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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 19, 2023 20:10:58 GMT
They are using reason to avoid fights. Wild animals are doing it out of fear. Attributing wild animals with cool composed reasoning abilities is ridiculous. The way nature bestows them with strong self preservation instinct is making them fearful of conflict and uncomfortable in a fight.
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Post by s on Sept 20, 2023 9:20:46 GMT
They are using reason to avoid fights. Wild animals are doing it out of fear. Attributing wild animals with cool composed reasoning abilities is ridiculous. The way nature bestows them with strong self preservation instinct is making them fearful of conflict and uncomfortable in a fight. If you actually believed that no self-preservation makes you a warrior Gigachad and that self-preservation makes you a coward you would be putting it in practice and picking fights with elite heavyweight boxers for no reason because not doing it is "cowardly" lol |
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Post by s on Sept 20, 2023 9:28:36 GMT
They are using reason to avoid fights. Wild animals are doing it out of fear. Attributing wild animals with cool composed reasoning abilities is ridiculous. The way nature bestows them with strong self preservation instinct is making them fearful of conflict and uncomfortable in a fight. Wild animals avoid fights out of reason as well lol. Unlike Dogs who can always go to the veterinary to recover from injuries, an injury for a wild animal obtained from trying to punch too much above their weight and failing would mean either being unable to hunt for a significant time, or being at risk of death. They use something called "brains" for this, which Bulldogs don't seem to have abundance of, as i stated repeteadly their brains are the smallest of all dog breeds by a significant margin. |
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Post by s on Sept 20, 2023 9:30:50 GMT
Do you actually believe it would be smart for Pumas to behave like Bulldogs and relentlessly charge at the nearest adult male Wild Water Buffalo for no reason? Of course not, self-preservation exists to avoid extinction of species. Bulldogs don't have a risk of extinction because of humans.
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Post by s on Sept 20, 2023 9:32:52 GMT
Yeah this analogy is kind of crazy. The disrespect is off the charts. This inability to appreciate the reality that dogs (any kind of dog you care to mention) is the way it is for its benefit, so that it can perform its task better, just shows a deep failure to appreciate what dogs are. A failure to give them their due respect as legitimate living organisms adapted to a legitimate niche. They aren't random goofy accessories, they are tools crafted to be optimal for specific tasks. Bullbreeds are confident in fights specifically to make them MORE dangerous. They are the organism where winning fights is a priority, and what they are is the result of that priority. With wild predators survival is the priority, minimising injury and etc. Its not even like a pitbull is more likely to die in a fight, that is a mischaracterisation, it is actually more likely to survive the fight with a high-self-preservation wild animal, because the wild animal won't be fully committed to the fight. It will want to stop and flee, and that is when you start losing. The pitbulls "lack of self preservation" refers to its willingness to keep fighting with confidence while being injured, not to make it die easier, to make it succeed. The injuries can be addressed later, that is its luxury that allows it to be this way while a wild animal can not afford to be. But it makes zero sense if that behaviour made it more susceptible to death and failure within the fight, that is not the case. Their mentality makes them more dangerous and more liable to win, that is why they have it. A wild animal doesn't have it because "losing" is no big deal, they can lose and leave. And so that is usually what is going to happen. In a fight where leaving isn't an option, the fact the wild animal will still be wishing it could leave and hating being there will only make it perform WORSE and be more susceptible to injury and death. Fully committing to the fight with confidence would be more optimal in that scenario, but they aren't designed for that scenario. The dog is. You can pick out lots of ways in which wild animals will be more impressive than domestic dogs. Fighting isn't one of them and having the optimal mentality for fighting is definitely not one of them. Making out like their confidence is akin to the naive stupidity of some twink who can't fight is bullshit, their confidence is akin to the best most dangerous human fighters in history, as a standard. A rare level of warrior mentality in humans is much less rare in bullbreeds, because it has been specifically favoured in their cutthroat selection. It wasn't favoured to make