European badger vs Clouded leopard

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Jan 14, 2023 17:36:35 GMT @ling said:

Jan 14, 2023 17:21:09 GMT @ajay said:

@ling well considering everything that's been discussed I'm still favouring brown bear over E. badger for grappling mechanics specifically. The evidence you produced on E. badgers injurying one another I think comes down mainly to having a better bite and finishing ability than we thought rather than grappling mechanics.

But is E. badger overall a better grappler than clouded leopard? Well according to humerus-to-radius ML ratios clouded leopard definitely has considerably superior grappling mechanics relative to overall front limb robusticity/strength.

E. badger ML%s: 10.04 humerus and 8.03 radius.
Clouded leopard: 9.01 humerus and 10.57 radius.

But the E. badger has a moderately more robust humerus, possibly indicating a greater overall strength of the front limbs. This does go a certain way towards evening out the grappling score.

I mean some weak-arse gracile cats have superior grappling mechanics to E. badger, while the gracile cat still won't come anywhere close to outgrappling the badger due to the total robusticity figures of the badger being way too great.

For example the Eurasian lynx has humerus ML% of 6.67 and radius of 6.07, versus 10.04 and 8.03 respectively for E. badger. In other words the E. lynx has moderately superior grappling mechanics to the badger.

HOWEVER even though the badger has inferior grappling mechanics to the lynx the badger will still easily outgrapple the lynx on account of being overall far more robust/strong.

I'm just looking at the robusticity table I linked in a post above (it's making it so much easier to assess ML percentages and determine patterns now that all ML%s are pre-calculated against their common names). What I'm noticing is the ML radius %s of gracile cats are generally less than their ML humerus %s, while in robust cats the ML radius %s are generally greater.

This indicates that not only are robust cats, well, overall stronger and more robust, but that even relative to overall robusticity robust cats tend to have decently superior grappling mechanics than gracile cats.

Based on humerus-to-radius ML% ratios clouded leopard even stands out for grappling mechanics among most robust cats. Lion stands out equally so with CL, with only jaguar standing out moreso.

My conclusion I guess is that E. badger may or may not be superior grappler to CL. It's probably close. CL is the superior finisher, although the badger is not a poor finisher, a better finisher than we originally thought.

With the CL possibly holding its own in the grapple, combined with its superior grappling mechanics, I think the CL is now is a better position than I thought in gaining a finishing position and complete a kill on the badger.

Hm, I'm thinking of changing my vote to CL now. If you think this decision is in error, can you tell me what part of my reasoning(s) is flawed?

I'm starting to question my size comparison. I made the badger 44i long WITHOUT the tail, instead of with the tail, meaning it should be 35i long if I'm not using the tail, BUT when I compare it to the CL the badger looks weigh less than 5kg smaller. Maybe the photo of the badger I used wasn't from one in Autumn, but it's impossible to tell. The length of the 27kg badger (record-sized) isn't listed anywhere either.

The E. badger is low to the ground. But more applicable to the size comparison picture is it gives up torso height for width. So a side-facing profile of the badger is quite unflattering for what it is.

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Jan 14, 2023 17:57:00 GMT @ling said:

Jan 14, 2023 17:49:46 GMT @ajay said:

Bolushi is the clouded leopard your vote? That makes me feel slightly better in seriously considering CL for the win. I originally assumed the badger would automatically dominate the grapple and be in control, but now the grapple is looking more even. Then if you factor in the CL's finishing skills with both having good grappling mechanics and bite, the CL is looking more and more favourable.

@ling do you think the poll could be edited to say "European badger" and "clouded leopard" rather than just "badger" and "leopard"? Or is that me being OCD? But just to be accurate.

Yes, the Clouded leopard is a better grappler, but the badger will just charge at the leopard's throat or anywhere and be completely unfazed by the claw swipes, also the leopard won't be able to finish the badger easily - since it's a mustelid.

Yeah there is the durability issue to consider which I was forgetting about.

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Jan 14, 2023 18:02:50 GMT @ling said:

Whoah bad gash. And a murdering badger trying to look sweet and innocent lol.

On the durability subject I'm not sure the durability of the badger would matter a whole lot given the CL will be going for a head bite. Although does the badger's incredible durability extend to it's skull?

I've seen videos of big cats chewing on captured honey badgers for ages trying to kill them and looking very frustrated at how hard they are to finish.

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Jan 14, 2023 18:12:56 GMT @ajay said:

Jan 14, 2023 18:02:50 GMT @ling said:

Whoah bad gash. And a murdering badger trying to look sweet and innocent lol.

On the durability subject I'm not sure the durability of the badger would matter a whole lot given the CL will be going for a head bite. Although does the badger's incredible durability extend to it's skull?

I've seen videos of big cats chewing on captured honey badgers for ages trying to kill them and looking very frustrated at how hard they are to finish.

"Their jaws are powerful enough to crush most bones; a provoked badger was once reported as biting down on a man's wrist so severely that his hand had to be amputated."

"The skin of the badger is extremely loose, and has been described as having a rubbery texture.  This makes the badger difficult to grip for any attacker."

www.neebg.co.uk/aboutthebadger.html

European badgers also have tough skin.

