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Post by Hardcastle on May 14, 2023 23:27:43 GMT
They definitely don't suffer size like gripping dogs do. A 175 lbs LGD seems no less manuveurable or proportionately strong than a 115 lbs lgd.
I've been open to the possibility that the ultimate open weight dog for a dog fight might unfortunately be a huge central asian shepherd with fighting and killing experience. I say unfortunately because I really don't like LGDs, but what troubles me about them is the fact they seem to lose nothing with size, and then if they just have that killer instinct (and many don't, but some do) it becomes a huge problem. I still consider other dogs better for other animals, but dog on dog? It gets very very tricky with a huge fighting LGD.
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Post by Bolushi on May 15, 2023 0:55:44 GMT
They definitely don't suffer size like gripping dogs do. A 175 lbs LGD seems no less manuveurable or proportionately strong than a 115 lbs lgd. I've been open to the possibility that the ultimate open weight dog for a dog fight might unfortunately be a huge central asian shepherd with fighting and killing experience. I say unfortunately because I really don't like LGDs, but what troubles me about them is the fact they seem to lose nothing with size, and then if they just have that killer instinct (and many don't, but some do) it becomes a huge problem. I still consider other dogs better for other animals, but dog on dog? It gets very very tricky with a huge fighting LGD. Yeah, I've heard mention of an Alabai disemboweling another. One that wants to be there, wants to fight and knows how to kill... I think the only grippers who could match that regularly would be the BK and Tosa. And I'd only maybe favor the Tosa, like those Tosas that Musth shown us. Gamebred APBTs I think would get the life crushed out of them sadly, but then again they can prevail through crazy shit so no doubt some of the time they'd impress. I also think such an Alabai would give wild predators absolute hell, including cats in its own weight class perhaps? Certainly no wolf or hyena has a chance IMO. |
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Musth
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Post by Musth on May 17, 2023 6:31:32 GMT
A better contender from the boarhound ranks?  Still might be fighting uphill a little in just sheer power. I think I would favour the CAS more often than not, but of course the Boar hound of that size can win. It depends on their upbringing each experience levels etc. against a fighting LGD I would favour the fighting dog almost every time. I think your right though that the boar hound does much better against other predators like cats and Boar, their gonna straight catch and more likely to straight hold and catch the animal then try to regrip and fight the animal which would allow opening and give room for the cat to scramble and find a way to get a good bite on the dog and causing death. BS a catch dog that is big and strong enough will be able to knock the cat down and hold it (not regrip)and choke it out. Same with the boar hold and catch it the back of the ear and exhaust the boar to death. I think hunting dogs in general are more tested than LGD, and are better athletes. Unfortunately for the boar hound the type of quarry it’s working doesn’t always transfer to fighting against other canines. It’s definitely better than nothing and can help, but it’s not the same as the LGD or more importantly fighting dog testing it’s self against other canines every so often(in the lgd case, fighting dog its specifically bred and used for it). If the boar hound was actively used on pigs, was large, but also had some experience fighting other dogs or predators I might actually favour it against a working lgd Alabai. At least I think it would come down to individuals too. Physically the large middle eastern lgd breeds will have a natural advantage. Naturally large bone structure (bigger than any dog). Huge head and huge teeth, it’s well known that lgd dogs have the most damaging and strongest bite of any dogs. Also their sheer mass and fur gives them impressive defends from damage, much harder to hurt or get a cut on them. Even if equal sizes the lgd dog would have a “weaponary” advantage. But the boar hound would have a stamina and possibly a overrall athletic advantage, also possibly more experienced and hardened if it was tested on both boar and predator(or canine). Tough thing is lots of hunter won’t tolerate any dog aggression. So a lot of hunting dogs get to a point where they won’t fight any dogs at all. This won’t help in the situation. However against a hunting dog that is tested has a few scraps and not afraid to throw down, vs the lgd that has a few scraps in its pack. Could be a interesting fight. It really just depends how big these boarhounds really get to be honest. |
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Musth
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Post by Musth on May 17, 2023 6:38:39 GMT