them worse at their role. Totally absurd. If you just all started understanding that wild animals are first and foremost wild survivalists. Winning fights is not their priority, and as a result they don't have optimal traits for winning fights. They have optimal traits for surviving, and front and centre of that is being a shrewdly cautious coward. Avoiding fights. To the best of their ability avoiding conflict where they probably will get hurt, and having an innate instinctive dislike and disdain for conflict where they are likely to get hurt. One which frankly will make them perform worse in a forced fight, and make them more liable to get exhausted and get hurt and get killed because they will be amateurs performing badly in a sport they hate. All this turns around in the sport they like - for cats that is ambush assassination on unsuspecting vulnerable target. Then yes they will look like bruce lee or whatever and be confident and cool as shit and pull off a really cool kill. Your fantasy is giving them that same mentality in an activity they despise and avoid at all costs. That's delusional, and not reality. Gripping dogs, good ones, really do have genuine confidence and passion for combat, and they have that to make them better and more dangerous in combat. You can't twist it into a negative for combat. A negative for long term independent wilderness survival? Absolutely. Not a negative in a fight. Not even 1% negative in a fight. ALL positive. Extremely beneficial. So much so it should always be the top most important consideration before weaponry or anything else. Who BELIEVES they are going to win, who wants to be there and is happy and willing to swim into the deep waters of combat? That should always be the top consideration. I'm not taking issue with the pit bull's competency as a fighter but rather your statement that anyone who avoids a fight cannot fight well. This can easily be refuted by the fact that high level fighters, whether they are special forces veterans, professional mma fighters, and dangerous outlaws avoid fights if they could. Most street fights are partaken by people that society would not consider dangerous, drunk/high randos who do not know how to fight. Hell, in mma, its not uncommon for elite mma fighters to avoid hard sparring in the weeks before a big fight to avoid unecessary injuries even though he can absolutely perform if he has to. Yes, avoiding unnecesary injury =/= being a coward, by that logic if you are a Soldier and would prefer not to charge at an active machine gun nest frontally unless necessary you are a "coward terrified of fighting" |
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 20, 2023 10:12:02 GMT
It's the most practical team you can get in all likelihood and the best way to go about it. You hold the pitbull back because it's liable to rush in and die, then you let the herders bully and harass the cat for as long as necessary to ensure the cat is unable to fight competently whatsoever. That's the best team possible maybe, but perhaps a big boarhound would be better than a pitbull. I dunno... the bigger the dog the bigger the target so the easier for the monstrous cat to subdue and kill. I'm speaking from a hunting standpoint, if I was trafficking drugs to Wisconsin from Mexico and ended up spilling 25 kilograms of fentanyl, 77 pounds of weed, and 36 pints of cocaine on the interstate and was forced to kill "El Loco" the puma or I'd get left in a ditch with my head chopped off that's the team you go with. Puma could back itself into a corner but the kelpie would be up in its face baiting the cat into trying to attack, but the kelpie would be too quick and the heeler being more daring mentally would start landing nips that would get harder and harder as the cat wore itself out more. Slip the pitbull on the cat when it's too exhausted to do anything and you win. For this pack maybe the Boergrey could provide this but it's not so likely with just one dog. Perhaps a pair of Boergrey x Airedales/collies/heelers/street dogs/etc. could serve a similar purpose. 1 - Pumas don't behave like that, there are videos where they are cornered in cliffs by Hounds, with the abyss below them and are simply annoyed instead of reactive/defensive On top of a cliff, not alarmed Gets tail grabbed, doesn't care that much 2 - Puma would be resting all the time lol, you can't exhaust any animal in an scenario where it's resting and simply starting at the Dogs 90% of the time. 3 - Cats have insane reflexes, any attempt at "nipping" would probably end up like this As shown on these Cat Vs Snake videos, Snakes (or really the vast majority of animals) can't really compete with them in reflexes They absolutely do behave like that and it's weird to believe otherwise. Those are scenthounds, not quite as bitey, but still rough scenthounds like this plotthound do give cougars problems - rumble.com/v2bqn20-gotcha-tail.html |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 20, 2023 10:18:05 GMT
