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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on May 11, 2023 10:19:13 GMT
How about this? How many 16-month-old tigers to beat an adult male BC cougar? Please can Wyatt not answer? Because I wouldn't be surprised if he said one. A 16mo tiger can predate upon more formidable animals but might lose due to size. 2 at most. Remember this isn't the average cougar we're talking about. This is a male cougar from the largest cougar population in the world. A large BC male cougar is undisputedly one of those capable of taking down a fit and completely healthy 500 to 700 kilo American bison. That’s something that is not even debatable anymore seeing that real cougar scientists have expressed their belief in actual documented literature, that the mountain lion can indeed kill full-grown and healthy American bison specimens, regardless of what anyone says (it's not like what anyone else says even matters a little bit, seeing that one group is a set of experts, while the other is not. So there's no question who any human being in their right mind should listen to). I don't believe a 16-month-old tiger could kill a healthy adult bison, that is ridiculous. A 16-month-old tiger would also be kind of inexperienced when you take into account that it wouldn’t have fought many battles. A male BC cougar is undoubtedly superior to a 16-month-old tiger in predatory capabilities, and I doubt "2 at most" would be enough. It would be very explosive and would easily take out one and work on the other. In all honesty, this may sound like a stretch, but I think you might need 3 to 4 to CONSISTENTLY win. Even then, at the bare minimum, one tiger would die in virtually, if not every case. |
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Post by CoolJohnson on May 11, 2023 18:45:01 GMT
A 16mo tiger can predate upon more formidable animals but might lose due to size. 2 at most. Remember this isn't the average cougar we're talking about. This is a male cougar from the largest cougar population in the world. A large BC male cougar is undisputedly one of those capable of taking down a fit and completely healthy 500 to 700 kilo American bison. That’s something that is not even debatable anymore seeing that real cougar scientists have expressed their belief in actual documented literature, that the mountain lion can indeed kill full-grown and healthy American bison specimens, regardless of what anyone says (it's not like what anyone else says even matters a little bit, seeing that one group is a set of experts, while the other is not. So there's no question who any human being in their right mind should listen to). At best, leopards and cougars take down 300-500 kg animals. On top of that, these are weaker animals like cervidae or bovidae (antelope). I guess free-ranging cattle counts, but those are still not as formidable as wild buffalo or bison. A 500-700 kg bovine would be tough even for a lion or tiger. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on May 11, 2023 21:01:49 GMT
Remember this isn't the average cougar we're talking about. This is a male cougar from the largest cougar population in the world. A large BC male cougar is undisputedly one of those capable of taking down a fit and completely healthy 500 to 700 kilo American bison. That’s something that is not even debatable anymore seeing that real cougar scientists have expressed their belief in actual documented literature, that the mountain lion can indeed kill full-grown and healthy American bison specimens, regardless of what anyone says (it's not like what anyone else says even matters a little bit, seeing that one group is a set of experts, while the other is not. So there's no question who any human being in their right mind should listen to). At best, leopards and cougars take down 300-500 kg animals. On top of that, these are weaker animals like cervidae or bovidae (antelope). I guess free-ranging cattle counts, but those are still not as formidable as wild buffalo or bison. A 500-700 kg bovine would be tough even for a lion or tiger. I understand where you're coming from, which is why I have this answer on Quora that proves that a cougar can indeed kill a bison (the cougar in question weighs 100 kg): www.quora.com/Are-there-any-cases-of-cougars-attacking-American-bison/answer/The-SuperCat?ch=10&oid=1477743663569532&share=54d90dc4&srid=hJo9JQ&target_type=answerReal and numerous cougar scientists attest to the cougar’s ability to kill a full-grown American bison in numerous scientific literature and I referenced them. Sorry if it's long, but it’s worth reading. Both male and female tigers REGULARLY kill gaurs (strongest cattle species in terms of muscular power) that weigh more than 1000 kg, so 700 kg isn't the limit for tigers, not even the much smaller tigresses. |
