Musth
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Posts: 141
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Post by Musth on May 18, 2023 17:46:08 GMT
It’s Calicatchers that should do it. Honestly he’s got phenomenal dogs but he doesn’t hunt cougar or wolf so he doesn’t have a clue in that regard. He’s just gossiping in something he has zero real experience in. How would he know if he hasn’t done it? For Coon, Boar, and Coyote his dogs are proven all worthy quary IMO. Especially for small to medium sized dogs. If he is based in california like his username suggests, hunting both wolf and cougar is illegal... Exactly my point…. |
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ophio
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Post by ophio on May 18, 2023 17:57:42 GMT
If he is based in california like his username suggests, hunting both wolf and cougar is illegal... Exactly my point…. my bad i was responding to bolushi who said its dumb that he doesn't hunt cougar or wolf with dogs. |
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Post by Bolushi on May 18, 2023 23:19:27 GMT
It’s Calicatchers that should do it. Honestly he’s got phenomenal dogs but he doesn’t hunt cougar or wolf so he doesn’t have a clue in that regard. He’s just gossiping in something he has zero real experience in. How would he know if he hasn’t done it? For Coon, Boar, and Coyote his dogs are proven all worthy quary IMO. Especially for small to medium sized dogs. If he is based in california like his username suggests, hunting both wolf and cougar is illegal... Yeah I know, California is total worthless shit, in all categories including hunting with dogs. "He wouldn't know" is the point. I've seen people who hunt hogs with dogs also favor a honey badger over their boardog. Their personal experience is invaluable, pertinent to the topic at hand. However sometimes they're just off the wall when it comes to other topics. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2023 23:23:50 GMT
I disagree they're the ultimate big game hunter. In fact they're probably closer to the top at fighting. Wolves target only weakened prey, when you talk about their largest prey animals it's usually individuals they have been assessing for years, waiting until they got weak, and then they weakened it further for months before finally actually engaging. Big game hunting dogs go out of their way to choose the biggest meanest healthiest specimens and take them head on at their most vigorous and bring them to heel. The only caveat is it's rarely their job to kill the prey, but this commited engaging and grappling with extremely healthy and vigorous large dangerous animals in close quarter combat is hugely different and many many levels above what wolves do. A wolf would be broken and destroyed trying to replicate that behaviour. There are also cases of dogs killing large bovines and horses, not many, but some. You should check out the vindolanda study where it specifically talks about the "boarhound" skeleton having physiological adaptations to make it better at struggling with large prey than a wolf. The gracile bones of the wolf that it needs to cover long distances are hugely detrimental to it's capacity to struggle and collide and endure beatings from large wild beasts, and for this reason it's work around is to avoid struggling with healthy dangerous animals. I’d disagree they’re the ultimate big game hunter but not because of this reasoning, its more African Wild Dogs outperform all other canids in that, they’re the most successful pack hunting dog, which is what the wolf is trying to become but its slow. That being said, I wouldn’t say big game hunting dogs are superior to wolves in hunting, they’re just specialized and that makes it seem vastly different when its not. Every role found in the wolf pack from hunting, is deeply ingrained inside the dog. For herding dogs, they specialize in moving and controlling livestock. For Pointers, they specialize in locating and flushing prey, but can do everything mentioned. For Sighthounds, they specialize in catching running prey. For gripping dogs, they specialize in subjugation. All of these are wolf traits just moved around. The only dogs who do not fit under specialization i’ve seen are Spitz, Airedales and Rhodesian Ridgebacks. The reason you don’t see much on dogs killing bovines like bison is because it just isn’t a thing anymore. There used to be bison and elk hunts in the US but they were all outlawed, and now the only hooved prey allowed to be hunted is deer, and those are all scenthounds, and if not scenthound then a mix of scenthound or close. Musth |
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Musth
