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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2023 22:05:27 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2023 3:49:48 GMT
Bears are better fighters than all cats besides lions. Bears are inherently superior and more successful, being a prey animal and all.
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Post by CoolJohnson on Feb 14, 2023 4:51:26 GMT
If we are going by the rank of best to worst fighters of a pound for pound comparison, it would be like this:
Mustelids
Bears
Felids
Hyenas/Canids
Pinnipeds (except Walrus)
These are all the carnivores that are above the 20 kg mark. I have to do more reserch on the other carnivores.
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Post by Hardcastle on Feb 14, 2023 6:38:46 GMT
CoolJohnsonDisagree. Felids are truly the worst fighters. Hyenas and canines together makes no sense because they don't fight the same at all. And what do you mean "except walrus"? Walruses aren't shit compared to sea lions and elephant seals when it comes to fighting. I sense an ape's "hand bias" to your grading. I'd say - Mustelids Ursids Canids Pinnipeds Hyaenids Felids That's being humble and levelling canids out to an average based on their variety. "Bulldoggids" would be number 1.
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Post by CoolJohnson on Feb 14, 2023 8:23:20 GMT
CoolJohnsonDisagree. Felids are truly the worst fighters. Hyenas and canines together makes no sense because they don't fight the same at all. And what do you mean "except walrus"? Walruses aren't shit compared to sea lions and elephant seals when it comes to fighting. I sense an ape's "hand bias" to your grading. I'd say - Mustelids Ursids Canids Pinnipeds Hyaenids Felids That's being humble and levelling canids out to an average based on their variety. "Bulldoggids" would be number 1. Wrong. Canids can get killed off the most easily of the predators. Hyenas have good defence but bad offense, so a tie. Wolverines seem harder to kill for mountain lions than larger wolves. They are number one, but that also indicates a canine is truly the most vulnerable animal on a pound for pound basis. Seals get predated on by Lions on the coast, but also seem to predate on sharks in the sea. I guess the sea lion and elephant seal might be the exceptions. Bulldoggids seem to die or get owned when the hunter can't kill or incapacitate the predator in anyway. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2023 8:25:18 GMT
When they don't die or get owned then excuses are made.
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Post by Hardcastle on Feb 14, 2023 10:35:04 GMT
Canids can get killed off the most easily of the predators. Hyenas have good defence but bad offense, so a tie. Wolverines seem harder to kill for mountain lions than larger wolves. They are number one, but that also indicates a canine is truly the most vulnerable animal on a pound for pound basis. You have to focus on only the most frail canines for that to be true, and then you should do the same with frail felines. You'll find they're even more frail. Focus on servals and margays and black footed cats and etc, which die in seconds from having their ribcage crushed by one bite from a dog their own size. Why not characterise "felines" by their performance? If you are going to do that with canines? Many canids are on the less durable side due to specialised long distance running adaptations. There's no indication that the durable canids are less durable than anything else. Even mustelids and bears. The skin is as thick, the bones are as robust. More robust. The most robust bones proportionately, on record, are roman era bulldogs. Sloth bears lead among wild animals, other bears, badgers and wolverines rank highly and just below, then jaguars and lions and tigers and leopards, then hyenas, then wolves, and finally foxes and cheetahs and other small cats are way down the bottom. There are actually many dogs more robust than most wild predators, including all the big cats. The wolf isn't "average" for canines, it's far far below average and an unusually gracile canine. Felines do have deceptively fat forearms to facilitate their dexterity. This little detail gets people way way too excited. Yeah I don't think it's the prime males being targeted, which would literally shake a lion completely out of it's skin if they got a hold of it. Elephant seal skull compared to grizzly  Tiger compared to polar bear.  With a direct comparison unavailable, you can instead just do the math. These behemoth pinnipeds have nothing to fear from lions. But sure their diminutive females and children might. Totally false, where? You clearly don't understand what they do or what they are for. They incapacitate the target, humans merely then put it out of it's misery. The dog takes the fight out of the quarry, that is it's purpose, crucially it is it's ONLY purpose, and as a result they are by far the most fight specialised animal on the planet and lord over this contest. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2023 12:41:41 GMT
I mean in terms of viability, abilities, success, etc. Not in terms of who would win in a fight.
