European badger vs Clouded leopard

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2023 15:29:30 GMT @ajay said:

@ling yeah you're probably right. Based off Wroe's dry skull bite force study the European badger (meles meles) is right on par with brown bear for both bite force at the canines and carnassials:

www.academia.edu/239888/Bite_forces_and_evolutionary_adaptations_to_feeding_ecology_in_carnivores_Ecology_

In Wroe's limb long bone dimension study the badger is only slightly less robust on ML humerus % but considerably less robust on radius

% file:///home/chronos/u-b2a8544031ade08dd6b35ce60ccc6787309834e7/MyFiles/Downloads/Carnivora%20Limb%20Long%20Bone%20M-L%20Percentages%20-%20...%20(2).pdf

Which indicates the E. badger is overall a little less proportionally robust than brown bear on front limbs and having a moderate grappling disadvantage.

Making an interpretation based off these robusticity study the E. badger would be almost as strong and robust as brown bear but a moderately inferior grappler, which translates to the badger being a moderately inferior controller to brown bear. But with equal bite.

Yes, and of course their claws are still long and sharp like a brown bear, since they both dig and things alike - although a badger wouldn't be as good of a grappler like you stated.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2023 15:51:12 GMT @ling said:

Jan 14, 2023 15:29:30 GMT @ajay said:

@ling yeah you're probably right. Based off Wroe's dry skull bite force study the European badger (meles meles) is right on par with brown bear for both bite force at the canines and carnassials:

www.academia.edu/239888/Bite_forces_and_evolutionary_adaptations_to_feeding_ecology_in_carnivores_Ecology_

In Wroe's limb long bone dimension study the badger is only slightly less robust on ML humerus % but considerably less robust on radius

% file:///home/chronos/u-b2a8544031ade08dd6b35ce60ccc6787309834e7/MyFiles/Downloads/Carnivora%20Limb%20Long%20Bone%20M-L%20Percentages%20-%20...%20(2).pdf

Which indicates the E. badger is overall a little less proportionally robust than brown bear on front limbs and having a moderate grappling disadvantage.

Making an interpretation based off these robusticity study the E. badger would be almost as strong and robust as brown bear but a moderately inferior grappler, which translates to the badger being a moderately inferior controller to brown bear. But with equal bite.

Yes, and of course their claws are still long and sharp like a brown bear, since they both dig and things alike - although a badger wouldn't be as good of a grappler like you stated.

As you can see by my posting I initially assumed the badger would be a (slightly) superior grappler to brown bear, but I changed my mind when the respective humerus-to-radius ML % ratios didn't bear that out. For what reason(s) or observations do you say the badger isn't as a good a grappler as brown bear?

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2023 16:08:44 GMT @ajay said:

Jan 14, 2023 15:51:12 GMT @ling said:

Yes, and of course their claws are still long and sharp like a brown bear, since they both dig and things alike - although a badger wouldn't be as good of a grappler like you stated.

As you can see by my posting I initially assumed the badger would be a (slightly) superior grappler to brown bear, but I changed my mind when the respective humerus-to-radius ML % ratios didn't bear that out. For what reason(s) or observations do you say the badger isn't as a good a grappler as brown bear?

I take back what I say. Badgers are good grapplers, and can dig 10 ft+ deep holes and are actually better fighters than what I previously thought.

"Aggression among badgers is largely associated with territorial defence and mating. When fighting, they bite each other on the neck and rump, while running and chasing each other and injuries incurred in such fights can be severe and sometimes fatal."

Badgers go for the neck when fighting, he can kill the CL.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2023 16:16:23 GMT @ling said:

Jan 14, 2023 16:08:44 GMT @ajay said:

As you can see by my posting I initially assumed the badger would be a (slightly) superior grappler to brown bear, but I changed my mind when the respective humerus-to-radius ML % ratios didn't bear that out. For what reason(s) or observations do you say the badger isn't as a good a grappler as brown bear?

I take back what I say. Badgers are good grapplers, and can dig 10 ft+ deep holes and are actually better fighters than what I previously thought.

