Lions and tigers can kill adult bulls with a reasonable success rate, and by that I mean like a 1/10 success rate, and that is enough for ranchers to avoid lion/tiger country as much as possible. For Jaguars and Brown bears it is possible but much lower still and bulls are basically safe among these predators, ranchers don't really avoid them and free-ranging cattle are left alone for many months at a time in jaguar and brown bear country. They suffer losses, but few and only to lesser specimens. With leopards, pumas and black bear the threat is lower again, and again cattle thrive in leopard, puma and black bear country. There will be losses, like that black bear clumsily eating a calf alive that you posted (yeah nice "damage", that tends to happen after you have eaten half of something), but very very minimal and again, only lesser specimens. They have to sneak past adults to get at vulnerable calves who "stray" basically.
Wolves and feral dogs slot in all over, because in some cases they don't even hassle cattle in others they do, and when they do they may even take full grown bulls but usually it will be because they have sensed something is wrong. Ranchers do hate wolves and place them up near lions and tigers, but not quite. Still they aren't bothering a healthy bull, with or without horns. And it doesn't matter how big their pack is.
The fact remains; wild predators ARE super selective about the bovines they tackle, and also are allowed to fail the vast majority of the time. Bulldogs aren't allowed to be selective, and aren't allowed to fail. They are on record subduing all manner of domestic cattle, all across the spectrum to the absolute meanest spanish fighting bulls, and also ALL wild bovines, gaur, bison, buffalo, whatever. And they aren't hesitating to take on the absolute best prime adult males. Talking about variation in bovine formidability is a BAD angle for a wild predator enthusiast trying to argue against bulldogs. That is what WE should be talking about, because yes lots of wild predators might loosely "have killed cattle", but dig into the details and you realise these feats are a world apart from what bulldogs do. The quality of the specimens far lower, the success rate far lower, the conditions far less favourable for the bovine, etc.
Lions and tigers can kill adult bulls with a reasonable success rate, and by that I mean like a 1/10 success rate, and that is enough for ranchers to avoid lion/tiger country as much as possible. For Jaguars and Brown bears it is possible but much lower still and bulls are basically safe among these predators, ranchers don't really avoid them and free-ranging cattle are left alone for many months at a time in jaguar and brown bear country. They suffer losses, but few and only to lesser specimens. With leopards, pumas and black bear the threat is lower again, and again cattle thrive in leopard, puma and black bear country. There will be losses, like that black bear clumsily eating a calf alive that you posted (yeah nice "damage", that tends to happen after you have eaten half of something), but very very minimal and again, only lesser specimens. They have to sneak past adults to get at vulnerable calves who "stray" basically.
Wolves and feral dogs slot in all over, because in some cases they don't even hassle cattle in others they do, and when they do they may even take full grown bulls but usually it will be because they have sensed something is wrong. Ranchers do hate wolves and place them up near lions and tigers, but not quite. Still they aren't bothering a healthy bull, with or without horns. And it doesn't matter how big their pack is.
The fact remains; wild predators ARE super selective about the bovines they tackle, and also are allowed to fail the vast majority of the time. Bulldogs aren't allowed to be selective, and aren't allowed to fail. They are on record subduing all manner of domestic cattle, all across the spectrum to the absolute meanest spanish fighting bulls, and also ALL wild bovines, gaur, bison, buffalo, whatever. And they aren't hesitating to take on the absolute best prime adult males. Talking about variation in bovine formidability is a BAD angle for a wild predator enthusiast trying to argue against bulldogs. That is what WE should be talking about, because yes lots of wild predators might loosely "have killed cattle", but dig into the details and you realise these feats are a world apart from what bulldogs do. The quality of the specimens far lower, the success rate far lower, the conditions far less favourable for the bovine, etc.
Dale be afraid, for i have sucessfully collected a doxx of you:
I just find it amusing how you seamlessly move from angle to angle trying to discredit dogs, like "that didn't work, ok how about this? No? Oops, looked really stupid there... Ok how about this! Oh... that's totally retarded? Ok try this on for size" etc etc etc. Almost an admirable level of unconsciousness. Its like Kobe Bryant missing 12 shots in a row and still just chucking them up with carefree confidence anyway, like the misses didn't even happen.
I just find it amusing how you seamlessly move from angle to angle trying to discredit dogs, like "that didn't work, ok how about this? No? Oops, looked really stupid there... Ok how about this! Oh... that's totally retarded? Ok try this on for size" etc etc etc. Almost an admirable level of unconsciousness. Its like Kobe Bryant missing 12 shots in a row and still just chucking them up with carefree confidence anyway, like the misses didn't even happen.
