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Post by Hardcastle on May 23, 2023 15:49:15 GMT
Hunting hooved prey with dogs is looked down upon in North America, with the exception of white tailed deer in southern states because of rogue hunters and ranchers. That may be because they have added wolves to control ungulate populations and so far its working. But at the same time you get a lot of rogue elk hunters which don’t like wolves, or dogs, or anything big that may go after elk. Its like THEY wanna shoot the prey, so anything going after it must be eradicated. I plan on hunting elk but I don’t think that way. Im not gonna try to impress ranchers. Its a shame that hunting deer with dogs that actually run them down and bite them is so rare. It used to be extremely common in Europe, and then was popular in colonial asia, but even historically it seems America really never got that into it. They seemed to hit the ground running with shooting over curs, bird dogs and scenthounds right from the start. |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2023 15:53:23 GMT
Hunting hooved prey with dogs is looked down upon in North America, with the exception of white tailed deer in southern states because of rogue hunters and ranchers. That may be because they have added wolves to control ungulate populations and so far its working. But at the same time you get a lot of rogue elk hunters which don’t like wolves, or dogs, or anything big that may go after elk. Its like THEY wanna shoot the prey, so anything going after it must be eradicated. I plan on hunting elk but I don’t think that way. Im not gonna try to impress ranchers. Its a shame that hunting deer with dogs that actually run them down and bite them is so rare. It used to be extremely common in Europe, and then was popular in colonial asia, but even historically it seems America really never got that into it. They seemed to hit the ground running with shooting over curs, bird dogs and scenthounds right from the start. Scenthounds do run down and kill deer, and a lot. Its just that of course it had to be scenthounds since North Americans love guns so much that having a dog that actually lets you shoot the prey must be perfect. The closest thing I can even find to anything but scenthounds being used to run deer is a greyhound x treeing walker, but thats still a mix. |
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Post by Bolushi on May 23, 2023 21:50:53 GMT
I thought this was a Wyatt post. Lol How dare you... Although I kinda get it because you and Wyatt both are gradually morphing into me, "single white female" style.   If you guys were older you'd know that's a great movie reference. Wyatt is 23, he's just stupid. Wyatt isn't morphing into anyone he's just dumb and bad in all categories with no hope of ascendancy. I however, already have. |
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Post by Bolushi on May 23, 2023 21:51:27 GMT
Hunting hooved prey with dogs is looked down upon in North America, with the exception of white tailed deer in southern states because of rogue hunters and ranchers. That may be because they have added wolves to control ungulate populations and so far its working. But at the same time you get a lot of rogue elk hunters which don’t like wolves, or dogs, or anything big that may go after elk. Its like THEY wanna shoot the prey, so anything going after it must be eradicated. I plan on hunting elk but I don’t think that way. Im not gonna try to impress ranchers. Its a shame that hunting deer with dogs that actually run them down and bite them is so rare. It used to be extremely common in Europe, and then was popular in colonial asia, but even historically it seems America really never got that into it. They seemed to hit the ground running with shooting over curs, bird dogs and scenthounds right from the start. Don't forget South America and I'd suggest some parts of Central America. North America is different. It's a good hunting spot but it has too many laws and regulations and too many tree huggers and animal rights activists. Even some of the hunters themselves look at dogs killing things like "ahh, not so sure about that." We're nice to herbivorous animals like deer and stuff. Spare them from getting mauled by dogs. However raccoons, coyotes, hogs, foxes... "yeah fuck you guys nobody cares" even though they've reached the same "pest" status as deer have. |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2023 21:52:32 GMT
How dare you... Although I kinda get it because you and Wyatt both are gradually morphing into me, "single white female" style. If you guys were older you'd know that's a great movie reference. Wyatt is 23, he's just stupid. Wyatt isn't morphing into anyone he's just dumb and bad in all categories with no hope of ascendancy. I however, already have. 🤔 |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2023 21:52:59 GMT
Its a shame that hunting deer with dogs that actually run them down and bite them is so rare. It used to be extremely common in Europe, and then was popular in colonial asia, but even historically it seems America really never got that into it. They seemed to hit the ground running with shooting over curs, bird dogs and scenthounds right from the start. Don't forget South America and I'd suggest some parts of Central America. Those parts are not like North America though. |
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Post by Bolushi on May 23, 2023 21:55:15 GMT
