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Post by Comfylounge on Mar 4, 2023 14:09:19 GMT
Blah blah blah blah:) Pumas are closer to Jaguars in terms of robustity than are Leopard's my brother, so it's backed by something lol. Your little toothpick greyhound dogs would make a nice appetizer for a Puma, kid yourself not that dog 1 on 1? 2 on 1? Not worth shit against a puma, straight the fuck up. Snap out of it and stop spamming like a dumbass saying this nonsensical bullshit lol. Watch more videos of puma cubs getting mobbed and killed, maybe somehow it will translate into an adult male Puma and be relevant to fuck all. Puma beats the shit out of a dogo ITS A YEALING OMFG IM COPING SO FUCKING HARD RN Multiple dogs beat a puma cub SEE, SEE! Dumbass. And you have no evidence because a Dogo is superior to a Golden Retriever and Border Collie. Greyhounds in the middle. You know how cougars never prey on larger constrictor snakes? Yeah, that's what fighting a bull breed or sighthound will be like for it. A constrictor snake wrapped around its neck. The Golden Retriever and Border Collie kill on an exceptionally large male cougar was just really sad, perhaps we should sweep that under the rug considering it completely tarnishes cougar reputation. Sure, idiot, dogo argenshitto wins when it's cougar baiting. You know nothing about this debate dummy. Merely posting pictures and videos of argenshittos that stumbled upon cougars that had been dead of natural causes for days proves nothing. Those dogs don't kill the cougars, they're simply used to sniff out dead cougars or cougars that are at the verge of death, no better than vultures circling the savannah for signs of weakness or carrion. That's exactly what those lame dogs are, vultures being used by man. And like vultures, they are low lives. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Mar 4, 2023 14:30:03 GMT
This cougar is huge and this is a collie and golden  Sure buddy, in your dreams. Everyone with functional eyes and a functional brain can see that you photoshopped that image. 1 V 1, cougar decimates dogo argenshitto Lol, Bolushi has to hold a massive L for the photoshop. You didn't have time to remove the mini-me cougar laying under the big one's hip or?? Also it doesn't even help the cause to act like a golden retriever and a border collie can kill a puma. The idea is gripping dogs can beat pumas because they are different from other dogs and special. Distinctly totally different animals. Drag other random dogs into it and you actually play into the hands of cat fans and set yourself up for a KO via cases of random dogs being easily killed. |
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Post by Colein on Mar 4, 2023 16:10:03 GMT
And you have no evidence because a Dogo is superior to a Golden Retriever and Border Collie. Greyhounds in the middle. You know how cougars never prey on larger constrictor snakes? Yeah, that's what fighting a bull breed or sighthound will be like for it. A constrictor snake wrapped around its neck. The Golden Retriever and Border Collie kill on an exceptionally large male cougar was just really sad, perhaps we should sweep that under the rug considering it completely tarnishes cougar reputation. Sure, idiot, dogo argenshitto wins when it's cougar baiting. You know nothing about this debate dummy. Merely posting pictures and videos of argenshittos that stumbled upon cougars that had been dead of natural causes for days proves nothing. Those dogs don't kill the cougars, they're simply used to sniff out dead cougars or cougars that are at the verge of death, no better than vultures circling the savannah for signs of weakness or carrion. That's exactly what those lame dogs are, vultures being used by man. And like vultures, they are low lives. Are you the person they were talking about a few pages ago? It's nice to see another Puma supporter but like tone it down on calling dog breeds names. Dogo's are very powerful dogs and are a good opponent for a Puma, even if i think a male Puma would certainly win a fight between the two the dogo is formidable and dangerous, deserves respect for sure. There was an excerpt from some book where they pitted a dogo against a "big fierce male Puma" and they had to intervene to save the dogo, it was a big male field tested dogo as well. All I'm trying to get across is that Puma's are indeed formidable, which seems strange to have to do considering most people already know that they are very robust animals. |
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Post by colein on Mar 4, 2023 16:40:26 GMT
This cougar is huge and this is a collie and golden That is clearly photoshopped lol. A cheetah would be too much for both of those dogs, let alone a Puma. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Mar 4, 2023 17:52:09 GMT
The poll is tied...