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Post by CoolJohnson on May 11, 2023 22:21:45 GMT
At best, leopards and cougars take down 300-500 kg animals. On top of that, these are weaker animals like cervidae or bovidae (antelope). I guess free-ranging cattle counts, but those are still not as formidable as wild buffalo or bison. A 500-700 kg bovine would be tough even for a lion or tiger. I understand where you're coming from, which is why I have this answer on Quora that proves that a cougar can indeed kill a bison (the cougar in question weighs 100 kg): www.quora.com/Are-there-any-cases-of-cougars-attacking-American-bison/answer/The-SuperCat?ch=10&oid=1477743663569532&share=54d90dc4&srid=hJo9JQ&target_type=answerReal and numerous cougar scientists attest to the cougar’s ability to kill a full-grown American bison in numerous scientific literature and I referenced them. Sorry if it's long, but it’s worth reading. Both male and female tigers REGULARLY kill gaurs (strongest cattle species in terms of muscular power) that weigh more than 1000 kg, so 700 kg isn't the limit for tigers, not even the much smaller tigresses. Ok. I will admit that 700 kg could be possibly the max limit for a leopard or cougar. I am just doubtful that a healthy bison around 500-700 kg would be taken down by a leopard and cougar unless it is badly injured. Wild buffalo or cattle at 500-700 kg can kill or injure lions/tigers. Also, your cases are a bit exaggerated. One of them is ffom the 1700s, so there will be heavy exaggeration for that part. Something as recent as 1944 shows no record of a cougar killing an adult bison. "I do not know, though, of any record of a puma actually killing a full-grown bison."  A more recent study even shows that a cougar never even attacked a single juvenile bison. COUGAR KILLS IN YELLOWSTONE NATIONAL PARK IN 3 DIFFERENT TIME PERIODS.  Species composition of cougar-killed prey, including primary ungulate prey species and other prey across three research phases (phase I: 1987–1993; phase II: 1998–2004; and phase III: 2014–2019; sample sizes of kills detected are indicated in parentheses). www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/cougar.htmThere is documentation of leopards preying on gaur calves, yet nothing on cougars preying on bison calves.  My point here is that if cougars are scared to attempt predation on young bison, then there is a most likely chance that adult bison will be too large/dangerous for them. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on May 11, 2023 23:04:47 GMT
Ok. I will admit that 700 kg could be possibly the max limit for a leopard or cougar. I am just doubtful that a healthy bison around 500-700 kg would be taken down by a leopard and cougar unless it is badly injured. Wild buffalo or cattle at 500-700 kg can kill or injure lions/tigers. Also, your cases are a bit exaggerated. One of them is ffom the 1700s, so there will be heavy exaggeration for that part. Something as recent as 1944 shows no record of a cougar killing an adult bison. "I do not know, though, of any record of a puma actually killing a full-grown bison." A more recent study even shows that a cougar never even attacked a single juvenile bison. COUGAR KILLS IN YELLOWSTONE NATIONAL PARK IN 3 DIFFERENT TIME PERIODS. Species composition of cougar-killed prey, including primary ungulate prey species and other prey across three research phases (phase I: 1987–1993; phase II: 1998–2004; and phase III: 2014–2019; sample sizes of kills detected are indicated in parentheses). www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/cougar.htmThere is documentation of leopards preying on gaur calves, yet nothing on cougars preying on bison calves. My point here is that if cougars are scared to attempt predation on young bison, then there is a most likely chance that adult bison will be too large/dangerous for them. Yes, I too tend to draw the line at 700 kg for a healthy and uncompromised adult specimen. The cases being exaggerated is something that I tried to address in the post. I've seen that "I do not know, though, of any record of a puma actually killing a full-grown bison" a million times. That’s just someone saying "I don't know of any record", not "there has never been any incident." Besides, where that was taken from? Was it a book dedicated to cougars? Because each of the references I listed were books dedicated to cougars with the