Don't forget South America and I'd suggest some parts of Central America. Those parts are not like North America though. "America" |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2023 21:56:39 GMT
Those parts are not like North America though. "America" Yes, but North Americans, more specifically US are obsessed with guns and want a dog that can stand back and let them do that. |
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Post by Bolushi on May 23, 2023 21:58:32 GMT
Yes, but North Americans, more specifically US are obsessed with guns and want a dog that can stand back and let them do that. No, that's false. We just love herbivores and hate predators and feral hogs. THEY don't get our respect with our hunting regulations and laws. You wanna trap a coyote, cut their legs off, tie their mouth shut and let a Jack Russel slowly kill it? Go ahead. Hold a baby hog by its back legs while dogs maul it? Go ahead. You wanna kill deer with GREYHOUNDS? Fucking ridiculous, throw that sick asshole in the slammer mate. |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2023 22:20:40 GMT
Yes, but North Americans, more specifically US are obsessed with guns and want a dog that can stand back and let them do that. No, that's false. We just love herbivores and hate predators and feral hogs. THEY don't get our respect with our hunting regulations and laws. You wanna trap a coyote, cut their legs off, tie their mouth shut and let a Jack Russel slowly kill it? Go ahead. Hold a baby hog by its back legs while dogs maul it? Go ahead. You wanna kill deer with GREYHOUNDS? Fucking ridiculous, throw that sick asshole in the slammer mate. Yeah wolves are a nuisance, a pest, because I can’t trail them with my 50 scenthounds without one of my dogs being killed like I do with coyotes. I go right into wolf country to tree bears and when my dogs are baying them wolves just can’t seem to stand it. Our sacred ungulates must not face any persecution, but predators and hogs go right ahead. |
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Musth
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Post by Musth on May 24, 2023 8:55:20 GMT
Good points made both by you and Hardcastle. Observing and preying on the weak I kind of forgot about. At the end of the day we will never know how domestic dogs will do against Moose and Bison, because it is basically illegal and the later is extremely scarce. With that said there is no dog out there that has been bred to take down moose or bison, so I will give the wolf an upper hand on dealing with those quarry regardless. A wild Boar is different than a moose or bison. Each animal or quarry is a different stylistic matchup. The domestic dog is unproven against Moose and Bison. The wolf is proven. Against other quarry and other tasks domestic dogs out perform the wolf(fighting, scent, coursing prey, flushing, swimming, etc). The domestic dog versatility in specialization is unrivalled in the animal kingdom. There will always be a dog better than a wolf in a specific area or skill. Except when it comes to hunting moose or bison….  <style type="text/css"></style><style type="text/css">#ad1{display:none !important;}a[href^="https://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}[id^="ad-"], #remove_ads_link{display:none !important;}#gravity-stories-1{display:none !important;}a[href^="http://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}[class*="NotificationsBell__notificationsWrapper-"]{display:none !important;}amp-app-banner{display:none !important;}[class^="adjust-smart-banner"]{display:none !important;}</style><style type="text/css"></style><style type="text/css">[class^="adjust-smart-banner"]{display:none !important;}[class*="NotificationsBell__notificationsWrapper-"]{display:none !important;}a[href^="https://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}#gravity-stories-1{display:none !important;}[id^="ad-"], #remove_ads_link{display:none !important;}#ad1{display:none !important;}amp-app-banner{display:none !important;}a[href^="http://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}</style> There are enough clues that the bulldogs/boarhounds are better at bison. For starters there are some accounts from the old west of small bulldogs swinging on bison noses until they succumbed and dropped to their front knees (I believe one such case was witnessed by General Custer - it would take some digging), and also I think the mastery of bovines clearly translates across genera and species. I recently shared with you many accounts of bulldogs and bull terriers fresh from england mastering buffalo and guar despite never having seen them before, and a small elephant. A bison is a very familiar foe, and very closely related to the wild aurochs they tamed in the first place. to make domestic cattle. There's no reason it should pose a greater danger or be more indomitable than buffalo. The moose is admittedly fairly foreign. On big stags the boarhounds, staghounds, wolfhounds, etc are all proven more adept than wolves, but perhaps it could be argued the dangers of the moose are unique, so like a collie is better able to master a porcupine than a bulldog, maybe too a wolf can better master a moose than a bulldog or boarhound. I don't believe this is true, but I can't say I've heard about bulldogs or boarhounds dealing with moose. I vaguely feel like maybe once I heard about a pitbull attacking a moose and doing ok, but