Your stand on animal debates.

[oldgreengrolar]

So how would you stand on animal debates be? How firm would you be in your believes especially in popular debates?

[Deleted]

In popular debates like ''lion vs tiger'' and ''cougar vs leopard'' I'm not so firm. However, on Jagd v bobcat and Dogo v cougar and Boergreyhound v brown hyena etc. I am 100% firm.

[Hardcastle]

Lion vs tiger
I am pro lion. But not insanely confident. I know the lion does truly have combat specialisation and adaptations, thanks to it's social structure and the culture attached to it. I have no reluctance or hesitation to assert that confidently.
I don't know if it was equal to the tiger to begin with, however. There's a small opening there for tiger-folk to persuade me that the tiger is just fundamentally a superior lineage of cat, and the lion's combat specialisation doesn't successfully compensate for the gap.
I was a "lion fanatic" in the early 00s on the original Ava. It was my main focus for a couple of years, and I was considered a pretty strong force combatting tiger folk and making excellent arguments for the lion. One thing I didn't actually understand back then, is the tiger and lion actually AREN'T all that SUPER closely related. I thought lions and tigers were close cousins and leopards and jaguars and snow leopards and etc were relatively distant. So I thought the only difference between a lion and tiger was the lion was basically a tiger and then became social and became a lion. So from a tiger base it merely gained combat specialisation, therefore the case was open and shut for me. I was a little mistaken. They aren't that close. The lion is actually much closer related to the leopard and jaguar, and the tiger more closely related to the snow leopard and even clouded leopard. Basically there's no guarantee they were starting from the same place. Even with the lion's combat specialisation, which to me is undeniable, that doesn't automatically gift a victory to the lion in the debate. The tiger might just be a next level beast. I'm not saying that's true. I'm saying it's possible.
I did always think they were weirdly close, considering the combat specialisation, it seemed to me the lion should be MORE better than it is, if that makes sense. I feel intuitively and from available cases that the actual fight is almost 50/50. Depends on the individual. I still consider myself team lion because the argument for it is just clear.
I'm not AS "firm" as I used to be, though.

Bears vs big cats in general
Team bear. I think bears are too tank like and too ready to throw down. I think they're actually a nightmare matchup for cats. Cats CAN prey on them, but don't count on it working. It usually won't, actually even if the bear is significantly smaller. Have seen it too many times with tigers trying to prey on female sloth bears half their size and getting beaten up and fended off. I don't bother being sceptical on cases of tigers predating on bears (even brown bears), it's fine, I believe they can do that, I just also believe they are far far far more likely to lose any altercation with a bear. One their own size, one smaller, one bigger of course.
I'm quite firm on this one. Bears have weaknesses, and those weaknesses mean that cats can try to prey on them and fail and probably be a fine. Like a bear isn't going to be well equipped to prevent their escape after a failed predation attempt. Bears are poor sloppy killers, easy to avoid and easy to get away from. But a bear that is aware of a cat and actively defending itself is basically never going to lose. Cats have to get the jump on unsuspecting bears in an ambush and get their assassination perfect. Then sure, predation is possible. But in no way can they trade blows and go back and forth with a bear. A bear is comfortable with that exchange, they are not.

Cougar vs Leopard
I have flip flopped on this one. The leopard always seemed better, but then the limb robusticity study and the higher max weights of the cougar, higher average prey size, and there used to be this narrative that they stood up to rival predators more than leopards did, but I feel like that last one has fell apart.
Leopard still seems better to me. Seems to take on boars and bovines more often. Hunter testimony also seems to suggest it's a relatively hellacious fighter compared to pumas (from people who hunted both, I actually take hunter testimony seriously, or more accurately I know when they are lying, and these testimonies aren't lies). So I lean leopard, but I'm pretty un-firm and open about it.

I will gradually over time add more of my stances....

edit - just realised "bold" doesn't show up too good with white lettering.

[Deleted]

Sometimes I think that in some of those pen fights if you swapped the cougar out with leopard you could get some wacky results. I think they're around 15% better. It's a recent opinion and one I will continue to stick with.
The robusticity study, while good, also lumped in other bones they shouldn't've. Based off of the available clues I think at parity the leopard is stronger, and at average weights I don't see the size difference at all. 110-130lbs for cougars and 110-130lbs for leopards.
Prey targeted indicates strength, temperament and ability to weather the storm. Cougars hate that, hence why they never take animals that they can't immediately kill and carry off, while leopards are okay with just hanging in there to score their kill.

[Deleted]

I think most of my opinions are logical and accurate. I think some of the match-ups involving extinct creatures are less correct, and of course this makes sense as, well, they're extinct. I still believe that Megalodon beats every marine predator that has ever existed, and also stand firmly that all sauropods over 50 tons could solo all other land animals. And even beat most in a 2v1 situation. But yeah like I said prior, for the most part, when it comes to extant animals, I'm probably correct.

[Hardcastle]

Feb 11, 2023 12:03:10 GMT Bolushi said:

Sometimes I think that in some of those pen fights if you swapped the cougar out with leopard you could get some wacky results. I think they're around 15% better. It's a recent opinion and one I will continue to stick with.
The robusticity study, while good, also lumped in other bones they shouldn't've. Based off of the available clues I think at parity the leopard is stronger, and at average weights I don't see the size difference at all. 110-130lbs for cougars and 110-130lbs for leopards.
Prey targeted indicates strength, temperament and ability to weather the storm. Cougars hate that, hence why they never take animals that they can't immediately kill and carry off, while leopards are okay with just hanging in there to score their kill.