They definitely don't suffer size like gripping dogs do. A 175 lbs LGD seems no less manuveurable or proportionately strong than a 115 lbs lgd. I've been open to the possibility that the ultimate open weight dog for a dog fight might unfortunately be a huge central asian shepherd with fighting and killing experience. I say unfortunately because I really don't like LGDs, but what troubles me about them is the fact they seem to lose nothing with size, and then if they just have that killer instinct (and many don't, but some do) it becomes a huge problem. I still consider other dogs better for other animals, but dog on dog? It gets very very tricky with a huge fighting LGD. Yeah, I've heard mention of an Alabai disemboweling another. One that wants to be there, wants to fight and knows how to kill... I think the only grippers who could match that regularly would be the BK and Tosa. And I'd only maybe favor the Tosa, like those Tosas that Musth shown us. Gamebred APBTs I think would get the life crushed out of them sadly, but then again they can prevail through crazy shit so no doubt some of the time they'd impress. I also think such an Alabai would give wild predators absolute hell, including cats in its own weight class perhaps? Certainly no wolf or hyena has a chance IMO. You hit the nail on the head my friend. I have a cao and always imagined that a 90lbs female puma would have no chance against a ripped 160lbs dog lol. These dogs are so strong. I don’t believe that my dog or other dogs like him couldn’t just full speed knock the cat down and pin the cat and choke it to death. Also got lots of fur to protect its self from the claws too. Way stronger than the st.Bernard I had as a kid. Agaisnt a real fighting one a wolf doesn’t stand a chance especially against the elite. Maybe a spotted hyena female and huge Tom cougar would be different though. |
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Post by Hardcastle on May 17, 2023 8:39:39 GMT
A better contender from the boarhound ranks? Still might be fighting uphill a little in just sheer power. I think I would favour the CAS more often than not, but of course the Boar hound of that size can win. It depends on their upbringing each experience levels etc. against a fighting LGD I would favour the fighting dog almost every time. I think your right though that the boar hound does much better against other predators like cats and Boar, their gonna straight catch and more likely to straight hold and catch the animal then try to regrip and fight the animal which would allow opening and give room for the cat to scramble and find a way to get a good bite on the dog and causing death. BS a catch dog that is big and strong enough will be able to knock the cat down and hold it (not regrip)and choke it out. Same with the boar hold and catch it the back of the ear and exhaust the boar to death. I think hunting dogs in general are more tested than LGD, and are better athletes. Unfortunately for the boar hound the type of quarry it’s working doesn’t always transfer to fighting against other canines. It’s definitely better than nothing and can help, but it’s not the same as the LGD or more importantly fighting dog testing it’s self against other canines every so often(in the lgd case, fighting dog its specifically bred and used for it). If the boar hound was actively used on pigs, was large, but also had some experience fighting other dogs or predators I might actually favour it against a working lgd Alabai. At least I think it would come down to individuals too. Physically the large middle eastern lgd breeds will have a natural advantage. Naturally large bone structure (bigger than any dog). Huge head and huge teeth, it’s well known that lgd dogs have the most damaging and strongest bite of any dogs. Also their sheer mass and fur gives them impressive defends from damage, much harder to hurt or get a cut on them. Even if equal sizes the lgd dog would have a “weaponary” advantage. But the boar hound would have a stamina and possibly a overrall athletic advantage, also possibly more experienced and hardened if it was tested on both boar and predator(or canine). Tough thing is lots of hunter won’t tolerate any dog aggression. So a lot of hunting dogs get to a point where they won’t fight any dogs at all. This won’t help in the situation. However against a hunting dog that is tested has a few scraps and not afraid to throw down, vs the lgd that has a few scraps in its pack. Could be a interesting fight. It really just depends how big these boarhounds really get to be honest. The biggest working boarhounds (and these are pretty rare individuals) can be 75 kgs on occasion. Usually a blend of something tall (dane or wolfhound) with something burly (typically bullmastiff, sometimes english mastiff). Even this blend usually will turn out dogs that are more like 55 kgs if they are workers, but you get the odd giant that comes out 34-35" and 75 kg, retains athleticism and can still work. There's even a feral boarhound on record that weighed 75kgs when it was shot, this is significant because it means it's authentic size and not just over-feeding. But the working varieties also aren't overfed. My cousin owned a 75 kg wolfhound/bullmastiff which was a serious working dog. And I've known/heard of a couple others. 