it's an extremely foggy memory where I can't recall hardly any details at all. I strongly suspect a boarhound would be better with moose than a wolf, but I don't know for sure. Bison I am very confident. Yes good point. Admittedly I didn’t read your Indian accounts till later today. I also thought back about wolves performances on Bison. Most of wolves kills on bison start with scouting many months before maybe years. They will almost always target the weakest, oldest, or the Ill. They often kill the bison by pure exhaustion by harassing it to death, not even full on physically engaging. Wish that said I have seen some impressive Bison kills from Wolves, especially from running. The wolves biting the bisons Achilles crippling the bison immediately and blood gushing everywhere. Then another wolf coming straight to the bison throat and giving it a quick finishing blow. In my mind I always thought dogs would fall short in actually killing a bison. However almost always the former happens before the later. But like you mentioned hunting dogs are always taking on the strongest bison, cattle, or Bovine available. And by all accounts are able to pin even the strongest. However pinning and killing are different. Not trying to start a fight, but could bulldogs or boar dogs kill a bison with a efficient bite like a wolf? I’m guessing probably not but I suppose they could pin and hold the bison and exhaust the animal to death. I guess we should look at bull baiting to help us give us an definite answer. However a bull might be a different stylistic matchup compared to a bison. Bison tend to be much more defensive and a bull in many cases much more offensive/aggressive. Those Indian account are as good as it gets. So I guess you are right, the right dogs could be capable of taking down Bison. Not sure if big running Boar dogs, or bulldogs would be preferred for this. With moose is A different story. They are extremely aggressive willing to stand their ground. And really tall. And absolutely massive as well. A weird fight for a dog. I honestly don’t know how dogs would deal with a moose. A elk is much different from a moose by the way. And also I’m not aware of any account of dogs being used to physically engage a moose. I just think a moose might end up being a fight vs a coursing or running scenario. <style type="text/css"></style><style type="text/css">amp-app-banner{display:none !important;}[class^="adjust-smart-banner"]{display:none !important;}a[href^="http://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}a[href^="https://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}[id^="ad-"], #remove_ads_link{display:none !important;}#gravity-stories-1{display:none !important;}#ad1{display:none !important;}[class*="NotificationsBell__notificationsWrapper-"]{display:none !important;}</style><style type="text/css"></style><style type="text/css">[id^="ad-"], #remove_ads_link{display:none !important;}#ad1{display:none !important;}[class*="NotificationsBell__notificationsWrapper-"]{display:none !important;}a[href^="https://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}a[href^="http://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}[class^="adjust-smart-banner"]{display:none !important;}#gravity-stories-1{display:none !important;}amp-app-banner{display:none !important;}</style><style type="text/css"></style><style type="text/css">a[href^="http://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}[class*="NotificationsBell__notificationsWrapper-"]{display:none !important;}a[href^="https://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}#ad1{display:none !important;}amp-app-banner{display:none !important;}#gravity-stories-1{display:none !important;}[class^="adjust-smart-banner"]{display:none !important;}[id^="ad-"], #remove_ads_link{display:none !important;}</style><style type="text/css"></style><style type="text/css">[class^="adjust-smart-banner"]{display:none !important;}a[href^="https://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}[id^="ad-"], #remove_ads_link{display:none !important;}a[href^="http://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}#gravity-stories-1{display:none !important;}[class*="NotificationsBell__notificationsWrapper-"]{display:none !important;}#ad1{display:none !important;}amp-app-banner{display:none !important;}</style> |
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Post by Hardcastle on May 24, 2023 10:39:22 GMT
Yes good point. Admittedly I didn’t read your Indian accounts till later today. I also thought back about wolves performances on Bison. Most of wolves kills on bison start with scouting many months before maybe years. They will almost always target the weakest, oldest, or the Ill. They often kill the bison by pure exhaustion by harassing it to death, not even full on physically engaging. Wish that said I have seen some impressive Bison kills from Wolves, especially from running. The wolves biting the bisons Achilles crippling the bison immediately and blood gushing everywhere. Then another wolf coming straight to the bison throat and giving it a quick finishing blow. In my mind I always thought dogs would fall short in actually killing a bison. However almost always the former happens before the later. But like you mentioned hunting dogs are always taking on the strongest bison, cattle, or Bovine available. And by all accounts are able to pin even the strongest. However pinning and killing are different. Not