pat
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Post by pat on Feb 21, 2023 23:36:24 GMT
Oh yea Jagarundis and margays are absolutely up there as well. A bit too small to do anything impressive but frankly ocelots and fishing cats underachieve predatory feat wise relative to the lynx genus and caracals which are definetely less robust but seem to be built for speed and explosion rather than strength. (With the ability to jump 10+ feet for bobcats and caracals). Never seen ocelots or fishing cats take down 100+ pound deer/antelope which bobcats and caracals have been notroious for probably because they don't have the speed to catch such a fast prey. I guess a fight could be interesting in that the ocelot/fishing cat can overpower the bobcat/caracal unless the bobcat/caracal catches it early with its superior explosion. I'd suggest an ocelot or fishing cat would be too strong in the grapple and survive the initial attack. They seem too stocky and robust for a lynx or caracal to beat. Lynxes in particular have shown to be exceptionally underwhelming, falling victim to fishers, lone coyotes and losing to terriers half their size. I don't think an ocelot or fishing cat would go out like that. Ocelots and fishing cats have a wide array of small game to take out and fewer deer, I think if they tried they'd actually be doing it more frequently and perhaps evolve a little larger as a result. Lynxes are small game specialists which is why they haven't gotten larger to exploit deer as them killing deer is exceedingly rare. You should join the board... done! I believe its mostly canadian lynx that have these lowlights? Don't get me wrong, canadian lynx are cool cats too but they are mostly small game specialists and are dominated by bobcats where they coexist. Despite what people think, bobcat are actually larger than canadian lynx if we look at the largest populations where bobcats would dominate them. I'd doubt a large male bobcat would fall to any of these outside of terriers but I'd doubt they'd lose to terriers half their size. Don't get me wrong terriers are very strong as well but them taking badgers already puts them on a different tier. although i'm interested in how a terrier does against a fishing cat or ocelot. From what i've seen coyotes do dominate bobcats mainly due to size. Interestingly some of the northeastern bobcats get absolutely huge 35+ lbs as they specialize on large prey. I believe a new hampshire hunting record pegged their average at over 30 pounds which the largest ocelots "only" average about 25 pounds . This would roughly correspond to 1-2 weight classes in human fighting terms and the bobcat may be able to compensate for some of that weakness with size. Here is a massive 35-40 pounder that looks like an eurasian lynx www.newscentermaine.com/article/news/local/amazing-images-of-large-bobcat-captured-in-walepole/97-557504341The main danger would be those powerful hindlegs which could propel the bobcat to very high jumps. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Feb 22, 2023 0:04:23 GMT
I've always considered CL's like miniature Jags and Ocelots like miniature leopards, but then the rest, including Lynxes, basically like overgrown housecats.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2023 0:24:05 GMT
I'd suggest an ocelot or fishing cat would be too strong in the grapple and survive the initial attack. They seem too stocky and robust for a lynx or caracal to beat. Lynxes in particular have shown to be exceptionally underwhelming, falling victim to fishers, lone coyotes and losing to terriers half their size. I don't think an ocelot or fishing cat would go out like that. Ocelots and fishing cats have a wide array of small game to take out and fewer deer, I think if they tried they'd actually be doing it more frequently and perhaps evolve a little larger as a result. Lynxes are small game specialists which is why they haven't gotten larger to exploit deer as them killing deer is exceedingly rare. You should join the board... done! I believe its mostly canadian lynx that have these lowlights? Don't get me wrong, canadian lynx are cool cats too but they are mostly small game specialists and are dominated by bobcats where they coexist. Despite what people think, bobcat are actually larger than canadian lynx if we look at the largest populations where bobcats would dominate them. I'd doubt a large male bobcat would fall to any of these outside of terriers but I'd doubt they'd lose to terriers half their size. Don't get me wrong terriers are very strong as well but them taking badgers already puts them on a different tier. although i'm interested in how a terrier does against a fishing cat or ocelot. From what i've seen coyotes do dominate bobcats mainly due to size. Interestingly some of the northeastern bobcats get absolutely huge 35+ lbs as they specialize on large prey. I believe a new hampshire hunting record pegged their average at over 30 pounds which the largest ocelots "only" average about 25 pounds . This would roughly correspond to 1-2 weight classes in human fighting terms and the bobcat may be able to compensate for some of that weakness with size. Here is a massive 35-40 pounder that looks like an eurasian lynx www.newscentermaine.com/article/news/local/amazing-images-of-large-bobcat-captured-in-walepole/97-557504341The main danger would be those powerful hindlegs which could propel the bobcat to very high jumps. Yeah, Canadian lynx. They're the worst for sure. I agree with you, a bobcat would not lose to a fisher but... a coyote? Bobcats tend to stay in forested areas and avoid open areas out of fear of coyotes. A lone coyote won't generally mess with a bobcat but when they do they win, however I've not heard of a lone coyote killing a bobcat. I haven't heard of the reverse either, in the past I favored bobcat but it seems despite their brief control of the fight they are quickly shaken off and/or fail to do any damage. Like, I don't think they have ideal tools for fighting another carnivoran. Perhaps a bobcat would beat a terrier half its size, surely they're not that bad. Though I'd still place my money on the terrier TBH. Here in Florida I saw this news article of a bobcat that killed a shark and it's huge compared to the ones I saw in my backyard, like a bobcat x cougar hybrid or something.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2023 1:30:46 GMT
