Alano Español vs American Black Bear

[Deleted]

Dec 31, 2022 11:10:59 GMT Hardcastle said:

Yeah it can't really do much damage (even though there was a case where a chained up pitbull tore off the lower jaw of a juvenile black bear that came over and messed with it- I'd say that was a pretty freakish incident).
My only argument is the dog could surprise you with it's ability to handle and control a bear in a close quarter struggle without dying. Just because the dog can't kill the bear, doesn't automatically mean the bear kills the dog immediately by default. It doesn't, gripping dogs can handle bears (within reason) fairly safely by grabbing their face and then pulling the bear off balance and manuevering their own body out of harm's way strategically. They have an extensive history of dealing with bears and it turns out they are good at it. I agree however they can't kill a bear.

When the dog latches onto the bear, the bear will use its claws to badly wound the dog.

[Hardcastle]

You'd think so, but no-

Dec 21, 2022 15:25:34 GMT Hardcastle said:

Dec 21, 2022 5:29:07 GMT Johnson said:

Found this on Carnivora.net.

"larger English dogs, such as the bloodhound, mastiff and bull-mastiff... besides which they will go to close quarters with tigers, leopard and bears, and are so killed or maimed for life"

Spirit of the Times and the New York Sportsman, Volumes 9-11

Alternatively-

These dogs were for a great many years, from the English occupation of Bordeaux onwards, bred for encounters in the arena, being pitted against each other or against the bull, the bear, or the ass, and even as late as 1906 these encounters occasionally took place. Matador du Midi, a young fawn dog which Mr. H.C. Brooke imported in 1895, was of the old fighting strain, and amongst his ancestors were; Caporal (for seven years champion of the Pyrenees), Megre (a Bitch which had been pitted against bear, wolf, and Hyena) and Hercules (which was finally killed by a jaguar in a terrific battle in San Francisco). When it was 18 months old Mr. Brooke gave Matador du Midi a "jump" against a big Russian bear, and the dog showed great science in keeping his body as much sideways as possible, to avoid the bear's hug, and threw the bear fairly and squarely on the grass several times.

THE EVOLUTION OF THE BULLDOG - A HISTORICAL SURVEY By R. H. Voss - Dec. 15, 1933

and-

Many people speak of cruelty and pain in the abstract, without reference to the circumstances of the cases to which they apply the terms. Some would think nothing of keeping a bull-dog chained up for months, but would decry exposing it to the chance of being knocked about by a wild animal. Any one who understands the nature of such dogs knows that in excitement they do not feel pain, whilst depriving them of liberty and exercise is a real infliction to them. Their natural instincts find the greatest pleasure in fighting and bloodshed. Can any one doubt which of the two the dogs themselves would choose, to be loosed at a beast, or be tied up in a kennel? If so, he knows nothing about the disposition of bull-dogs.
It is remarkable how little injury the dogs sustain in this rough style of hunting. The simultaneousness of their attack overpowers a bear or panther, and prevents its paying attention to any dog in particular. The bull-dog's habit of fixing on to the nose or cheek of a foe renders the animal it seizes unable to do much injury by biting when once it has been seized. Then, though bears and panthers can inflict a severe blow when the object struck is at arm's-length, when it is very close their paws and claws are comparatively powerless. A bear's claws are so blunt that when a dog is holding him he cannot tear his skin, or make any wound, though at arm's- length he might cuff him soundly ; and a panther, though his claws are so sharp, can do little more harm. A bear never hugs the dogs ; his nose makes a splendid hold ; and from what I have seen, I consider two really good bull-dogs a complete match for any bear, if they get a fair chance of flying at him together. Once seized by the snout a bear is a helpless crea- ture, and does little but roll over and howl.

Thirteen years among the wild beasts of India

Note earlier in the book George P Sanderson mentions having NO bulldog over about 45 lbs.

[Johnson]

Dec 30, 2022 18:34:40 GMT @ling said:

This is a mismatch imo.

Black bears have held their own against grizzlies.

Yes.

The dog is overrated.

[Hardcastle]

One thing we can't do is punish dogs for the fact some other animal did badly against some other animal. Carnivora (*spit) do this all the time. "well even bears lose to spanish bulls sometimes, so... fucking no way an alano espanol can last even one second", well fuck you, because the fact is alano espanols are 100% designed to go head to head with spanish bulls and control them totally while remaining perfectly safe. So ... you're an idiot. Don't assume a bear can handle a spanish bull better than a tool that is specifically designed to masterfully handle spanish bulls, lest you look like a fucking moron.
To some extent this is also true for bears. I totally understand how it seems silly. A bear seems way way way overpowered for any dog, I get that, BUT if you are educated on dog history you just can't ignore the fact that bears are something that dogs can manage remarkably well. "Bulldogs" could just as easily be called beardogs. Before bears became extremely rare, due to dogs, it was totally neck and neck and they were referred to as both. "Bull breeds" became so named because in england bears went extinct (thanks to bulldogs) around 500 AD (and because boars became extinct around 1300-1500 ad- bulls were simply all that was left, hence "bulldogs"), but in germany where bears held on longer they had "bull biters" and "bear biters" as equal closely related but mildly different things until much more recently. The bear specialists were slightly larger than the bull specialists, but smaller than the boar specialists. Bears were just another beast that catch dogs could skillfully control using their lugging technique. No this doesn't mean dogs could "kill bears", but do understand this also means that bears couldn't easily kill these dogs. It means these dogs could lug and subjugate bears using their gripping hold and associated footwork without being killed. Refer again to my quotes if you are confused.

