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Post by theundertaker45 on Jan 12, 2023 12:34:00 GMT
You have a good point regarding dogs exceeding the size written in their breed standards; the breed standards almost all of the time write something like "a dog is allowed to be larger than the figures given here but everything needs to stay in proportion". I think it would be good if you could make a list of certain well known combative dogs of which the shoulder height/weight is known. Like this 72lbs pit bull called Cody would be a little bit taller than 22 inches assuming standard height/weight relationship, that's already 2 inches taller than the maximum given in the breed standards.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2023 13:01:14 GMT
@hardcastle can be tagged now? How'd you do that? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2023 13:12:07 GMT
I don't know how the eagle can kill the dog in a tussle unless it manages to drag the dog off the edge of a cliff.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2023 13:32:23 GMT
A startling size comparison for sure. I maintain what I said- the bird can kill the dog, I have little doubt (and the size comparison pushes that point home). But it better. That caveat remains. I will also say sizes given for domestic dogs are unlike those for wild animals because they are often "minimums", and sometimes incredibly outdated minimums that you'd never see in real life in the modern day. For example my mother had a staffordshire bull terrier that was lean and shredded and 19" at the shoulder and 52 lbs. The official size of the breed is 14-16" and 24-38 lbs, but those figures are just from a bygone era and you will be hard pressed to find an actual living staffordshire bull terrier in the 21st century that squeezes into that size guide. 16-19" and 30-55" lbs would be more accurate with living staffordshire bull terriers (certainly here in Australia, different countries may sometimes go different directions). If doing a size comparison with staffordshire bull terriers you'd probably find a pic of a 19" 50 lbs dog and then be scaling it down to be a 15" animal and it wouldn't end up being accurate. I'm guessing you probably scaled that pitbull to 18 inches or so? Well just know the actual living dog in the photo is PROBABLY closer to 24 inches tall. It's not just fat petbulls that are bigger either, the shoulder heights of some (not that many) actual champion apbts are known and they're nearly always taller than the "17-19 inch" figure given on breed profiles. I'm looking through some now and it's all 21- 22 inches for regular 45 lbsers, the big boys (many greats of pit fighting history were 60-70 lbs) would surely be taller than that. So ... just putting that out there. Doesn't change my stance that much. "Death from above" is a very real possible outcome here, but the bird will not want to miss like those goldens did on the wolf and dog in those videos. With an apbt there's even less margin for error, where on a wolf or random dog just badly wounding and hurting the dog may be enough to incapacitate it and take the fight out of it, allowing the bird to then improve it's holds and finish the job, with an apbt anything less than a finished kill leaves the dog still well and truly in the fight and very dangerous. I feel like all this talk about gameness in apbts can seem kind of abstract and not really be a relatable thing applicable to reality, until you actually read the stories of the champions. The story of Mayday is probably one of the best, easiest to read and also as a bonus demonstrates some of the sizes attained by serious game apbts (not just petbulls - note tant's cody in the story fought at 72 lbs, others 67 etc). Southern Kennels Gr Ch Mayday ROMMost importantly makes my point clear- if the dog isn't completely dead, the bird is in trouble. The dog is 21 inches at the shoulder. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 12, 2023 14:08:05 GMT
You have a good point regarding dogs exceeding the size written in their breed standards; the breed standards almost all of the time write something like "a dog is allowed to be larger than the figures given here but everything needs to stay in proportion". I think it would be good if you could make a list of certain well known combative dogs of which the shoulder height/weight is known. Like this 72lbs pit bull called Cody would be a little bit taller than 22 inches assuming standard height/weight relationship, that's already 2 inches taller than the maximum given in the breed standards. Yes this cody may have even been about 24 inches tall by my estimation. These pit fighting dogs are actually light