They are using reason to avoid fights. Wild animals are doing it out of fear. Attributing wild animals with cool composed reasoning abilities is ridiculous. The way nature bestows them with strong self preservation instinct is making them fearful of conflict and uncomfortable in a fight. If you actually believed that no self-preservation makes you a warrior Gigachad and that self-preservation makes you a coward you would be putting it in practice and picking fights with elite heavyweight boxers for no reason because not doing it is "cowardly" lol I don't claim to not be a coward. I have a fairly balanced self preservation instinct, maybe even slightly heightened. I know people with far lower and higher. Those with lower can over-achieve relative to their ability in fights. They're the ones you really don't want to fight. People who are genuinely not scared and have unwavering self belief that they will prevail, they're a nightmare in a fight. This shouldn't be confused for people who posture and talk shit before a fight, those are the most scared people, they are trying to bluff you out and make you retreat and not fight them. When someone really wants to fight they are quiet. This is, again, perfectly reflected in animals. Wild predators do aggressive displays, growling and hissing and baring their teeth. Gripping dogs don't do that, the only noise a pitbull will make in a confrontation is maybe whimpering like a little baby because it is frustrated that it isn't already biting the other animal. It whimpers like it is hungry for blood and flesh, it doesn't engage in intimidation tactics. It WANTS to fight, doesn't want to avoid it, wants to get its teeth on its target. That's the difference. Wild animals want to avoid fights, so they posture and display and make noise and act crazy. If a dog does that you know its a wuss and scared. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 20, 2023 10:21:02 GMT
They are using reason to avoid fights. Wild animals are doing it out of fear. Attributing wild animals with cool composed reasoning abilities is ridiculous. The way nature bestows them with strong self preservation instinct is making them fearful of conflict and uncomfortable in a fight. Wild animals avoid fights out of reason as well lol. Unlike Dogs who can always go to the veterinary to recover from injuries, an injury for a wild animal obtained from trying to punch too much above their weight and failing would mean either being unable to hunt for a significant time, or being at risk of death. They use something called "brains" for this, which Bulldogs don't seem to have abundance of, as i stated repeteadly their brains are the smallest of all dog breeds by a significant margin. Not "a reason", reason. Meaning they are thinking about why they shouldn't fight, genuinely weighing up the pros and cons, which takes a massive human brain, and then deciding through reasoned logic to not fight. I know people want to pretend wild predators are doing that too, but they are wrong. That is not something a wild predator has the capacity to do, that is advanced calculated reasoning that only people, and only some people, can do. The way nature makes wild predators avoid unnecessarily risk fights, is making them fear and dislike confrontation, persecution and combat. It's a feeling for them, not a well thought out strategy. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 20, 2023 10:24:18 GMT
Do you actually believe it would be smart for Pumas to behave like Bulldogs and relentlessly charge at the nearest adult male Wild Water Buffalo for no reason? Of course not, self-preservation exists to avoid extinction of species. Bulldogs don't have a risk of extinction because of humans. No it wouldn't be smart, and that is why self-preservation exists. Correct. That is why they are cowards. They have a perfectly valid excuse and no one ever denied that. It doesn't mean they are not cowards, it is just why they are justified being cowards, and also it should be remembered they can't even fathom the concept of being ashamed to be a coward. So they have truly no aversion to cowardice whatsoever. Still... they are what we call cowards. All those good excuses change that fact not at all. They change how we should feel about them being cowards, but they are still cowards. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 20, 2023 10:34:45 GMT
