigers and leopards in Kanha Tiger Reserve, Central India"

[CoolJohnson]

Mar 6, 2023 23:23:16 GMT CoolJohnson said:

Mar 6, 2023 22:51:33 GMT colein said:

I concede on that than. The few that I saw encompassed Persia and locales in Eurasia where tigers were extinct or in low numbers.

Forgot to add that there was a Tiger dominated area where Leopards killed all ages of cattle and young adult water buffalo (ages 3-5).



Miller et. al. (2015) "Livestock losses and hotspots of attack from tigers and leopards in Kanha Tiger Reserve, Central India"

I searched for a cougar comparison, and found that they went for juvenile cattle that were smaller than the jaguar prey.





"The depredation by pumas and jaguars was different at Fazenda Ouro Branco. Pumas caused most of the cattle depredation. There was also a difference in the age class of animals killed by pumas and jaguars. Pumas killed younger calves (0–6 months) and jaguars killed older calves (3–9 months). There is an apparently significant difference in the food habits of pumas and jaguars, especially where they are sympatric. Jaguars tend to prey on medium- to large-sized animals, whereas pumas tend to prey on smaller animals (Scognamillo et al., 2003). In the Pantanal, predation by pumas was more frequent on calves (92%) than on cows (8%), whereas that by jaguars was predominantly on cows (57%) than on calves (32%), oxen (7%) and bulls (4%) (Crawshaw and Quigley, 1984)."

source: Palmeira, Francesca BL, Peter G. Crawshaw Jr, Claudio M. Haddad, Katia Maria PMB Ferraz, and Luciano M. Verdade. "Cattle depredation by puma (Puma concolor) and jaguar (Panthera onca) in central-western Brazil." Biological conservation 141, no. 1 (2008): 118-125.


This akin to the lion-leopard or tiger-leopard relationship.


For water buffalo predation, I have not seen much apart from this predation on a 3 month old calf.



Figure 1 Three-month-old female water buffalo of approximately 90 kg found dead and partly consumed by a female puma on April 2008 at Sa ̃o Bento ranch, Pantanal, Brazil.

source: Azevedo, Fernando CC, Henrique VB Concone, André Pires-daSilva, and Luciano M. Verdade. "Puma (Puma concolor) predation on a water buffalo (Bubalus bubalis)." (2010): 431-432.

[colein]

Mar 8, 2023 5:35:40 GMT CoolJohnson said:

Mar 6, 2023 23:23:16 GMT CoolJohnson said:

Forgot to add that there was a Tiger dominated area where Leopards killed all ages of cattle and young adult water buffalo (ages 3-5).



Miller et. al. (2015) "Livestock losses and hotspots of attack from tigers and leopards in Kanha Tiger Reserve, Central India"

I searched for a cougar comparison, and found that they went for juvenile cattle that were smaller than the jaguar prey.





"The depredation by pumas and jaguars was different at Fazenda Ouro Branco. Pumas caused most of the cattle depredation. There was also a difference in the age class of animals killed by pumas and jaguars. Pumas killed younger calves (0–6 months) and jaguars killed older calves (3–9 months). There is an apparently significant difference in the food habits of pumas and jaguars, especially where they are sympatric. Jaguars tend to prey on medium- to large-sized animals, whereas pumas tend to prey on smaller animals (Scognamillo et al., 2003). In the Pantanal, predation by pumas was more frequent on calves (92%) than on cows (8%), whereas that by jaguars was predominantly on cows (57%) than on calves (32%), oxen (7%) and bulls (4%) (Crawshaw and Quigley, 1984)."

source: Palmeira, Francesca BL, Peter G. Crawshaw Jr, Claudio M. Haddad, Katia Maria PMB Ferraz, and Luciano M. Verdade. "Cattle depredation by puma (Puma concolor) and jaguar (Panthera onca) in central-western Brazil." Biological conservation 141, no. 1 (2008): 118-125.