Ruminant
Posts: 141
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Post by Musth on May 23, 2023 7:43:54 GMT
I disagree they're the ultimate big game hunter. In fact they're probably closer to the top at fighting. Wolves target only weakened prey, when you talk about their largest prey animals it's usually individuals they have been assessing for years, waiting until they got weak, and then they weakened it further for months before finally actually engaging. Big game hunting dogs go out of their way to choose the biggest meanest healthiest specimens and take them head on at their most vigorous and bring them to heel. The only caveat is it's rarely their job to kill the prey, but this commited engaging and grappling with extremely healthy and vigorous large dangerous animals in close quarter combat is hugely different and many many levels above what wolves do. A wolf would be broken and destroyed trying to replicate that behaviour. There are also cases of dogs killing large bovines and horses, not many, but some. You should check out the vindolanda study where it specifically talks about the "boarhound" skeleton having physiological adaptations to make it better at struggling with large prey than a wolf. The gracile bones of the wolf that it needs to cover long distances are hugely detrimental to it's capacity to struggle and collide and endure beatings from large wild beasts, and for this reason it's work around is to avoid struggling with healthy dangerous animals. I’d disagree they’re the ultimate big game hunter but not because of this reasoning, its more African Wild Dogs outperform all other canids in that, they’re the most successful pack hunting dog, which is what the wolf is trying to become but its slow. That being said, I wouldn’t say big game hunting dogs are superior to wolves in hunting, they’re just specialized and that makes it seem vastly different when its not. Every role found in the wolf pack from hunting, is deeply ingrained inside the dog. For herding dogs, they specialize in moving and controlling livestock. For Pointers, they specialize in locating and flushing prey, but can do everything mentioned. For Sighthounds, they specialize in catching running prey. For gripping dogs, they specialize in subjugation. All of these are wolf traits just moved around. The only dogs who do not fit under specialization i’ve seen are Spitz, Airedales and Rhodesian Ridgebacks. The reason you don’t see much on dogs killing bovines like bison is because it just isn’t a thing anymore. There used to be bison and elk hunts in the US but they were all outlawed, and now the only hooved prey allowed to be hunted is deer, and those are all scenthounds, and if not scenthound then a mix of scenthound or close. Musth Good points made both by you and Hardcastle. Observing and preying on the weak I kind of forgot about. At the end of the day we will never know how domestic dogs will do against Moose and Bison, because it is basically illegal and the later is extremely scarce. With that said there is no dog out there that has been bred to take down moose or bison, so I will give the wolf an upper hand on dealing with those quarry regardless. A wild Boar is different than a moose or bison. Each animal or quarry is a different stylistic matchup. The domestic dog is unproven against Moose and Bison. The wolf is proven. Against other quarry and other tasks domestic dogs out perform the wolf(fighting, scent, coursing prey, flushing, swimming, etc). The domestic dog versatility in specialization is unrivalled in the animal kingdom. There will always be a dog better than a wolf in a specific area or skill. Except when it comes to hunting moose or bison….  <style type="text/css"></style><style type="text/css">#ad1{display:none !important;}a[href^="https://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}[id^="ad-"], #remove_ads_link{display:none !important;}#gravity-stories-1{display:none !important;}a[href^="http://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}[class*="NotificationsBell__notificationsWrapper-"]{display:none !important;}amp-app-banner{display:none !important;}[class^="adjust-smart-banner"]{display:none !important;}</style><style type="text/css"></style><style type="text/css">[class^="adjust-smart-banner"]{display:none !important;}[class*="NotificationsBell__notificationsWrapper-"]{display:none !important;}a[href^="https://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}#gravity-stories-1{display:none !important;}[id^="ad-"], #remove_ads_link{display:none !important;}#ad1{display:none !important;}amp-app-banner{display:none !important;}a[href^="http://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}</style> |
