Minimum animal required to beat a gamebred APBT MOTN

[Hardcastle]

Sept 11, 2023 18:50:39 GMT s said:

Also i think Pitbull's robusticity is exaggerated quite a bit here, if i had to guess it's similar to that of Red Wolf, the most robust extant Wolf, 8% ML that is, very good but not close to 12.5%. Pitbulls just like all domestic Dogs are Canis LUPUS Familiaris, so i disagree with them being insanely superior to Wolves in robusticity. 

Why would you guess when there is scientific data?
If Pitbulls had the robusticity of red wolves that would place them in the bottom 5% of dog breeds, robusticity wise. Does that seem realistic to you?

[s]

Sept 11, 2023 21:15:38 GMT Hardcastle said:

Sept 11, 2023 18:50:39 GMT s said:

Also i think Pitbull's robusticity is exaggerated quite a bit here, if i had to guess it's similar to that of Red Wolf, the most robust extant Wolf, 8% ML that is, very good but not close to 12.5%. Pitbulls just like all domestic Dogs are Canis LUPUS Familiaris, so i disagree with them being insanely superior to Wolves in robusticity. 

Why would you guess when there is scientific data?
If Pitbulls had the robusticity of red wolves that would place them in the bottom 5% of dog breeds, robusticity wise. Does that seem realistic to you?

Who says that 95% of Dogs are more robust than Red Wolves? Please post that "scientific data"

[s]

Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.

[Hardcastle]

Sept 11, 2023 21:59:58 GMT s said:

Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.

So 5%, it turns out, is hyperbolic exaggeration. I never actually measured the statistics before. Now I have.



The real exact figure is 38%. Pretty big difference, my apologies, but still ... the bottom 38% of least robust dogs, factoring in italian greyhounds and chihuahuas and salukis and etc etc, is where pitbulls would need to be to match the red wolf in robusticity. 62% of random dog breeds would need to be more robust than the pitbull?? What do you think? Is that likely?

Mind you, in the top 18%, we have this dog which was recreated in this image using it's skull-

A dog used to catch boars as evidenced by healed wounds on its skull. And its robusticity score for its humerus was 10ML%, a full 1.5% higher than the most robust Pleistocene wolves, let alone the red wolf which is 2ML% higher than. Then, to the top of the graph, we have two other dogs at about 12.5ML%. They stand 19 inches tall at the shoulder (unlike 25 inches like the above 10ML% "boarhound"), so might be a better more accurate analogue for a pitbull. They would be "bulldogs".

We're not totally sure, but it seems very likely the pitbull is somewhere between 10-12.5ML%, either way far above the red wolf or any wild canine, and in the top 18% of domestic dogs robusticity wise, at bare minimum, while the red wolf would place in the bottom 38% least robust dogs.

[s]

Sept 11, 2023 22:40:24 GMT Hardcastle said:

Sept 11, 2023 21:59:58 GMT s said:

Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.

So 5%, it turns out, is hyperbolic exaggeration. I never actually measured the statistics before. Now I have.



The real exact figure is 38%. Pretty big difference, my apologies, but still ... the bottom 38% of least robust dogs, factoring in italian greyhounds and chihuahuas and salukis and etc etc, is where pitbulls would need to be to match the red wolf in robusticity. 62% of random dog breeds would need to be more robust than the pitbull?? What do you think? Is that likely?

Mind you, in the top 18%, we have this dog which was recreated in this image using it's skull-

A dog used to catch boars as evidenced by healed wounds on its skull. And its robusticity score for its humerus was 10ML%, a full 1.5% higher than the most robust Pleistocene wolves, let alone the red wolf which is 2ML% higher than. Then, to the top of the graph, we have two other dogs at about 12.5ML%. They stand 19 inches tall at the shoulder (unlike 25 inches like the above 10ML% "boarhound"), so might be a better more accurate analogue for a pitbull. They would be "bulldogs".

We're not totally sure, but it seems very likely the pitbull is somewhere between 10-12.5ML%, either way far above the red wolf or any wild canine, and in the top 18% of domestic dogs robusticity wise, at bare minimum, while the red wolf would place in the bottom 38% least robust dogs.

Your statistics are right, but i have 3 clarifications

1 - "While the limb bones of most Vindolanda dogs are no stouter than those of Australian dingoes, 34% of Vindolanda forelimb elements and 43% of hindlimb elements are very stout indeed –stouter than dingoes or even the stoutest-limbed Pleistocene wolf."

That means a quite broad majority of Vindolanda dogs, 66% for forelimbs and 57% for hindlegs were less robust than ancient Wolves or Dingoes

2 - I disagree with using data from Dog breeds that have been extinct for almost 2.000 years and extrapolate them to modern Dogs. That's like an Alien extrapolating busts of Roman Legionnaires and thinking modern humans are like that

3 - Bone density =/= Muscle density, Robustness is not just Bone Density, an example of this are Hyenas, who in terms of Bones are significantly more robust than Leopards, but in terms of muscle mass Leopards blow them out of the water.