exception of "Of Bison and Man" which was as the name suggests, dedicated to bison. What is the name of the book that you reference? Can you name the person speaking? Is the person aware of 2 cases of cougars attempting but being killed before they could succeed? They just mentioned that they are not aware of any recorded instance. The guy I quoted didn't just say "I don't know of any record", but did research on past cougar-bison interactions. Keep in mind those 2 cases are the ones that were observed and reported. There might have been several others that took place but never got reported. I actually gave an explanation for why bison appear to be immune to cougar predation towards the end of the post, so this "cougars might be afraid of bison" view is flawed. Anyways, I'll give a far more elaborate explanation in my final answer on the topic that will be out by next week Tuesday. I understand the difficulty you have in believing, but if a tiger can kill a gaur six to seven times its size, for what reason EXACTLY does the concept of a cougar (another big cat) doing the same to a bison (another wild cattle species) at the same prey: predator weight ratio sound strange? |
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Post by Bolushi on May 11, 2023 23:14:35 GMT
A 16mo tiger can predate upon more formidable animals but might lose due to size. 2 at most. Remember this isn't the average cougar we're talking about. This is a male cougar from the largest cougar population in the world. A large BC male cougar is undisputedly one of those capable of taking down a fit and completely healthy 500 to 700 kilo American bison. That’s something that is not even debatable anymore seeing that real cougar scientists have expressed their belief in actual documented literature, that the mountain lion can indeed kill full-grown and healthy American bison specimens, regardless of what anyone says (it's not like what anyone else says even matters a little bit, seeing that one group is a set of experts, while the other is not. So there's no question who any human being in their right mind should listen to). I don't believe a 16-month-old tiger could kill a healthy adult bison, that is ridiculous. A 16-month-old tiger would also be kind of inexperienced when you take into account that it wouldn’t have fought many battles. A male BC cougar is undoubtedly superior to a 16-month-old tiger in predatory capabilities, and I doubt "2 at most" would be enough. It would be very explosive and would easily take out one and work on the other. In all honesty, this may sound like a stretch, but I think you might need 3 to 4 to CONSISTENTLY win. Even then, at the bare minimum, one tiger would die in virtually, if not every case. A 16mo tiger has more mental fortitude than a cougar does to endure such a task but truthfully neither can. CoolJohnson has pretty much hammered the point home that they cannot. CoolJohnson can you find some evidence of a cougar killing an adult hog? |
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Post by Bolushi on May 11, 2023 23:18:21 GMT
Ok. I will admit that 700 kg could be possibly the max limit for a leopard or cougar. I am just doubtful that a healthy bison around 500-700 kg would be taken down by a leopard and cougar unless it is badly injured. Wild buffalo or cattle at 500-700 kg can kill or injure lions/tigers. Also, your cases are a bit exaggerated. One of them is ffom the 1700s, so there will be heavy exaggeration for that part. Something as recent as 1944 shows no record of a cougar killing an adult bison. "I do not know, though, of any record of a puma actually killing a full-grown bison." A more recent study even shows that a cougar never even attacked a single juvenile bison. COUGAR KILLS IN YELLOWSTONE NATIONAL PARK IN 3 DIFFERENT TIME PERIODS. Species composition of cougar-killed prey, including primary ungulate prey species and other prey across three research phases (phase I: 1987–1993; phase II: 1998–2004; and phase III: 2014–2019; sample sizes of kills detected are indicated in parentheses). www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/cougar.htmThere is documentation of leopards preying on gaur calves, yet nothing on cougars preying on bison calves. My point here is that if cougars are scared to attempt predation on young bison, then there is a most likely chance that adult bison will be too large/dangerous for them. Yes, I too tend to draw the line at 700 kg for a healthy and uncompromised adult specimen. The cases being exaggerated is something that I tried to address in the post. I've seen that "I do not know, though, of any record