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Post by Hardcastle on May 23, 2023 9:57:07 GMT
I disagree they're the ultimate big game hunter. In fact they're probably closer to the top at fighting. Wolves target only weakened prey, when you talk about their largest prey animals it's usually individuals they have been assessing for years, waiting until they got weak, and then they weakened it further for months before finally actually engaging. Big game hunting dogs go out of their way to choose the biggest meanest healthiest specimens and take them head on at their most vigorous and bring them to heel. The only caveat is it's rarely their job to kill the prey, but this commited engaging and grappling with extremely healthy and vigorous large dangerous animals in close quarter combat is hugely different and many many levels above what wolves do. A wolf would be broken and destroyed trying to replicate that behaviour. There are also cases of dogs killing large bovines and horses, not many, but some. You should check out the vindolanda study where it specifically talks about the "boarhound" skeleton having physiological adaptations to make it better at struggling with large prey than a wolf. The gracile bones of the wolf that it needs to cover long distances are hugely detrimental to it's capacity to struggle and collide and endure beatings from large wild beasts, and for this reason it's work around is to avoid struggling with healthy dangerous animals. I’d disagree they’re the ultimate big game hunter but not because of this reasoning, its more African Wild Dogs outperform all other canids in that, they’re the most successful pack hunting dog, which is what the wolf is trying to become but its slow. That being said, I wouldn’t say big game hunting dogs are superior to wolves in hunting, they’re just specialized and that makes it seem vastly different when its not. Every role found in the wolf pack from hunting, is deeply ingrained inside the dog. For herding dogs, they specialize in moving and controlling livestock. For Pointers, they specialize in locating and flushing prey, but can do everything mentioned. For Sighthounds, they specialize in catching running prey. For gripping dogs, they specialize in subjugation. All of these are wolf traits just moved around. The only dogs who do not fit under specialization i’ve seen are Spitz, Airedales and Rhodesian Ridgebacks. The reason you don’t see much on dogs killing bovines like bison is because it just isn’t a thing anymore. There used to be bison and elk hunts in the US but they were all outlawed, and now the only hooved prey allowed to be hunted is deer, and those are all scenthounds, and if not scenthound then a mix of scenthound or close. MusthYes every trait found in dogs is found in wolves, to a nerfed amateur level. When it comes to any one category the wolf is not top tier. A classic example of "jack of all trades, master of none" is the wolf. In big game subjugation the bulldogs and boarhounds are levels above the wolf. This isn't WHY it picks its battles with weakened compromised and vulnerable prey, rather the opposite, it's wise and clever tendency to pick its battle with weakened and compromised vulnerable prey (often prey it has strategically weakened and compromised over time) has rendered it through evolution an animal that doesn't need to be equipped to deal with healthy prime fit strong prey in a fair close-quarter engagement. It was able to sacrifice propensity for that kind of activity in exchange for other things like elite energy conservation. Most wild animals have done this in some way or another, everyone notes it's "smart" for them to not pick fights that are risky, but then fails to follow through on the maths where if they are "smart" all the time they never have to be made into something that can endure a dumb fight. If they don't use it, they lose it. Overall a very smart approach to wilderness survival, but at the specific task of tackling and subduing large game the wolf is poor relative to the experts. |
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Post by Hardcastle on May 23, 2023 10:15:21 GMT