"Aggression among badgers is largely associated with territorial defence and mating. When fighting, they bite each other on the neck and rump, while running and chasing each other and injuries incurred in such fights can be severe and sometimes fatal."

Badgers go for the neck when fighting, he can kill the CL.

Good research dude.

Badgers are very durable, more durable than the likes of CL. So if badgers are delivering "severe and sometimes fatal" injuries to one another during intraspecific conflicts, that raises my estimations of their finishing capability, making me less iffy about siding with E. badger over CL.

If E. badgers can cause those kind of injuries to one another, they sure as shit can to CL as well.

[Deleted]

@ling here are European badger skull and teeth. Better than I thought. I think E. badger is a better finisher than I originally assumed, better finisher than the brown bear.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2023 16:34:57 GMT @ajay said:

@ling here are European badger skull and teeth. Better than I thought. I think E. badger is a better finisher than I originally assumed, better finisher than the brown bear.

They're impressive.

I might even rank him up with the wolverine if it wasn't for the size disadvantage.

[Deleted]

Edit: They are actually very similar in size.  ^

"The adult wolverine is about the size of a medium dog, with a body length ranging from 65–113 cm (26–44 in); standing 36–45 cm (14–18 in) at the shoulder; and a tail length of 17–26 cm (6+1⁄2–10 in). Males range in weight from 11–18.1 kg (24–40 lb), and females 8–12 kg (18–26 lb). Exceptionally large males of as much as 32 kg (71 lb)."

"The European badger is a powerfully built, black, white, brown, and grey animal with a small head, a stocky body, small, black eyes, and short tail. Its weight varies, being 7–13 kg (15–29 lb) in spring, but building up to 15–17 kg (33–37 lb) in autumn before the winter sleep period.The heaviest verified was 27.2 kg (60 lb), though unverified specimens have been reported to 30.8 kg (68 lb) and even 34 kg (75 lb) (if so, the heaviest weight for any terrestrial mustelid)."

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2023 15:04:52 GMT @ling said:

Jan 14, 2023 14:56:51 GMT @ajay said:

Given the weight ranges and overlaps I'm gonna do this matchup on a weight parity basis.

I think this is somewhat like brown bear vs robust cat. The bear/badger is stronger and more robust and more of a fighter, but the cat is a better (targetted) finisher/killer.

Like brown bear the European badger does not target large prey as much as the CL, although at the same time the badger is not easily subject to predation and is quite bully-proof for its size. In this instance I don't think "prey size" strongly correlates to who wins here, although it does have somewhat of a bearing via consideration of finishing ability.

Like brown bear vs say parity tiger, just because the CL is a stronger finisher and takes larger prey in ambush doesn't mean in a head-to-head it necessarily beats the bagder.

I think the CL could take the bagder with a skillful well-executed ambush. But head-to-head I'm very unsure.

Being a weaker finisher the badger would have a hard time finishing the CL even with maintaining a dominant position. I don't think at parity the CL would ever get the upper hand in the fight unless it happened to have relatively high skill-level.

But we have to assume two average specimens in skill and everything else. The badger might not be able to keep the CL long enough to finish it, I think the CL would be able to escape. So yeah not sure the badger would kill the CL. The CL does have the ability to kill the badger, although that's 90% unlikely in a head-to-head. So it does become a bit of a murky matchup and almost impossible to resolve.

Even in a cage where escape is not possible for the CL and they're forced to deal with one another to the end, I still struggle to resolve the fight. The badger is winning the fight against the CL however struggles to make the kill, just chews on the CL. So in the meantime if/when the badger gives the CL an opening, does the CL take a finishing position and execute a killing bite?

This is so hard, a really good matchup. I can't be a fence sitter so will side with the badger. Rule of thumb is favour the fighter, the controller, over the greater finisher. And with parity brown bear vs tiger I probably side with the bear so will also use that parallel as a guideline.

I'd say that compared to brown bear the European badger is a slightly greater fighter/controller and slightly weaker finisher.

