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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 3, 2023 6:49:23 GMT
Puma and leopards are definitely faster than wolves. I'm sure wolf speeds given on lame "info pages" are way off. 32 mph is where I would cap wolf speed based on everything, and most wouldn't even be that fast. Indian wolf I could potentially give 35 mph.
Hyena would be 27 mph or similar.
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Post by bombsonyourmom on Sept 3, 2023 7:20:30 GMT
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 3, 2023 8:03:13 GMT
I was already under the distinct impression AWDs were the fastest wild canine, and have in the past entertained 40 mph as being realistic for them, but even so that is surprisingly high. I do often wonder about the consistency/reliability of the methods used to get speeds. Not even so much to suggest they are "inaccurate", they could be fully accurate while still giving different results than fully accurate results using a different method.
Like in that study they use GPS, which is good, but they show an interesting way you could get very different results using GPS. By changing the "gps fix rate" interval times. They are checking how far the GPS signal has moved between certain amounts of time. They got it down to 10 second intervals for brief periods, and that is pretty good, but even that means they AVERAGED 42.5 MPH over 10 seconds. Technically there could have been higher bursts in those seconds. Changing the interval could change things a lot, while all still being "accurate". And that is just within GPS methodology. You can imagine how much things could alter using other methods.
I kind of feel like you need to look through the figures around the net, hopefully including real results from real tests like that, take them into consideration, but still also do a lot of detective work using your judgement and common sense. Like the numbers are "clues" more than facts.
AWDs are clearly very fast, however. They may genuinely be as fast as the fastest sighthounds in top speed, but would still be lower in acceleration, and though they can sustain pretty high intensity sprints for a pretty good stretch, it seems (according to that study's data) they still don't sustain maximum velocity for distances comparable to greyhounds (let alone salukis and some other more enduro based sighthounds).
So top speed is genuinely elite, but in a "race" they would still be smoked, which makes sense.
I do wonder what the second fastest wild dog would be? I again don't trust google on this one. My hunch would be indian wolf, which basically specialised on blackbuck antelope and are extremely racey as a result. Dholes do seem explosive and like they have a lot of acceleration, so perhaps could be up there as well. Dunno.
It is interesting that gender doesn't impact speed at all in greyhounds and horses, especially because there IS sexual dimorphism, males are bigger and more powerful, but the power discrepancy seems to be perfectly balanced by the weight discrepancy, which is pretty remarkable. Reminds me again of my dogs, both are females but one is much bigger and more powerful (with more fast twitch), even so the lighter dog can attain similar speeds to the bigger dog, because it is obviously easier to move lighter weight. But yeah it is weird that they seem to cancel eachother out so perfectly and end up the exact same speed (at least it seems to me). The same phenomenon seems to happen with greyhounds and racehorses.
There was a lot of debate at one point about lion speeds and some people thought bigger more powerful males would be faster than females. I always maintained this is crazy, in fact I don't think the male's power could make up for it and I'm quite sure the females are definitely faster (though have never seen it confirmed).
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Post by bombsonyourmom on Sept 3, 2023 8:32:06 GMT
I was already under the distinct impression AWDs were the fastest wild canine, and have in the past entertained 40 mph as being realistic for them, but even so that is surprisingly high. I do often wonder about the consistency/reliability of the methods used to get speeds. Not even so much to suggest they are "inaccurate", they could be fully accurate while still giving different results than fully accurate results using a different method. Like in that study they use GPS, which is good, but they show an interesting way you could get very different results using GPS. By changing the "gps fix rate" interval times. They are checking how far the GPS signal has moved between certain amounts of time. They got it down to 10 second intervals for brief periods, and that is pretty good, but even that means they AVERAGED 42.5 MPH over 10 seconds. Technically there could have been higher bursts in those seconds. Changing the interval could change things a lot, while all still being "accurate". And that is just within GPS methodology. You can imagine how much things could alter using other methods. I kind of feel like you need to look through the figures around the net, hopefully including real results from real tests like that, take them into consideration, but still also do a lot of detective work using your judgement and common sense. Like the numbers are "clues" more than facts. AWDs are clearly very fast, however. They may genuinely be as fast as the fastest sighthounds in top speed, but would still be lower in acceleration, and though they can sustain pretty high intensity sprints