[Deleted]

How would the dog KILL the bear though? Perhaps through a prolonged snout bite? I can’t think of any other method.

[Hardcastle]

It can't kill the bear. That is not what I'm arguing.

[Deleted]

Dec 31, 2022 18:04:00 GMT Hardcastle said:

It can't kill the bear. That is not what I'm arguing.

Then why was this match-up made?

[Deleted]

Oh… I should have read the previous posts.

[Hardcastle]

Well I didn't make it. BUT I also do like clarifying the reality of the match up. The obsession with an imaginary "fight to the death" often isn't realistic. In real life when a working alano encounters a black bear, don't be too surprised when the dog makes it look silly. That's all I'm saying.

[Deleted]

Dec 31, 2022 18:13:44 GMT Hardcastle said:

Well I didn't make it. BUT I also do like clarifying the reality of the match up. The obsession with an imaginary "fight to the death" often isn't realistic. In real life when a working alano encounters a black bear, don't be too surprised when the dog makes it look silly. That's all I'm saying.

Yeah… but they ARE fighting to death - as is the case with 99.9% of match-ups made.

Also Black bears are extremely timid animals and are easily driven off by much smaller animals.

[Hardcastle]

Well exactly, on the last part. And that's why the former part bothers me. Why are we attributing black bears with the mentality of an animal that "fights to the death" for the sake of it? It's kind of stupid. It won't. A real encounter won't work like that.
For the last 20+ years I've been debating these topics and that has always been a bug bear of mine. By making a "fight to the death" stipulation, we are gifting the real world loser with a focus and mentality it doesn't really possess.

[Johnson]

Dec 31, 2022 17:44:25 GMT Hardcastle said:

One thing we can't do is punish dogs for the fact some other animal did badly against some other animal. Carnivora (*spit) do this all the time. "well even bears lose to spanish bulls sometimes, so... fucking no way an alano espanol can last even one second", well fuck you, because the fact is alano espanols are 100% designed to go head to head with spanish bulls and control them totally while remaining perfectly safe. So ... you're an idiot. Don't assume a bear can handle a spanish bull better than a tool that is specifically designed to masterfully handle spanish bulls, lest you look like a fucking moron.
To some extent this is also true for bears. I totally understand how it seems silly. A bear seems way way way overpowered for any dog, I get that, BUT if you are educated on dog history you just can't ignore the fact that bears are something that dogs can manage remarkably well. "Bulldogs" could just as easily be called beardogs. Before bears became extremely rare, due to dogs, it was totally neck and neck and they were referred to as both. "Bull breeds" became so named because in england bears went extinct (thanks to bulldogs) around 500 AD (and because boars became extinct around 1300-1500 ad- bulls were simply all that was left, hence "bulldogs"), but in germany where bears held on longer they had "bull biters" and "bear biters" as equal closely related but mildly different things until much more recently. The bear specialists were slightly larger than the bull specialists, but smaller than the boar specialists. Bears were just another beast that catch dogs could skillfully control using their lugging technique. No this doesn't mean dogs could "kill bears", but do understand this also means that bears couldn't easily kill these dogs. It means these dogs could lug and subjugate bears using their gripping hold and associated footwork without being killed. Refer again to my quotes if you are confused.

The dog attacking a big animal vs a Bear is like a boxer vs a jiu jujitsu/grappling fighter.

A boxer could take down a large man with one punch or even knock out several men, but would lose to a good grappler. On the other hand, a good grappler would not do well against many men or could even get overpowered by a large man. However, a good grappler would subdue a similar sized boxer.

A dog could hold onto a large quarry that would pose trouble for a Bear or a Cat, but a Bear or Cat would beat a dog in a one-on-one fight.

[Hardcastle]

I agree, to some extent. There's no question whatsoever that alanos are better than black bears at dealing with large ungulates. Disproportionately so relative to their general qualities and abilities.
However... a little weirdly, such dogs are also good at dealing with bears.

Where things change dramatically would be a lion, for example, or a jaguar or even a really big leopard or puma. I think a big black bear could potentially fuck up all those animals. A brown bear definitely could. The dog meanwhile stands no chance. But it's better than the bear at dealing with cattle, and frankly is kind of good at dealing with the bear itself according to all indications.

[Deleted]

Dec 31, 2022 18:21:34 GMT Hardcastle said:

Well exactly, on the last part. And that's why the former part bothers me. Why are we attributing black bears with the mentality of an animal that "fights to the death" for the sake of it? It's kind of stupid. It won't. A real encounter won't work like that.
For the last 20+ years I've been debating these topics and that has always been a bug bear of mine. By making a "fight to the death" stipulation, we are gifting the real world loser with a focus and mentality it doesn't really possess.

If we are referring to them as “real-life encounters” then none of these match-ups should even exist since none of these animals would want to fight.

[Hardcastle]

I know, and their unwillingness to fight IMO SHOULD be considered. Because that's reality. I dunno, I want to know what actually happens when they encounter each other in the wild. If one runs away scared like a wuss, then ... I want to sit in that space and acknowledge that because that's real. Attributing both with the bloodlust of a bulldog is like changing the animal into something it isn't.