[s]

Bulldogs and Boarhounds are likely more robust than Wolves, but the difference isn't huge and the claimed "18% robusticity" for Vindolanda dogs is almost certaintly strongly exaggerated.

[s]

Dogs to be functional have to show lean bauplans, just like wolves they descend from, therefore there's little reason to believe they are much more robust. 

[Hardcastle]

The 60 dog sample I used isn't limited to Vindolanda dogs. Only the fully black circles are Vindolanda dogs. The stars are modern pet dogs, the other symbols are from different archaeological excavations.
When it comes to Pitbulls we should probably look towards the dogs we know for sure are related to them, that is the Vindolanda boarhound and the tac gorsium Bulldogs. We know they are from the gripping dog family, the rest we have no idea. Even so, most are more robust than red wolves, but we should focus on the known gripping dogs as being our best indicator for Pitbull robusticity, and they are between 10 and 12.5 ml %. Way way way more robust than red wolves and all wild canines on record.

[Hardcastle]

No one said they have "18% robusticity", I just mentioned the known boar dog (with healed tusk wounds) is within the top 18% of all dogs on record with its robusticity. It's humerus robusticity is 10ml%. Red wolves are 8ml%. Pitbulls are likely at the very least 10ml% and possibly up to 12.5. A 25 inch tall boarhound, likely comparable to a dogo argentino, had a 10ml% score.

[grippingwhiteness]

(Replying to the thread).

Probably an Irish Stafford .

[Bolushi]

Sept 12, 2023 20:12:35 GMT grippingwhiteness said:

(Replying to the thread).

Probably an Irish Stafford .

Interestingly enough I heard the Irish Staff has had some American gamedog blood bred into it, but also seems to be the UK's version of the APBT. Basically the same.
Still trying to figure them out, I've heard some mention of them being fought.

[s]

Dec 15, 2022 23:04:09 GMT Deleted said:

Thanks @(bolushi).

I'll go on "minimum weight out of land carnivorans" for "minimum animal".

A cat probably isn't a bad choice of carnivoran, because if the cat isn't strong enough in forelimbs to subdue the dog that way, it's got nothing, nothing whatsoever, more-or-less no fight at all. And the cat needs to be quite a lot heavier to subdue an APBT with forelimbs.

Nah I won't go with snow leopard, I'd go with cougar before snow leopard. Well we do know from limb long bone studies that cougars have impressive forelimbs for a cat. But still, they aren't the fighters that pantherines are, and against an APBT this isn't a hunt, this is a fight.

But instead of cougar I'll go with cheetah. I'll choose a big arse cheetah, the biggest on record, I don't know, lets say a 180 lb cheetah. I'll put my money on the 60 lb tested APBT to beat the 180 lb record cheetah, the dog being a third the cat's weight.

And with the cheetah not only having weaker forelimbs, but also relatively non-flexible limbs, this makes the cheetah's prospects even far worse. For this reason if I was looking at cats to lose to APBT, then besides forelimb robusticity and strength, I think you want to go with cats that are stiffer and less flexible, as I feel that flexibility combines with forelimb strength to subdue a dog, like for the cat to use it's forelimb strength to best effect, it needs flexibility, and the more flexible it is, the better.

No, just no, i personally believe it's quite lower but i will be nice to Dog fans and take their estimate (12.5% Pitbull ML robusticity) as granted for the hypothethical, Cheetah ML robusticity is 7%, so even using the maximum robusticity estimate for the Pitbull, Cheetah would need to be about 1.75 times heavier to overpower it, not 3.

[s]

Cheetahs are quite gracile, nobody denies this, but claiming that they can't fight and only know how to run is a large exaggeration, the fact many AvA people agree shows how underrated Cheetahs are.

[s]

Sept 12, 2023 10:07:26 GMT Hardcastle said:

The 60 dog sample I used isn't limited to Vindolanda dogs. Only the fully black circles are Vindolanda dogs. The stars are modern pet dogs, the other symbols are from different archaeological excavations.
When it comes to Pitbulls we should probably look towards the dogs we know for sure are related to them, that is the Vindolanda boarhound and the tac gorsium Bulldogs. We know they are from the gripping dog family, the rest we have no idea. Even so, most are more robust than red wolves, but we should focus on the known gripping dogs as being our best indicator for Pitbull robusticity, and they are between 10 and 12.5 ml %. Way way way more robust than red wolves and all wild canines on record.

Homever even in those stars, there is a very very large variation between the Dogs. There is an outlier at high 11% but most are significantly below that, after that one there are 2 more that just fall short of 10%, leaving the remaining dogs at 6-8%

[s]

I also think you overhype bone robusticity a bit too much, it's indeed important, but without muscles they can't do much by themselves, an example of this is Spotted Hyena Vs Leopard, Spotted Hyena has a slight ML Robusticity advantage, but when it comes to muscle it's blown out of the water by Leopard.