of a puma actually killing a full-grown bison" a million times. That’s just someone saying "I don't know of any record", not "there has never been any incident." Besides, where that was taken from? Was it a book dedicated to cougars? Because each of the references I listed were books dedicated to cougars with the exception of "Of Bison and Man" which was as the name suggests, dedicated to bison. What is the name of the book that you reference? Can you name the person speaking? Is the person aware of 2 cases of cougars attempting but being killed before they could succeed? They just mentioned that they are not aware of any recorded instance. The guy I quoted didn't just say "I don't know of any record", but did research on past cougar-bison interactions. Keep in mind those 2 cases are the ones that were observed and reported. There might have been several others that took place but never got reported. I actually gave an explanation for why bison appear to be immune to cougar predation towards the end of the post, so this "cougars might be afraid of bison" view is flawed. Anyways, I'll give a far more elaborate explanation in my final answer on the topic that will be out by next week Tuesday. I understand the difficulty you have in believing, but if a tiger can kill a gaur six to seven times its size, for what reason EXACTLY does the concept of a cougar (another big cat) doing the same to a bison (another wild cattle species) at the same prey: predator weight ratio sound strange? Because tigers are proportionally tougher, the biggest difference though is mental fortitude. And prime gaur is a rare undertaking for a tiger too, dare I say very rare for either gender. Since they can live up to 20 years in deep tiger country. They don't just cross their hooves and hope a tiger doesn't try, they destroy them. A tigress is more bold than the largest male cougars on record, that is a fact. They are more willing to try to achieve big things. That is at the same weight. However since a big cougar is still fundamentally a cougar it might try but it will try, get beaten up a bit and give up. Leopards hang in there more, which is why they have far more cattle kills than cougars who very rarely do. However a large cougar of a rare caliber might be able to achieve it very rarely. Also I think a bison >> a gaur in the offensive department but << in the durability department. A cougar can't hurt cattle of any kind unless they kill it, there's no real damage just a kill if the cow cannot defend itself enough, and since all bison are wild and subjective to ideal anti-predator breeding practices that tosses the cougar out as a threat whatsoever. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on May 11, 2023 23:30:42 GMT
Remember this isn't the average cougar we're talking about. This is a male cougar from the largest cougar population in the world. A large BC male cougar is undisputedly one of those capable of taking down a fit and completely healthy 500 to 700 kilo American bison. That’s something that is not even debatable anymore seeing that real cougar scientists have expressed their belief in actual documented literature, that the mountain lion can indeed kill full-grown and healthy American bison specimens, regardless of what anyone says (it's not like what anyone else says even matters a little bit, seeing that one group is a set of experts, while the other is not. So there's no question who any human being in their right mind should listen to). I don't believe a 16-month-old tiger could kill a healthy adult bison, that is ridiculous. A 16-month-old tiger would also be kind of inexperienced when you take into account that it wouldn’t have fought many battles. A male BC cougar is undoubtedly superior to a 16-month-old tiger in predatory capabilities, and I doubt "2 at most" would be enough. It would be very explosive and would easily take out one and work on the other. In all honesty, this may sound like a stretch, but I think you might need 3 to 4 to CONSISTENTLY win. Even then, at the bare minimum, one tiger would die in virtually, if not every case. A 16mo tiger has more mental fortitude than a cougar does to endure such a task but truthfully neither can. CoolJohnson has pretty much hammered the point home that they cannot. CoolJohnson can you find some evidence of a cougar killing an adult hog? Come on! Be realistic, how could a 16-month-old tiger have more mental fortitude than a 100 kg BC cougar? Honestly, that's downplaying the cougar to a ridiculous degree. Yeah, only one of them can't do it, and that's the tiger. I actually already showed what ACTUAL COUGAR SCIENTISTS