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Post by colein on Mar 4, 2023 18:39:38 GMT
As it probably should be, but I'm still taking a male Puma over a male Leopard for the aforementioned reasons, larger forelimbs, larger body size, larger sagittal crest etc. You really should check both animals out at your local zoo sometime, you'll gain a new found respect for both, and will elevate Puma's, because for some reason people have a skewed idea of what male Puma's look like. They have thick necks and big chest sizes just like any male Leopard you'd see. I posted numerous videos, you should check them out. |
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Post by Bolushi on Mar 4, 2023 20:48:55 GMT
This cougar is huge and this is a collie and golden Sure buddy, in your dreams. Everyone with functional eyes and a functional brain can see that you photoshopped that image. 1 V 1, cougar decimates dogo argenshitto No, 3 hunters told me without a shadow a doubt it was real. I can't find the video right now but the video of the kill exists. The cougar died very easily after a valiant war. |
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Post by colein on Mar 4, 2023 21:02:37 GMT
Sure buddy, in your dreams. Everyone with functional eyes and a functional brain can see that you photoshopped that image. 1 V 1, cougar decimates dogo argenshitto No, 3 hunters told me without a shadow a doubt it was real. I can't find the video right now but the video of the kill exists. The cougar died very easily after a valiant war. "The Cougar died very easily after a valiant war" Another oxymoronic comment. You are simply delusional if you think any dog on this earth can "crush" the windpipe of what you completely failed to photoshop as a "180lb" Puma. A 180lb puma would have a neck girth twice as large as those dogs bro, like lol. Pumas tank neck bites from other Pumas without shit happening to their "windpipe" fido ain't crushing shit. You must be trolling at this point, and it is blatantly obvious that you are simply making stuff up, lying and being deceptive by photoshopping what appears to be a 60 lb Puma into a 250lb Puma, which you're trying to convince us totally isn't photoshopped and is actually 180lbs despite it being far larger than even a 220lb Puma lol. And we don't need anything past a 50lb female to kill both of those dogs, guaranteed. |
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Post by Bolushi on Mar 4, 2023 21:03:53 GMT
No, 3 hunters told me without a shadow a doubt it was real. I can't find the video right now but the video of the kill exists. The cougar died very easily after a valiant war. "The Cougar died very easily after a valiant war" Another oxymoronic comment. You are simply delusional if you think any dog on this earth can "crush" the windpipe of what you completely failed to photoshop as a "180lb" Puma. A 180lb puma would have a neck girth twice as large as those dogs bro, like lol. Pumas tank neck bites from other Pumas without shit happening to their "windpipe" fido ain't crushing shit. You must be trolling at this point, and it is blatantly obvious that you are simply making stuff up, lying and being deceptive by photoshopping what appears to be a 60 lb Puma into a 250lb Puma, which you're trying to convince us totally isn't photoshopped and is actually 180lbs despite it being far larger than even a 220lb Puma lol. And we don't need anything past a 50lb female to kill both of those dogs, guaranteed.  |
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Post by colein on Mar 4, 2023 21:12:11 GMT
"The Cougar died very easily after a valiant war" Another oxymoronic comment. You are simply delusional if you think any dog on this earth can "crush" the windpipe of what you completely failed to photoshop as a "180lb" Puma. A 180lb puma would have a neck girth twice as large as those dogs bro, like lol. Pumas tank neck bites from other Pumas without shit happening to their "windpipe" fido ain't crushing shit. You must be trolling at this point, and it is blatantly obvious that you are simply making stuff up, lying and being deceptive by photoshopping what appears to be a 60 lb Puma into a 250lb Puma, which you're trying to convince us totally isn't photoshopped and is actually 180lbs despite it being far larger than even a 220lb Puma lol. And we don't need anything past a 50lb female to kill both of those dogs, guaranteed. Mmmhmmm totally not a fabricated conversation, not at all. "Did your dogs really kill that big Puma" My brother, we can see the original puma under the photoshopped one, it's like 50lbs. Yeah and a puma is just gonna sit there and let itself get choked out, that is funny. As if the dog would ever get itself into such a position in the first place when the Puma is far faster lol. "Size doesn't matter" Every hunter I've ever talked to calls maximum level bullshit. You already outed yourself as a liar when you tried to pull a fast one with a photoshop, but you were so shit at it that even a toddler could tell it was photoshopped so now we're supposed to just take what you say at face value? Nah, your a liar, you cried wolf already. You lost credibility, ain't neither of those dogs done shit to any Puma in their inept lives. You continue to show that you have no idea what the fuck a Puma even is. |
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Post by Bolushi on Mar 4, 2023 21:25:46 GMT
