Bully Kutta vs Fighting Alabai

[Deleted]

vs

[Deleted]

BKs are one of the few boarhounds who can maintain functionality at 150-175lbs, so it's not going to be severely outsized... I might go watch some fights and do tallies, I did it with Kangal vs Presa I think in June-August of last year.

[Musth]

I have talked to a professional Tosa man who has been around the game. He works with the Korean Tosa, which is a new line and actually more superior to the Japanese lines. The Korean lines are fought like apbt are in Korea. They have no sanctioned tournaments over there like they do Japan, so this basically means they have to fight harder, longer, etc. which imo probably produces a harder and better fighting dog which is why the Korean tosa line is gaining the reputation it has quickly. The Korean tosa line is basically a heavyweight version of the gamebred apbt. BK are a step below that but they are the second best breed. Tosa are usually the best. Then followed by BK. The the fighting “wolfhounds” or Volkodavs are next.


From what I was told from tosa man, who has seen many matches and also went to China and seen many matches BK is usually the second best. Meaning it will beat a fighting cao or volkodav more often than not. However with that said there are individuals in each dog. But as a breed the BK is the better fighter, despite what and how many shitty fighting videos you have seen of them online.

With that said the Volkodav or LGD breeds have the hardest and most damaging bite of any dogs being fought. Also they are the biggest and strongest. And tend to have great wrestling ability as well.

[Deleted]

Feb 4, 2023 7:36:11 GMT Musth said:

I have talked to a professional Tosa man who has been around the game. He works with the Korean Tosa, which is a new line and actually more superior to the Japanese lines. The Korean lines are fought like apbt are in Korea. They have no sanctioned tournaments over there like they do Japan, so this basically means they have to fight harder, longer, etc. which imo probably produces a harder and better fighting dog which is why the Korean tosa line is gaining the reputation it has quickly. The Korean tosa line is basically a heavyweight version of the gamebred apbt. BK are a step below that but they are the second best breed. Tosa are usually the best. Then followed by BK. The the fighting “wolfhounds” or Volkodavs are next.


From what I was told from tosa man, who has seen many matches and also went to China and seen many matches BK is usually the second best. Meaning it will beat a fighting cao or volkodav more often than not. However with that said there are individuals in each dog. But as a breed the BK is the better fighter, despite what and how many shitty fighting videos you have seen of them online.

With that said the Volkodav or LGD breeds have the hardest and most damaging bite of any dogs being fought. Also they are the biggest and strongest. And tend to have great wrestling ability as well.

I know the BK is the better fighter, but the LGDs seem to be physically superior and end up running the BK into the dirt. Are they actually dominating the fight or just winning from the ground? Being boarhounds they seem to suffer from the greyhound crossing.
I've always figured the APBT beats everything besides maybe the Tosa on occasion. Where do they stand? I know the ones in the other countries aren't as good as American high stakes game dogs, but if they're beating even just ''decent'' APBTs more often than not I'll be surprised.
What are wolfhounds? Actual Irish Wolfhounds or is it a name for Central Asian Shepherds?

[Hardcastle]

Yeah I've seen some really really really shitty BKs. Logically and rationally I would have to place the BK above Alabais/Central Asians, higher potential, BUT I bet the average CAO is better than the average BK. Definitely from what I've seen this is true.

I'd say LGDs are more consistently closer to their potential than BKs, and actually probably tosas and then all the western bull/mastiff breeds as well. But best vs best I'll always bet on the gripping dog.

[Musth]

Feb 4, 2023 7:43:43 GMT Bolushi said:

Feb 4, 2023 7:36:11 GMT Musth said:

I have talked to a professional Tosa man who has been around the game. He works with the Korean Tosa, which is a new line and actually more superior to the Japanese lines. The Korean lines are fought like apbt are in Korea. They have no sanctioned tournaments over there like they do Japan, so this basically means they have to fight harder, longer, etc. which imo probably produces a harder and better fighting dog which is why the Korean tosa line is gaining the reputation it has quickly. The Korean tosa line is basically a heavyweight version of the gamebred apbt. BK are a step below that but they are the second best breed. Tosa are usually the best. Then followed by BK. The the fighting “wolfhounds” or Volkodavs are next.