I’d disagree they’re the ultimate big game hunter but not because of this reasoning, its more African Wild Dogs outperform all other canids in that, they’re the most successful pack hunting dog, which is what the wolf is trying to become but its slow. That being said, I wouldn’t say big game hunting dogs are superior to wolves in hunting, they’re just specialized and that makes it seem vastly different when its not. Every role found in the wolf pack from hunting, is deeply ingrained inside the dog. For herding dogs, they specialize in moving and controlling livestock. For Pointers, they specialize in locating and flushing prey, but can do everything mentioned. For Sighthounds, they specialize in catching running prey. For gripping dogs, they specialize in subjugation. All of these are wolf traits just moved around. The only dogs who do not fit under specialization i’ve seen are Spitz, Airedales and Rhodesian Ridgebacks. The reason you don’t see much on dogs killing bovines like bison is because it just isn’t a thing anymore. There used to be bison and elk hunts in the US but they were all outlawed, and now the only hooved prey allowed to be hunted is deer, and those are all scenthounds, and if not scenthound then a mix of scenthound or close. Musth Good points made both by you and Hardcastle. Observing and preying on the weak I kind of forgot about. At the end of the day we will never know how domestic dogs will do against Moose and Bison, because it is basically illegal and the later is extremely scarce. With that said there is no dog out there that has been bred to take down moose or bison, so I will give the wolf an upper hand on dealing with those quarry regardless. A wild Boar is different than a moose or bison. Each animal or quarry is a different stylistic matchup. The domestic dog is unproven against Moose and Bison. The wolf is proven. Against other quarry and other tasks domestic dogs out perform the wolf(fighting, scent, coursing prey, flushing, swimming, etc). The domestic dog versatility in specialization is unrivalled in the animal kingdom. There will always be a dog better than a wolf in a specific area or skill. Except when it comes to hunting moose or bison…. <style type="text/css"></style><style type="text/css">#ad1{display:none !important;}a[href^="https://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}[id^="ad-"], #remove_ads_link{display:none !important;}#gravity-stories-1{display:none !important;}a[href^="http://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}[class*="NotificationsBell__notificationsWrapper-"]{display:none !important;}amp-app-banner{display:none !important;}[class^="adjust-smart-banner"]{display:none !important;}</style><style type="text/css"></style><style type="text/css">[class^="adjust-smart-banner"]{display:none !important;}[class*="NotificationsBell__notificationsWrapper-"]{display:none !important;}a[href^="https://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}#gravity-stories-1{display:none !important;}[id^="ad-"], #remove_ads_link{display:none !important;}#ad1{display:none !important;}amp-app-banner{display:none !important;}a[href^="http://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}</style> There are enough clues that the bulldogs/boarhounds are better at bison. For starters there are some accounts from the old west of small bulldogs swinging on bison noses until they succumbed and dropped to their front knees (I believe one such case was witnessed by General Custer - it would take some digging), and also I think the mastery of bovines clearly translates across genera and species. I recently shared with you many accounts of bulldogs and bull terriers fresh from england mastering buffalo and guar despite never having seen them before, and a small elephant. A bison is a very familiar foe, and very closely related to the wild aurochs they tamed in the first place. to make domestic cattle. There's no reason it should pose a greater danger or be more indomitable than buffalo. The moose is admittedly fairly foreign. On big stags the boarhounds, staghounds, wolfhounds, etc are all proven more adept than wolves, but perhaps it could be argued the dangers of the moose are unique, so like a collie is better able to master a porcupine than a bulldog, maybe too a wolf can better master a moose than a bulldog or boarhound. I don't believe this is true, but I can't say I've heard about bulldogs or boarhounds dealing with moose. I vaguely feel like maybe once I heard about a pitbull attacking a moose and doing ok, but it's an extremely foggy memory where I can't recall hardly any details at all. I strongly suspect a boarhound would be better with moose than a wolf, but I don't know for sure. Bison I am very confident. |
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Post by Bolushi on May 23, 2023 13:44:24 GMT
I heard vague reference of someone hunting moose with Dogos but they might be confused with red deer stags?
Moose have nothing but kicks and a bulldog will just eat them and grab the moose head.
Dogal and APBT is my team to catch and kill moose. 2nd up is a pair of wolfhounds. I think that would be an efficient team.
A moose is liable to die to a dog too. Not just be held.