for their height compared to petbulls, they have zero wasted weight, it's all functional and they are rangey and lean for their size. I have my "optimal size guide" and have a generic "bulldogs" category, with the following weights- 14" - 25 lbs 16" - 35 lbs 18" - 45 lbs 20" - 60 lbs 22" - 85 lbs 24" - 105 lbs 26" - 125 lbs I still think this is fairly consistent with working functional bulldogs (aka lead-in catch grippers with no "running" bred in), but this doesn't actually work for game PIT bulldogs for dog fighting, which are more lithe and rangey and carefully made minimum weight without compromosing strength/durability etc (though make no mistake, still "heavy" for their height compared to most other dogs). And ofcourse admixed with terrier. I should actually make a distinct category for them. Tentatively, since looking at heights and weights of champion game pit dogs is fresh in my mind, I'd say something like- 17" - 25 lbs 18" - 30 lbs 19" - 35 lbs 20" - 40 lbs 21" - 45 lbs 22" - 55 lbs 23" - 65 lbs 24" - 75 lbs That's chain weight, too. With dehydration and conditioning for "pit weight" the smaller sizes drop about 2-4 lbs up to 7-10+ lbs for the bigger sizes. I will point out that "Cody" uniquely was able to fight at chain weight due to negotiations by the owners. At that point Mayday was so notorious it was hard to get him a match, so Tant (the owner of Cody) could make demands and one was to fight at "catch weight", knowing that Mayday was running very lean after trying to make weight for another fight that fell through (and then travelling and being tired and dehydrated). So Cody came into that particular fight at his normal "chain weight", rather than his pit weight. His pit weight is described as 7 lbs lighter. So 65 lbs (mayday's pit weight was typically 60 lbs but sometimes pushed down to 58-59- his chain weight was quite high - 70 lbs, and sometimes even 75 lbs, but that could be retirement victory laps, not sure- true chain weight should still be lean). Pit weight is an unnatural thing we need not concern ourselves with here, really. Mostly with wild animals we're always talking "max weights" or at best with the condition of empty stomach to keep it honest. Still these max weights would be "big weekend" weights, purple patches of abundance. Not comparable to "fat pet" weight perhaps, but greater than pit weight for sure and probably greater than the "chain weight" of most professional pit dogs (all this I mean relative to a hypothetical "true size"). |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 12, 2023 14:12:44 GMT
A startling size comparison for sure. I maintain what I said- the bird can kill the dog, I have little doubt (and the size comparison pushes that point home). But it better. That caveat remains. I will also say sizes given for domestic dogs are unlike those for wild animals because they are often "minimums", and sometimes incredibly outdated minimums that you'd never see in real life in the modern day. For example my mother had a staffordshire bull terrier that was lean and shredded and 19" at the shoulder and 52 lbs. The official size of the breed is 14-16" and 24-38 lbs, but those figures are just from a bygone era and you will be hard pressed to find an actual living staffordshire bull terrier in the 21st century that squeezes into that size guide. 16-19" and 30-55" lbs would be more accurate with living staffordshire bull terriers (certainly here in Australia, different countries may sometimes go different directions). If doing a size comparison with staffordshire bull terriers you'd probably find a pic of a 19" 50 lbs dog and then be scaling it down to be a 15" animal and it wouldn't end up being accurate. I'm guessing you probably scaled that pitbull to 18 inches or so? Well just know the actual living dog in the photo is PROBABLY closer to 24 inches tall. It's not just fat petbulls that are bigger either, the shoulder heights of some (not that many) actual champion apbts are known and they're nearly always taller than the "17-19 inch" figure given on breed profiles. I'm looking through some now and it's all 21- 22 inches for regular 45 lbsers, the big boys (many greats of pit fighting history were 60-70 lbs) would surely be taller than that. So ... just putting that out there. Doesn't change my stance that much. "Death from above" is a very real possible outcome here, but the bird will not want to miss like those goldens did on the wolf and dog in those videos. With an apbt there's even less margin for error, where on a wolf or random dog just badly wounding and hurting the dog may be enough to incapacitate it and take the fight out of it, allowing the bird to then improve it's