Mmmhmmm totally not a fabricated conversation, not at all. "Did your dogs really kill that big Puma" My brother, we can see the original puma under the photoshopped one, it's like 50lbs. Yeah and a puma is just gonna sit there and let itself get choked out, that is funny. As if the dog would ever get itself into such a position in the first place when the Puma is far faster lol. "Size doesn't matter" Every hunter I've ever talked to calls maximum level bullshit. You already outed yourself as a liar when you tried to pull a fast one with a photoshop, but you were so shit at it that even a toddler could tell it was photoshopped so now we're supposed to just take what you say at face value? Nah, your a liar, you cried wolf already. You lost credibility, ain't neither of those dogs done shit to any Puma in their inept lives. You continue to show that you have no idea what the fuck a Puma even is. Aaah but you can't, those are skin graphs from the golden retriever. |
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Post by CoolJohnson on Mar 5, 2023 9:32:27 GMT
The is some overlap in chest girth, but the leopard has the greater neck and possibly chest.  MALE LEOPARDS (ages 4-6) Weight: 66.10 kg Neck girth: 53.75 cm Chest girth: 79.10 cm (lowest chest girth was 76 cm)  MALE COUGARS Weight: 63.16 kg Neck girth: 41.45 cm Chest girth: 76.16 cm The video you showed looked like the boar was smaller than the puma, so a sub-adult? Leopards have killed 400+ kg Turkmen horses, 300+ kg Caspian red deer, 400-900 kg eland, and free-ranging cattle. Also, most moose outside Alaska are more in the 300-500 kg department. You mentioned about leopards losing to staghound? I posted about a 30-40 kg sub-adult female leopard killing a similar sized Eurasian wolf in Southern Russia. The leopard's dhole kills are bigger than the puma's coyote kills. There are also accounts of leopards killing bullmastiffs, Irish wolfhounds and etc. Those weren't the measurements I was talking about. They were from canada, dunno from what province though, they're on carnivora. 76cm chest girth for a 70kg puma- I hope you understand isn't accurate. It's more around 81cms for 64kgs so the measurements might be off just fyi I can post some indian leopard measurements where they fail to reach 50cm neck sizes at over 60kgs, but I have no need. They are similar in neck and chest if we are to use impressive specimens of both. No it didn't, pause the video when the Puma is on the same plane as the Boar and you can see their shoulder heights are similar, indicating an adult boar, plus the scream of the boar has more bass to it... That's an adult. Turkmen horses are kinda lanky, mustangs are far more impressive imo. Red deer can APPARENTLY reach 300kgs though I see no proof of that. They usually hover around maximum mule deer weight more often than not (200-230kgs) for big stags. And regardless elk are more impressive anyways, bigger, stronger, more dangerous antlers etc. I highly doubt any eland kill goes over 500kgs, their weight is greatly varied. Pumas also take domestic cattle. I wasn't talking about the shiras moose variety, the Canadian subspecies, whatever they are called can reach upto 700kgs and more. Shiras moose can also reach 550kgs, even if they are the smallest sub species, look it up. Bull moose predation is pretty extraordinary, and nothing really tops it imo. A female Puma likewise killed a wolf from the largest, strongest sub species of wolf on the planet that was not only a male- but also larger than herself. (McKenzie vally wolve's were introduced into Yellowstone) so the Puma edges out impressive predation on wolves bar non. Pumas have killed anatolian Shepherds (I think) and have almost killed gamebred, field tested dogo argentino's in one on one fights. Dunno about wolfhound, barely anybody owns them for the Puma to have a chance to kill one in the first place... If a wolf isn't going to be a problem a wolfhound especially will not. The leopard still beats many cougars in chest or neck girths. The leopard has a 48 cm neck girth with a chest girth of 84 cm. There is another Indian Leopard that had a neck girth of 52 cm with a chest girth of 85 cm. There is a 62 kg African Leopard from Zimbabwe with a neck girth of 55 cm and chest girth of 87 cm. There was also one 63 kg Namibian Leopard with a neck girth of 58 cm. Either way, leopards do have more 60-65 kg individuals with 50+ cm neck girths compared to cougars. The chest is debatable. Fair enough. Turkmen Horses are similar in size to Mustang, so whatever. Weren't there max sizes of red deer reaching 500 kg? Anyway, I used the Caspian Red Deer since those are 310 kg, which are similar to the 315 kg for the Rocky Mountain Elk. I did my research, and found this about moose weight in British Columbia. "In autumn, adult cows weigh on average about 340 to 420 kg; adult bulls weigh 450 to 500 kg. The maximum recorded weigh is 595 kg" www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/moose.pdfI went in further and found that this was actually the largest subspecies at the northern tip of British Columbia while being mostly in Alaska. " Largest living member of the family Cervidae (Fig. 1). Mean s of measurements (mm) for adult females of A . a. gigas (n = 23) wer e: total length 3015, chest girth 2013, length of hind foot 815, and height at shoulder 1855. Measurements for adult males from the same population (n = 5) were total length 3055, chest girth 2041 (Franzmann et aI., 1978). Heaviest recorded live weights from A. a. gigas were 490 kg for an adult female and 595.5 kg for an adult male." source: Franzmann, Albert W. "Alces alces." Mammalian Species 154 (1981): 1-7. The moose that cougars encounter in Canada ( A.a. andersoni) are smaller, so