This akin to the lion-leopard or tiger-leopard relationship.


For water buffalo predation, I have not seen much apart from this predation on a 3 month old calf.



Figure 1 Three-month-old female water buffalo of approximately 90 kg found dead and partly consumed by a female puma on April 2008 at Sa ̃o Bento ranch, Pantanal, Brazil.

source: Azevedo, Fernando CC, Henrique VB Concone, André Pires-daSilva, and Luciano M. Verdade. "Puma (Puma concolor) predation on a water buffalo (Bubalus bubalis)." (2010): 431-432.

Those are Caatinga Pumas- the smallest puma sub population on the planet. Comparing an indian Leopard to a caatinga Puma is like comparing an arabian Leopard to the average North American Puma.

Find me instances of 20-40kg Leopards killing anything other than cattle calves and than we can talk. And make sure they are large, free range, horned cattle like Pumas and Jaguars deal with that protect each other and are aggressive.

Indian village cows are quite small and dainty, resembling large goats than actual cows: www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-mpcs-us-revc&sxsrf=AJOqlzWmTDpsSk8JvbVevscBiaiLg0znjg:1678297448290&q=indian+village+cow&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiS_e2Z8cz9AhXhnGoFHfjCAYcQ0pQJegQIBxAB&biw=412&bih=758&dpr=1.75#imgrc=s4h11Xcbl9EnlM

I would put those kinds of cattle in the same predation feat as a sambar deer, or perhaps a large female elk.

"Water buffalo" is quite colloquial. Are we talking a wild indian water buffalo? Which vary drastically in weight, or a domestic water buffalo which farther varies in weight? And the 3 month old water buffalo calf was killed by a pantanal female, which weigh around 25-30kgs. A "big male" Puma can weigh 60-70kgs in the Pantanal and could easily take larger water buffalo, as they have been shown to do with adult, horned, dangerous free ranging cattle.

An adult male Puma also killed a cattle adult in Costa Rica- which is like a like an arabian/cape leopard doing the same.

[Deleted]

Mar 6, 2023 18:52:37 GMT colein said:

Mar 6, 2023 9:08:31 GMT Bolushi said:

A staggering drunk man waking up from getting knocked out by Mike Tyson would still be coherent enough to point and laugh at you for saying that.
Surely if it happens all the time we would have a lot of visual evidence but alas, we don't. In my years of documentary watching and lurking, I've seen 1 or 2 bull elk kills. That's it. I'm gonna need you to put up numerous sources for that.
Prime bull elk and red deer stags do not have to worry about cougars much at all. Should a cougar make the tiniest of mistakes, if it miscalculates its ambush even slightly and doesn't immediately secure the neck/head with its powerful large male forelimbs for a killing bite... cougar gets ran into the snow and trampled to all hell.

It's pretty common knowledge that Pumas kill bull elk with plenty of regularity, I don't have all 100 sources on me at all time to completely overwhelm you with like hundreds of videos, pictures and documented adult bull elk predations but I have a handful of them to share:

Here's a female with a fully grown bull elk kill: www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/qtxte6/mountain_lion_guarding_its_bull_elk_kill_montana/

A large male Puma killing a very large bull elk, unfortunately he was scared off by the photographer. (P.s notice the size of the Pumas neck) i.redd.it/f2f1uoy7mfe71.jpg

Puma clenching up bull elk's neck (after the rut so no antlers) i.redd.it/gg87z33yfxc81.png

Another bull elk kill: www.utahwildlife.net/threads/mountain-lion-kills-bull-elk.27514/

Pristine conditioned bull elk in his prime (as evidence by his massive antlers and large skull) killed by a Puma: www.reddit.com/r/AbsoluteUnits/comments/ip29uq/this_elk_was_killed_by_a_mountain_lion_about_a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Another massive prime bull, this time killed by a massive 180lb male Puma:

Puma killing a bull elk: www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/n8i38a/cougar_killing_a_bull_elk/

British Columbian Pumas are crazy. Their diet includes adult bull elk, adult cow moose and juvenile black bears: i.redd.it/dhwd2itp2e981.png

Over 2% of a Pumas diet in British Columbia is over 400kgs, which can only mean wild stallion and adult moose.