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Post by CoolJohnson on Feb 16, 2023 22:12:46 GMT
I pointed out this for animals earlier on this thread. This means I am not commenting on every felid since I am aware that small cats are mostly weak. So I used the range of Lynx to Panthera genus. The problem with pinnipeds is that they are good at moving in water but slow and fat on land, making them vulnerable to predation by terrestrial carnivores. " Seals are prime targets for these big cats, being slow to manoeuvre on land and rich in fat" www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/28/lions-adapted-hunt-seals-seabirds-namibia-studyA lot of the pinnipeds you showed were three to five times the size of the bears. Even if the Lioness were going for females, the seals would still be 120 kg, so not far from the Lioness. Not to mention that seals seem easier to kill in comparison to terrestrial animals like leopards and hyenas since they cannot fight back on land. So they lose to terrestrial carnivores on a pound for pound scenario. Wolves are above most dogs, so that means 95-99% of dogs are bad fighters apart from the bulldogs. Even then, the bulldog would still lose since it cannot use its arms. Robustness can only work for so long if the animal can utilize its forlimbs or even hindlimbs. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2023 22:33:24 GMT
Canids can get killed off the most easily of the predators. Hyenas have good defence but bad offense, so a tie. Wolverines seem harder to kill for mountain lions than larger wolves. They are number one, but that also indicates a canine is truly the most vulnerable animal on a pound for pound basis. You have to focus on only the most frail canines for that to be true, and then you should do the same with frail felines. You'll find they're even more frail. Focus on servals and margays and black footed cats and etc, which die in seconds from having their ribcage crushed by one bite from a dog their own size. Why not characterise "felines" by their performance? If you are going to do that with canines? Many canids are on the less durable side due to specialised long distance running adaptations. There's no indication that the durable canids are less durable than anything else. Even mustelids and bears. The skin is as thick, the bones are as robust. More robust. The most robust bones proportionately, on record, are roman era bulldogs. Sloth bears lead among wild animals, other bears, badgers and wolverines rank highly and just below, then jaguars and lions and tigers and leopards, then hyenas, then wolves, and finally foxes and cheetahs and other small cats are way down the bottom. There are actually many dogs more robust than most wild predators, including all the big cats. The wolf isn't "average" for canines, it's far far below average and an unusually gracile canine. Felines do have deceptively fat forearms to facilitate their dexterity. This little detail gets people way way too excited. Yeah I don't think it's the prime males being targeted, which would literally shake a lion completely out of it's skin if they got a hold of it. Elephant seal skull compared to grizzly Tiger compared to polar bear. With a direct comparison unavailable, you can instead just do the math. These behemoth pinnipeds have nothing to fear from lions. But sure their diminutive females and children might. Totally false, where? You clearly don't understand what they do or what they are for. They incapacitate the target, humans merely then put it out of it's misery. The dog takes the fight out of the quarry, that is it's purpose, crucially it is it's ONLY purpose, and as a result they are by far the most fight specialised animal on the planet and lord over this contest. Sorry but the wolf I would definitely not say is low. I love wolves, and think they are cool. They are what made the dog a specialized canid. But its more you put them below everything else with cheetahs and foxes, wolves are not even in the same tier as cheetahs. Wolves are far superior to cheetahs and cheetahs have proven a complete embarrassment to the cat family. Bulldogs are what you get if you took a wolf, took its rule in subjugation in hunting and bred that trait to be specialized in it. That being said, that depends on the cat. Lynxes and bobcats can be killed by dogs yes, and other cats but whether to say they’ll beat a jaguar or a snow leopard, no. Snow leopards have fended off packs of wolves and packs of feral dogs, and i’d consider wolves and feral dogs to be in the same league as both are gracile, diverse big game hunters with great endurance. They can defend themselves very well and have impressive predation feats. Jaguars are actually native to North America but they’ve gotten so low in populations its not even funny. Jaguars though, have experience in fighting caiman and are extremely strong and specialized as cats. Cats are amazing- and that is a fact. The issue is though when erasing canids as something more than just these weak, spineless cowards. They are not just that and extremely capable. In defense, that goes to the Crocodilians. In fighting with Carnivorans I would go to Big Cats personally, but im not gonna doubt canids. They have used some impressive combative skills. Mustelids are incredibly good fighters, and can persuade predators not to mess with them, though this doesn’t always work. My take is a tie between the two. I favor felines and canines equally. But fuck cheetahs, and don’t get me started with the overrated cougars. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2023 4:03:46 GMT
Bears are better fighters than all cats besides lions. Bears are inherently superior and more successful, being a prey animal and all. That's an interesting take how you say bears are better fighters than all cats BESIDES LIONS. This is obviously in a P4P context. But doesn't that imply too large a gap between the other big cats and lion? So your ordering would be: Lion All bear subspecies All remaining panthera? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2023 5:39:03 GMT
Bears are better fighters than all cats besides lions. Bears are inherently superior and more successful, being a prey animal and all. That's an interesting take how you say bears are better fighters than all cats BESIDES LIONS. This is obviously in a P4P context. But doesn't that imply too large a gap between the other big cats and lion? So your ordering would be: Lion All bear subspecies All remaining panthera? I think if the lion is 100% then sloth bears are 98%, spectacled bears are 98%, grizzlies are 75%, polar bears are 65%, black bears are 45% and pandas are 40%. Then sun bears are somewhere. Jaguars are 80%, tigers are 75%, Persian leopards are 65%, normal leopards are 25%, cougars are 20%. I think the problem here in hindsight is not my placements but my percentage system, oh well. So ''best vs best'' we have lion, sloth bear & spectacled bear, jaguar. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Feb 21, 2023 6:21:57 GMT
Even though I fully subscribe to the idea male Lions are adapted and specialised for combat, it is still feline combat, which is it's own specific contest. Almost like a niche martial art.