have to say regarding all of this. Whatever anybody else says counts for absolutely nothing, is baseless and unfounded. And I actually haven't even quoted everything at my disposal. CoolJohnson simply referenced someone saying they aren’t aware of any account, not them saying that no account has ever taken place or can ever take place. Not criticising Johnson in any way, but what he referenced isn't even a literature devoted to cougars. Plus, according to Johnson, that was from 1944. The book I referenced was written in 1999, by someone who did far more research into any relationship between cougars and bison that might have been. So, Johnson's "evidence" might actually be the outdated one. Is that person speaking aware of any case of a rattlesnake killing a bison? Oh, I guess not. Therefore we now know that bison are immune to rattlesnake venom. Do you see that? Oh, because we hadn't physically seen microorganisms, electrons, atoms until microscopes were invented, that means all the while they never existed, and it's the day humanity invented microscopes that they came into existence. Verdict: Knowledge is not defined by what humans know at the present moment. What humans know at any given moment could be a very small part of all there is to know, or a distorted view of what there is to know. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on May 11, 2023 23:32:46 GMT
Yes, I too tend to draw the line at 700 kg for a healthy and uncompromised adult specimen. The cases being exaggerated is something that I tried to address in the post. I've seen that "I do not know, though, of any record of a puma actually killing a full-grown bison" a million times. That’s just someone saying "I don't know of any record", not "there has never been any incident." Besides, where that was taken from? Was it a book dedicated to cougars? Because each of the references I listed were books dedicated to cougars with the exception of "Of Bison and Man" which was as the name suggests, dedicated to bison. What is the name of the book that you reference? Can you name the person speaking? Is the person aware of 2 cases of cougars attempting but being killed before they could succeed? They just mentioned that they are not aware of any recorded instance. The guy I quoted didn't just say "I don't know of any record", but did research on past cougar-bison interactions. Keep in mind those 2 cases are the ones that were observed and reported. There might have been several others that took place but never got reported. I actually gave an explanation for why bison appear to be immune to cougar predation towards the end of the post, so this "cougars might be afraid of bison" view is flawed. Anyways, I'll give a far more elaborate explanation in my final answer on the topic that will be out by next week Tuesday. I understand the difficulty you have in believing, but if a tiger can kill a gaur six to seven times its size, for what reason EXACTLY does the concept of a cougar (another big cat) doing the same to a bison (another wild cattle species) at the same prey: predator weight ratio sound strange? Because tigers are proportionally tougher, the biggest difference though is mental fortitude. And prime gaur is a rare undertaking for a tiger too, dare I say very rare for either gender. Since they can live up to 20 years in deep tiger country. They don't just cross their hooves and hope a tiger doesn't try, they destroy them. A tigress is more bold than the largest male cougars on record, that is a fact. They are more willing to try to achieve big things. That is at the same weight. However since a big cougar is still fundamentally a cougar it might try but it will try, get beaten up a bit and give up. Leopards hang in there more, which is why they have far more cattle kills than cougars who very rarely do. However a large cougar of a rare caliber might be able to achieve it very rarely. Also I think a bison >> a gaur in the offensive department but << in the durability department. A cougar can't hurt cattle of any kind unless they kill it, there's no real damage just a kill if the cow cannot defend itself enough, and since all bison are wild and subjective to ideal anti-predator breeding practices that tosses the cougar out as a threat whatsoever. TBH, most if not all of what you said is pure cougar down talk and it's actually toxic. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on May 11, 2023 23:37:14 GMT
Anyway, this isn't the focus of the thread. I'd like for us to just wrap this up quickly and move on with the main thread.
Anyways, 1 16-month-old tiger isn't doing shit to a 100 kg BC cougar.