Though is it really surprising? When male Pumas in British Columbia are as bulky as Jaguar's? www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/vdlrxp/massive_male_from_british_columbia_this_province/

There are many, many, many more. I guess it isn't so so difficult when your forelimb robustity is second only to the Jaguar and you have an incredibly powerful bite that can crush skull.

Oh no Puma kill elk? So superior to everything! Lions killing cape buffalo isn’t superior apparently!

Snow leopards are indefinitely superior to cougars. First, Snow Leopards have fended off whole packs of wolves and dogs, secondly they have much more impressive predation feats. Like huge horses and ox. 

And reddit! 100% reputable apparently.

I love cats, and may love them more than canids on some. But cougars are like the worst cat to pick. Cheetahs included.

[colein]

Mar 8, 2023 19:27:37 GMT Wyatt said:

Mar 6, 2023 18:52:37 GMT colein said:

It's pretty common knowledge that Pumas kill bull elk with plenty of regularity, I don't have all 100 sources on me at all time to completely overwhelm you with like hundreds of videos, pictures and documented adult bull elk predations but I have a handful of them to share:

Here's a female with a fully grown bull elk kill: www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/qtxte6/mountain_lion_guarding_its_bull_elk_kill_montana/

A large male Puma killing a very large bull elk, unfortunately he was scared off by the photographer. (P.s notice the size of the Pumas neck) i.redd.it/f2f1uoy7mfe71.jpg

Puma clenching up bull elk's neck (after the rut so no antlers) i.redd.it/gg87z33yfxc81.png

Another bull elk kill: www.utahwildlife.net/threads/mountain-lion-kills-bull-elk.27514/

Pristine conditioned bull elk in his prime (as evidence by his massive antlers and large skull) killed by a Puma: www.reddit.com/r/AbsoluteUnits/comments/ip29uq/this_elk_was_killed_by_a_mountain_lion_about_a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Another massive prime bull, this time killed by a massive 180lb male Puma:

Puma killing a bull elk: www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/n8i38a/cougar_killing_a_bull_elk/

British Columbian Pumas are crazy. Their diet includes adult bull elk, adult cow moose and juvenile black bears: i.redd.it/dhwd2itp2e981.png

Over 2% of a Pumas diet in British Columbia is over 400kgs, which can only mean wild stallion and adult moose.

Though is it really surprising? When male Pumas in British Columbia are as bulky as Jaguar's? www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/vdlrxp/massive_male_from_british_columbia_this_province/

There are many, many, many more. I guess it isn't so so difficult when your forelimb robustity is second only to the Jaguar and you have an incredibly powerful bite that can crush skull.

Oh no Puma kill elk? So superior to everything! Lions killing cape buffalo isn’t superior apparently!

Snow leopards are indefinitely superior to cougars. First, Snow Leopards have fended off whole packs of wolves and dogs, secondly they have much more impressive predation feats. Like huge horses and ox. 

And reddit! 100% reputable apparently.

I love cats, and may love them more than canids on some. But cougars are like the worst cat to pick. Cheetahs included.

Nope, Pumas are proportionately more robust than snow Leopard's and more robust in more important areas (like forelimbs) than Leopard's. Ironically, snow leopard skeleton's have been compared to modern day cheetahs by researchers because of their small head and brittle bones (sorry)

Snow leopard's also fend off "wolves" yes HIMALAYAN WOLVES which are like glorified coyotes. Pumas deal with the largest, baddest sub species of wolf on the planet and still take to crushing their skulls and killing them. Both Leopard's and Snow Leopard's deal with beta wolves, Pumas are conexistent with the real deal.