75 kgs seems to be the "cap". I've not even heard of bigger. Now there are non-working boarhounds that weigh 90-100 kg, but I don't consider them relevant. This would even apply to some heavy boned danes, and bully kuttas (which IMO are a wayward marooned boarhound, but that's a disputed issue) even the english mastiff is technically a long retired boarhound. On the very rare occasion a pure great dane or english mastiff is a worker, they'll be extra lean and down around 70 kg or less. I think a CAS would probably still enjoy a slight raw power edge over a 75 kg working boarhound, and a durability advantage. The boarhound would be more agile and flexible and more game and have better stamina, and probably these would be enough to beat an ordinary LGD and make it give up first, but not a fighting LGD that has the killer instinct that SOME seem to have. Professional fighting dog should always be favoured if its fighting a non-professional fighting dog regardless. In a way I think big strong fighting LGDs are kryptonite for gripping dogs, because the way the gripping dog fully engages it quickly becomes a test of might, and if the LGD is stronger, which they are going to be at these big sizes, they are going to be the one who topples the boarhound over and pins it down. If they don't know how to finish then the fight is far from over (and I've seen this in many CAS fights against even small gripping dogs), but if they do the boarhound will be taking severe damage from very very very big powerful jaws and big teeth. I actually almost think a wolf might be a better match for a CAS, with it's stick and move and "sniping snaps" technique. Speed is a weakness in LGDs (especially CAS), and a wolf can potentially exploit that. A boarhound will always choose not to and just fully engage, because that's what they are designed to do, and this might work against them against a CAS. |
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Musth
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Post by Musth on May 17, 2023 9:44:57 GMT
I think I would favour the CAS more often than not, but of course the Boar hound of that size can win. It depends on their upbringing each experience levels etc. against a fighting LGD I would favour the fighting dog almost every time. I think your right though that the boar hound does much better against other predators like cats and Boar, their gonna straight catch and more likely to straight hold and catch the animal then try to regrip and fight the animal which would allow opening and give room for the cat to scramble and find a way to get a good bite on the dog and causing death. BS a catch dog that is big and strong enough will be able to knock the cat down and hold it (not regrip)and choke it out. Same with the boar hold and catch it the back of the ear and exhaust the boar to death. I think hunting dogs in general are more tested than LGD, and are better athletes. Unfortunately for the boar hound the type of quarry it’s working doesn’t always transfer to fighting against other canines. It’s definitely better than nothing and can help, but it’s not the same as the LGD or more importantly fighting dog testing it’s self against other canines every so often(in the lgd case, fighting dog its specifically bred and used for it). If the boar hound was actively used on pigs, was large, but also had some experience fighting other dogs or predators I might actually favour it against a working lgd Alabai. At least I think it would come down to individuals too. Physically the large middle eastern lgd breeds will have a natural advantage. Naturally large bone structure (bigger than any dog). Huge head and huge teeth, it’s well known that lgd dogs have the most damaging and strongest bite of any dogs. Also their sheer mass and fur gives them impressive defends from damage, much harder to hurt or get a cut on them. Even if equal sizes the lgd dog would have a “weaponary” advantage. But the boar hound would have a stamina and possibly a overrall athletic advantage, also possibly more experienced and hardened if it was tested on both boar and predator(or canine). Tough thing is lots of hunter won’t tolerate any dog aggression. So a lot of hunting dogs get to a point where they won’t fight any dogs at all. This won’t help in the situation. However against a hunting dog that is tested has a few scraps and not afraid to throw down, vs the lgd that has a few scraps in its pack. Could be a interesting fight. It really just depends how big these boarhounds really get to be honest. The biggest working boarhounds (and these are pretty rare individuals) can be 75 kgs on occasion. Usually a blend of something tall (dane or wolfhound) with something burly (typically bullmastiff, sometimes english mastiff). Even this blend usually will turn out dogs that are more like 55 kgs if they are workers, but you get the odd giant that comes out 34-35" and 75 kg, retains athleticism and can still work. There's even a feral boarhound on record that weighed 75kgs when it was shot, this is significant because it means it's authentic size and not just over-feeding. But the working varieties also aren't overfed. My cousin owned a 75 kg wolfhound/bullmastiff which was a serious working dog. And I've known/heard of a couple others. 