Yes, avoiding unnecesary injury =/= being a coward, by that logic if you are a Soldier and would prefer not to charge at an active machine gun nest frontally unless necessary you are a "coward terrified of fighting" Depends if they are actually terrified of fighting or not. A soldier might be tactical and strategic with a well thought out long-term plan where backing down and retreating this time is the smart move and he is thinking many many chess pieces ahead. This is a level of intellectual capacity that is extremely high, and is not found in wild cats at all. It is not even common in humans. It is a rare level of intellect among humans. It is extremely rare in the wild animal kingdom. Some small little instances of animals crudely thinking ahead in some small ways exist, and they blow scientists minds. I'm talking about killer whales working together to make a wave that knocks a seal off an iceberg, or tool use in crows, etc. These are signs of extreme intelligence by wild animal standards, and they are nothing at all compared to what you are trying to attribute cats with in this scenario. The amount of intelligence required for a cat to weigh up the risks and think about possibly being injured and then how hard it will be to hunt and etc etc, is literally thousands of times more intellectual capacity than they possess. It is also a totally unnecessary waste of brainpower when instead they can just be instinctually inclined to be cautious and scared of face to face conflict and get the same result. They have that wired in, so they don't need to calculate like Albert Einstein every time they are thinking about attacking or fleeing. They just feel scared and unsure and refrain from doing the scary risky thing. We mostly do this to, but occassionally after being conditioned to be brave a soldier might need to stop and reassess and think about whether or not it is the smartest strategy to be brave given the circumstances. Equally a bulldog isn't thinking "If I get injured then I will be ok because I'll have the vet take care of me and get fed and my master will think I'm brave and it will be fine". No, they just are wired brave, and wild predators are wired much much much less brave. No thinking is going into either one's behaviour. |
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Post by s on Sept 20, 2023 10:58:44 GMT
Yes, avoiding unnecesary injury =/= being a coward, by that logic if you are a Soldier and would prefer not to charge at an active machine gun nest frontally unless necessary you are a "coward terrified of fighting" Depends if they are actually terrified of fighting or not. A soldier might be tactical and strategic with a well thought out long-term plan where backing down and retreating this time is the smart move and he is thinking many many chess pieces ahead. This is a level of intellectual capacity that is extremely high, and is not found in wild cats at all. It is not even common in humans. It is a rare level of intellect among humans. It is extremely rare in the wild animal kingdom. Some small little instances of animals crudely thinking ahead in some small ways exist, and they blow scientists minds. I'm talking about killer whales working together to make a wave that knocks a seal off an iceberg, or tool use in crows, etc. These are signs of extreme intelligence by wild animal standards, and they are nothing at all compared to what you are trying to attribute cats with in this scenario. The amount of intelligence required for a cat to weigh up the risks and think about possibly being injured and then how hard it will be to hunt and etc etc, is literally thousands of times more intellectual capacity than they possess. It is also a totally unnecessary waste of brainpower when instead they can just be instinctually inclined to be cautious and scared of face to face conflict and get the same result. They have that wired in, so they don't need to calculate like Albert Einstein every time they are thinking about attacking or fleeing. They just feel scared and unsure and refrain from doing the scary risky thing. We mostly do this to, but occassionally after being conditioned to be brave a soldier might need to stop and reassess and think about whether or not it is the smartest strategy to be brave given the circumstances. Equally a bulldog isn't thinking "If I get injured then I will be ok because I'll have the vet take care of me and get fed and my master will think I'm brave and it will be fine". No, they just are wired brave, and wild predators are wired much much much less brave. No thinking is going into either one's behaviour. And Predators are Predators for a reason, they aren't afraid of fighting or attacking since they need to fight constantly to survive and eat. It's like suggesting a guy who gets into street punch fights every day is terrified of fighting, preposterous. The human equivalent of Bulldogs would be actual zombies as i said before. "Brave", yes, but the low intelligence, maximum agression, no self-preservation type of intelligence that mindlessly charges for no reason, even against something they can't beat. A 135 IQ Soldier is obviously going to behave differently from a 65 IQ Soldier, the high IQ Soldier is going to calculate risks and benefits of each approach to say storming a trench, he is first going to think an elaborate plan and strategy to softening the defenses. A 65 IQ Soldier is more likely to mindlessly charge at first opportunity "because im going to get food and bandages if im hurt anyway" |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 20, 2023 11:24:41 GMT
The dumbest gripping on earth still has far more brainpower than any feline. That is not a road you want to go down.