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on May 11, 2023 23:44:50 GMT
Yes, I too tend to draw the line at 700 kg for a healthy and uncompromised adult specimen. The cases being exaggerated is something that I tried to address in the post. I've seen that "I do not know, though, of any record of a puma actually killing a full-grown bison" a million times. That’s just someone saying "I don't know of any record", not "there has never been any incident." Besides, where that was taken from? Was it a book dedicated to cougars? Because each of the references I listed were books dedicated to cougars with the exception of "Of Bison and Man" which was as the name suggests, dedicated to bison. What is the name of the book that you reference? Can you name the person speaking? Is the person aware of 2 cases of cougars attempting but being killed before they could succeed? They just mentioned that they are not aware of any recorded instance. The guy I quoted didn't just say "I don't know of any record", but did research on past cougar-bison interactions. Keep in mind those 2 cases are the ones that were observed and reported. There might have been several others that took place but never got reported. I actually gave an explanation for why bison appear to be immune to cougar predation towards the end of the post, so this "cougars might be afraid of bison" view is flawed. Anyways, I'll give a far more elaborate explanation in my final answer on the topic that will be out by next week Tuesday. I understand the difficulty you have in believing, but if a tiger can kill a gaur six to seven times its size, for what reason EXACTLY does the concept of a cougar (another big cat) doing the same to a bison (another wild cattle species) at the same prey: predator weight ratio sound strange? Because tigers are proportionally tougher, the biggest difference though is mental fortitude. And prime gaur is a rare undertaking for a tiger too, dare I say very rare for either gender. Since they can live up to 20 years in deep tiger country. They don't just cross their hooves and hope a tiger doesn't try, they destroy them. A tigress is more bold than the largest male cougars on record, that is a fact. They are more willing to try to achieve big things. That is at the same weight. However since a big cougar is still fundamentally a cougar it might try but it will try, get beaten up a bit and give up. Leopards hang in there more, which is why they have far more cattle kills than cougars who very rarely do. However a large cougar of a rare caliber might be able to achieve it very rarely. Also I think a bison >> a gaur in the offensive department but << in the durability department. A cougar can't hurt cattle of any kind unless they kill it, there's no real damage just a kill if the cow cannot defend itself enough, and since all bison are wild and subjective to ideal anti-predator breeding practices that tosses the cougar out as a threat whatsoever. I digress a bit. So, then, you agree that a tiger would whip a dogo argentino or cane corso or the vast majority of gripping dogs at parity right? You do realise what you say in this thread has far-reaching consequences right? That they affect other AVA discussions that we have? If a tiger is IN YOUR VERY OWN WORDS "proportionately much stronger" then a dogo argentino that struggles to beat a cougar at parity (and in some cases can even lose. All according to you, everything I'm saying is just me quoting what I've seen you say on Quora and in PowerPoints) is doomed against said tiger right? Which nullifies your claim that jaguars are the only big cat that can consistently beat a working gripping dog/bulldog/boarhound at or near parity. Wait and think for a second. Would I have judged fairly based on your own personal views? |
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Post by Bolushi on May 12, 2023 0:25:17 GMT
Because tigers are proportionally tougher, the biggest difference though is mental fortitude. And prime gaur is a rare undertaking for a tiger too, dare I say very rare for either gender. Since they can live up to 20 years in deep tiger country. They don't just cross their hooves and hope a tiger doesn't try, they destroy them. A tigress is more bold than the largest male cougars on record, that is a fact. They are more willing to try to achieve big things. That is at the same weight. However since a big cougar is still fundamentally a cougar it might try but it will try, get beaten up a bit and give up. Leopards hang in there more, which is why they have far more cattle kills than cougars who very rarely do. However a large cougar of a rare caliber might be able to achieve it very rarely. Also I think a bison >> a gaur in the offensive department but << in the durability department. A cougar can't hurt cattle of any kind unless they kill it, there's no real damage just a kill if the cow cannot defend itself enough, and since all bison are wild and subjective to ideal anti-predator breeding practices that tosses the cougar out as a threat whatsoever. I digress a bit. So, then, you agree that a tiger would whip a dogo argentino or cane corso or the vast majority of gripping dogs at parity right? You do realise what you say in this thread has far-reaching consequences right? That they affect other AVA discussions that we have? If a tiger is IN YOUR VERY OWN WORDS "proportionately much stronger" then a dogo argentino that struggles to beat a cougar at parity (and in some cases can even lose. All according to you, everything I'm saying is just me quoting what I've seen you say on Quora and in PowerPoints) is doomed against said tiger right? Which nullifies your claim that jaguars are the only big cat that can consistently beat a working gripping dog/bulldog/boarhound at or near parity. Wait and think for a second. Would I have judged fairly based on your own personal views? The difference is there is no parity between a working gripping dog and a tiger/lion. I was talking within the limits of reality. It applies to them too, in all likelihood. However it is not proportionally much stronger. That is false. I didn't say that. |