When cats fight, lions included, they spend a lot of time sizing eachother up and resting for extended periods between extremely brief flurries of frenzied noisy activity. Their fighting reflects their assassination style of offense, and also their "bluff" "don't f'ing touch me" style of defense. So they're standing around looking at eachother making a hell of a lot of noise to try and intimidate the other guy and prevent him from attacking, lashing out with ouch-inducing paw swipes, while looking for an opening to try and maybe launch an assassination attempt on their foe when his focus wanes.
They don't grow a lung and suddenly have high stamina just because they're fighting. No they have special low-stamina stop/start cat fights in tune with the animal they are. Whether it's lions or alley cats. They spend an insane amount of time just laying around looking at eachother and making noises during fights.
At best a wild cat can persuade a non-cat opponent to play their "sport". They can do this by threatening the other animal with their savage display of snarls and hisses and paw swipes and etc. If they can ward an opponent off and keep them at a distance, they can potentially formulate a decisive assassination. Many hunter testimonies through the ages speak of how much more at risk a hunting dog is if it stands back on a cat, and how it actually is safer to just rush in, seize hold and press the assault. That's pressing a fight on the cat that it's not built for, like going for a double leg take down on a TaeKwonDo practicioner. He'll be like "hey no fairsies, that's cheating" and be useless without the space he needs to execute his spinning reverse axe kick or whaetever, and that's what cats are like against bulldog types.
Of course, that's when they're close enough to the same size. Small bulldogs attacking a big lion are just going to get killed, so then you start wanting stand-offish "cur" dogs but they have to be very good at evading.
But then we have bears. Very difficult animals to kill, not so perturbed by a few scratches, big and strong enough to physically match a lion (and then some), and can sustain a relentless attack in a fight while taking damage. Bad time for a lion, as fighters I think they are outmatched by bears, even if they are fight-specialised cats. I maintain cats are inherently poor fighters, despite the "oohs and ahhhs" their savage noisy displays and frenzied angry movements elicit. That's exactly what they're designed to do- look scary, and it works on some animals and works on some people who swear they are the chuck norrises of the animal kingdom after seeing them move around and snarl and throw some paw swipe combos.
But it's pretty dumb when you know about actual fighting and how wasting energy trying to posture and scare your opponent is stupid, how having poor stamina is impossibly detrimental for fight success, how being deathly terrified of getting hurt is not a mentality a fighter can have, etc etc. Their attributes aren't good fighting attributes. They are anti-fighting attributes. Techniques and strategies to avoid fighting. Even killing quickly is a technique to hopefully avoid fighting.
You know who sucks at killing quickly? Bears. And that just means they are comfortable taking their time and trading blows. Go ahead and fight back, they don't mind. They're comfortable easing into a fight like it's a nice warm bath.
I actually think brown bear vs Lion isn't that close, but maybe black bear vs lion CAN BE due to black bears being scaredy cats who shirk at conflict.