75 kgs seems to be the "cap". I've not even heard of bigger. Now there are non-working boarhounds that weigh 90-100 kg, but I don't consider them relevant. This would even apply to some heavy boned danes, and bully kuttas (which IMO are a wayward marooned boarhound, but that's a disputed issue) even the english mastiff is technically a long retired boarhound. On the very rare occasion a pure great dane or english mastiff is a worker, they'll be extra lean and down around 70 kg or less. I think a CAS would probably still enjoy a slight raw power edge over a 75 kg working boarhound, and a durability advantage. The boarhound would be more agile and flexible and more game and have better stamina, and probably these would be enough to beat an ordinary LGD and make it give up first, but not a fighting LGD that has the killer instinct that SOME seem to have. Professional fighting dog should always be favoured if its fighting a non-professional fighting dog regardless. In a way I think big strong fighting LGDs are kryptonite for gripping dogs, because the way the gripping dog fully engages it quickly becomes a test of might, and if the LGD is stronger, which they are going to be at these big sizes, they are going to be the one who topples the boarhound over and pins it down. If they don't know how to finish then the fight is far from over (and I've seen this in many CAS fights against even small gripping dogs), but if they do the boarhound will be taking severe damage from very very very big powerful jaws and big teeth. I actually almost think a wolf might be a better match for a CAS, with its defstick and move and "sniping snaps" technique. Speed is a weakness in LGDs (especially CAS), and a wolf can potentially exploit that. A boarhound will always choose not to and just fully engage, because that's what they are designed to do, and this might work against them against a CAS. I definitely see where you’re coming from but when it comes to dog fighting most of the time a CAS is fully gonna engage even the LGD ones. In fact very rarely will you see a gritty bayer in a dog fight I guess. Most of the time they are full on engaging. The LGD just won’t have the gameness or be as good at fighting dogs. I think a top working CAS specimen or a fighting cas should be favoured more often than not. At parity I probably would favour a wolf against a working lgd however. A wolf is still impressive, having small scraps and fights against other wolves, bringing down big game and a fully conditioned and athletic athlete with some nice weaponry. Would still probably favour the fighting CAS even at parity. I know a wolfs bite it great and I know the literature supports it. But I think it might be a little romanticized as well. Maybe a little too good to be true. I want to see a video of a wolf “skull biting” another wolf and killing it instantly like they are said to be able to do. But that might be asking too much. |
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Post by Hardcastle on May 17, 2023 11:14:29 GMT
The biggest working boarhounds (and these are pretty rare individuals) can be 75 kgs on occasion. Usually a blend of something tall (dane or wolfhound) with something burly (typically bullmastiff, sometimes english mastiff). Even this blend usually will turn out dogs that are more like 55 kgs if they are workers, but you get the odd giant that comes out 34-35" and 75 kg, retains athleticism and can still work. There's even a feral boarhound on record that weighed 75kgs when it was shot, this is significant because it means it's authentic size and not just over-feeding. But the working varieties also aren't overfed. My cousin owned a 75 kg wolfhound/bullmastiff which was a serious working dog. And I've known/heard of a couple others. 75 kgs seems to be the "cap". I've not even heard of bigger. Now there are non-working boarhounds that weigh 90-100 kg, but I don't consider them relevant. This would even apply to some heavy boned danes, and bully kuttas (which IMO are a wayward marooned boarhound, but that's a disputed issue) even the english mastiff is technically a long retired boarhound. On the very rare occasion a pure great dane or english mastiff is a worker, they'll be extra lean and down around 70 kg or less. I think a CAS would probably still enjoy a slight raw power edge over a 75 kg working boarhound, and a durability advantage. The boarhound would be more agile and flexible and more game and have better stamina, and probably these would be enough to beat an ordinary LGD and make it give up first, but not a fighting LGD that has the killer instinct that SOME seem to have. Professional fighting dog should always be favoured if its fighting a non-professional fighting dog regardless. In a way I think big strong fighting LGDs are kryptonite for gripping dogs, because the way the gripping dog fully engages it quickly becomes a test of might, and if the LGD is stronger, which they are going to be at these big sizes, they are going to be the one who topples the boarhound over and pins it down. If they don't know how to finish then the fight is far from over (and I've seen this in many CAS fights against even small gripping dogs), but if they do the boarhound will be taking severe damage from very very very big powerful jaws and big teeth. I actually almost think a wolf might be a better match for a CAS, with its defstick and move and "sniping snaps" technique. Speed is a weakness in LGDs (especially CAS), and a wolf can potentially exploit that. A boarhound will always choose not to and just fully engage, because that's what they are designed to do, and this might work against them against a CAS. I definitely see where you’re coming from but when it comes to dog fighting most of the time a CAS is fully gonna engage even the LGD ones. In fact very rarely will you see a gritty bayer in a dog fight I guess. Most of the time they are full on engaging. The LGD just won’t have the gameness or be as good at fighting dogs. I think a top working CAS specimen or a fighting cas