From what I was told from tosa man, who has seen many matches and also went to China and seen many matches BK is usually the second best. Meaning it will beat a fighting cao or volkodav more often than not. However with that said there are individuals in each dog. But as a breed the BK is the better fighter, despite what and how many shitty fighting videos you have seen of them online.

With that said the Volkodav or LGD breeds have the hardest and most damaging bite of any dogs being fought. Also they are the biggest and strongest. And tend to have great wrestling ability as well.

I know the BK is the better fighter, but the LGDs seem to be physically superior and end up running the BK into the dirt. Are they actually dominating the fight or just winning from the ground? Being boarhounds they seem to suffer from the greyhound crossing.
I've always figured the APBT beats everything besides maybe the Tosa on occasion. Where do they stand? I know the ones in the other countries aren't as good as American high stakes game dogs, but if they're beating even just ''decent'' APBTs more often than not I'll be surprised.
What are wolfhounds? Actual Irish Wolfhounds or is it a name for Central Asian Shepherds?

There’s cases of both. But in general LGD dog will always gain the upper hand in the beginning. But the best BK can put wrestle them or match their wrestling ability as well. IMO APBT is a top fight dog. It has the potential to beat any of the listed above dogs. Even weighing 50lbs soaking wet lol. There is a famous match between a Tosa vs apbt in Romania “Tito vs Tano”. Tito had 5xW and Tano had 10xW well the pitbull in a long tough fight ended up winning. However the Tosa was bred in Romania based off of a long line of show dogs. He did have x10 wins however they were against random breeds and basically backyard fights. 

The tosa in Korea is basically Gamebred. They can go 1 hour 30 mins according to the guy I’m talking too. According to this guy he has seen them beat good apbt in China many times. He has seen thousand of dog fights probably so I will take his word for it. They are by far the top fight dog. However a good BK can come in a close second. The big upland comer in China apparently right now is a BK x Tosa. It’s a heavyweight vs a lightweight. 

Wolfhound is what the Russians call their working ovcharkas (Caucasian, central asain). They are also called Volkodav which means wolf crusher. These days Volkodav basically mean lgd that come from strict testing lines.(fighting, but they only fight the males) 

Which is another thing Tosa females are not performance tested, BK females are not fought, and volkodav females are not fought. Only apbt females are tested. 

[Deleted]

Feb 4, 2023 8:27:00 GMT Musth said:

Feb 4, 2023 7:43:43 GMT Bolushi said:

I know the BK is the better fighter, but the LGDs seem to be physically superior and end up running the BK into the dirt. Are they actually dominating the fight or just winning from the ground? Being boarhounds they seem to suffer from the greyhound crossing.
I've always figured the APBT beats everything besides maybe the Tosa on occasion. Where do they stand? I know the ones in the other countries aren't as good as American high stakes game dogs, but if they're beating even just ''decent'' APBTs more often than not I'll be surprised.
What are wolfhounds? Actual Irish Wolfhounds or is it a name for Central Asian Shepherds?

There’s cases of both. But in general LGD dog will always gain the upper hand in the beginning. But the best BK can put wrestle them or match their wrestling ability as well. IMO APBT is a top fight dog. It has the potential to beat any of the listed above dogs. Even weighing 50lbs soaking wet lol. There is a famous match between a Tosa vs apbt in Romania “Tito vs Tano”. Tito had 5xW and Tano had 10xW well the pitbull in a long tough fight ended up winning. However the Tosa was bred in Romania based off of a long line of show dogs. He did have x10 wins however they were against random breeds and basically backyard fights. 

The tosa in Korea is basically Gamebred. They can go 1 hour 30 mins according to the guy I’m talking too. According to this guy he has seen them beat good apbt in China many times. He has seen thousand of dog fights probably so I will take his word for it. They are by far the top fight dog. However a good BK can come in a close second. The big upland comer in China apparently right now is a BK x Tosa. It’s a heavyweight vs a lightweight. 