Also-
Predators =/= fighters.
A wild cat is extremely happy and confident to attack things... ON ITS OWN TERMS. When it is persecuted and under-attack that confidence goes out the window, and we know this by seeing it with our eyes but ALSO due to what you have been arguing. It is not smart for a feline to engage in such shenanigans, right? It is risky and they run a higher risk of being injured and then their hunting will be compromised, etc etc. So it behooves the wild cat to avoid such situations. Remember? Well the way nature works is by passing these instructions on to an animal via its instincts which operate with a punishment and reward system of good hormones and negative hormones.
Do what you are supposed to do? You experience euophoria and satisfaction and contentment, do what you are not supposed to do? You get punished with fear and dread and panic and bad feelings. That is how a wild animal works, it is also mostly how we work and how dogs work and etc, but what gets punished and what gets rewarded differs depending on your evolutionary demands, what activities are to your benefit and what activities are to your detriment. Historically. Being brave and loving fighting was the best way for a bulldog to successfully breed going through its history, so they are rewarded with joy and satisfaction and euphoria when they fight. Needlessly fighting has been to the detriment of wild cats (for all the reasons you so expertly argued), and so they get punished with negative feelings when they do it. Fear, panic, dream, impending doom, sadness, etc.
They don't feel this when they are ambushing an unsuspecting vulnerable animal, no, then they feel euphoria and joy and pleasure and etc, but when it doesn't go well and when they find themselves in a fight being attacked and persecuted, then they are encouraged to flee the situation with negative feelings. That's how it works. It doesn't work by way of the cat thinking and rationalising like a 135 IQ soldier. Sorry. Totally ridiculous statement.
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Post by s on Sept 20, 2023 11:40:01 GMT
The dumbest gripping on earth still has far more brainpower than any feline. That is not a road you want to go down. Also- Predators =/= fighters. A wild cat is extremely happy and confident to attack things... ON ITS OWN TERMS. When it is persecuted and under-attack that confidence goes out the window, and we know this by seeing it with our eyes but ALSO due to what you have been arguing. It is not smart for a feline to engage in such shenanigans, right? It is risky and they run a higher risk of being injured and then their hunting will be compromised, etc etc. So it behooves the wild cat to avoid such situations. Remember? Well the way nature works is by passing these instructions on to an animal via its instincts which operate with a punishment and reward system of good hormones and negative hormones. Do what you are supposed to do? You experience euophoria and satisfaction and contentment, do what you are not supposed to do? You get punished with fear and dread and panic and bad feelings. That is how a wild animal works, it is also mostly how we work and how dogs work and etc, but what gets punished and what gets rewarded differs depending on your evolutionary demands, what activities are to your benefit and what activities are to your detriment. Historically. Being brave and loving fighting was the best way for a bulldog to successfully breed going through its history, so they are rewarded with joy and satisfaction and euphoria when they fight. Needlessly fighting has been to the detriment of wild cats (for all the reasons you so expertly argued), and so they get punished with negative feelings when they do it. Fear, panic, dream, impending doom, sadness, etc. They don't feel this when they are ambushing an unsuspecting vulnerable animal, no, then they feel euphoria and joy and pleasure and etc, but when it doesn't go well and when they find themselves in a fight being attacked and persecuted, then they are encouraged to flee the situation with negative feelings. That's how it works. It doesn't work by way of the cat thinking and rationalising like a 135 IQ soldier. Sorry. Totally ridiculous statement. Ironically you are the one thinking felines are some sort of hypercalculating geniuses that can instantly sense when their prey is vulnerable and stalking them for weeks, lol. Knowing risks and benefits doesn't need that much brain power, in their lifes a Predator is going to hunt a lot of animals of different sizes, with different difficulties, let's take a Puma example, he has hunted a Rocky Mountains Elk, but oh boy, was it tough, because of that experience he has learnt to not attack a Bison despite not having actually fought one. Because if he had trouble with the Elk. He knows that messing with the much bigger Bison is a bad idea |