trying to start a fight, but could bulldogs or boar dogs kill a bison with a efficient bite like a wolf? I’m guessing probably not but I suppose they could pin and hold the bison and exhaust the animal to death. I guess we should look at bull baiting to help us give us an definite answer. However a bull might be a different stylistic matchup compared to a bison. Bison tend to be much more defensive and a bull in many cases much more offensive/aggressive. Those Indian account are as good as it gets. So I guess you are right, the right dogs could be capable of taking down Bison. Not sure if big running Boar dogs, or bulldogs would be preferred for this. Well bulldogs, as the name suggests, are a little more optimal for bovines like bison, primarily due to their small compact size making them seem almost "indestructible" to bone rattling collisions, that is collisions with the beast itself and with the ground after being sent sailing 25 feet into the air. Like George P Sanderson wrote, 30-40 lbs bulldogs are actually less inclined to be harmed hunting a gaur or buffalo than a tiger is, owing to this fact. But boarhounds are still very good at subduing bovines, I'd say better than wolves for sure, and in just the offensive performance department probably better than bulldogs in some ways, being a bigger "anchor". It's only the increased injury/death risk that comes with size which makes them less viable. Never the less they have certainly done a lot of it in the past and performed some feats in recent times-        The question of killing... it's a good one. The fact is the bulldog, which is at the foundation of all gripping dog varieties, is a poor killer. It's not even thinking about killing when it is fighting, it is merely draining fight out of it's opponent. Like in MMA they call it "lay and pray", the bulldog does it's own version of that, "hang and pray". As long as it's adversary is struggling and fighting, the bulldog just holds on and relaxes. The adversary takes a break to get a breath and then the bulldog pushes it's advantage and makes the adversary start fighting again, and they quickly tire out. It's extremely effective at draining the fight out of something until it's completely defeated and helpless, and for the record when its prey is totally defeated like that, it DOES clumsily begin trying to kill it. They regrip closer to the throat and eventually begin trying to choke their target out when it stops fighting. But no they aren't good at killing. Wolves are better. BUT terriers are better at killing than wolves, and so are sighthounds. At least better technique and more drive and urgency to kill. So cross terrier or sighthound into bulldog and you get a gripping dog with better killing ability. Better killing ability than a bulldog. And realistically a "pure bulldog" doesn't exist anymore. For probably the last several hundred years all functional gripping dogs have either terrier and/or sighthound in them as well. But do these hybrids have better killing ability than a wolf? Well the skull size of the wolf and the tooth size has a lot to say about that. The wolf being so tall and long has a skull to match it's dimensions, not a skull to match it's weight, one that matches it's dimensions. So a very huge skull comparable to those of huge tall kangals. This means they have some pretty "heavy artillery" for killing compared to most dogs. Indeed the only dogs with comparable jaws are usually going to be about 180- 200 lbs. The raw penetrating and slashing ability of a wolf's jaws, the capacity to destroy flesh, is probably superior in a large wolf than it is in basically all dogs. But you can't kill what isn't defeated, and that's the huge thing which sets gripping dogs apart from wolves. They can defeat a much higher calibre of adversary, and then clumsily and shittily kill it if they have to. There are specimens of many animals which a wolf simply can't take to a place where it is ready to be killed, they don't have the physical or mental tools to engage and struggle and overwhelm a healthy angry boar or bull or bison or whatever. If it is on the brink of death they can kill more efficiently than a gripping dog, but they can't take a healthy prime large dangerous animal to the brink of death in an afternoon. It takes them months, maybe even years, of work. A good gripping dog can get that same animal to the brink of death in under an hour, and that's the difference. I can see it being a very challenging and awkward adversary, and I could see lots of good dogs making mistakes and being killed. But I bet there are really really savvy and smart gripping dogs who could pull it off more efficiently and impressively than a wolf. |
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Wyatt
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Post by Wyatt on Jun 7, 2023 8:57:52 GMT