Wolfhound is what the Russians call their working ovcharkas (Caucasian, central asain). They are also called Volkodav which means wolf crusher. These days Volkodav basically mean lgd that come from strict testing lines.(fighting, but they only fight the males) 

Which is another thing Tosa females are not performance tested, BK females are not fought, and volkodav females are not fought. Only apbt females are tested. 

Why don't they test females? Then it's 50% good and 50% anything. Might as well breed it with a lab... I don't get it.

[Musth]

Feb 4, 2023 8:41:24 GMT Bolushi said:

Feb 4, 2023 8:27:00 GMT Musth said:

There’s cases of both. But in general LGD dog will always gain the upper hand in the beginning. But the best BK can put wrestle them or match their wrestling ability as well. IMO APBT is a top fight dog. It has the potential to beat any of the listed above dogs. Even weighing 50lbs soaking wet lol. There is a famous match between a Tosa vs apbt in Romania “Tito vs Tano”. Tito had 5xW and Tano had 10xW well the pitbull in a long tough fight ended up winning. However the Tosa was bred in Romania based off of a long line of show dogs. He did have x10 wins however they were against random breeds and basically backyard fights. 

The tosa in Korea is basically Gamebred. They can go 1 hour 30 mins according to the guy I’m talking too. According to this guy he has seen them beat good apbt in China many times. He has seen thousand of dog fights probably so I will take his word for it. They are by far the top fight dog. However a good BK can come in a close second. The big upland comer in China apparently right now is a BK x Tosa. It’s a heavyweight vs a lightweight. 

Wolfhound is what the Russians call their working ovcharkas (Caucasian, central asain). They are also called Volkodav which means wolf crusher. These days Volkodav basically mean lgd that come from strict testing lines.(fighting, but they only fight the males) 

Which is another thing Tosa females are not performance tested, BK females are not fought, and volkodav females are not fought. Only apbt females are tested. 

Why don't they test females? Then it's 50% good and 50% anything. Might as well breed it with a lab... I don't get it.

Either do I…… I can see the Volkodavs, honestly they are supposed to be bred as a working LGD dog, the tests are only supposed to be just that “test” however in recent times I think it has become more of a sport (the Volkodav fights) then an actual test. Having tournaments championships and the prize winner getting a new car etc..  They have arenas full in kazakhstan, and other countries which only “Volkodavs” can compete in. 

At least that female is related to a good fighting dog(her father) but I do agree it’s pretty lame. IMO

[Hardcastle]

There was an interview with a Japanese guy way back in the day on a website called "Bandog.TV". He spoke about an underground illegal fighting scene in Japan where the dogs were game-tested and also the winner traditionally ate the loser. He had photos of VERY legit looking dogs. Lean and shredded long limbed dogs pulling hard on chains, like 80-100 lbs 27-30" gamebred apbts is basically what they looked like, with a little extra skin perhaps, but they really looked nothing like tosas. The fact they were authentic elite performance dogs was unmistakable, even if his words almost seemed too sensational at times.

What you're describing from Korea sounds like a similar kind of scene.

Livestock guardians can be more impressive beasts than other kinds of dogs, comfortably large, fairly mobile considering how large, and extremely powerful. Gripping dogs have real limitations on their size, where weight actually starts weighing them down and hindering them. Over certain weights their power to weight ratio really falls off a cliff. The ancestral landrace working dogs that "evolved" (rather being constructed) were simply not very big, you can add size to them but you can't change the real animal they actually are underneath.

I think this is the main reason volkodavs and kangals and etc can be quite competitive in fighting, they don't have elite fighting attributes built into their DNA (livestock guarding as a role actually doesn't call for it, despite appearances), but through experience they can become great fighters (the same way a human can) and then they're comfortably massive stature canines, with incredibly robust bones and lots of muscle and very thick durable skin and fur. When they are fighting a gripping dog, they are bigger, even if they aren't, they are. If a gripping dog is as big it's very oversized and burdened by it's excess size. If they are optimal size for their type, they are smaller, and that is it's own massive headache in a fight.

The fact gripping dogs CAN overcome them is actually a testament to the outstanding combative ability coded into their DNA. But ultimately, in the end, volkodavs are right up there in the "open weight" "baddest dog on the planet" debate.