the cougar also most likely killed a moose around 400-500 kg, so similar sized to the eland killed by the leopard. The Shirasi moose is surprisingly small. " Male Moose weigh up to approximately 816 lbs (370 kg) and generally grow palmicorn antlers each year. Some males, particularly young animals, may grow antlers that are more cervicorn shaped or similar to Elk (Cervus canadensis) antlers. Adult Wyoming Species Account Page 2 of 9 males without antlers can be identified by pedicel scars. Adult female Moose weigh up to 750 lbs (340 kg)." wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Habitat/SWAP/Mammals/Moose.pdfThere was a sambar deer that weighed at 380 kg (Tamang 1982), so comparable to the shirasi moose. I guess it is a tie for cattle. Ok, but I wanted to point out that a leopard like a cougar can kill similar sized wolves in proportion to their weights. Also here are cases of leopards killing other dogs. Leopard disembowels a bull mastiff x ridgeback hybrid.  Leopard kills Alabai in Georgia. "The photo capture came a little more than a month afte r a Tush herder reported witnessing a leopard attack and kill his prized Alabai shepherd dog." www.caucasus-naturefund.org/the-persian-leopard-is-back-in-georgia/Leopard kills Boerboel in Zimbabwe. "Leopards have ventured into Harare before. In 2009, a leopard killed a Boerboel in the upmarket Greystone Park suburb." www.snl24.com/dailysun/news/international/wild-cat-goes-shopping-in-zim-20150525Leopards are reported to prey on stray Tibetan Mastiffs in China and The Autonomous Tibetan Republic "Leopards are ferocious and bold, and sometimes go directly to villages to hunt livestock. According to the "Garze Daily" report, in Xinlong, leopards have entered the pasture again! It is so courageous that it eats yaks and horses as soon as it arrives at the pasture, and even kills stray Tibetan mastiffs. In just one village, 50 yaks and yellow cattle were killed by leopards in the first half of this year, and even dozens of stray Tibetan mastiffs near the village were killed." www.sohu.com/a/423731951_99945595 |
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Post by colein on Mar 5, 2023 17:54:04 GMT
Those weren't the measurements I was talking about. They were from canada, dunno from what province though, they're on carnivora. 76cm chest girth for a 70kg puma- I hope you understand isn't accurate. It's more around 81cms for 64kgs so the measurements might be off just fyi I can post some indian leopard measurements where they fail to reach 50cm neck sizes at over 60kgs, but I have no need. They are similar in neck and chest if we are to use impressive specimens of both. No it didn't, pause the video when the Puma is on the same plane as the Boar and you can see their shoulder heights are similar, indicating an adult boar, plus the scream of the boar has more bass to it... That's an adult. Turkmen horses are kinda lanky, mustangs are far more impressive imo. Red deer can APPARENTLY reach 300kgs though I see no proof of that. They usually hover around maximum mule deer weight more often than not (200-230kgs) for big stags. And regardless elk are more impressive anyways, bigger, stronger, more dangerous antlers etc. I highly doubt any eland kill goes over 500kgs, their weight is greatly varied. Pumas also take domestic cattle. I wasn't talking about the shiras moose variety, the Canadian subspecies, whatever they are called can reach upto 700kgs and more. Shiras moose can also reach 550kgs, even if they are the smallest sub species, look it up. Bull moose predation is pretty extraordinary, and nothing really tops it imo. A female Puma likewise killed a wolf from the largest, strongest sub species of wolf on the planet that was not only a male- but also larger than herself. (McKenzie vally wolve's were introduced into Yellowstone) so the Puma edges out impressive predation on wolves bar non. Pumas have killed anatolian Shepherds (I think) and have almost killed gamebred, field tested dogo argentino's in one on one fights. Dunno about wolfhound, barely anybody owns them for the Puma to have a chance to kill one in the first place... If a wolf isn't going to be a problem a wolfhound especially will not. The leopard still beats many cougars in chest or neck girths. The leopard has a 48 cm neck girth with a chest girth of 84 cm. There is another Indian Leopard that had a neck girth of 52 cm with a chest girth of 85 cm. There is a 62 kg African Leopard from Zimbabwe with a neck girth of 55 cm and chest girth of 87 cm. There was also one 63 kg Namibian Leopard with a neck girth of 58 cm. Either way, leopards do have more 60-65 kg individuals with 50+ cm neck girths compared to cougars. The chest is debatable. Fair enough. Turkmen Horses are similar in size to Mustang, so whatever. Weren't there max sizes of red deer reaching 500 kg? Anyway, I used the Caspian Red Deer since those are 310 kg, which are similar to the 315 kg for the Rocky Mountain Elk. I did my research, and found this about moose weight in British Columbia. "In autumn, adult cows weigh on average about 340 to 420 kg; adult bulls weigh 450 to 500 kg. The maximum recorded weigh is 595 kg" www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/moose.pdfI went in further and found that this was actually the largest subspecies at the northern tip of British Columbia while being mostly in Alaska. " Largest living member of the family Cervidae (Fig. 1). Mean s of measurements (mm) for adult females of A . a. gigas (n = 23) wer e: total length 3015, chest girth 2013, length of hind foot 