Yes good point. Admittedly I didn’t read your Indian accounts till later today. I also thought back about wolves performances on Bison. Most of wolves kills on bison start with scouting many months before maybe years. They will almost always target the weakest, oldest, or the Ill. They often kill the bison by pure exhaustion by harassing it to death, not even full on physically engaging. Wish that said I have seen some impressive Bison kills from Wolves, especially from running. The wolves biting the bisons Achilles crippling the bison immediately and blood gushing everywhere. Then another wolf coming straight to the bison throat and giving it a quick finishing blow. In my mind I always thought dogs would fall short in actually killing a bison. However almost always the former happens before the later. But like you mentioned hunting dogs are always taking on the strongest bison, cattle, or Bovine available. And by all accounts are able to pin even the strongest. However pinning and killing are different. Not trying to start a fight, but could bulldogs or boar dogs kill a bison with a efficient bite like a wolf? I’m guessing probably not but I suppose they could pin and hold the bison and exhaust the animal to death. I guess we should look at bull baiting to help us give us an definite answer. However a bull might be a different stylistic matchup compared to a bison. Bison tend to be much more defensive and a bull in many cases much more offensive/aggressive. Those Indian account are as good as it gets. So I guess you are right, the right dogs could be capable of taking down Bison. Not sure if big running Boar dogs, or bulldogs would be preferred for this. Well bulldogs, as the name suggests, are a little more optimal for bovines like bison, primarily due to their small compact size making them seem almost "indestructible" to bone rattling collisions, that is collisions with the beast itself and with the ground after being sent sailing 25 feet into the air. Like George P Sanderson wrote, 30-40 lbs bulldogs are actually less inclined to be harmed hunting a gaur or buffalo than a tiger is, owing to this fact. But boarhounds are still very good at subduing bovines, I'd say better than wolves for sure, and in just the offensive performance department probably better than bulldogs in some ways, being a bigger "anchor". It's only the increased injury/death risk that comes with size which makes them less viable. Never the less they have certainly done a lot of it in the past and performed some feats in recent times- The question of killing... it's a good one. The fact is the bulldog, which is at the foundation of all gripping dog varieties, is a poor killer. It's not even thinking about killing when it is fighting, it is merely draining fight out of it's opponent. Like in MMA they call it "lay and pray", the bulldog does it's own version of that, "hang and pray". As long as it's adversary is struggling and fighting, the bulldog just holds on and relaxes. The adversary takes a break to get a breath and then the bulldog pushes it's advantage and makes the adversary start fighting again, and they quickly tire out. It's extremely effective at draining the fight out of something until it's completely defeated and helpless, and for the record when its prey is totally defeated like that, it DOES clumsily begin trying to kill it. They regrip closer to the throat and eventually begin trying to choke their target out when it stops fighting. But no they aren't good at killing. Wolves are better. BUT terriers are better at killing than wolves, and so are sighthounds. At least better technique and more drive and urgency to kill. So cross terrier or sighthound into bulldog and you get a gripping dog with better killing ability. Better killing ability than a bulldog. And realistically a "pure bulldog" doesn't exist anymore. For probably the last several hundred years all functional gripping dogs have either terrier and/or sighthound in them as well. But do these hybrids have better killing ability than a wolf? Well the skull size of the wolf and the tooth size has a lot to say about that. The wolf being so tall and long has a skull to match it's dimensions, not a skull to match it's weight, one that matches it's dimensions. So a very huge skull comparable to those of huge tall kangals. This means they have some pretty "heavy artillery" for killing compared to most dogs. Indeed the only dogs with comparable jaws are usually going to be about 180- 200 lbs. The raw penetrating and slashing ability of a wolf's jaws, the capacity to destroy flesh, is probably superior in a large wolf than it is in basically all dogs. But you can't kill what isn't defeated, and that's the huge thing which sets gripping dogs apart from wolves. They can defeat a much higher calibre of adversary, and then clumsily and shittily kill it if they have to. There are specimens of many animals which a wolf simply can't take to a place where it is ready to be killed, they don't have the physical or mental tools to engage and struggle and overwhelm a healthy angry boar or bull or bison or whatever. If it is on the brink of death they can kill more efficiently than a gripping dog, but they can't take a healthy prime large dangerous animal to the brink of death in an afternoon. It takes them months, maybe even years, of work. A good gripping dog can get that same animal to the brink of death in under an hour, and that's the difference. I can see it being a very challenging and awkward adversary, and I could see lots of good dogs making mistakes and being killed. But I bet there are really really savvy and smart gripping dogs who could pull it off more efficiently and impressively than a wolf. “Well bulldogs, as the name suggests, are a little more optimal for bovines like bison, primarily due to their small compact size making them seem almost "indestructible" to bone rattling collisions, that is collisions with the beast itself and with the ground after being sent sailing 25 feet into the air. Like George P Sanderson wrote, 30-40 lbs