Badgers, while not absolutely amazing finishers, still have very large and powerful jaws.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dog-owner-who-forced-pets-5680144.amp

"Three Patterdale terriers owned by Steve Alston, 49, had their noses and jaws ripped apart after being sent down badger setts and filmed as they fought with the powerful animals"

(Only the top photo is related to the quote above)


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Yes, don't believe the news story told by tree hugging faggots though.
Out of all the things terriers take out, foxes, bobcats, rats, cats, snakes, raccoons etc. badger is the #2 most dangerous animal. #1 is coyote, death to all Patterdales and it is known as a poor idea to send a terrier to fight one.
After a year or so of tackling badgers you will have gnarly injuries on your hands but not actual death. Coyotes do kill though.

[Deleted]

I didn't know badgers could grapple at all. Seems like a non-issue.

[Deleted]

@ling well considering everything that's been discussed I'm still favouring brown bear over E. badger for grappling mechanics specifically. The evidence you produced on E. badgers injurying one another I think comes down mainly to having a better bite and finishing ability than we thought rather than grappling mechanics.

But is E. badger overall a better grappler than clouded leopard? Well according to humerus-to-radius ML ratios clouded leopard definitely has considerably superior grappling mechanics relative to overall front limb robusticity/strength.

E. badger ML%s: 10.04 humerus and 8.03 radius.
Clouded leopard: 9.01 humerus and 10.57 radius.

But the E. badger has a moderately more robust humerus, possibly indicating a greater overall strength of the front limbs. This does go a certain way towards evening out the grappling score.

I mean some weak-arse gracile cats have superior grappling mechanics to E. badger, while the gracile cat still won't come anywhere close to outgrappling the badger due to the total robusticity figures of the badger being way too great.

For example the Eurasian lynx has humerus ML% of 6.67 and radius of 6.07, versus 10.04 and 8.03 respectively for E. badger. In other words the E. lynx has moderately superior grappling mechanics to the badger.

HOWEVER even though the badger has inferior grappling mechanics to the lynx the badger will still easily outgrapple the lynx on account of being overall far more robust/strong.

I'm just looking at the robusticity table I linked in a post above (it's making it so much easier to assess ML percentages and determine patterns now that all ML%s are pre-calculated against their common names). What I'm noticing is the ML radius %s of gracile cats are generally less than their ML humerus %s, while in robust cats the ML radius %s are generally greater.

This indicates that not only are robust cats, well, overall stronger and more robust, but that even relative to overall robusticity robust cats tend to have decently superior grappling mechanics than gracile cats.

Based on humerus-to-radius ML% ratios clouded leopard even stands out for grappling mechanics among most robust cats. Lion stands out equally so with CL, with only jaguar standing out moreso.

My conclusion I guess is that E. badger may or may not be superior grappler to CL. It's probably close. CL is the superior finisher, although the badger is not a poor finisher, a better finisher than we originally thought.

With the CL possibly holding its own in the grapple, combined with its superior grappling mechanics, I think the CL is now is a better position than I thought in gaining a finishing position and complete a kill on the badger.

Hm, I'm thinking of changing my vote to CL now. If you think this decision is in error, can you tell me what part of my reasoning(s) is flawed?

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2023 17:14:02 GMT Bolushi said:

I didn't know badgers could grapple at all. Seems like a non-issue.

Based on humerus-to-radius ML%s they should not have good grappling mechanics. Although they should still be very strong.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2023 17:11:38 GMT Bolushi said:

Jan 14, 2023 15:04:52 GMT @ling said:

Badgers, while not absolutely amazing finishers, still have very large and powerful jaws.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dog-owner-who-forced-pets-5680144.amp

"Three Patterdale terriers owned by Steve Alston, 49, had their noses and jaws ripped apart after being sent down badger setts and filmed as they fought with the powerful animals"

(Only the top photo is related to the quote above)


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Yes, don't believe the news story told by tree hugging faggots though.
Out of all the things terriers take out, foxes, bobcats, rats, cats, snakes, raccoons etc. badger is the #2 most dangerous animal. #1 is coyote, death to all Patterdales and it is known as a poor idea to send a terrier to fight one.
After a year or so of tackling badgers you will have gnarly injuries on your hands but not actual death. Coyotes do kill though.