These "gamebred" korean (or illegal japanese) tosas, lean and shredded at 100 lbs, are also very worthy contenders for that title. And still, yes, good old fashioned little gamebred apbts also can't be counted out, even with monumental size disadvantages.

[Hardcastle]

I think the reason females aren't fought in other breeds is actually because other breeds are fighting for "rank". Subconsciously their instinctual motivation is actually to secure top dog status, and thus have breeding rights to any females that might be around. The dog fighters are exploiting that instinct. Obviously females can't be motivated to fight for this reason. Makes no sense.

APBT fights are different, they are actually exploiting prey drive.
The use of "bait dogs" is part of a process of conditioning gamedogs to view other dogs as prey. These dogs have no "friends", no socialising whatsoever. They are trained to see dogs as vermin. They are killing the rival dog not to get alpha status, but rather to secure prey for their packmate which is the human.

Gameness was actually built in gripping dogs for the purpose of hunting, being reliable to hold onto a dangerous beast and keep fighting no matter what, even if your legs are broken and your guts is spilling out of your body. This game instinct on a hunt was favoured in gripping dogs, because that is their purpose, making it safe for a human to approach and handle a dangerous beast. If they give up and let go when they are badly injured, then that is incredibly dangerous for the approaching human. So that "never give up" attitude is a psychological trait connected to the prey drive of gripping dogs. Disgustingly, in the past bulldog breeders would actually demonstrate their line's reliability and gameness by having it lug a bull and then cut it's legs off one by one to show it won't let go no matter what.

With game dog fighting, the dog is fighting the other dog like it's a bull or boar, it's not willing to give up while the other dog is still alive, because in accordance with it's biological directive that means the dog is still a threat to it's human. The gender of the dog makes no difference, because all of them hunt and seize game, so they can all be conditioned to view dogs as prey and not give a shit about gender. The females don't just fight each other, they fight males as well. Gender is a non-issue, because it is not a "social" interaction. It's a predatory interaction. With dogs fighting for rank this is not possible to replicate.

It could be argued this also makes pitbull vs other dog fights unfair. Each combatant has totally different motivations, and often you see a big dog beat a pitbull for a while and in the end start looking around like "why won't it give up? I'm the alpha??" and the pitbull ultimately prevails because it was hell bent on incapacitating the other dog like vermin, not just trying to assert it's authority.

My first childhood dog was deprived of socialisation and accidentally conditioned to view dogs as prey, it's a huge advantage.

[Musth]

Feb 4, 2023 9:00:50 GMT Hardcastle said:

There was an interview with a Japanese guy way back in the day on a website called "Bandog.TV". He spoke about an underground illegal fighting scene in Japan where the dogs were game-tested and also the winner traditionally ate the loser. He had photos of VERY legit looking dogs. Lean and shredded long limbed dogs pulling hard on chains, like 80-100 lbs 27-30" gamebred apbts is basically what they looked like, with a little extra skin perhaps, but they really looked nothing like tosas. The fact they were authentic elite performance dogs was unmistakable, even if his words almost seemed too sensational at times.

What you're describing from Korea sounds like a similar kind of scene.

Livestock guardians can be more impressive beasts than other kinds of dogs, comfortably large, fairly mobile considering how large, and extremely powerful. Gripping dogs have real limitations on their size, where weight actually starts weighing them down and hindering them. Over certain weights their power to weight ratio really falls off a cliff. The ancestral landrace working dogs that "evolved" (rather being constructed) were simply not very big, you can add size to them but you can't change the real animal they actually are underneath.

I think this is the main reason volkodavs and kangals and etc can be quite competitive in fighting, they don't have elite fighting attributes built into their DNA (livestock guarding as a role actually doesn't call for it, despite appearances), but through experience they can become great fighters (the same way a human can) and then they're comfortably massive stature canines, with incredibly robust bones and lots of muscle and very thick durable skin and fur. When they are fighting a gripping dog, they are bigger, even if they aren't, they are. If a gripping dog is as big it's very oversized and burdened by it's excess size. If they are optimal size for their type, they are smaller, and that is it's own massive headache in a fight.