No researcher would ever mix up a Puma for a cheetah, as a Pumas skeleton is monstrously more robust and massive, especially the forearms which stick out amongst everything else.

Lions are 3-4x larger than the average Puma lol. Pumas can't catch a break, they kill adult boar? Doesn't matter, puma's kill adult bull moose in BC which can weigh upwards of 700kgs? Doesn't matter, Puma's kill fully grown, healthy prime adult bull elks in the rut? Doesn't matter, a Pantanal Puma kills an adult cattle? Doesn't matter, a Puma kills adult Mustangs over 400kgs in weight? Doesn't matter.

Puma's are weaker because...?

Because why?

I posted some measurements earlier, maybe you missed them? Pumas in Alberta averaged greater chest girths and even a slightly higher neck girth than adult male Leopard's from Kwazulu Natal, and a Puma from Florida had a comparable neck girth with a greater chest girth than any proposed Leopard given measurement of by Johnson.

The Texas male Puma also had a chest girth greater than that of Leopard's that were over 15kgs heavier! But had a slightly lower neck girth (49cms) because he was younger (4 yrs old) otherwise he would've went over 50cms in neck girth.

Face it buddy, you have no reason to think the way you do other than you bashing your beliefs of leopards being superior on false information and you can't stand that reality breaking in front of you lol. You Pumas below snown leopards and above cheetahs? Lol. You are a jokester.

A puma would ragdoll the Snow leopard with its brittle little bones, and than it would proceed to fight a good 50/50 fight with a real Leopard right afterwards.

Rankings go like this:

Puma, Leopard, Snow Leopard, Cheetah.

[colein]

Mar 8, 2023 19:27:37 GMT Wyatt said:

Mar 6, 2023 18:52:37 GMT colein said:

It's pretty common knowledge that Pumas kill bull elk with plenty of regularity, I don't have all 100 sources on me at all time to completely overwhelm you with like hundreds of videos, pictures and documented adult bull elk predations but I have a handful of them to share:

Here's a female with a fully grown bull elk kill: www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/qtxte6/mountain_lion_guarding_its_bull_elk_kill_montana/

A large male Puma killing a very large bull elk, unfortunately he was scared off by the photographer. (P.s notice the size of the Pumas neck) i.redd.it/f2f1uoy7mfe71.jpg

Puma clenching up bull elk's neck (after the rut so no antlers) i.redd.it/gg87z33yfxc81.png

Another bull elk kill: www.utahwildlife.net/threads/mountain-lion-kills-bull-elk.27514/

Pristine conditioned bull elk in his prime (as evidence by his massive antlers and large skull) killed by a Puma: www.reddit.com/r/AbsoluteUnits/comments/ip29uq/this_elk_was_killed_by_a_mountain_lion_about_a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Another massive prime bull, this time killed by a massive 180lb male Puma:

Puma killing a bull elk: www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/n8i38a/cougar_killing_a_bull_elk/

British Columbian Pumas are crazy. Their diet includes adult bull elk, adult cow moose and juvenile black bears: i.redd.it/dhwd2itp2e981.png

Over 2% of a Pumas diet in British Columbia is over 400kgs, which can only mean wild stallion and adult moose.

Though is it really surprising? When male Pumas in British Columbia are as bulky as Jaguar's? www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/vdlrxp/massive_male_from_british_columbia_this_province/

There are many, many, many more. I guess it isn't so so difficult when your forelimb robustity is second only to the Jaguar and you have an incredibly powerful bite that can crush skull.

Oh no Puma kill elk? So superior to everything! Lions killing cape buffalo isn’t superior apparently!

Snow leopards are indefinitely superior to cougars. First, Snow Leopards have fended off whole packs of wolves and dogs, secondly they have much more impressive predation feats. Like huge horses and ox. 

And reddit! 100% reputable apparently.

I love cats, and may love them more than canids on some. But cougars are like the worst cat to pick. Cheetahs included.