Oh yeah, ocelots and fishing cats (how about jaguarundis and margays? Don't hear about them much) are much superior to the lynx genus, and then clouded leopards are just downsized jaguars. Oh yea Jagarundis and margays are absolutely up there as well. A bit too small to do anything impressive but frankly ocelots and fishing cats underachieve predatory feat wise relative to the lynx genus and caracals which are definetely less robust but seem to be built for speed and explosion rather than strength. (With the ability to jump 10+ feet for bobcats and caracals). Never seen ocelots or fishing cats take down 100+ pound deer/antelope which bobcats and caracals have been notroious for probably because they don't have the speed to catch such a fast prey. I guess a fight could be interesting in that the ocelot/fishing cat can overpower the bobcat/caracal unless the bobcat/caracal catches it early with its superior explosion. Something I've always wondered about is how/why Eurasian lynx is a medium-to-large game predator just like tiger/lion/jaguar/leopard/ cougar/snow leopard/clouded leopard/marbled cat, while it has SUCH meager robusticity. Generally large-game cats (or any carnivora) are also high-robusticity animals, however Eurasian lynx is the epitome of breaking that mould. The marbled cat is also down there in robusticity but still nothing like the lynx, which just has rather weak limb long bone robusticity across the board. Bobcat is also down there on robusticity but moderately better than the Eurasian lynx, although bobcat is one category lower on dietary niche as a small-to-medium game predator. And consistent with being a low-robusticity carnivoran the Eurasian lynx has an ABOMINABLE bite force quotient according to Wroe's dry skull bite force study. But it can take large game! |
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Post by Hardcastle on Feb 22, 2023 2:05:05 GMT
Oh yea Jagarundis and margays are absolutely up there as well. A bit too small to do anything impressive but frankly ocelots and fishing cats underachieve predatory feat wise relative to the lynx genus and caracals which are definetely less robust but seem to be built for speed and explosion rather than strength. (With the ability to jump 10+ feet for bobcats and caracals). Never seen ocelots or fishing cats take down 100+ pound deer/antelope which bobcats and caracals have been notroious for probably because they don't have the speed to catch such a fast prey. I guess a fight could be interesting in that the ocelot/fishing cat can overpower the bobcat/caracal unless the bobcat/caracal catches it early with its superior explosion. Something I've always wondered about is how/why Eurasian lynx is a medium-to-large game predator just like tiger/lion/jaguar/leopard/ cougar/snow leopard/clouded leopard/marbled cat, while it has SUCH meager robusticity. Generally large-game cats (or any carnivora) are also high-robusticity animals, however Eurasian lynx is the epitome of breaking that mould. The marbled cat is also down there in robusticity but still nothing like the lynx, which just has rather weak limb long bone robusticity across the board. Bobcat is also down there on robusticity but moderately better than the Eurasian lynx, although bobcat is one category lower on dietary niche as a small-to-medium game predator. And consistent with being a low-robusticity carnivoran the Eurasian lynx has an ABOMINABLE bite force quotient according to Wroe's dry skull bite force study. But it can take large game! I think even Eurasian lynx still definitely MOSTLY hunt small game. I believe in much of their range their diet is often 90+% hares, and they seem to be built for that lifestyle. BUT they do also just have these more impressive "feats" of taking larger game, and perhaps even some niche populations in some areas(in Finland and Estonia for example) seemingly preferring cervids. Makes you wonder... is the data for the eurasian lynx robusticity perhaps taken from hare specialists? And if we secured deer eaters of northern Europe would we see higher robusticity? Or alternatively are these deer eaters just beginning to embark down a path that will ultimately, over time, result in them morphing into a more robust sub-species. Like we may be present at the beginning stage where you initially just have small-game specialised cats targetting bigger animals, and then later they turn into a more big-game adapted cat in response. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2023 2:23:40 GMT