should be favoured more often than not. At parity I probably would favour a wolf against a working lgd however. A wolf is still impressive, having small scraps and fights against other wolves, bringing down big game and a fully conditioned and athletic athlete with some nice weaponry. Would still probably favour the fighting CAS even at parity. I know a wolfs bite it great and I know the literature supports it. But I think it might be a little romanticized as well. Maybe a little too good to be true. I want to see a video of a wolf “skull biting” another wolf and killing it instantly like they are said to be able to do. But that might be asking too much. To be clear I'm not proposing the CAS wouldn't fully engage a wolf, I'm saying the wolf might evade it despite the alabai's best efforts to engage. Like the CAS will be chasing it around trying to engage while the wolf moves out of the way and defensively snaps at it. My kelpie does it to my bull arab all the time (and the bull arab actually has scars all over the top of her head from this), and that's a relatively small discrepancy in agility and lateral movement compared to CAS vs wolf. This can probably only go so far, and go on for so long, seems inevitable the two combatants will get locked together eventually. Reminds me of Jack London's passage from "White Fang" about the wolf-dog fighting the bulldog. It started with the wolf-dog evading and cutting the bulldog for a while, but eventually they got locked up and that was the end of the wolf-dog. Now that was fiction, but damn authentic IMO, and like Jack London himself said- "It is a misfortune to some fiction-writers that fiction and unveracity in the average person’s mind mean one and the same thing." Meaning his fiction was grounded in reality, real observations and real experiences, and I think that is very clear with all his writing, including that dog fight. So yeah, I still favour the CAS but just thinking aloud I'm wondering if the wolf's style wouldn't actually give them more headaches (maybe literally) than the gripping dog style, with the gripping dog offering themselves up to the CAS and not asking it to do any "chasing and catching", which is a weakness for the CAS. I do agree with you wolves are overrated, but probably the one thing I maintain reverence for is the damage output of their defensive snapping bite. Probably not readily lethal to a CAS, but certainly damaging. Once they get locked up the wolf won't be able to offer hardly any resistance, but sticking and moving with snapping and slashing bites... could definitely test the durability of the CAS for a while. |
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ophio
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Post by ophio on May 17, 2023 13:40:16 GMT
I definitely see where you’re coming from but when it comes to dog fighting most of the time a CAS is fully gonna engage even the LGD ones. In fact very rarely will you see a gritty bayer in a dog fight I guess. Most of the time they are full on engaging. The LGD just won’t have the gameness or be as good at fighting dogs. I think a top working CAS specimen or a fighting cas should be favoured more often than not. At parity I probably would favour a wolf against a working lgd however. A wolf is still impressive, having small scraps and fights against other wolves, bringing down big game and a fully conditioned and athletic athlete with some nice weaponry. Would still probably favour the fighting CAS even at parity. I know a wolfs bite it great and I know the literature supports it. But I think it might be a little romanticized as well. Maybe a little too good to be true. I want to see a video of a wolf “skull biting” another wolf and killing it instantly like they are said to be able to do. But that might be asking too much. To be clear I'm not proposing the CAS wouldn't fully engage a wolf, I'm saying the wolf might evade it despite the alabai's best efforts to engage. Like the CAS will be chasing it around trying to engage while the wolf moves out of the way and defensively snaps at it. My kelpie does it to my bull arab all the time (and the bull arab actually has scars all over the top of her head from this), and that's a relatively small discrepancy in agility and lateral movement compared to CAS vs wolf. This can probably only go so far, and go on for so long, seems inevitable the two combatants will get locked together eventually. Reminds me of Jack London's passage from "White Fang" about the wolf-dog fighting the bulldog. It started with the wolf-dog evading and cutting the bulldog for a while, but eventually they got locked up and that was the end of the wolf-dog. Now that was fiction, but damn authentic IMO, and like Jack London himself said- "It is a misfortune to some fiction-writers that fiction and unveracity in the average person’s mind mean one and the same thing." Meaning his fiction was grounded in reality, real observations and real experiences, and I think that is very clear with all his writing, including that dog fight. So yeah, I still favour the CAS but just thinking aloud I'm wondering if the wolf's style wouldn't actually give them more headaches (maybe literally) than the gripping dog style, with the gripping dog offering themselves up to the CAS and not asking it to do any "chasing and catching", which is a weakness for the CAS. I do agree with you wolves are overrated, but probably the one thing I maintain reverence for is the damage output of their defensive snapping bite. Probably not readily lethal to a CAS, but certainly damaging. Once they get locked up the wolf won't be able to offer hardly any resistance, but sticking and moving with snapping and slashing bites... could definitely test the durability of the CAS for a while. Considering that in the same book a female "lynx" (bobcat) defeated a female wolfdog and a male wolf, i dont think jack London really is a good source of info. Not that i disagree with how gripper vs wolf will go |