Say whatever you want but you'll never find video of a Puma losing to labrador street dog LOL!

Puma > Leopard

[colein]

Mar 8, 2023 19:27:37 GMT Wyatt said:

Mar 6, 2023 18:52:37 GMT colein said:

It's pretty common knowledge that Pumas kill bull elk with plenty of regularity, I don't have all 100 sources on me at all time to completely overwhelm you with like hundreds of videos, pictures and documented adult bull elk predations but I have a handful of them to share:

Here's a female with a fully grown bull elk kill: www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/qtxte6/mountain_lion_guarding_its_bull_elk_kill_montana/

A large male Puma killing a very large bull elk, unfortunately he was scared off by the photographer. (P.s notice the size of the Pumas neck) i.redd.it/f2f1uoy7mfe71.jpg

Puma clenching up bull elk's neck (after the rut so no antlers) i.redd.it/gg87z33yfxc81.png

Another bull elk kill: www.utahwildlife.net/threads/mountain-lion-kills-bull-elk.27514/

Pristine conditioned bull elk in his prime (as evidence by his massive antlers and large skull) killed by a Puma: www.reddit.com/r/AbsoluteUnits/comments/ip29uq/this_elk_was_killed_by_a_mountain_lion_about_a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Another massive prime bull, this time killed by a massive 180lb male Puma:

Puma killing a bull elk: www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/n8i38a/cougar_killing_a_bull_elk/

British Columbian Pumas are crazy. Their diet includes adult bull elk, adult cow moose and juvenile black bears: i.redd.it/dhwd2itp2e981.png

Over 2% of a Pumas diet in British Columbia is over 400kgs, which can only mean wild stallion and adult moose.

Though is it really surprising? When male Pumas in British Columbia are as bulky as Jaguar's? www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/vdlrxp/massive_male_from_british_columbia_this_province/

There are many, many, many more. I guess it isn't so so difficult when your forelimb robustity is second only to the Jaguar and you have an incredibly powerful bite that can crush skull.

Oh no Puma kill elk? So superior to everything! Lions killing cape buffalo isn’t superior apparently!

Snow leopards are indefinitely superior to cougars. First, Snow Leopards have fended off whole packs of wolves and dogs, secondly they have much more impressive predation feats. Like huge horses and ox. 

And reddit! 100% reputable apparently.

I love cats, and may love them more than canids on some. But cougars are like the worst cat to pick. Cheetahs included.

Here's some facts:

Puma's are the most robust medium sized cat (Leopard, snow leopard, puma, EU lynx) in the upper body (forelimbs)

Puma's are the most macropredatory of all of the medium sized cats, consistently taking down prey several times their weight each time they hunt. Their large ungulate diet includes:

Moose, elk, Mustang, Donkey, Feral Hog, Guanaco, Domestic cattle and other introduced species like Nilgai, Zebra, Aoudad and more.

They also take on and opportunistically kill:

Ocelots, bobcats, coyotes (in great number), Timber wolves, young black bears, wolverines and more.

Pumas are the only medium sized cat to prove themselves adept at crushing skull.

Pumas have the largest sagittal Crest development of any medium cat

Pumas are the largest of all of the medium sized cats in body weight

And male Pumas are just as robust as male Leopard's- if not moreso in the chest.

AAAAAAND Pumas are arguably the most adaptable big cats, being able to survive off of rabbits in Patagonia, or penguins, or iguanas and lizards in costa rica.

[Deleted]

Mar 8, 2023 20:34:26 GMT colein said:

Mar 8, 2023 19:27:37 GMT Wyatt said:

Oh no Puma kill elk? So superior to everything! Lions killing cape buffalo isn’t superior apparently!

Snow leopards are indefinitely superior to cougars. First, Snow Leopards have fended off whole packs of wolves and dogs, secondly they have much more impressive predation feats. Like huge horses and ox. 

And reddit! 100% reputable apparently.