bulldogs are actually less inclined to be harmed hunting a gaur or buffalo than a tiger is, owing to this fact.” Yes, bulldogs are specialized in that department for being dogs used to subdue various quarry. From boars to bulls. Actually I have heard WHY ranchers use bulldogs/boarhounds a lot of times is for catching feral cattle. I’ve heard of dogos being used too. “they can't take a healthy prime large dangerous animal to the brink of death in an afternoon. It takes them months, maybe even years, of work. A good gripping dog can get that same animal to the brink of death in under an hour, and that's the difference.” I’d disagree with “months and years” parts because it reminds me of coyotes. Coyotes do take that long to take down white-tailed deer. ANYTHING big coyotes may take weeks just to kill a single buck. They don’t have any tools or experience with big game so even an INJURED buck they struggle with. And im not sure how to respond to the time difference. Maybe its because of domestication favoring the subjugation traits that wolves use over others which they also use? “I can see it being a very challenging and awkward adversary, and I could see lots of good dogs making mistakes and being killed. But I bet there are really really savvy and smart gripping dogs who could pull it off more efficiently and impressively than a wolf.” With wolves the reason they do extremely well with moose i’d say is because of experience. They know what the moose will do to them, so they go for a plan on them. I’ve seen a video of wolves planning out a hunt on a moose when they were trying to take it by surprise. That seems experience. That being said, I do 100% agree that I think dogs could kill moose. I haven’t heard MUCH instances but I can tell you that its happened somewhere. About the biggest predation feats i’ve seen by dogs in studies and research I read are elk and kudu. I will post the study later but its worth a read. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2023 15:01:19 GMT
Well bulldogs, as the name suggests, are a little more optimal for bovines like bison, primarily due to their small compact size making them seem almost "indestructible" to bone rattling collisions, that is collisions with the beast itself and with the ground after being sent sailing 25 feet into the air. Like George P Sanderson wrote, 30-40 lbs bulldogs are actually less inclined to be harmed hunting a gaur or buffalo than a tiger is, owing to this fact. But boarhounds are still very good at subduing bovines, I'd say better than wolves for sure, and in just the offensive performance department probably better than bulldogs in some ways, being a bigger "anchor". It's only the increased injury/death risk that comes with size which makes them less viable. Never the less they have certainly done a lot of it in the past and performed some feats in recent times- The question of killing... it's a good one. The fact is the bulldog, which is at the foundation of all gripping dog varieties, is a poor killer. It's not even thinking about killing when it is fighting, it is merely draining fight out of it's opponent. Like in MMA they call it "lay and pray", the bulldog does it's own version of that, "hang and pray". As long as it's adversary is struggling and fighting, the bulldog just holds on and relaxes. The adversary takes a break to get a breath and then the bulldog pushes it's advantage and makes the adversary start fighting again, and they quickly tire out. It's extremely effective at draining the fight out of something until it's completely defeated and helpless, and for the record when its prey is totally defeated like that, it DOES clumsily begin trying to kill it. They regrip closer to the throat and eventually begin trying to choke their target out when it stops fighting. But no they aren't good at killing. Wolves are better. BUT terriers are better at killing than wolves, and so are sighthounds. At least better technique and more drive and urgency to kill. So cross terrier or sighthound into bulldog and you get a gripping dog with better killing ability. Better killing ability than a bulldog. And realistically a "pure bulldog" doesn't exist anymore. For probably the last several hundred years all functional gripping dogs have either terrier and/or sighthound in them as well. But do these hybrids have better killing ability than a wolf? Well the skull size of the wolf and the tooth size has a lot to say about that. The wolf being so tall and long has a skull to match it's dimensions, not a skull to match it's weight, one that matches it's dimensions. So a very huge skull comparable to those of huge tall kangals. This means they have some pretty "heavy artillery" for killing compared to most dogs. Indeed the only dogs with comparable jaws are usually going to be about 180- 200 lbs. The raw penetrating and slashing ability of a wolf's jaws, the capacity to destroy flesh, is probably superior in a large wolf than it is in basically all dogs. But you can't kill what isn't defeated, and that's the huge thing which sets gripping dogs apart from wolves. They can defeat a much higher calibre of adversary, and then clumsily and shittily kill it if they have to. There are specimens of many animals which a wolf simply can't take to a place where it is ready to be killed, they don't have the physical or mental tools to engage and struggle and overwhelm a healthy angry boar or bull or bison or whatever. If it is on the