815, and height at shoulder 1855. Measurements for adult males from the same population (n = 5) were total length 3055, chest girth 2041 (Franzmann et aI., 1978). Heaviest recorded live weights from A. a. gigas were 490 kg for an adult female and 595.5 kg for an adult male." source: Franzmann, Albert W. "Alces alces." Mammalian Species 154 (1981): 1-7. The moose that cougars encounter in Canada ( A.a. andersoni) are smaller, so the cougar also most likely killed a moose around 400-500 kg, so similar sized to the eland killed by the leopard. The Shirasi moose is surprisingly small. " Male Moose weigh up to approximately 816 lbs (370 kg) and generally grow palmicorn antlers each year. Some males, particularly young animals, may grow antlers that are more cervicorn shaped or similar to Elk (Cervus canadensis) antlers. Adult Wyoming Species Account Page 2 of 9 males without antlers can be identified by pedicel scars. Adult female Moose weigh up to 750 lbs (340 kg)." wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Habitat/SWAP/Mammals/Moose.pdfThere was a sambar deer that weighed at 380 kg (Tamang 1982), so comparable to the shirasi moose. I guess it is a tie for cattle. Ok, but I wanted to point out that a leopard like a cougar can kill similar sized wolves in proportion to their weights. Also here are cases of leopards killing other dogs. Leopard disembowels a bull mastiff x ridgeback hybrid. Leopard kills Alabai in Georgia. "The photo capture came a little more than a month afte r a Tush herder reported witnessing a leopard attack and kill his prized Alabai shepherd dog." www.caucasus-naturefund.org/the-persian-leopard-is-back-in-georgia/Leopard kills Boerboel in Zimbabwe. "Leopards have ventured into Harare before. In 2009, a leopard killed a Boerboel in the upmarket Greystone Park suburb." www.snl24.com/dailysun/news/international/wild-cat-goes-shopping-in-zim-20150525Leopards are reported to prey on stray Tibetan Mastiffs in China and The Autonomous Tibetan Republic "Leopards are ferocious and bold, and sometimes go directly to villages to hunt livestock. According to the "Garze Daily" report, in Xinlong, leopards have entered the pasture again! It is so courageous that it eats yaks and horses as soon as it arrives at the pasture, and even kills stray Tibetan mastiffs. In just one village, 50 yaks and yellow cattle were killed by leopards in the first half of this year, and even dozens of stray Tibetan mastiffs near the village were killed." www.sohu.com/a/423731951_99945595For some reason this website isn't letting me post pictures, it says "can't post a picture over 1mb" and so I try to post pictures that are only 100kbs or less and it still gives me an error message so I guess I can't do that. Anyway, you are hard capping. The first answer on google for the "Canadian moose" claims their max weight is over 700kgs, and many hunters on different forums bring up their post field dressed deboned meat weight for their bull moose and some say 700-750lbs. To get live weight we need to double that and and add 25-30% which would be the max weight for a Canadian moose in British Columbia at around 1650-1700lbs or 750-775kgs, which is what google said. I have no idea where that pdf got such abysmal numbers, any hunter that has killed and weighed the animal themselves will tell you that 500kgs is pretty damn near absolute minimum weight for a Canadian moose. Shiras moose have been claimed by multiple hunters- once again to be around 50-75% larger than any rocky mountain elk, and they are qualified to make these assertions becuase they have killed, handled and weighed both. 350kgs for a big rocky mountain bull elk + 50% and you get about 500-525kgs give or take for a large shiras bull moose. Some hunters say otherwise and say they are similar but many many more attest to how much larger their Colorado (shiras moose) moose is to any elk they've ever seen or killed. Plus they have pictures to prove it. You are greatly low balling Moose weight to try and make it more in line with leopard prey. Not working. forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/thread.cfm?threadid=486478&forum=15Read those responses. Since I cant post pics I'll write this in text form: Measurements for 5 ALBERTA (I looked up the pic again, they were from alberta) male Cougar's: Weight: 64kgs Neck girth: 54cms Chest girth 81cms This was calculated using a general mean average equation, meaning that some Cougar's had significantly larger neck girths and significantly larger chest girths. Each Leopard you posted was a single individual. Now if we compare this to the Kwazulu natal Leopard's in the 4-6 year age bracket we get this: Weight: 66kgs Neck girth: 53cms Chest girth: 76cms So as we can see despite the Leopard's being on average 2kgs larger the Puma's had more impressive measurements A puma from a healthy population- and if the male is of mature age and over 60kgs he should have a 50cms neck more often than not, another thing you need to take into count- obviously is the Leopard's large obstructing dewlap which will inevitably be adding a few cms to any given measurement. I'm not going to guess every time on how much it is adding, but depending the dewlap size it could be adding a good 3cms, absolutely it would. Just keep that in mind, Pumas don't have dewlaps so their measurements are nothing but thick, neck muscle, no loose skin. I found a few more Puma measurements: A young 4 year old male Puma from Texas 62kgs 49cm neck 84cm chest (Would've achieved 50cm neck in another year and a larger chest btw) Male Puma from Florida (unknown age) 68.5kgs 55cm neck 88.5cm chest The male Puma from Florida has a larger chest girth than any Leopard you've provided and a comparable neck size, the Puma from Texas had a larger chest girth than Leopard's that were 15kgs heavier from Kwazulu Natal (4-6yr old) and matched them in their neck girth range (47-60) (the 60cm figure came from Leopard's that were over 15kgs heavier btw.) All in all it seems- to me at least that the Puma is more robust in the chest and less robust by give or take a cm or so in the neck, but it could be null becuase of the dewlap. All of these measurements were taken from Carnivora on the "Cougar v Leopard" thread. Get a 65kg male Leopard and 65kg male Puma and they will be near identical in neck and chest. A huge, massive red deer might reach 300kgs. A large rocky mountain elk can reach 375kgs on rare occasion, and Alaskan/roosevelt elk can surpass 500kgs in weight. Pumas kill adult rocky Mountain bulls and roosevelt bulls all the time. It's not even worth bringing up, they casually slay 350kg+ animals. |
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Post by Bolushi on Mar 6, 2023 9:08:31 GMT
The leopard still beats many cougars in chest or neck girths. The leopard has a 48 cm neck girth with a chest girth of 84 cm. There is another Indian Leopard that had a neck girth of 52 cm with a chest girth of 85 cm. There is a 62 kg African Leopard from Zimbabwe with a neck girth of 55 cm and chest girth of 87 cm. There was also one 63 kg Namibian Leopard with a neck girth of 58 cm. Either way, leopards do have more 60-65 kg individuals with 50+ cm neck girths compared to cougars. The chest is debatable. Fair enough. Turkmen Horses are similar in size to Mustang, so whatever. Weren't there max sizes of red deer reaching 500 kg? Anyway, I used the Caspian Red Deer since those are 310 kg, which are similar to the 315 kg for the Rocky Mountain Elk. I did my research, and found this about moose weight in British Columbia. "In autumn, adult cows weigh on average about 340 to 420 kg; adult bulls weigh 450 to 500 kg. The maximum recorded weigh is 595 kg" www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/moose.pdfI went in further and found that this was actually the largest subspecies at the northern tip of British Columbia while being mostly in Alaska. " Largest living member of the family Cervidae (Fig. 1). Mean s of measurements (mm) for adult females of A . a. gigas (n = 23) wer e: total length 3015, chest girth 2013, length of hind foot 815, and height at shoulder 1855. Measurements for adult males from the same population (n = 5) were total length 3055, chest girth 2041 (Franzmann et aI., 1978). Heaviest recorded live weights from A. a. gigas were 490 kg for an adult female and 595.5 kg for an adult male." source: Franzmann, Albert W. "Alces alces." Mammalian Species 154 (1981): 1-7. The moose that cougars encounter in Canada ( A.a. andersoni) are smaller, so the cougar also most likely killed a moose around 400-500 kg, so similar sized to the eland killed by the leopard. The Shirasi moose is surprisingly small. " Male Moose weigh up to approximately 816 lbs (370 kg) and generally grow palmicorn antlers each year. Some males, particularly young animals, may grow antlers that are more cervicorn shaped or similar to Elk (Cervus canadensis) antlers. Adult Wyoming Species Account Page 2 of 9 males without antlers can be identified by pedicel scars. Adult female Moose weigh up to 750 lbs (340 kg)." wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Habitat/SWAP/Mammals/Moose.pdfThere was a sambar deer that weighed at 380 kg (Tamang 1982), so comparable to the shirasi moose. I guess it is a tie for cattle. Ok, but I wanted to point out that a leopard like a cougar can kill similar sized wolves in proportion to their weights. Also here are cases of leopards killing other dogs. Leopard disembowels a bull mastiff x ridgeback hybrid. Leopard kills Alabai in Georgia. "The photo capture came a little more than a month afte r a Tush herder reported witnessing a leopard attack and kill his prized Alabai shepherd dog." www.caucasus-naturefund.org/the-persian-leopard-is-back-in-georgia/Leopard kills Boerboel in Zimbabwe. "Leopards have ventured into Harare before. In 2009, a leopard killed a Boerboel in the upmarket Greystone Park suburb." www.snl24.com/dailysun/news/international/wild-cat-goes-shopping-in-zim-20150525Leopards are reported to prey on stray Tibetan Mastiffs in China and The Autonomous Tibetan Republic "Leopards are ferocious and bold, and sometimes go directly to villages to hunt livestock. According to the "Garze Daily" report, in Xinlong, leopards have entered the pasture again! It is so courageous that it eats yaks and horses as soon as it arrives at the pasture, and even kills stray Tibetan mastiffs. In just one village, 50 yaks and yellow cattle were killed by leopards in the first half of this year, and even dozens of stray Tibetan mastiffs near the village were killed." www.sohu.com/a/423731951_99945595For some reason this website isn't letting me post pictures, it says "can't post a picture over 1mb" and so I try to post pictures that are only 100kbs or less and it still gives me an error message so I guess I can't do that. Anyway, you are hard capping. The first answer on google for the "Canadian moose" claims their max weight is over 700kgs, and many hunters on different forums bring up their post field dressed deboned meat weight for their bull moose and some say 700-750lbs. To get live weight we need to double that and and add 25-30% which would