for a pretty good stretch, it seems (according to that study's data) they still don't sustain maximum velocity for distances comparable to greyhounds (let alone salukis and some other more enduro based sighthounds). So top speed is genuinely elite, but in a "race" they would still be smoked, which makes sense. I do wonder what the second fastest wild dog would be? I again don't trust google on this one. My hunch would be indian wolf, which basically specialised on blackbuck antelope and are extremely racey as a result. Dholes do seem explosive and like they have a lot of acceleration, so perhaps could be up there as well. Dunno. It is interesting that gender doesn't impact speed at all in greyhounds and horses, especially because there IS sexual dimorphism, males are bigger and more powerful, but the power discrepancy seems to be perfectly balanced by the weight discrepancy, which is pretty remarkable. Reminds me again of my dogs, both are females but one is much bigger and more powerful (with more fast twitch), even so the lighter dog can attain similar speeds to the bigger dog, because it is obviously easier to move lighter weight. But yeah it is weird that they seem to cancel eachother out so perfectly and end up the exact same speed (at least it seems to me). The same phenomenon seems to happen with greyhounds and racehorses. There was a lot of debate at one point about lion speeds and some people thought bigger more powerful males would be faster than females. I always maintained this is crazy, in fact I don't think the male's power could make up for it and I'm quite sure the females are definitely faster (though have never seen it confirmed). I'll have to spend some time actually reading the study indepth before I can make too many comments on it. I was surprised that testosterone didn't help the male dogs and horses run faster. I've always wondered whether there a was noticeable pound for pound difference between male carnivorans and females like they are with men and women. According to studies, men have 40 percent stronger upper body muscles and 33 percent stronger lower body muscles. Size only accounted for 50 percent of the difference so pound for pound men have 20 percent more upper body strength and about 16.5 percent more lower body strength. Testosterone probably does mean male horses and dogs are stronger than same sized females but I guess the difference would be much smaller. Maybe like a 5 to 10 percent difference in combat and strength ability on p4p basis. As for lions, no way males are faster. There is a much bigger gender size difference between lions than with dogs. Dogs are also in the ideal body range for ground speed. It's no coincidence that the fastest ground animals are between the 60 to 150 pound weight class. More importantly, dogs have an evolutionary incentive to have females and males running at the same speeds. They are pack hunters. Granted that is also true of lions but their pack system is a lot less refined. There are studies that indicate that there is a lot of loafing amongst lions, so in most cases having more than 2 lions doesn't increase hunting success. The only exceptions are when they tackle really large prey like buffalo. I think their pack hunting behavior is a relatively recent evolutionary development. The majority of cats are solitary so it benefits big cats to have different prey preferences to reduce competition with one another. There will be overlap but in general females go after faster animals while males go after larger ones. I personally theorize the reason lions developed packs was a response to the absurd competition in Africa. This is also true of hyenas. According to studies, spotted hyenas actually usually forage on their own. This is partly because males get pushed around a lot and are at the bottom of the pecking order, but even so it is odd how they hunt like solo animals until you remember they have to deal with much larger lions. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9187110/#:~:text=Spotted%20hyenas%20typically%20hunt%20alone,prey%20%5B19%2C25%5D. Generally speaking, it takes about 4 hyenas to dominate one lioness. I bet that hyenas banded together first to deal with lions and then in response lions developed prides and then in response spotted hyenas started forming fuck huge clans. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 3, 2023 8:42:41 GMT
All good points.
Would just add becoming social is also fairly new for spotted hyenas. It seems xenocyon, and then the descending lycaon (awds) were possibly the core cause of both lions AND spotted hyenas going social.
AWDs these days aren't even that competitive but that is because they have unnaturally small social units with 6-8 individuals. Historically, in fact in recent memory- even observed by people like david attenborough in the 1970s, AWDs commonly had packs of 50+ individuals, and I think those roving marauding super-organisms forced lions and spotted hyenas to band together. Now AWDs actually can't recover, even with conservation efforts from humans, because lions and leopards and hyenas are actively blocking them from recovering, they need the huge packs to operate how they evolved to operate.
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Post by bombsonyourmom on Sept 3, 2023 15:33:26 GMT
It's hard to imagine how the old super packs used to operate. Did they just kill ten animals in single hunt?
It's a shame we didn't domesticate AWDs. I bet dogs would be way more impressive if they descended from them instead of wolves.