[Hardcastle]

While we're gathering pro-badger evidence I just thought I'd throw this out there-

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2023 18:18:38 GMT @ling said:

Jan 14, 2023 18:12:56 GMT @ajay said:

Whoah bad gash. And a murdering badger trying to look sweet and innocent lol.

On the durability subject I'm not sure the durability of the badger would matter a whole lot given the CL will be going for a head bite. Although does the badger's incredible durability extend to it's skull?

I've seen videos of big cats chewing on captured honey badgers for ages trying to kill them and looking very frustrated at how hard they are to finish.

"Their jaws are powerful enough to crush most bones; a provoked badger was once reported as biting down on a man's wrist so severely that his hand had to be amputated."

"The skin of the badger is extremely loose, and has been described as having a rubbery texture.  This makes the badger difficult to grip for any attacker."

www.neebg.co.uk/aboutthebadger.html

European badgers also have tough skin.

So we agree the E. badger is very durable and has very tough, loose skin that is exceptionally resistant to attrition. We also agree E. badger has a reasonable maul.

But how resistant is the E. badger's skull to the CL's skull bite, I assume the CL would be aiming to skull bite the badger?

The CL has very long canines for its size.

And Wroe's bite force study states that the CL's bite force quotient is within the bite force quotients of big (robust) cat grouping, ie impressive. For the record a considerably greater bite force than E. badger.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2023 18:37:48 GMT @ajay said:

Jan 14, 2023 18:18:38 GMT @ling said:

"Their jaws are powerful enough to crush most bones; a provoked badger was once reported as biting down on a man's wrist so severely that his hand had to be amputated."

"The skin of the badger is extremely loose, and has been described as having a rubbery texture.  This makes the badger difficult to grip for any attacker."

www.neebg.co.uk/aboutthebadger.html

European badgers also have tough skin.

So we agree the E. badger is very durable and has very tough, loose skin that is exceptionally resistant to attrition. We also agree E. badger has a reasonable maul.

But how resistant is the E. badger's skull to the CL's skull bite, I assume the CL would be aiming to skull bite the badger?

The CL has very long canines for its size.

And Wroe's bite force study states that the CL's bite force quotient is within the bite force quotients of big (robust) cat grouping, ie impressive. For the record a considerably greater bite force than E. badger.

It will be aiming for the skull bite, but like jaguars it will have to subdue the badger first.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2023 18:31:29 GMT Hardcastle said:

While we're gathering pro-badger evidence I just thought I'd throw this out there-

Suicide by badger was it? I can think of far better ways to go. He was a miniscule 3'6", literally hobbit height. And a porn star! Sounds to me like he was doing well for himself so I'm a leery about the suicide claim. Anyway that's another piece of evidence that badgers can be absolutely murderous when they want to be.

[Hardcastle]

Jan 14, 2023 18:48:14 GMT @ajay said:

Jan 14, 2023 18:31:29 GMT Hardcastle said:

While we're gathering pro-badger evidence I just thought I'd throw this out there-

Suicide by badger was it? I can think of far better ways to go. He was a miniscule 3'6", literally hobbit height. And a porn star! Sounds to me like he was doing well for himself so I'm a leery about the suicide claim. Anyway that's another piece of evidence that badgers can be absolutely murderous when they want to be.

Unfortunately I don't think it's real. I so want to believe, but I think the UK has these fake newspapers with outrageously insane headlines and it's one of those.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2023 18:44:36 GMT @ling said:

Jan 14, 2023 18:37:48 GMT @ajay said:

So we agree the E. badger is very durable and has very tough, loose skin that is exceptionally resistant to attrition. We also agree E. badger has a reasonable maul.

But how resistant is the E. badger's skull to the CL's skull bite, I assume the CL would be aiming to skull bite the badger?

The CL has very long canines for its size.

And Wroe's bite force study states that the CL's bite force quotient is within the bite force quotients of big (robust) cat grouping, ie impressive. For the record a considerably greater bite force than E. badger.

It will be aiming for the skull bite, but like jaguars it will have to subdue the badger first.

True. And I think the CL has more of a chance of accomplishing that than I previously thought. Where before I favoured the badger in the grapple, I'm now undecided. This is the hardest matchup I've tried in ages.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2023 18:53:48 GMT Hardcastle said:

Jan 14, 2023 18:48:14 GMT @ajay said:

Suicide by badger was it? I can think of far better ways to go. He was a miniscule 3'6", literally hobbit height. And a porn star! Sounds to me like he was doing well for himself so I'm a leery about the suicide claim. Anyway that's another piece of evidence that badgers can be absolutely murderous when they want to be.

Unfortunately I don't think it's real. I so want to believe, but I think the UK has these fake newspapers with outrageously insane headlines and it's one of those.

I'm pretty sure every newspaper has insane headlines for obvious reasons.

Anways who do you favour?

[Johnson]

I can see a Clouded Leopard beating any Badger below th Honey Badger.

So I can see a Clouded Leopard killing an European Badger.

By the way, there was a case of a Hog Badger killing a King Cobra.




source: Marshall, Benjamin M., et al. "Hits close to home: repeated persecution of King Cobras (Ophiophagus hannah) in Northeastern Thailand." Tropical Conservation Science 11 (2018):

Interesting that we finally have an official predator for something as dangerous as a King Cobra.

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@hammerhead

[Deleted]

I think the clouded leopard would win due to its better grappling, agility, and deadlier weaponry.