The fact gripping dogs CAN overcome them is actually a testament to the outstanding combative ability coded into their DNA. But ultimately, in the end, volkodavs are right up there in the "open weight" "baddest dog on the planet" debate.

These "gamebred" korean (or illegal japanese) tosas, lean and shredded at 100 lbs, are also very worthy contenders for that title. And still, yes, good old fashioned little gamebred apbts also can't be counted out, even with monumental size disadvantages.

http://instagram.com/p/CFju-VJBhY9

instagram.com/channa_barka?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y= 

This is the line I am talking about. And yes a heavyweight Tosa is very rare now a days and they are almost extinct. I think any more than 70 kg they have too much weight and it doesn’t benefit them. I think they average around the 100-120/30 mark. Some decent sized males can be bigger and I would say closer to 100-120 but I could check on that again. 


There is a famous family in Dagestan for the Volkodav community(arguably the family who founded the Volkodav testing and tournaments organization etc) the Dotadayev family. They challenged a Tosa breeder to a fight. The tosa breeder flew down his best tosa and the Volkodav used their best tosa…. The tosa won(I believe it was the Korean lines). The Volkodav community was embarrassed and has ever since respected the tosa as the best fighter. 

There’s a YouTube channel HB kennel. He breeds Volkodav himself and hypes them up as well. But even he admits the Korean line tosa are next level. 

[Deleted]

Feb 4, 2023 9:41:00 GMT Musth said:

Feb 4, 2023 9:00:50 GMT Hardcastle said:

There was an interview with a Japanese guy way back in the day on a website called "Bandog.TV". He spoke about an underground illegal fighting scene in Japan where the dogs were game-tested and also the winner traditionally ate the loser. He had photos of VERY legit looking dogs. Lean and shredded long limbed dogs pulling hard on chains, like 80-100 lbs 27-30" gamebred apbts is basically what they looked like, with a little extra skin perhaps, but they really looked nothing like tosas. The fact they were authentic elite performance dogs was unmistakable, even if his words almost seemed too sensational at times.

What you're describing from Korea sounds like a similar kind of scene.

Livestock guardians can be more impressive beasts than other kinds of dogs, comfortably large, fairly mobile considering how large, and extremely powerful. Gripping dogs have real limitations on their size, where weight actually starts weighing them down and hindering them. Over certain weights their power to weight ratio really falls off a cliff. The ancestral landrace working dogs that "evolved" (rather being constructed) were simply not very big, you can add size to them but you can't change the real animal they actually are underneath.

I think this is the main reason volkodavs and kangals and etc can be quite competitive in fighting, they don't have elite fighting attributes built into their DNA (livestock guarding as a role actually doesn't call for it, despite appearances), but through experience they can become great fighters (the same way a human can) and then they're comfortably massive stature canines, with incredibly robust bones and lots of muscle and very thick durable skin and fur. When they are fighting a gripping dog, they are bigger, even if they aren't, they are. If a gripping dog is as big it's very oversized and burdened by it's excess size. If they are optimal size for their type, they are smaller, and that is it's own massive headache in a fight.

The fact gripping dogs CAN overcome them is actually a testament to the outstanding combative ability coded into their DNA. But ultimately, in the end, volkodavs are right up there in the "open weight" "baddest dog on the planet" debate.

These "gamebred" korean (or illegal japanese) tosas, lean and shredded at 100 lbs, are also very worthy contenders for that title. And still, yes, good old fashioned little gamebred apbts also can't be counted out, even with monumental size disadvantages.

http://instagr.am/p/CFju-VJBhY9

instagram.com/channa_barka?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y= 

This is the line I am talking about. And yes a heavyweight Tosa is very rare now a days and they are almost extinct. I think any more than 70 kg they have too much weight and it doesn’t benefit them. I think they average around the 100-120/30 mark. Some decent sized males can be bigger and I would say closer to 100-120 but I could check on that again. 


