European badger vs Clouded leopard

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vs.

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I just want to note how deadly of a fighter a badger can be.

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Hardcastle

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Bolushi

[Hardcastle]

Should be a good fight. I don't see the badger killing the CL, but I do see it winning a fight. The CL could possibly kill the badger, but has to win the fight first.

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Jan 13, 2023 21:36:14 GMT Hardcastle said:

Should be a good fight. I don't see the badger killing the CL, but I do see it winning a fight. The CL could possibly kill the badger, but has to win the fight first.

You saw how vicious they were in the video, so I think it wins due to larger claws, strong teeth, more robust, fatty-think hide and because it's naturally more aggressive.

[Hardcastle]

Definitely more durable and a scrappier more willing fighter, but I'm not sure badgers have killed too many animals larger than themselves. So I see it winning but a "too the death" stipulation makes it hard to picture. On the other hand it's hard to picture the CL winning the fight, but if it does it's incredibly long fang's will go straight through the top of the badger's head. But yeah, it probably won't.

[Deleted]

Good thinking for a matchup, will have a look at this later.

[Methane]

I think I might favor the clouded leopard in this matchup. It seems to be larger, and preys on more impressive quarry than the badger does; it's harder to imagine the badger killing the leopard than vice-versa.

[Deleted]

Leopard pierces its skull.

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Given the weight ranges and overlaps I'm gonna do this matchup on a weight parity basis.

I think this is somewhat like brown bear vs robust cat. The bear/badger is stronger and more robust and more of a fighter, but the cat is a better (targetted) finisher/killer.

Like brown bear the European badger does not target large prey as much as the CL, although at the same time the badger is not easily subject to predation and is quite bully-proof for its size. In this instance I don't think "prey size" strongly correlates to who wins here, although it does have somewhat of a bearing via consideration of finishing ability.

Like brown bear vs say parity tiger, just because the CL is a stronger finisher and takes larger prey in ambush doesn't mean in a head-to-head it necessarily beats the bagder.

I think the CL could take the bagder with a skillful well-executed ambush. But head-to-head I'm very unsure.

Being a weaker finisher the badger would have a hard time finishing the CL even with maintaining a dominant position. I don't think at parity the CL would ever get the upper hand in the fight unless it happened to have relatively high skill-level.

But we have to assume two average specimens in skill and everything else. The badger might not be able to keep the CL long enough to finish it, I think the CL would be able to escape. So yeah not sure the badger would kill the CL. The CL does have the ability to kill the badger, although that's 90% unlikely in a head-to-head. So it does become a bit of a murky matchup and almost impossible to resolve.

Even in a cage where escape is not possible for the CL and they're forced to deal with one another to the end, I still struggle to resolve the fight. The badger is winning the fight against the CL however struggles to make the kill, just chews on the CL. So in the meantime if/when the badger gives the CL an opening, does the CL take a finishing position and execute a killing bite?

This is so hard, a really good matchup. I can't be a fence sitter so will side with the badger. Rule of thumb is favour the fighter, the controller, over the greater finisher. And with parity brown bear vs tiger I probably side with the bear so will also use that parallel as a guideline.

I'd say that compared to brown bear the European badger is a slightly greater fighter/controller and slightly weaker finisher.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2023 14:56:51 GMT @ajay said:

Given the weight ranges and overlaps I'm gonna do this matchup on a weight parity basis.

I think this is somewhat like brown bear vs robust cat. The bear/badger is stronger and more robust and more of a fighter, but the cat is a better (targetted) finisher/killer.

Like brown bear the European badger does not target large prey as much as the CL, although at the same time the badger is not easily subject to predation and is quite bully-proof for its size. In this instance I don't think "prey size" strongly correlates to who wins here, although it does have somewhat of a bearing via consideration of finishing ability.

Like brown bear vs say parity tiger, just because the CL is a stronger finisher and takes larger prey in ambush doesn't mean in a head-to-head it necessarily beats the bagder.

I think the CL could take the bagder with a skillful well-executed ambush. But head-to-head I'm very unsure.

Being a weaker finisher the badger would have a hard time finishing the CL even with maintaining a dominant position. I don't think at parity the CL would ever get the upper hand in the fight unless it happened to have relatively high skill-level.

But we have to assume two average specimens in skill and everything else. The badger might not be able to keep the CL long enough to finish it, I think the CL would be able to escape. So yeah not sure the badger would kill the CL. The CL does have the ability to kill the badger, although that's 90% unlikely in a head-to-head. So it does become a bit of a murky matchup and almost impossible to resolve.