A badger is superior to a coyote imo.

Also what badger are you referring to? American or European?

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2023 17:21:09 GMT @ajay said:

@ling well considering everything that's been discussed I'm still favouring brown bear over E. badger for grappling mechanics specifically. The evidence you produced on E. badgers injurying one another I think comes down mainly to having a better bite and finishing ability than we thought rather than grappling mechanics.

But is E. badger overall a better grappler than clouded leopard? Well according to humerus-to-radius ML ratios clouded leopard definitely has considerably superior grappling mechanics relative to overall front limb robusticity/strength.

E. badger ML%s: 10.04 humerus and 8.03 radius.
Clouded leopard: 9.01 humerus and 10.57 radius.

But the E. badger has a moderately more robust humerus, possibly indicating a greater overall strength of the front limbs. This does go a certain way towards evening out the grappling score.

I mean some weak-arse gracile cats have superior grappling mechanics to E. badger, while the gracile cat still won't come anywhere close to outgrappling the badger due to the total robusticity figures of the badger being way too great.

For example the Eurasian lynx has humerus ML% of 6.67 and radius of 6.07, versus 10.04 and 8.03 respectively for E. badger. In other words the E. lynx has moderately superior grappling mechanics to the badger.

HOWEVER even though the badger has inferior grappling mechanics to the lynx the badger will still easily outgrapple the lynx on account of being overall far more robust/strong.

I'm just looking at the robusticity table I linked in a post above (it's making it so much easier to assess ML percentages and determine patterns now that all ML%s are pre-calculated against their common names). What I'm noticing is the ML radius %s of gracile cats are generally less than their ML humerus %s, while in robust cats the ML radius %s are generally greater.

This indicates that not only are robust cats, well, overall stronger and more robust, but that even relative to overall robusticity robust cats tend to have decently superior grappling mechanics than gracile cats.

Based on humerus-to-radius ML% ratios clouded leopard even stands out for grappling mechanics among most robust cats. Lion stands out equally so with CL, with only jaguar standing out moreso.

My conclusion I guess is that E. badger may or may not be superior grappler to CL. It's probably close. CL is the superior finisher, although the badger is not a poor finisher, a better finisher than we originally thought.

With the CL possibly holding its own in the grapple, combined with its superior grappling mechanics, I think the CL is now is a better position than I thought in gaining a finishing position and complete a kill on the badger.

Hm, I'm thinking of changing my vote to CL now. If you think this decision is in error, can you tell me what part of my reasoning(s) is flawed?

I'm starting to question my size comparison. I made the badger 44i long WITHOUT the tail, instead of with the tail, meaning it should be 35i long if I'm not using the tail, BUT when I compare it to the CL the badger looks weigh less than 5kg smaller. Maybe the photo of the badger I used wasn't from one in Autumn, but it's impossible to tell. The length of the 27kg badger (record-sized) isn't listed anywhere either.

[Deleted]

Bolushi is the clouded leopard your vote? That makes me feel slightly better in seriously considering CL for the win. I originally assumed the badger would automatically dominate the grapple and be in control, but now the grapple is looking more even. Then if you factor in the CL's finishing skills with both having good grappling mechanics and bite, the CL is looking more and more favourable.

@ling do you think the poll could be edited to say "European badger" and "clouded leopard" rather than just "badger" and "leopard"? Or is that me being OCD? But just to be accurate.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2023 17:49:46 GMT @ajay said:

Bolushi is the clouded leopard your vote? That makes me feel slightly better in seriously considering CL for the win. I originally assumed the badger would automatically dominate the grapple and be in control, but now the grapple is looking more even. Then if you factor in the CL's finishing skills with both having good grappling mechanics and bite, the CL is looking more and more favourable.

@ling do you think the poll could be edited to say "European badger" and "clouded leopard" rather than just "badger" and "leopard"? Or is that me being OCD? But just to be accurate.

Yes, the Clouded leopard is a better grappler, but the badger will just charge at the leopard's throat or anywhere and be completely unfazed by the claw swipes, also the leopard won't be able to finish the badger easily - since it's a mustelid.