There is a famous family in Dagestan for the Volkodav community(arguably the family who founded the Volkodav testing and tournaments organization etc) the Dotadayev family. They challenged a Tosa breeder to a fight. The tosa breeder flew down his best tosa and the Volkodav used their best tosa…. The tosa won(I believe it was the Korean lines). The Volkodav community was embarrassed and has ever since respected the tosa as the best fighter. 

There’s a YouTube channel HB kennel. He breeds Volkodav himself and hypes them up as well. But even he admits the Korean line tosa are next level. 

Oh, I thought HB Kennel was just a bit better a version of paws channel. Didn't know he did shit.

[Musth]

Feb 4, 2023 9:28:25 GMT Hardcastle said:

I think the reason females aren't fought in other breeds is actually because other breeds are fighting for "rank". Subconsciously their instinctual motivation is actually to secure top dog status, and thus have breeding rights to any females that might be around. The dog fighters are exploiting that instinct. Obviously females can't be motivated to fight for this reason. Makes no sense.

APBT fights are different, they are actually exploiting prey drive.
The use of "bait dogs" is part of a process of conditioning gamedogs to view other dogs as prey. These dogs have no "friends", no socialising whatsoever. They are trained to see dogs as vermin. They are killing the rival dog not to get alpha status, but rather to secure prey for their packmate which is the human.

Gameness was actually built in gripping dogs for the purpose of hunting, being reliable to hold onto a dangerous beast and keep fighting no matter what, even if your legs are broken and your guts is spilling out of your body. This game instinct on a hunt was favoured in gripping dogs, because that is their purpose, making it safe for a human to approach and handle a dangerous beast. If they give up and let go when they are badly injured, then that is incredibly dangerous for the approaching human. So that "never give up" attitude is a psychological trait connected to the prey drive of gripping dogs. Disgustingly, in the past bulldog breeders would actually demonstrate their line's reliability and gameness by having it lug a bull and then cut it's legs off one by one to show it won't let go no matter what.

With game dog fighting, the dog is fighting the other dog like it's a bull or boar, it's not willing to give up while the other dog is still alive, because in accordance with it's biological directive that means the dog is still a threat to it's human. The gender of the dog makes no difference, because all of them hunt and seize game, so they can all be conditioned to view dogs as prey and not give a shit about gender. The females don't just fight each other, they fight males as well. Gender is a non-issue, because it is not a "social" interaction. It's a predatory interaction. With dogs fighting for rank this is not possible to replicate.

It could be argued this also makes pitbull vs other dog fights unfair. Each combatant has totally different motivations, and often you see a big dog beat a pitbull for a while and in the end start looking around like "why won't it give up? I'm the alpha??" and the pitbull ultimately prevails because it was hell bent on incapacitating the other dog like vermin, not just trying to assert it's authority.

My first childhood dog was deprived of socialisation and accidentally conditioned to view dogs as prey, it's a huge advantage.

Agreed, it’s also culturally too. Volkodav in Khaz and Dagestan are full of muslims same with Pakistan I think that has a big part to do with it. 

But you are right especially with the LGD dogs. The Volkodav or “wolfhound” testing is traditionally used to test the males and to see who will the strongest male be for breeding. This isn’t supposed to be a female trait. At least in primitive pack oriented dogs like a lgd is supposed to be more or less. 

And yes even Tosa, a male and tosa female can get along with no incidents…. You would never expect that with two gamebred apbt. 

However only street thugs use “bait dogs” real dog men don’t do this. They do roll them against other dogs though on their yard sometimes many times before they are matched.  

[Hardcastle]

That's a very good looking dog. You can see the functionality and balance.

The ones I saw from japan back in the mid 00s were leaner/rangier than that, maybe conditioned to fight that day and/or different weight class. But there's no doubting that dog is legit.

[Musth]

Feb 4, 2023 9:52:33 GMT Hardcastle said:

That's a very good looking dog. You can see the functionality and balance.

The ones I saw from japan back in the mid 00s were leaner/rangier than that, maybe conditioned to fight that day and/or different weight class. But there's no doubting that dog is legit.

Wish I could post pictures, I have even some videos(non dog fighting) of them moving around. They are truly athletic beasts… but extremely rare. It’s night time here. Maybe tomorrow I will play around and try to post some pictures and videos.