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Post by Bolushi on May 23, 2023 13:46:35 GMT
I’d disagree they’re the ultimate big game hunter but not because of this reasoning, its more African Wild Dogs outperform all other canids in that, they’re the most successful pack hunting dog, which is what the wolf is trying to become but its slow. That being said, I wouldn’t say big game hunting dogs are superior to wolves in hunting, they’re just specialized and that makes it seem vastly different when its not. Every role found in the wolf pack from hunting, is deeply ingrained inside the dog. For herding dogs, they specialize in moving and controlling livestock. For Pointers, they specialize in locating and flushing prey, but can do everything mentioned. For Sighthounds, they specialize in catching running prey. For gripping dogs, they specialize in subjugation. All of these are wolf traits just moved around. The only dogs who do not fit under specialization i’ve seen are Spitz, Airedales and Rhodesian Ridgebacks. The reason you don’t see much on dogs killing bovines like bison is because it just isn’t a thing anymore. There used to be bison and elk hunts in the US but they were all outlawed, and now the only hooved prey allowed to be hunted is deer, and those are all scenthounds, and if not scenthound then a mix of scenthound or close. MusthYes every trait found in dogs is found in wolves, to a nerfed amateur level. When it comes to any one category the wolf is not top tier. A classic example of "jack of all trades, master of none" is the wolf. In big game subjugation the bulldogs and boarhounds are levels above the wolf. This isn't WHY it picks its battles with weakened compromised and vulnerable prey, rather the opposite, it's wise and clever tendency to pick its battle with weakened and compromised vulnerable prey (often prey it has strategically weakened and compromised over time) has rendered it through evolution an animal that doesn't need to be equipped to deal with healthy prime fit strong prey in a fair close-quarter engagement. It was able to sacrifice propensity for that kind of activity in exchange for other things like elite energy conservation. Most wild animals have done this in some way or another, everyone notes it's "smart" for them to not pick fights that are risky, but then fails to follow through on the maths where if they are "smart" all the time they never have to be made into something that can endure a dumb fight. If they don't use it, they lose it. Overall a very smart approach to wilderness survival, but at the specific task of tackling and subduing large game the wolf is poor relative to the experts. I thought this was a Wyatt post. Lol |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2023 14:01:22 GMT
Yes every trait found in dogs is found in wolves, to a nerfed amateur level. When it comes to any one category the wolf is not top tier. A classic example of "jack of all trades, master of none" is the wolf. In big game subjugation the bulldogs and boarhounds are levels above the wolf. This isn't WHY it picks its battles with weakened compromised and vulnerable prey, rather the opposite, it's wise and clever tendency to pick its battle with weakened and compromised vulnerable prey (often prey it has strategically weakened and compromised over time) has rendered it through evolution an animal that doesn't need to be equipped to deal with healthy prime fit strong prey in a fair close-quarter engagement. It was able to sacrifice propensity for that kind of activity in exchange for other things like elite energy conservation. Most wild animals have done this in some way or another, everyone notes it's "smart" for them to not pick fights that are risky, but then fails to follow through on the maths where if they are "smart" all the time they never have to be made into something that can endure a dumb fight. If they don't use it, they lose it. Overall a very smart approach to wilderness survival, but at the specific task of tackling and subduing large game the wolf is poor relative to the experts. I thought this was a Wyatt post. Lol I mean, hes not wrong. Bulldogs and boarhounds are specialized therefore they are above the wolf in that aspect. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2023 14:02:55 GMT
I heard vague reference of someone hunting moose with Dogos but they might be confused with red deer stags? Moose have nothing but kicks and a bulldog will just eat them and grab the moose head. Dogal and APBT is my team to catch and kill moose. 2nd up is a pair of wolfhounds. I think that would be an efficient team. A moose is liable to die to a dog too. Not just be held. I’ve seen wolves grappling onto moose like its nothing so im curious on how moose do against predators. |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2023 14:23:01 GMT
Good points made both by you and Hardcastle. Observing and preying on the weak I kind of forgot about. At the end of the day we will never know how domestic dogs will do against Moose and Bison, because it is basically illegal and the later is extremely scarce. With that said there is no dog out there that has been bred to take down moose or bison, so I will give the wolf an upper hand on dealing with those quarry regardless. A wild Boar is different than a moose or bison. Each animal or quarry is a different stylistic matchup. The domestic dog is unproven against Moose and Bison. The wolf is proven. Against other quarry and other tasks domestic dogs out perform the wolf(fighting, scent, coursing prey, flushing, swimming, etc). The domestic dog versatility in specialization is unrivalled in the animal kingdom. There will always be a dog better than a wolf in a specific area or skill. Except when it