Something I've always wondered about is how/why Eurasian lynx is a medium-to-large game predator just like tiger/lion/jaguar/leopard/ cougar/snow leopard/clouded leopard/marbled cat, while it has SUCH meager robusticity. Generally large-game cats (or any carnivora) are also high-robusticity animals, however Eurasian lynx is the epitome of breaking that mould. The marbled cat is also down there in robusticity but still nothing like the lynx, which just has rather weak limb long bone robusticity across the board. Bobcat is also down there on robusticity but moderately better than the Eurasian lynx, although bobcat is one category lower on dietary niche as a small-to-medium game predator. And consistent with being a low-robusticity carnivoran the Eurasian lynx has an ABOMINABLE bite force quotient according to Wroe's dry skull bite force study. But it can take large game! I think even Eurasian lynx still definitely MOSTLY hunt small game. I believe in much of their range their diet is often 90+% hares, and they seem to be built for that lifestyle. BUT they do also just have these more impressive "feats" of taking larger game, and perhaps even some niche populations in some areas(in Finland and Estonia for example) seemingly preferring cervids. Makes you wonder... is the data for the eurasian lynx robusticity perhaps taken from hare specialists? And if we secured deer eaters of northern Europe would we see higher robusticity? Or alternatively are these deer eaters just beginning to embark down a path that will ultimately, over time, result in them morphing into a more robust sub-species. Like we may be present at the beginning stage where you initially just have small-game specialised cats targetting bigger animals, and then later they turn into a more big-game adapted cat in response. Very interesting point and a reason for not taking the robusticity of a species based on one specimen from one sub-population too much like gospel. Although the specimen from Wroe's bite force study has a really low bite force quotient which does back up the Eurasian lynx low-robusticity claim. Although as Wroe was responsible for both studies he very well could have taken Eurasian lynxes from the same area/sub-population for both the bite force study and the limb long bone study. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Feb 22, 2023 2:54:21 GMT
I think even Eurasian lynx still definitely MOSTLY hunt small game. I believe in much of their range their diet is often 90+% hares, and they seem to be built for that lifestyle. BUT they do also just have these more impressive "feats" of taking larger game, and perhaps even some niche populations in some areas(in Finland and Estonia for example) seemingly preferring cervids. Makes you wonder... is the data for the eurasian lynx robusticity perhaps taken from hare specialists? And if we secured deer eaters of northern Europe would we see higher robusticity? Or alternatively are these deer eaters just beginning to embark down a path that will ultimately, over time, result in them morphing into a more robust sub-species. Like we may be present at the beginning stage where you initially just have small-game specialised cats targetting bigger animals, and then later they turn into a more big-game adapted cat in response. Very interesting point and a reason for not taking the robusticity of a species based on one specimen from one sub-population too much like gospel. Although the specimen from Wroe's bite force study has a really low bite force quotient which does back up the Eurasian lynx low-robusticity claim. Although as Wroe was responsible for both studies he very well could have taken Eurasian lynxes from the same area/sub-population for both the bite force study and the limb long bone study. TBH I lean more towards my latter explanation anyway, that this "moving into large game" is kind of a new development/endeavour for the eurasian lynx and their anatomy simply hasn't caught up yet. They're fundamentally a rabbit hunter who is opportunistically trying out bigger game. Maybe a modern human-caused scarcity of their regular prey factoring in to this decision, with large prey tiding them over for a longer period of time between kills. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2023 11:30:06 GMT
Very interesting point and a reason for not taking the robusticity of a species based on one specimen from one sub-population too much like gospel. Although the specimen from Wroe's bite force study has a really low bite force quotient which does back up the Eurasian lynx low-robusticity claim. Although as Wroe was responsible for both studies he very well could have taken Eurasian lynxes from the same area/sub-population for both the bite force study and the limb long bone study. TBH I lean more towards my latter explanation anyway, that this "moving into large game" is kind of a new development/endeavour for the eurasian lynx and their anatomy simply hasn't caught up yet. They're fundamentally a rabbit hunter who is opportunistically trying out bigger game. Maybe a modern human-caused scarcity of their regular prey factoring in to this decision, with large prey tiding them over for a longer period of time between kills. I gotcha now. I just thought they physically shouldn't be able to take large prey in the first place with their robusticity and bite force quotient. They're obviously able to though. They seem to only take large prey when forced to during small-prey scarcity in winter time. And then it's risky, I guess due to their robusticity. So they're basically a gracile small-game cat that's forced to hunt risky prey during winter prey scarcity. Maybe this kind of indicates that all the other small, gracile small-game cats have the potential to take prey far larger than themselves. But yeah I wonder whether this will lead Eurasian lynx to becoming more robust. They are SO gracile right now, more gracile than every other cat on Wroe's robusticity study, more gracile than every small-game cat. DEAD last. |
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