Good points. Targeting boars and bovines is a big deal, because they are prey items whose primary defense against being eaten is fighting off predators. Pumas average heavier prey than leopards, BUT they are all "flighty" prey, heavy or not. They seem to have an aversion to "fighty" prey, and that doesn't bode well for their prospects as a potential combatant.

[Deleted]

Feb 11, 2023 12:20:51 GMT Hardcastle said:

Feb 11, 2023 12:03:10 GMT Bolushi said:

Sometimes I think that in some of those pen fights if you swapped the cougar out with leopard you could get some wacky results. I think they're around 15% better. It's a recent opinion and one I will continue to stick with.
The robusticity study, while good, also lumped in other bones they shouldn't've. Based off of the available clues I think at parity the leopard is stronger, and at average weights I don't see the size difference at all. 110-130lbs for cougars and 110-130lbs for leopards.
Prey targeted indicates strength, temperament and ability to weather the storm. Cougars hate that, hence why they never take animals that they can't immediately kill and carry off, while leopards are okay with just hanging in there to score their kill.

Good points. Targeting boars and bovines is a big deal, because they are prey items whose primary defense against being eaten is fighting off predators. Pumas average heavier prey than leopards, BUT they are all "flighty" prey, heavy or not. They seem to have an aversion to "fighty" prey, and that doesn't bode well for their prospects as a potential combatant.

Yeah, any fight really sets them off balance. I think we overrate cervids, their offensive abilities are bullshit. Large bull elk and bull moose don't need to worry about cougars, everything else does. ''Everything else'' has no method of fighting back besides guanaco who regularly fend off cougars but are still perfectly viable prey and can't do much if the ambush is done correctly.
Things that fight that are medium or above sized are avoided. Peccaries are the most formidable animals they take and they still usually get beaten up. Leopards on the other hand have evolved to slug it out with warthogs, who despite being fairly talked down upon are a large animal that fights. Likely the key to leopard superiority.

[Hardcastle]

Cervids are indeed not that dangerous to big-game predators really (moose IMO a bit of an exception and a bit of a "battle beast"), but can still simultaneously be an epic achievement to bring down and kill. I think cougars have some rather impressive cervid kills and also some impressive equid kills. I'm open to the idea the puma might actually be a better killer of bigger prey as long as it's less combative. I think pumas MIGHT actually prey on zebras if they were stranded in africa, while leopards mostly don't. And zebras ARE somewhat combative, but sill the fact remains that these prey animals LEAN "flight". The aversion of pumas to boars is actually weird. The studies in some areas where boars are far and away the most available prey and pumas are like "no thank you" are quite damning and glaring. I don't think a leopard can reasonably mess with a top tier boar either but they still target SOME boars, even if sows and juveniles and older ones or whatever. Pumas just blanket ban the idea of any adult boars/sows, they pick off literal babies the size of hamburgers and basically avoid the rest like the plague. Predation on adult cattle, or even close to adult, is also extremely rare. Again leopards can't just casually kill prime adult cattle but they do cause problems for cattle graziers. Pumas are irrelevant to cattle graziers. They don't even acknowledge their presence because they don't do shit to cattle herds.

[oldgreengrolar]

Tiger vs Lion.

Definately the most popular animal vs animal topic. I don’t participate much, however, I believe the larger Bengal and Siberian will win more often than not.
At weight parity, it is almost 50/50 in my opinion.

Bear vs big cats.

At weight parity (male vs male),I believe it is a toss up (bear winning slightly in my opinion) and both have advantages that cancel out each other. Bears are stronger due to shorter backbones, can hit harder with their paws being plantigrades, and better grapplers as well as exert more force when pushing and pulling plus have longer claws. Big cats have stronger jaws, agility, sharper claws, and better killing bite, and more explosive. They are also strong animals. When it comes to male big cat vs female bear, at weight parity, the male big cat has the advantage.

Brown bears win 7/10 if they put weigh big cats by 200 pounds and 10/10 if they reach Kodiak bear weight.

Male polar bears beat all big cats (including smilodon populator).

Leopard vs cougar.

I think the larger North American cougar takes the cake. At weight parity, it is going to be 50/50.

[CoolJohnson]

Tiger vs. Lion

Ultimate fight that could go either way depending on the size.

Bears vs. Big Cats

The Big Cat could win by ambush, but a similar sized Bear could do well in a fair fight.

Big Cats vs. Canids/Hyena

It is a weird toss up. Hyenas have mediocre offense compared to Canids when working in groups, but seem to be pretty good at defense. A Hyena group is less likely to kill a Big Cat compared to a Wolf pack, but a lone Wolf is more likely to be killed off than a lone Hyena.

Leopard vs. Cougar

I will provide more sources when I fix my laptop wifi problem, so here is the summary from what I have found:

1. Both Leopards and Cougars can take down large Cervids. This includes Leopards taking down Sambar Deer, Caspian Red Deer and Hangul Deer, which can be comparable to the Cougar's Rocky Mountain Elk/Feral Red Deer. The Leopard's Eland can be comparable to the Cougar's Moose.

2. Cougars actually rarely take down adult horse, and probably won't take down adult zebra much in a Lion dominated environment. Like a Leopard, the will move on to smaller prey with Jaguars. There are also a few instances of Leopards taking down adult zebra in Africa and adult horses in the former Soviet Union/Iran. People could argue that Cougars still go for juvenile horses but I could counteract that by pointing out Leopards go for juvenile wild cattle (gaur, banteng, African Buffalo etc.)

3. I guess like how Cougars rarely take down horses, Leopards occasionally kill adult boar.

4. I will provides studies on Leopards going for adult free-ranging cattle.

If people want to argue about Cougar's robust forelimbs, I can point out that Leopards have thicker necks and chests when alive, and are also better at grappling based on lower pc2 value (Andersson 2004).