I love cats, and may love them more than canids on some. But cougars are like the worst cat to pick. Cheetahs included.

Say whatever you want but you'll never find video of a Puma losing to labrador street dog LOL!

Puma > Leopard

Delusion. Snow Leopards don’t lose against street dogs, also a delusion. Ironic enough how every video of a Snow Leopard with a dog is them beating the ever loving shit out of them. 
Even if Snow Leopards were on the same robust as cheetahs, it wouldn’t matter as thats not why we hate them. Cheetahs have semi-retractable claws, I have hardly ever seen any good predation feats from them and they are kleptoparasited by every body of life in Africa except for maybe African Wildcats and Servals.

[Bolushi]

Mar 8, 2023 22:16:53 GMT Wyatt said:

Mar 8, 2023 20:34:26 GMT colein said:

Say whatever you want but you'll never find video of a Puma losing to labrador street dog LOL!

Puma > Leopard

Delusion. Snow Leopards don’t lose against street dogs, also a delusion. Ironic enough how every video of a Snow Leopard with a dog is them beating the ever loving shit out of them. 
Even if Snow Leopards were on the same robust as cheetahs, it wouldn’t matter as thats not why we hate them. Cheetahs have semi-retractable claws, I have hardly ever seen any good predation feats from them and they are kleptoparasited by every body of life in Africa except for maybe African Wildcats and Servals.

There's a video of a brown hyena making like 4 adult male cheetahs haul ass.

[colein]

Mar 8, 2023 22:16:53 GMT Wyatt said:

Mar 8, 2023 20:34:26 GMT colein said:

Say whatever you want but you'll never find video of a Puma losing to labrador street dog LOL!

Puma > Leopard

Delusion. Snow Leopards don’t lose against street dogs, also a delusion. Ironic enough how every video of a Snow Leopard with a dog is them beating the ever loving shit out of them. 
Even if Snow Leopards were on the same robust as cheetahs, it wouldn’t matter as thats not why we hate them. Cheetahs have semi-retractable claws, I have hardly ever seen any good predation feats from them and they are kleptoparasited by every body of life in Africa except for maybe African Wildcats and Servals.

OK, so than why are you putting the Puma below the snow leopard when Pumas are superior to them in every way? Last I checked Pumas have retractable claws, and Ironically they ALSO have the largest claws of any extant medium cat as well lol. I forgot about that.

With a Leopard you can mount an argument for whether they are superior to pumas or vise versa but snow leopards are out of the running all together.

Cheetahs also have killed warthogs, and adult wildebeest and young-adult zebra on occasion in coalitions- but that's irrelevant because Pumas are not cheetahs! Lol

Does this young male Puma look like a cheetah to you with his giant shoulder, chest and neck muscles?


That's a predator that's designed to kill dangerous prey that can fight back, like elk- and by extension boar, despite them not being native to the americas. Their thick, robust bones aren't robust for no reason, they're designed that way to sustain high amounts of stress and trauma from subjugating large, dangerous prey- just like Leopard's. You'll never find a snow leopard built like that and you'll have to look at other beastly Leopard's to get a good comparison. And when you do you'll still notice how much larger the Pumas forelimbs are- even by a purely visual perspective.

Look at how beefy a male Puma's upper torso is:

http://instagram.com/p/CLNqDcGFHrz

[CoolJohnson]

Mar 8, 2023 18:10:33 GMT colein said:

Mar 8, 2023 5:35:40 GMT CoolJohnson said:

I searched for a cougar comparison, and found that they went for juvenile cattle that were smaller than the jaguar prey.