Even in a cage where escape is not possible for the CL and they're forced to deal with one another to the end, I still struggle to resolve the fight. The badger is winning the fight against the CL however struggles to make the kill, just chews on the CL. So in the meantime if/when the badger gives the CL an opening, does the CL take a finishing position and execute a killing bite?

This is so hard, a really good matchup. I can't be a fence sitter so will side with the badger. Rule of thumb is favour the fighter, the controller, over the greater finisher. And with parity brown bear vs tiger I probably side with the bear so will also use that parallel as a guideline.

I'd say that compared to brown bear the European badger is a slightly greater fighter/controller and slightly weaker finisher.

Badgers, while not absolutely amazing finishers, still have very large and powerful jaws.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dog-owner-who-forced-pets-5680144.amp

"Three Patterdale terriers owned by Steve Alston, 49, had their noses and jaws ripped apart after being sent down badger setts and filmed as they fought with the powerful animals"

(Only the top photo is related to the quote above)

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2023 15:04:52 GMT @ling said:

Jan 14, 2023 14:56:51 GMT @ajay said:

Given the weight ranges and overlaps I'm gonna do this matchup on a weight parity basis.

I think this is somewhat like brown bear vs robust cat. The bear/badger is stronger and more robust and more of a fighter, but the cat is a better (targetted) finisher/killer.

Like brown bear the European badger does not target large prey as much as the CL, although at the same time the badger is not easily subject to predation and is quite bully-proof for its size. In this instance I don't think "prey size" strongly correlates to who wins here, although it does have somewhat of a bearing via consideration of finishing ability.

Like brown bear vs say parity tiger, just because the CL is a stronger finisher and takes larger prey in ambush doesn't mean in a head-to-head it necessarily beats the bagder.

I think the CL could take the bagder with a skillful well-executed ambush. But head-to-head I'm very unsure.

Being a weaker finisher the badger would have a hard time finishing the CL even with maintaining a dominant position. I don't think at parity the CL would ever get the upper hand in the fight unless it happened to have relatively high skill-level.

But we have to assume two average specimens in skill and everything else. The badger might not be able to keep the CL long enough to finish it, I think the CL would be able to escape. So yeah not sure the badger would kill the CL. The CL does have the ability to kill the badger, although that's 90% unlikely in a head-to-head. So it does become a bit of a murky matchup and almost impossible to resolve.

Even in a cage where escape is not possible for the CL and they're forced to deal with one another to the end, I still struggle to resolve the fight. The badger is winning the fight against the CL however struggles to make the kill, just chews on the CL. So in the meantime if/when the badger gives the CL an opening, does the CL take a finishing position and execute a killing bite?

This is so hard, a really good matchup. I can't be a fence sitter so will side with the badger. Rule of thumb is favour the fighter, the controller, over the greater finisher. And with parity brown bear vs tiger I probably side with the bear so will also use that parallel as a guideline.

I'd say that compared to brown bear the European badger is a slightly greater fighter/controller and slightly weaker finisher.

Badgers, while not absolutely amazing finishers, still have very large and powerful jaws.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dog-owner-who-forced-pets-5680144.amp

"Three Patterdale terriers owned by Steve Alston, 49, had their noses and jaws ripped apart after being sent down badger setts and filmed as they fought with the powerful animals"


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[Deleted]

@ling yeah you're probably right. Based off Wroe's dry skull bite force study the European badger (meles meles) is right on par with brown bear for both bite force at the canines and carnassials:

www.academia.edu/239888/Bite_forces_and_evolutionary_adaptations_to_feeding_ecology_in_carnivores_Ecology_

In Wroe's limb long bone dimension study the badger is only slightly less robust on ML humerus % but considerably less robust on radius

% file:///home/chronos/u-b2a8544031ade08dd6b35ce60ccc6787309834e7/MyFiles/Downloads/Carnivora%20Limb%20Long%20Bone%20M-L%20Percentages%20-%20...%20(2).pdf

Which indicates the E. badger is overall a little less proportionally robust than brown bear on front limbs and having a moderate grappling disadvantage.

Making an interpretation based off these robusticity study the E. badger would be almost as strong and robust as brown bear but a moderately inferior grappler, which translates to the badger being a moderately inferior controller to brown bear. But with equal bite.