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Post by s on Sept 20, 2023 12:09:04 GMT
The dumbest gripping on earth still has far more brainpower than any feline. That is not a road you want to go down. Probably, but they don't show it in their behaviour lol They have more neurons because they are descended from Wolves, who are more intelligent than Felines lol. I readed that modern Domestic Cats have brains 25% smaller than their Wildcat ancestors. Something similar has probably happened with domestic Dogs compared to Wolves. And modern Bulldogs (im referring to Victorian era and after, earlier similar Dogs were smarter and closer to Hounds, since they were meant to be more multirole Dogs used for Hunting as well) have smaller brains than all other dog types of a similar size Look at this Black Bear, he of course has far less brainpower than a Human, but at least he tries not to knock down things, which is more than what can be said for a lot of customers. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 20, 2023 12:18:17 GMT
The dumbest gripping on earth still has far more brainpower than any feline. That is not a road you want to go down. Also- Predators =/= fighters. A wild cat is extremely happy and confident to attack things... ON ITS OWN TERMS. When it is persecuted and under-attack that confidence goes out the window, and we know this by seeing it with our eyes but ALSO due to what you have been arguing. It is not smart for a feline to engage in such shenanigans, right? It is risky and they run a higher risk of being injured and then their hunting will be compromised, etc etc. So it behooves the wild cat to avoid such situations. Remember? Well the way nature works is by passing these instructions on to an animal via its instincts which operate with a punishment and reward system of good hormones and negative hormones. Do what you are supposed to do? You experience euophoria and satisfaction and contentment, do what you are not supposed to do? You get punished with fear and dread and panic and bad feelings. That is how a wild animal works, it is also mostly how we work and how dogs work and etc, but what gets punished and what gets rewarded differs depending on your evolutionary demands, what activities are to your benefit and what activities are to your detriment. Historically. Being brave and loving fighting was the best way for a bulldog to successfully breed going through its history, so they are rewarded with joy and satisfaction and euphoria when they fight. Needlessly fighting has been to the detriment of wild cats (for all the reasons you so expertly argued), and so they get punished with negative feelings when they do it. Fear, panic, dream, impending doom, sadness, etc. They don't feel this when they are ambushing an unsuspecting vulnerable animal, no, then they feel euphoria and joy and pleasure and etc, but when it doesn't go well and when they find themselves in a fight being attacked and persecuted, then they are encouraged to flee the situation with negative feelings. That's how it works. It doesn't work by way of the cat thinking and rationalising like a 135 IQ soldier. Sorry. Totally ridiculous statement. Ironically you are the one thinking felines are some sort of hypercalculating geniuses that can instantly sense when their prey is vulnerable and stalking them for weeks, lol. Knowing risks and benefits doesn't need that much brain power, in their lifes a Predator is going to hunt a lot of animals of different sizes, with different difficulties, let's take a Puma example, he has hunted a Rocky Mountains Elk, but oh boy, was it tough, because of that experience he has learnt to not attack a Bison despite not having actually fought one. Because if he had trouble with the Elk. He knows that messing with the much bigger Bison is a bad idea Yes it doesn't take much intelligence to distinguish between riskier and less risky targets (and cats have plenty of that type of intelligence), what requires extreme abstract reasoning skills far beyond any wild cat or any animal with even 5 times more brainpower than a wildcat, is being able to understand that they want to avoid risky situations because they might get injured and then that might make it harder to hunt next week and etc etc. No, all they "know" is they feel fear and dread over the prospect of engaging with a dangerous animal that is well poised to defend itself and fight back. That is all. They know the feeling of fear it causes them, they aren't masterfully plotting out the long term chess game strategy you are attributing them with. That is actually beyond even a human under natural circumstances. Humans traditionally just avoid risk via primal fear, and so do cats. |
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