Does anybody have that picture of a greyhound and a pit bull standing side by side? The photo was black and white and the caption mentioned that both dogs were the same weight despite their differences.
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 3, 2023 21:42:47 GMT
It's hard to imagine how the old super packs used to operate. Did they just kill ten animals in single hunt? Well there's about 600-700 lbs of meat on a cape buffalo, 400-500 lbs on a zebra, 200-300 on a wildebeest, that is just flesh and not counting organs and bones, so 50 or even 100 or more AWDs would be well fed with each kill. Still yes, they were voracious and for that reason they were semi-nomadic, they have a greater territory broken up into "cells" of smaller territories which they rotate through because animals actually just leave an area when AWDs show up. Unlike wolves who kind of harmoniously coexist with their prey herds, almost like ranchers. By the way, wolves are recently "pack animals" as well. Most grey wolf subspecies actually aren't. Which is kind of relevant to your next point- Maybe, but it kind of was always going to be a "jackal" that mastered the initial domestication adaptation. The wolf is recently playing at being a pack hunter, but is really from the jackal lineage of canines. Jackals have a natural inclination to watch and read other predators, learn their daily habits and figure out how to survive with them and not piss them off too much and exploit their kills and etc. When wolves domesticated themselves, what they were really doing was reverting to human-centric jackals. AWDs were never going to figure it out, and indeed that is why AWDs struggle so much with humans and why their ancestors and relatives were largely eradicated by humans (xenocyon and aenocyon for example). These pack hunting dogs are kind of a dominant force when in full swing, and don't really defer to other predators that much. With humans they couldn't walk over them, and a sneakier more cunning approach was needed. Jackals (which includes wolves and coyotes) are more cunning and strategic. One lineage of grey wolf solved the puzzle and mastered appeasing and coexisting with hostile deadly humans, and that lineage evolved into the pariah dog, when then in turn diversified into domestic dog varieties. Only one of the jackals was ever going to figure it out. Now humans can of course take animals and domesticate them, dogs modelled that for us and also taught us about taming other animals like goats, sheep, cattle and pigs, and now we are in a position where we can think to go and take wild animals and tame them and domesticate them, like scientists did with some foxes and I guess you could do it with AWDs too, but they'll never be in tune with us like dogs are. That was a long evolutionary process.  |
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Post by CoolJohnson on Sept 6, 2023 20:45:06 GMT
Does any body know the speed of feral or street dogs? I have seen some videos of leopards outpacing street dogs in a few short bursts.  It looks like imgur is banning NSFW videos. I posted about a leopard catching and strangling a street dog, so now that is deleted. |
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 6, 2023 20:46:26 GMT
Does any body know the speed of feral or street dogs? I have seen some videos of leopards outpacing street dogs in a few short bursts. It looks like imgur is banning NSFW videos. I posted about a leopard catching and strangling a street dog, so now that is deleted. I've noticed giphy will do it too at times, they deleted a gif I made a Bully Kutta killing an APBT. Nothing too outrageous, but deleting a video of a natural predation event is genuinely pretty gay. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 6, 2023 21:04:15 GMT
Dog attacking something is nearly always deleted/censored. Dog getting attacked? Kinda surprising tbh.
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Post by bombsonyourmom on Sept 27, 2023 19:42:33 GMT
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 27, 2023 19:50:37 GMT
Notice how much bigger that wolf looks compared to the puma, when the puma is probably a little heavier. Wolves are huge compared to animals their weight. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 27, 2023 20:34:06 GMT
Notice how much bigger that wolf looks compared to the puma, when the puma is probably a little heavier. Wolves are huge compared to animals their weight. To your point the tallest a puma can be, even a 200 lbser, is like 30 inches tall. That's 6 inches shorter than a timber wolf. 6 inches is huge (make sure that message gets spread around to all the ladies). That's not a 200 lbs puma, but yeah is probably a good 150 or so, maybe 27 inches tall. The wolves are probably 115. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 27, 2023 20:36:07 GMT
Can't remember the context of us talking about it, but TBH doesn't look like any were really sprinting full speed at any point IMO. Almost like a gentlemens agreement to not explode with too much speed and get tempers flared up. |
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Post by bombsonyourmom on Mar 27, 2024 2:10:44 GMT
What is the longest and most intense sighthound chase you have seen?
Doubt this is the longest on youtube, but its a pretty long chase.
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