brink of death they can kill more efficiently than a gripping dog, but they can't take a healthy prime large dangerous animal to the brink of death in an afternoon. It takes them months, maybe even years, of work. A good gripping dog can get that same animal to the brink of death in under an hour, and that's the difference. I can see it being a very challenging and awkward adversary, and I could see lots of good dogs making mistakes and being killed. But I bet there are really really savvy and smart gripping dogs who could pull it off more efficiently and impressively than a wolf. “Well bulldogs, as the name suggests, are a little more optimal for bovines like bison, primarily due to their small compact size making them seem almost "indestructible" to bone rattling collisions, that is collisions with the beast itself and with the ground after being sent sailing 25 feet into the air. Like George P Sanderson wrote, 30-40 lbs bulldogs are actually less inclined to be harmed hunting a gaur or buffalo than a tiger is, owing to this fact.” Yes, bulldogs are specialized in that department for being dogs used to subdue various quarry. From boars to bulls. Actually I have heard WHY ranchers use bulldogs/boarhounds a lot of times is for catching feral cattle. I’ve heard of dogos being used too. “they can't take a healthy prime large dangerous animal to the brink of death in an afternoon. It takes them months, maybe even years, of work. A good gripping dog can get that same animal to the brink of death in under an hour, and that's the difference.” I’d disagree with “months and years” parts because it reminds me of coyotes. Coyotes do take that long to take down white-tailed deer. ANYTHING big coyotes may take weeks just to kill a single buck. They don’t have any tools or experience with big game so even an INJURED buck they struggle with. And im not sure how to respond to the time difference. Maybe its because of domestication favoring the subjugation traits that wolves use over others which they also use? “I can see it being a very challenging and awkward adversary, and I could see lots of good dogs making mistakes and being killed. But I bet there are really really savvy and smart gripping dogs who could pull it off more efficiently and impressively than a wolf.” With wolves the reason they do extremely well with moose i’d say is because of experience. They know what the moose will do to them, so they go for a plan on them. I’ve seen a video of wolves planning out a hunt on a moose when they were trying to take it by surprise. That seems experience. That being said, I do 100% agree that I think dogs could kill moose. I haven’t heard MUCH instances but I can tell you that its happened somewhere. About the biggest predation feats i’ve seen by dogs in studies and research I read are elk and kudu. I will post the study later but its worth a read. Moose are called elk in Europe. |
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Wyatt
Ruminant
Posts: 178
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Post by Wyatt on Jun 7, 2023 16:25:02 GMT
“Well bulldogs, as the name suggests, are a little more optimal for bovines like bison, primarily due to their small compact size making them seem almost "indestructible" to bone rattling collisions, that is collisions with the beast itself and with the ground after being sent sailing 25 feet into the air. Like George P Sanderson wrote, 30-40 lbs bulldogs are actually less inclined to be harmed hunting a gaur or buffalo than a tiger is, owing to this fact.” Yes, bulldogs are specialized in that department for being dogs used to subdue various quarry. From boars to bulls. Actually I have heard WHY ranchers use bulldogs/boarhounds a lot of times is for catching feral cattle. I’ve heard of dogos being used too. “they can't take a healthy prime large dangerous animal to the brink of death in an afternoon. It takes them months, maybe even years, of work. A good gripping dog can get that same animal to the brink of death in under an hour, and that's the difference.” I’d disagree with “months and years” parts because it reminds me of coyotes. Coyotes do take that long to take down white-tailed deer. ANYTHING big coyotes may take weeks just to kill a single buck. They don’t have any tools or experience with big game so even an INJURED buck they struggle with. And im not sure how to respond to the time difference. Maybe its because of domestication favoring the subjugation traits that wolves use over others which they also use? “I can see it being a very challenging and awkward adversary, and I could see lots of good dogs making mistakes and being killed. But I bet there are really really savvy and smart gripping dogs who could pull it off more efficiently and impressively than a wolf.” With wolves the reason they do extremely well with moose i’d say is because of experience. They know what the moose will do to them, so they go for a plan on them. I’ve seen a video of wolves planning out a hunt on a moose when they were trying to take it by surprise. That seems experience. That being said, I do 100% agree that I think dogs could kill moose. I haven’t heard MUCH instances but I can tell you that its happened somewhere. About the biggest predation feats i’ve seen by dogs in studies and research I read are elk and kudu. I will post the study later but its worth a read. Moose are called elk in Europe. Yes. |
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