holds and finish the job, with an apbt anything less than a finished kill leaves the dog still well and truly in the fight and very dangerous. I feel like all this talk about gameness in apbts can seem kind of abstract and not really be a relatable thing applicable to reality, until you actually read the stories of the champions. The story of Mayday is probably one of the best, easiest to read and also as a bonus demonstrates some of the sizes attained by serious game apbts (not just petbulls - note tant's cody in the story fought at 72 lbs, others 67 etc). Southern Kennels Gr Ch Mayday ROMMost importantly makes my point clear- if the dog isn't completely dead, the bird is in trouble. The dog is 21 inches at the shoulder. Ok... so yeah no doubt this bird is enormous. But do note the above size guide, a gamebred real pitbull at 21" is only about 45 lbs. See here (one example with listing of height, chain weight and pit weight - 21" 46 lbs) Pitbull Bible- Nadia's Wild ChildA big pitbull around 65-70 lbs would be a good few inches taller. For what it's worth, not saying it's worth that much, just saying. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 12, 2023 14:16:59 GMT
I don't know how the eagle can kill the dog in a tussle unless it manages to drag the dog off the edge of a cliff. Well penetrating daggers punched into the brain and through the neck vertebrae/throat at speed from a bomb dive does mongolian wolves in when targeted by tame golden eagles. Eagle claws have some legitimacy as instruments of death (unlike cat claws). At the same time we could well be underestimating the durability advantage a pitbull holds over a wolf. The skin, the muscle, the bone, is all thicker and stronger. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 12, 2023 15:39:34 GMT
@hardcastle can be tagged now? How'd you do that? we figured out it's "admin" |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2023 16:02:00 GMT
The dog is 21 inches at the shoulder. Ok... so yeah no doubt this bird is enormous. But do note the above size guide, a gamebred real pitbull at 21" is only about 45 lbs. See here (one example with listing of height, chain weight and pit weight - 21" 46 lbs) Pitbull Bible- Nadia's Wild ChildA big pitbull around 65-70 lbs would be a good few inches taller. For what it's worth, not saying it's worth that much, just saying. Well the eagle LOOKS significantly larger. But if you take away the feathers covering the body then you'll see a difference. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 12, 2023 16:23:21 GMT
Yes of course, and factor in the incredibly light hollow bones birds of prey have as well ... they are huge at fairly light weights. I have been up close to wedge tailed eagles and it's shocking, you're like "who is that guy standing over there?", and that's a bird of prey 1/3rd the weight of the haast's eagle. So yeah the size comparison is startling and somehow not surprising at the same time and quite plausible.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2023 16:37:36 GMT
Yes of course, and factor in the incredibly light hollow bones birds of prey have as well ... they are huge at fairly light weights. I have been up close to wedge tailed eagles and it's shocking, you're like "who is that guy standing over there?", and that's a bird of prey 1/3rd the weight of the haast's eagle. So yeah the size comparison is startling and somehow not surprising at the same time and quite plausible. Hollow bones are just as heavy as regular bones, contrary to popular belief. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 12, 2023 17:07:18 GMT
Well bird bones are not just as heavy as non-bird bones...
Maybe you mean the actual "per cubic millimetre of bone material", which would be correct, but obviously the hollow part, which weighs zero, is not as heavy as non-hollow parts in the bones of other animals. Birds have light bones, to fly.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2023 17:11:46 GMT
Well bird bones are not just as heavy as non-bird bones... Maybe you mean the actual "per cubic millimetre of bone material", which would be correct, but obviously the hollow part, which weighs zero, is not as heavy as non-hollow parts in the bones of other animals. Birds have light bones, to fly. A bird's hollow bones only reduce skeletal mass by 8%. Your point still stands though. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2023 18:09:04 GMT
I got some pictures of me chilling with some wild sandhill cranes. You'd think they were 60-85lbs.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2023 21:09:40 GMT
Edit - Not herons, sandhill cranes.
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