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Post by Hardcastle on May 17, 2023 14:29:04 GMT
To be clear I'm not proposing the CAS wouldn't fully engage a wolf, I'm saying the wolf might evade it despite the alabai's best efforts to engage. Like the CAS will be chasing it around trying to engage while the wolf moves out of the way and defensively snaps at it. My kelpie does it to my bull arab all the time (and the bull arab actually has scars all over the top of her head from this), and that's a relatively small discrepancy in agility and lateral movement compared to CAS vs wolf. This can probably only go so far, and go on for so long, seems inevitable the two combatants will get locked together eventually. Reminds me of Jack London's passage from "White Fang" about the wolf-dog fighting the bulldog. It started with the wolf-dog evading and cutting the bulldog for a while, but eventually they got locked up and that was the end of the wolf-dog. Now that was fiction, but damn authentic IMO, and like Jack London himself said- "It is a misfortune to some fiction-writers that fiction and unveracity in the average person’s mind mean one and the same thing." Meaning his fiction was grounded in reality, real observations and real experiences, and I think that is very clear with all his writing, including that dog fight. So yeah, I still favour the CAS but just thinking aloud I'm wondering if the wolf's style wouldn't actually give them more headaches (maybe literally) than the gripping dog style, with the gripping dog offering themselves up to the CAS and not asking it to do any "chasing and catching", which is a weakness for the CAS. I do agree with you wolves are overrated, but probably the one thing I maintain reverence for is the damage output of their defensive snapping bite. Probably not readily lethal to a CAS, but certainly damaging. Once they get locked up the wolf won't be able to offer hardly any resistance, but sticking and moving with snapping and slashing bites... could definitely test the durability of the CAS for a while. Considering that in the same book a female "lynx" (bobcat) defeated a female wolfdog and a male wolf, i dont think jack London really is a good source of info. Not that i disagree with how gripper vs wolf will go Didn't the lynx lose to white fang's mother and later white fang fought a different lynx and won as well? Definitely the performances of the lynxes were too good though. Both fights were epic and the lynxes were portrayed like excellent fighters. I think he's very good and usually has an undercurrent of primal authenticity where he clearly has seen a lot and paid close attention to the functional dynamics of animals and people in many different scenarios, but cat overrating is a hell of a drug. They are designed to either go unseen, OR if they are seen impress upon other animals that they are completely crazy buzz-saws of explosive menace which shouldn't be tangled with, and it largely works on most animals and people. Ironically they try so hard to impress specifically because they loathe fighting, it's a fight avoidance strategy, but it leaves people under the impression they are supreme fighters. And yeah it seems Jack London is among the fooled, however still I would argue there are many aspects in those fights that did ring true, even though the lynxes did too well his descriptions of their behaviours and tactics were accurate. |
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ophio
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Post by ophio on May 17, 2023 14:55:27 GMT
Considering that in the same book a female "lynx" (bobcat) defeated a female wolfdog and a male wolf, i dont think jack London really is a good source of info. Not that i disagree with how gripper vs wolf will go Didn't the lynx lose to white fang's mother and later white fang fought a different lynx and won as well? Definitely the performances of the lynxes were too good though. Both fights were epic and the lynxes were portrayed like excellent fighters. I think he's very good and usually has an undercurrent of primal authenticity where he clearly has seen a lot and paid close attention to the functional dynamics of animals and people in many different scenarios, but cat overrating is a hell of a drug. They are designed to either go unseen, OR if they are seen impress upon other animals that they are completely crazy buzz-saws of explosive menace which shouldn't be tangled with, and it largely works on most animals and people. Ironically they try so hard to impress specifically because they loathe fighting, it's a fight avoidance strategy, but it leaves people under the impression they are supreme fighters. And yeah it seems Jack London is among the fooled, however still I would argue there are many aspects in those fights that did ring true, even though the lynxes did too well his descriptions of their behaviours and tactics were accurate. Been a while since i read white fang but i remember lynx killed the dad wolf in a food dispute and then fought mom wolf and a pup-subadult white fang where wolf killed the lynx but died from the injuries soon after. I had the impression the lynx was supposed to be a better fighter than both mom and dad wolf considering white fang had a good hold on the lynxs leg in its battle against mom |