be the max weight for a Canadian moose in British Columbia at around 1650-1700lbs or 750-775kgs, which is what google said. I have no idea where that pdf got such abysmal numbers, any hunter that has killed and weighed the animal themselves will tell you that 500kgs is pretty damn near absolute minimum weight for a Canadian moose. Shiras moose have been claimed by multiple hunters- once again to be around 50-75% larger than any rocky mountain elk, and they are qualified to make these assertions becuase they have killed, handled and weighed both. 350kgs for a big rocky mountain bull elk + 50% and you get about 500-525kgs give or take for a large shiras bull moose. Some hunters say otherwise and say they are similar but many many more attest to how much larger their Colorado (shiras moose) moose is to any elk they've ever seen or killed. Plus they have pictures to prove it. You are greatly low balling Moose weight to try and make it more in line with leopard prey. Not working. forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/thread.cfm?threadid=486478&forum=15Read those responses. Since I cant post pics I'll write this in text form: Measurements for 5 ALBERTA (I looked up the pic again, they were from alberta) male Cougar's: Weight: 64kgs Neck girth: 54cms Chest girth 81cms This was calculated using a general mean average equation, meaning that some Cougar's had significantly larger neck girths and significantly larger chest girths. Each Leopard you posted was a single individual. Now if we compare this to the Kwazulu natal Leopard's in the 4-6 year age bracket we get this: Weight: 66kgs Neck girth: 53cms Chest girth: 76cms So as we can see despite the Leopard's being on average 2kgs larger the Puma's had more impressive measurements A puma from a healthy population- and if the male is of mature age and over 60kgs he should have a 50cms neck more often than not, another thing you need to take into count- obviously is the Leopard's large obstructing dewlap which will inevitably be adding a few cms to any given measurement. I'm not going to guess every time on how much it is adding, but depending the dewlap size it could be adding a good 3cms, absolutely it would. Just keep that in mind, Pumas don't have dewlaps so their measurements are nothing but thick, neck muscle, no loose skin. I found a few more Puma measurements: A young 4 year old male Puma from Texas 62kgs 49cm neck 84cm chest (Would've achieved 50cm neck in another year and a larger chest btw) Male Puma from Florida (unknown age) 68.5kgs 55cm neck 88.5cm chest The male Puma from Florida has a larger chest girth than any Leopard you've provided and a comparable neck size, the Puma from Texas had a larger chest girth than Leopard's that were 15kgs heavier from Kwazulu Natal (4-6yr old) and matched them in their neck girth range (47-60) (the 60cm figure came from Leopard's that were over 15kgs heavier btw.) All in all it seems- to me at least that the Puma is more robust in the chest and less robust by give or take a cm or so in the neck, but it could be null becuase of the dewlap. All of these measurements were taken from Carnivora on the "Cougar v Leopard" thread. Get a 65kg male Leopard and 65kg male Puma and they will be near identical in neck and chest. A huge, massive red deer might reach 300kgs. A large rocky mountain elk can reach 375kgs on rare occasion, and Alaskan/roosevelt elk can surpass 500kgs in weight. Pumas kill adult rocky Mountain bulls and roosevelt bulls all the time. It's not even worth bringing up, they casually slay 350kg+ animals.A staggering drunk man waking up from getting knocked out by Mike Tyson would still be coherent enough to point and laugh at you for saying that. Surely if it happens all the time we would have a lot of visual evidence but alas, we don't. In my years of documentary watching and lurking, I've seen 1 or 2 bull elk kills. That's it. I'm gonna need you to put up numerous sources for that. Prime bull elk and red deer stags do not have to worry about cougars much at all. Should a cougar make the tiniest of mistakes, if it miscalculates its ambush even slightly and doesn't immediately secure the neck/head with its powerful large male forelimbs for a killing bite... cougar gets ran into the snow and trampled to all hell. |
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Post by colein on Mar 6, 2023 18:52:37 GMT
For some reason this website isn't letting me post pictures, it says "can't post a picture over 1mb" and so I try to post pictures that are only 100kbs or less and it still gives me an error message so I guess I can't do that. Anyway, you are hard capping. The first answer on google for the "Canadian moose" claims their max weight is over 700kgs, and many hunters on different forums bring up their post field dressed deboned meat weight for their bull moose and some say 700-750lbs. To get live weight we need to double that and and add 25-30% which would be the max weight for a Canadian moose in British Columbia at around 1650-1700lbs or 750-775kgs, which is what google said. I have no idea where that pdf got such abysmal numbers, any hunter that has killed and weighed the animal themselves will tell you that 500kgs is pretty damn near absolute minimum weight for a Canadian moose. Shiras moose have been claimed by multiple hunters- once again to be around 50-75% larger than any rocky mountain elk, and they are qualified to make these assertions becuase they have killed, handled and weighed both. 350kgs for a big rocky mountain bull elk + 50% and you get about 500-525kgs give or take