comes to hunting moose or bison…. <style type="text/css"></style><style type="text/css">#ad1{display:none !important;}a[href^="https://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}[id^="ad-"], #remove_ads_link{display:none !important;}#gravity-stories-1{display:none !important;}a[href^="http://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}[class*="NotificationsBell__notificationsWrapper-"]{display:none !important;}amp-app-banner{display:none !important;}[class^="adjust-smart-banner"]{display:none !important;}</style><style type="text/css"></style><style type="text/css">[class^="adjust-smart-banner"]{display:none !important;}[class*="NotificationsBell__notificationsWrapper-"]{display:none !important;}a[href^="https://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}#gravity-stories-1{display:none !important;}[id^="ad-"], #remove_ads_link{display:none !important;}#ad1{display:none !important;}amp-app-banner{display:none !important;}a[href^="http://www.mobi24.net/"]{display:none !important;}</style> There are enough clues that the bulldogs/boarhounds are better at bison. For starters there are some accounts from the old west of small bulldogs swinging on bison noses until they succumbed and dropped to their front knees (I believe one such case was witnessed by General Custer - it would take some digging), and also I think the mastery of bovines clearly translates across genera and species. I recently shared with you many accounts of bulldogs and bull terriers fresh from england mastering buffalo and guar despite never having seen them before, and a small elephant. A bison is a very familiar foe, and very closely related to the wild aurochs they tamed in the first place. to make domestic cattle. There's no reason it should pose a greater danger or be more indomitable than buffalo. The moose is admittedly fairly foreign. On big stags the boarhounds, staghounds, wolfhounds, etc are all proven more adept than wolves, but perhaps it could be argued the dangers of the moose are unique, so like a collie is better able to master a porcupine than a bulldog, maybe too a wolf can better master a moose than a bulldog or boarhound. I don't believe this is true, but I can't say I've heard about bulldogs or boarhounds dealing with moose. I vaguely feel like maybe once I heard about a pitbull attacking a moose and doing ok, but it's an extremely foggy memory where I can't recall hardly any details at all. I strongly suspect a boarhound would be better with moose than a wolf, but I don't know for sure. Bison I am very confident. Im not surprised its the wild west, mainly because laws were not that strict. You could hunt bison with dogs while riding horses and nobody would question it. Nobody would do anything. Also because bison were at their highest point, like white tailed deer which have practically become overgrown rats due to the eradication of predators. You would probably have those people then. Nowadays you’re not allowed to hunt any big game with dogs except deer, and thats strictly in the south. |
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Post by Hardcastle on May 23, 2023 15:34:21 GMT
Yes every trait found in dogs is found in wolves, to a nerfed amateur level. When it comes to any one category the wolf is not top tier. A classic example of "jack of all trades, master of none" is the wolf. In big game subjugation the bulldogs and boarhounds are levels above the wolf. This isn't WHY it picks its battles with weakened compromised and vulnerable prey, rather the opposite, it's wise and clever tendency to pick its battle with weakened and compromised vulnerable prey (often prey it has strategically weakened and compromised over time) has rendered it through evolution an animal that doesn't need to be equipped to deal with healthy prime fit strong prey in a fair close-quarter engagement. It was able to sacrifice propensity for that kind of activity in exchange for other things like elite energy conservation. Most wild animals have done this in some way or another, everyone notes it's "smart" for them to not pick fights that are risky, but then fails to follow through on the maths where if they are "smart" all the time they never have to be made into something that can endure a dumb fight. If they don't use it, they lose it. Overall a very smart approach to wilderness survival, but at the specific task of tackling and subduing large game the wolf is poor relative to the experts. I thought this was a Wyatt post. Lol How dare you... Although I kinda get it because you and Wyatt both are gradually morphing into me, "single white female" style.   If you guys were older you'd know that's a great movie reference. |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2023 15:42:10 GMT
Hunting hooved prey with dogs is looked down upon in North America, with the exception of white tailed deer in southern states because of rogue hunters and ranchers. That may be because they have added wolves to control ungulate populations and so far its working. But at the same time you get a lot of rogue elk hunters which don’t like wolves, or dogs, or anything big that may go after elk. Its like THEY wanna shoot the prey, so anything going after it must be eradicated. I plan on hunting elk but I don’t think that way. Im not gonna try to impress ranchers.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2023 15:43:22 GMT
I thought this was a Wyatt post. Lol How dare you... Although I kinda get it because you and Wyatt both are gradually morphing into me, "single white female" style. If you guys were older you'd know that's a great movie reference. I never thought that anybody would look good with a bowl cut, but here we go. |
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