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Musth
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Post by Musth on May 17, 2023 18:31:51 GMT
Considering that in the same book a female "lynx" (bobcat) defeated a female wolfdog and a male wolf, i dont think jack London really is a good source of info. Not that i disagree with how gripper vs wolf will go Didn't the lynx lose to white fang's mother and later white fang fought a different lynx and won as well? Definitely the performances of the lynxes were too good though. Both fights were epic and the lynxes were portrayed like excellent fighters. I think he's very good and usually has an undercurrent of primal authenticity where he clearly has seen a lot and paid close attention to the functional dynamics of animals and people in many different scenarios, but cat overrating is a hell of a drug. They are designed to either go unseen, OR if they are seen impress upon other animals that they are completely crazy buzz-saws of explosive menace which shouldn't be tangled with, and it largely works on most animals and people. Ironically they try so hard to impress specifically because they loathe fighting, it's a fight avoidance strategy, but it leaves people under the impression they are supreme fighters. And yeah it seems Jack London is among the fooled, however still I would argue there are many aspects in those fights that did ring true, even though the lynxes did too well his descriptions of their behaviours and tactics were accurate. Well I shared that Briarwoods experiences on the jagd vs bobcat I posted. If a dog stays back and bays the cat has the best chances to do damage. A wolf isn’t a straight catchdog they are more likely to do some aggressive baying with hard snaps. Try that against a cat and of course a cat has the opportunity to do some serious damage. So a wolf actually isn’t the best suited to fighting cats imo. Not saying I’d favour a lynx against a wolf more often or not. But they definitely do have a chance to do some damage. |
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Post by Bolushi on May 17, 2023 22:28:15 GMT
Didn't the lynx lose to white fang's mother and later white fang fought a different lynx and won as well? Definitely the performances of the lynxes were too good though. Both fights were epic and the lynxes were portrayed like excellent fighters. I think he's very good and usually has an undercurrent of primal authenticity where he clearly has seen a lot and paid close attention to the functional dynamics of animals and people in many different scenarios, but cat overrating is a hell of a drug. They are designed to either go unseen, OR if they are seen impress upon other animals that they are completely crazy buzz-saws of explosive menace which shouldn't be tangled with, and it largely works on most animals and people. Ironically they try so hard to impress specifically because they loathe fighting, it's a fight avoidance strategy, but it leaves people under the impression they are supreme fighters. And yeah it seems Jack London is among the fooled, however still I would argue there are many aspects in those fights that did ring true, even though the lynxes did too well his descriptions of their behaviours and tactics were accurate. Been a while since i read white fang but i remember lynx killed the dad wolf in a food dispute and then fought mom wolf and a pup-subadult white fang where wolf killed the lynx but died from the injuries soon after. I had the impression the lynx was supposed to be a better fighter than both mom and dad wolf considering white fang had a good hold on the lynxs leg in its battle against mom Jack London IS at least a good source for bulldog vs wolfdog/wolf. Jack London lived that life where people fought those animals, and he definitely saw bulldog vs wolfdog (at least) with his own 2 eyes or something to give him an exact perfect idea of what would happen. Jack London comes from San Francisco, bulldog (and wolfdog- they were kind of a big thing too until time passed and people started realizing wolfdogs are pretty shit compared to bulldogs) vs animal X was a common theme. San Francisco is where the bulldog fought the jaguar and certainly also fought a bunch of other stuff. He was there, he knows. I know that he knows about THAT stuff... The lynx stuff was probably made up though. It's fiction, but some of it is unmistakably something he would know about. I'm also sure he knew about lynxes but didn't actually see the lynx compete with the real deal animals. |
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Post by Hardcastle on May 17, 2023 22:30:40 GMT