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Post by Bolushi on May 12, 2023 0:29:50 GMT
Because tigers are proportionally tougher, the biggest difference though is mental fortitude. And prime gaur is a rare undertaking for a tiger too, dare I say very rare for either gender. Since they can live up to 20 years in deep tiger country. They don't just cross their hooves and hope a tiger doesn't try, they destroy them. A tigress is more bold than the largest male cougars on record, that is a fact. They are more willing to try to achieve big things. That is at the same weight. However since a big cougar is still fundamentally a cougar it might try but it will try, get beaten up a bit and give up. Leopards hang in there more, which is why they have far more cattle kills than cougars who very rarely do. However a large cougar of a rare caliber might be able to achieve it very rarely. Also I think a bison >> a gaur in the offensive department but << in the durability department. A cougar can't hurt cattle of any kind unless they kill it, there's no real damage just a kill if the cow cannot defend itself enough, and since all bison are wild and subjective to ideal anti-predator breeding practices that tosses the cougar out as a threat whatsoever. TBH, most if not all of what you said is pure cougar down talk and it's actually toxic. If I were down talking cougars I would've said no cougar ever could kill cattle of any kind and violently defended my point. However since on rare occasion giant Patagonian toms will succeed I'm not going to do that. Maybe on rare occasion giant American/Canadian toms would kill bison? They're not much tougher than free-range cattle. Not that cougars prey on free-range cattle at all besides the 1 or 2 instances we have of that happening. |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2023 6:51:00 GMT
Ok. I will admit that 700 kg could be possibly the max limit for a leopard or cougar. I am just doubtful that a healthy bison around 500-700 kg would be taken down by a leopard and cougar unless it is badly injured. Wild buffalo or cattle at 500-700 kg can kill or injure lions/tigers. Also, your cases are a bit exaggerated. One of them is ffom the 1700s, so there will be heavy exaggeration for that part. Something as recent as 1944 shows no record of a cougar killing an adult bison. "I do not know, though, of any record of a puma actually killing a full-grown bison." A more recent study even shows that a cougar never even attacked a single juvenile bison. COUGAR KILLS IN YELLOWSTONE NATIONAL PARK IN 3 DIFFERENT TIME PERIODS. Species composition of cougar-killed prey, including primary ungulate prey species and other prey across three research phases (phase I: 1987–1993; phase II: 1998–2004; and phase III: 2014–2019; sample sizes of kills detected are indicated in parentheses). www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/cougar.htmThere is documentation of leopards preying on gaur calves, yet nothing on cougars preying on bison calves. My point here is that if cougars are scared to attempt predation on young bison, then there is a most likely chance that adult bison will be too large/dangerous for them. He's full of shit. A bison would maul a lion to death, let alone a cougar. Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on May 12, 2023 8:05:22 GMT
I digress a bit. So, then, you agree that a tiger would whip a dogo argentino or cane corso or the vast majority of gripping dogs at parity right? You do realise what you say in this thread has far-reaching consequences right? That they affect other AVA discussions that we have? If a tiger is IN YOUR VERY OWN WORDS "proportionately much stronger" then a dogo argentino that struggles to beat a cougar at parity (and in some cases can even lose. All according to you, everything I'm saying is just me quoting what I've seen you say on Quora and in PowerPoints) is doomed against said tiger right? Which nullifies your claim that jaguars are the only big cat that can consistently beat a working gripping dog/bulldog/boarhound at or near parity. Wait and think for a second. Would I have judged fairly based on your own personal views? The difference is there is no parity between a working gripping dog and a tiger/lion. I was talking within the limits of reality. It applies to them too, in all likelihood. However it is not proportionally much stronger. That is false. I didn't say that. Well, I was talking about if you scaled them down to a gripping dog's mass, like if you took a very young 45 or 50 kg tiger for example. On Quora, you actually said "much tougher" (I can recall you saying that), that lions, tigers and jaguars could take on animals that a cougar their size could not because they "evolved" to do it, while cougars didn't. Maybe you've changed your mind now. |
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