for a large shiras bull moose. Some hunters say otherwise and say they are similar but many many more attest to how much larger their Colorado (shiras moose) moose is to any elk they've ever seen or killed. Plus they have pictures to prove it. You are greatly low balling Moose weight to try and make it more in line with leopard prey. Not working. forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/thread.cfm?threadid=486478&forum=15Read those responses. Since I cant post pics I'll write this in text form: Measurements for 5 ALBERTA (I looked up the pic again, they were from alberta) male Cougar's: Weight: 64kgs Neck girth: 54cms Chest girth 81cms This was calculated using a general mean average equation, meaning that some Cougar's had significantly larger neck girths and significantly larger chest girths. Each Leopard you posted was a single individual. Now if we compare this to the Kwazulu natal Leopard's in the 4-6 year age bracket we get this: Weight: 66kgs Neck girth: 53cms Chest girth: 76cms So as we can see despite the Leopard's being on average 2kgs larger the Puma's had more impressive measurements A puma from a healthy population- and if the male is of mature age and over 60kgs he should have a 50cms neck more often than not, another thing you need to take into count- obviously is the Leopard's large obstructing dewlap which will inevitably be adding a few cms to any given measurement. I'm not going to guess every time on how much it is adding, but depending the dewlap size it could be adding a good 3cms, absolutely it would. Just keep that in mind, Pumas don't have dewlaps so their measurements are nothing but thick, neck muscle, no loose skin. I found a few more Puma measurements: A young 4 year old male Puma from Texas 62kgs 49cm neck 84cm chest (Would've achieved 50cm neck in another year and a larger chest btw) Male Puma from Florida (unknown age) 68.5kgs 55cm neck 88.5cm chest The male Puma from Florida has a larger chest girth than any Leopard you've provided and a comparable neck size, the Puma from Texas had a larger chest girth than Leopard's that were 15kgs heavier from Kwazulu Natal (4-6yr old) and matched them in their neck girth range (47-60) (the 60cm figure came from Leopard's that were over 15kgs heavier btw.) All in all it seems- to me at least that the Puma is more robust in the chest and less robust by give or take a cm or so in the neck, but it could be null becuase of the dewlap. All of these measurements were taken from Carnivora on the "Cougar v Leopard" thread. Get a 65kg male Leopard and 65kg male Puma and they will be near identical in neck and chest. A huge, massive red deer might reach 300kgs. A large rocky mountain elk can reach 375kgs on rare occasion, and Alaskan/roosevelt elk can surpass 500kgs in weight. Pumas kill adult rocky Mountain bulls and roosevelt bulls all the time. It's not even worth bringing up, they casually slay 350kg+ animals.A staggering drunk man waking up from getting knocked out by Mike Tyson would still be coherent enough to point and laugh at you for saying that. Surely if it happens all the time we would have a lot of visual evidence but alas, we don't. In my years of documentary watching and lurking, I've seen 1 or 2 bull elk kills. That's it. I'm gonna need you to put up numerous sources for that. Prime bull elk and red deer stags do not have to worry about cougars much at all. Should a cougar make the tiniest of mistakes, if it miscalculates its ambush even slightly and doesn't immediately secure the neck/head with its powerful large male forelimbs for a killing bite... cougar gets ran into the snow and trampled to all hell. It's pretty common knowledge that Pumas kill bull elk with plenty of regularity, I don't have all 100 sources on me at all time to completely overwhelm you with like hundreds of videos, pictures and documented adult bull elk predations but I have a handful of them to share: Here's a female with a fully grown bull elk kill: www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/qtxte6/mountain_lion_guarding_its_bull_elk_kill_montana/A large male Puma killing a very large bull elk, unfortunately he was scared off by the photographer. (P.s notice the size of the Pumas neck) i.redd.it/f2f1uoy7mfe71.jpgPuma clenching up bull elk's neck (after the rut so no antlers) i.redd.it/gg87z33yfxc81.pngAnother bull elk kill: www.utahwildlife.net/threads/mountain-lion-kills-bull-elk.27514/Pristine conditioned bull elk in his prime (as evidence by his massive antlers and large skull) killed by a Puma: www.reddit.com/r/AbsoluteUnits/comments/ip29uq/this_elk_was_killed_by_a_mountain_lion_about_a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_buttonAnother massive prime bull, this time killed by a massive 180lb male Puma: Puma killing a bull elk: www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/n8i38a/cougar_killing_a_bull_elk/British Columbian Pumas are crazy. Their diet includes adult bull elk, adult cow moose and juvenile black bears: i.redd.it/dhwd2itp2e981.pngOver 2% of a Pumas diet in British Columbia is over 400kgs, which can only mean wild stallion and adult moose. Though is it really surprising? When male Pumas in British Columbia are as bulky as Jaguar's? www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/vdlrxp/massive_male_from_british_columbia_this_province/There are many, many, many more. I guess it isn't so so difficult when your forelimb robustity is second only to the Jaguar and you have an incredibly powerful bite that can crush skull. |
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