That is playing into the felines hands, believing and respecting the bluff is the best way to set yourself up for failure against a cat. Give them the time and space to actually maybe pull off a chuck norris spinning roundhouse that might actually work. Generally though if push comes to shove a bear will outfight a cat, a dog will outfight a cat and a mustelid will outfight a cat. A pinniped also would outfight a cat if it came down to trading blows. Nearly everything would.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2023 6:28:24 GMT
Even though I fully subscribe to the idea male Lions are adapted and specialised for combat, it is still feline combat, which is it's own specific contest. Almost like a niche martial art. When cats fight, lions included, they spend a lot of time sizing eachother up and resting for extended periods between extremely brief flurries of frenzied noisy activity. Their fighting reflects their assassination style of offense, and also their "bluff" "don't f'ing touch me" style of defense. So they're standing around looking at eachother making a hell of a lot of noise to try and intimidate the other guy and prevent him from attacking, lashing out with ouch-inducing paw swipes, while looking for an opening to try and maybe launch an assassination attempt on their foe when his focus wanes. They don't grow a lung and suddenly have high stamina just because they're fighting. No they have special low-stamina stop/start cat fights in tune with the animal they are. Whether it's lions or alley cats. They spend an insane amount of time just laying around looking at eachother and making noises during fights. At best a wild cat can persuade a non-cat opponent to play their "sport". They can do this by threatening the other animal with their savage display of snarls and hisses and paw swipes and etc. If they can ward an opponent off and keep them at a distance, they can potentially formulate a decisive assassination. Many hunter testimonies through the ages speak of how much more at risk a hunting dog is if it stands back on a cat, and how it actually is safer to just rush in, seize hold and press the assault. That's pressing a fight on the cat that it's not built for, like going for a double leg take down on a TaeKwonDo practicioner. He'll be like "hey no fairsies, that's cheating" and be useless without the space he needs to execute his spinning reverse axe kick or whaetever, and that's what cats are like against bulldog types. Of course, that's when they're close enough to the same size. Small bulldogs attacking a big lion are just going to get killed, so then you start wanting stand-offish "cur" dogs but they have to be very good at evading. But then we have bears. Very difficult animals to kill, not so perturbed by a few scratches, big and strong enough to physically match a lion (and then some), and can sustain a relentless attack in a fight while taking damage. Bad time for a lion, as fighters I think they are outmatched by bears, even if they are fight-specialised cats. I maintain cats are inherently poor fighters, despite the "oohs and ahhhs" their savage noisy displays and frenzied angry movements elicit. That's exactly what they're designed to do- look scary, and it works on some animals and works on some people who swear they are the chuck norrises of the animal kingdom after seeing them move around and snarl and throw some paw swipe combos. But it's pretty dumb when you know about actual fighting and how wasting energy trying to posture and scare your opponent is stupid, how having poor stamina is impossibly detrimental for fight success, how being deathly terrified of getting hurt is not a mentality a fighter can have, etc etc. Their attributes aren't good fighting attributes. They are anti-fighting attributes. Techniques and strategies to avoid fighting. Even killing quickly is a technique to hopefully avoid fighting. You know who sucks at killing quickly? Bears. And that just means they are comfortable taking their time and trading blows. Go ahead and fight back, they don't mind. They're comfortable easing into a fight like it's a nice warm bath. I actually think brown bear vs Lion isn't that close, but maybe black bear vs lion CAN BE due to black bears being scaredy cats who shirk at conflict. That is playing into the felines hands, believing and respecting the bluff is the best way to set yourself up for failure against a cat. Give them the time and space to actually maybe pull off a chuck norris spinning roundhouse that might actually work. Generally though if push comes to shove a bear will outfight a cat, a dog will outfight a cat and a mustelid will outfight a cat. A pinniped also would outfight a cat if it came down to trading blows. Nearly everything would. If ''dog'' beats a parity cat then how would a German Shepherd do against a cougar or leopard? |
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Post by Hardcastle on Feb 21, 2023 6:52:02 GMT
Probably badly. Cats are still deadly killers. Extremely deadly killers. The deadliest. So they are akin to a guy who has no stamina, no fighting ability, is scared of fighting, hates it, has no combative composure or toughness or heart, BUT has a monumental knock out punch and a very intimidating angry looking face with crazy eyes.
If you are prone to being intimidated, this bad fighting guy could be very very very dangerous indeed. If you're gonna stand back and be like "shit... he seems crazy, I don't know if I should fight this guy, ummm..." with a worried look on your face all nervous, and give him time to breathe and wind up his telegraphed KO and aim it directly towards your stupid forehead, you're in danger.
Continental herders have never given me any confidence when it comes to dealing with animals. I frankly find it downright mysterious how well they do engaging with humans. It's almost like it just gets trained into them and their eagerness to please and perform the objective overrides their normal instincts.
They NEVER perform well in dog fights and from what I've seen never perform well against other animals either. They stand back, look worried and bark when they see something like a cougar (I've actually seen a GSD interacting with a cougar on youtube), and they don't even have the shrewd evasive urgency of curs or proper herding dogs (collies, kelpies and heelers) or spitz or even scenthounds. They really hate getting hurt, I couldn't count the number of times I've seen a GSD actually screaming horrible because it was being bitten by something. They're kind of perfectly poised to get fucked up by a cougar or leopard. Hypothetically if they pushed the pace and were willing to take some superficial scratches they should be able to rely on dog qualities and do well, but they just don't seem to have it in them.
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