"The depredation by pumas and jaguars was different at Fazenda Ouro Branco. Pumas caused most of the cattle depredation. There was also a difference in the age class of animals killed by pumas and jaguars. Pumas killed younger calves (0–6 months) and jaguars killed older calves (3–9 months). There is an apparently significant difference in the food habits of pumas and jaguars, especially where they are sympatric. Jaguars tend to prey on medium- to large-sized animals, whereas pumas tend to prey on smaller animals (Scognamillo et al., 2003). In the Pantanal, predation by pumas was more frequent on calves (92%) than on cows (8%), whereas that by jaguars was predominantly on cows (57%) than on calves (32%), oxen (7%) and bulls (4%) (Crawshaw and Quigley, 1984)."

source: Palmeira, Francesca BL, Peter G. Crawshaw Jr, Claudio M. Haddad, Katia Maria PMB Ferraz, and Luciano M. Verdade. "Cattle depredation by puma (Puma concolor) and jaguar (Panthera onca) in central-western Brazil." Biological conservation 141, no. 1 (2008): 118-125.


This akin to the lion-leopard or tiger-leopard relationship.


For water buffalo predation, I have not seen much apart from this predation on a 3 month old calf.



Figure 1 Three-month-old female water buffalo of approximately 90 kg found dead and partly consumed by a female puma on April 2008 at Sa ̃o Bento ranch, Pantanal, Brazil.

source: Azevedo, Fernando CC, Henrique VB Concone, André Pires-daSilva, and Luciano M. Verdade. "Puma (Puma concolor) predation on a water buffalo (Bubalus bubalis)." (2010): 431-432.

Those are Caatinga Pumas- the smallest puma sub population on the planet. Comparing an indian Leopard to a caatinga Puma is like comparing an arabian Leopard to the average North American Puma.

Find me instances of 20-40kg Leopards killing anything other than cattle calves and than we can talk. And make sure they are large, free range, horned cattle like Pumas and Jaguars deal with that protect each other and are aggressive.

Indian village cows are quite small and dainty, resembling large goats than actual cows: www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-mpcs-us-revc&sxsrf=AJOqlzWmTDpsSk8JvbVevscBiaiLg0znjg:1678297448290&q=indian+village+cow&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiS_e2Z8cz9AhXhnGoFHfjCAYcQ0pQJegQIBxAB&biw=412&bih=758&dpr=1.75#imgrc=s4h11Xcbl9EnlM

I would put those kinds of cattle in the same predation feat as a sambar deer, or perhaps a large female elk.

"Water buffalo" is quite colloquial. Are we talking a wild indian water buffalo? Which vary drastically in weight, or a domestic water buffalo which farther varies in weight? And the 3 month old water buffalo calf was killed by a pantanal female, which weigh around 25-30kgs. A "big male" Puma can weigh 60-70kgs in the Pantanal and could easily take larger water buffalo, as they have been shown to do with adult, horned, dangerous free ranging cattle.

An adult male Puma also killed a cattle adult in Costa Rica- which is like a like an arabian/cape leopard doing the same.

My posts never mentioned anything about the caatinga. There was only one I know of, which was a 30 kg female in that region.

Also, I searched up Brazilian puma weights, which are actually similar to Indian Leopards. This includes many regions far away the Pantanal. They are mostly in the 50-70 kg range for full grown males.


Well, Cape Leopards are reported to kill free-range donkey and occasional adult female elands.

How big are the cattle that cougars kill? Sounds like they are hesitant to kill at a certain size limit, like 180 kg.






While I am not disputing that Indian cows are a bit small, many breeds have a range from 300-600 kg.

 megahvt.gov.in/services/Breed_Dairy_Cattle_India.pdf

So a leopard is more eager to kill a 400+kg cattle than a puma if we are comparing them to areas where they are dominated by other predators.

Weren't both the water buffalo domestic? Anyway, leopards also predate on juveniles and sub-adult wild ones, including cape buffalo, gaur and banteng. Both predate on adult free-range cattle, but never on adult wild cattle.

Ok, but is the average Costa Rican cougar that small? I am aware of North Chinese leopards taking down adult cattle, and their size range is all over the place. For example, Heptner(1988) points out that these leopards weigh 25-48 kg, but a recent handful of leopards weighed 45-62 kg.