Didn't the lynx lose to white fang's mother and later white fang fought a different lynx and won as well? Definitely the performances of the lynxes were too good though. Both fights were epic and the lynxes were portrayed like excellent fighters. I think he's very good and usually has an undercurrent of primal authenticity where he clearly has seen a lot and paid close attention to the functional dynamics of animals and people in many different scenarios, but cat overrating is a hell of a drug. They are designed to either go unseen, OR if they are seen impress upon other animals that they are completely crazy buzz-saws of explosive menace which shouldn't be tangled with, and it largely works on most animals and people. Ironically they try so hard to impress specifically because they loathe fighting, it's a fight avoidance strategy, but it leaves people under the impression they are supreme fighters. And yeah it seems Jack London is among the fooled, however still I would argue there are many aspects in those fights that did ring true, even though the lynxes did too well his descriptions of their behaviours and tactics were accurate. Well I shared that Briarwoods experiences on the jagd vs bobcat I posted. If a dog stays back and bays the cat has the best chances to do damage. A wolf isn’t a straight catchdog they are more likely to do some aggressive baying with hard snaps. Try that against a cat and of course a cat has the opportunity to do some serious damage. So a wolf actually isn’t the best suited to fighting cats imo. Not saying I’d favour a lynx against a wolf more often or not. But they definitely do have a chance to do some damage. I totally agree, a wolf is very very very badly suited to fighting a cat. Standing back and giving a cat space and time to breathe and calculate an assault is playing right into its hands. Being scared to be hurt is also playing right into their hands. And actually, there has been a case or two of a lynx bettering a wolf, I thought maybe even one where a wolf was killed by a Eurasian lynx? My memory of it is vague and I remember it causing a lot of fiery debate and controversy. Might have been something wrong with the wolf, can't remember. |
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Post by Hardcastle on May 17, 2023 22:36:58 GMT
Been a while since i read white fang but i remember lynx killed the dad wolf in a food dispute and then fought mom wolf and a pup-subadult white fang where wolf killed the lynx but died from the injuries soon after. I had the impression the lynx was supposed to be a better fighter than both mom and dad wolf considering white fang had a good hold on the lynxs leg in its battle against mom Jack London IS at least a good source for bulldog vs wolfdog/wolf. Jack London lived that life where people fought those animals, and he definitely saw bulldog vs wolfdog (at least) with his own 2 eyes or something to give him an exact perfect idea of what would happen. Jack London comes from San Francisco, bulldog (and wolfdog- they were kind of a big thing too until time passed and people started realizing wolfdogs are pretty shit compared to bulldogs) vs animal X was a common theme. San Francisco is where the bulldog fought the jaguar and certainly also fought a bunch of other stuff. He was there, he knows. I know that he knows about THAT stuff... The lynx stuff was probably made up though. It's fiction, but some of it is unmistakably something he would know about. I'm also sure he knew about lynxes but didn't actually see the lynx compete with the real deal animals. He did a lot of stuff, worked really rugged jobs in far flung places like oyster pirate and sealer, where drinking and organising animal fights is what they did for fun between shifts. He also sailed to the solomon islands and saw slave dogs in action. I think he's the best writer, even if it wasn't about animals, so I read a lot of his stuff including the non-fiction. Most of it is free on gutenberg. |
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ophio
Ruminant
Posts: 230
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Post by ophio on May 17, 2023 22:41:32 GMT
Been a while since i read white fang but i remember lynx killed the dad wolf in a food dispute and then fought mom wolf and a pup-subadult white fang where wolf killed the lynx but died from the injuries soon after. I had the impression the lynx was supposed to be a better fighter than both mom and dad wolf considering white fang had a good hold on the lynxs leg in its battle against mom Jack London IS at least a good source for bulldog vs wolfdog/wolf. Jack London lived that life where people fought those animals, and he definitely saw bulldog vs wolfdog (at least) with his own 2 eyes or something to give him an exact perfect idea of what would happen. Jack London comes from San Francisco, bulldog (and wolfdog- they were kind of a big thing too until time passed and people started realizing wolfdogs are pretty shit compared to bulldogs) vs animal X was a common theme. San Francisco is where the bulldog fought the jaguar and certainly also fought a bunch of other stuff. He was there, he knows. I know that he knows about THAT stuff... The lynx stuff was probably made up though. It's fiction, but some of it is unmistakably something he would know about. I'm also sure he knew about lynxes but didn't actually see the lynx compete with the real deal animals. Idk if he lived in california he'd def know about bobcats too. They are common as heck in california even now. Many people in his time kept them as pets. I think bobcat vs dog fights happened as well. And there is a record of a bulldog beating a same sized bobcat in a fight |
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