Im self-aware im far from a dog expert or a superb debater
Also i wonder how a debate about Puma Vs Leopard degenerated into Puma Vs Dogs, it's like if a Sun Bear Vs Spectacled Bear debate degenerated into Sun Bear Vs Spotted Hyena or something
Lions and tigers can kill adult bulls with a reasonable success rate, and by that I mean like a 1/10 success rate, and that is enough for ranchers to avoid lion/tiger country as much as possible. For Jaguars and Brown bears it is possible but much lower still and bulls are basically safe among these predators, ranchers don't really avoid them and free-ranging cattle are left alone for many months at a time in jaguar and brown bear country. They suffer losses, but few and only to lesser specimens. With leopards, pumas and black bear the threat is lower again, and again cattle thrive in leopard, puma and black bear country. There will be losses, like that black bear clumsily eating a calf alive that you posted (yeah nice "damage", that tends to happen after you have eaten half of something), but very very minimal and again, only lesser specimens. They have to sneak past adults to get at vulnerable calves who "stray" basically.
Wolves and feral dogs slot in all over, because in some cases they don't even hassle cattle in others they do, and when they do they may even take full grown bulls but usually it will be because they have sensed something is wrong. Ranchers do hate wolves and place them up near lions and tigers, but not quite. Still they aren't bothering a healthy bull, with or without horns. And it doesn't matter how big their pack is.
The fact remains; wild predators ARE super selective about the bovines they tackle, and also are allowed to fail the vast majority of the time. Bulldogs aren't allowed to be selective, and aren't allowed to fail. They are on record subduing all manner of domestic cattle, all across the spectrum to the absolute meanest spanish fighting bulls, and also ALL wild bovines, gaur, bison, buffalo, whatever. And they aren't hesitating to take on the absolute best prime adult males. Talking about variation in bovine formidability is a BAD angle for a wild predator enthusiast trying to argue against bulldogs. That is what WE should be talking about, because yes lots of wild predators might loosely "have killed cattle", but dig into the details and you realise these feats are a world apart from what bulldogs do. The quality of the specimens far lower, the success rate far lower, the conditions far less favourable for the bovine, etc.
Dale be afraid, for i have sucessfully collected a doxx of you:
That summarizes 99% of the shitbull owners.
Not offense to anybody, but I have seen these arguments in real life as well on internet posts like facebook, reddit and youtube.
Good dogs do seem to attract bad guys. Wanting a dog because it can fuck things up is kind of a bad character trait, UNLESS you are hugely deeply nerdy and passionate about dogs fucking shit up like I am. Then it's different IMO.
Then on the other hand "dog moms" are fucking worthless pieces of shit, regardless of the breed they "rescue". Often they end up with pitbulls, because shelters are full of them (in Australia its actually bull arabs), and then yes THEIR precious dog is of course a saint because to them its the child they are too ugly to have.
I get this "anti pitbull" sentiment to some extent, I don't let it impact my view on pitbulls and don't really give a shit about it in general, but I get it.
Last Edit: Sept 3, 2023 23:14:15 GMT by Hardcastle
If this means "no weapons" and "clueless domestic animal" then I'm gonna have to request Hardcastle to just fucking ban you. "A pair of marauding pit bulls emerged from the edge of the bayou beyond New Orleans as the floods receded. Bred as fighting animals, their bloodlust had been sharpened by starvation. The dogs, which were wearing collars, had survived for more than two weeks but food was scarce.
They stalked towards their prey, a lone bull: a massive beast more than 10 times their combined weight. Like a wrestling tag team, the bitch and the dog attacked with awesome ferocity, leaping at the bull's head and latching on to its muzzle.
The stricken bull repeatedly shook the dogs off, flinging them up to 15 feet in the air. But they took turns to keep up the attack, exhausting the bull which was by now smeared with blood. Even after the bull trampled the bitch, leaving it dazed, the dog stepped up its attack.
The terrifying assault highlighted the US military's concern that pit bulls would form packs and could attack or even kill soldiers.
It was too dangerous for an unarmed witness to intervene but The Sunday Telegraph flagged down a National Guard truck. Seeing what was happening, a soldier shot the bitch in the head.
The dog paused before resuming the attack. It took two bullets to stop it dead."
Killing cattle (with the exception of semi-wild free-roaming cattle) isn't impressive, they are usually extremely overweight, horrible stamina, have little to no defensive ability or agression since they have been raised in predator-free sanitized small staples since birth. The fact that they get food and water every day doesn't help at all and makes it so that it's highly unlikely to survive if the humans raising them are gone. As they are so accostumed to receiving the food with no effort. The difference between wild/semi-wild cattle and domesticated cattle is greater than the difference between a "gamebred elite APBT" and a "fat blue-nosed petbull"
Heck, here in Europe farmers are heavily opposed to reintroducing EURASIAN LYNX because they fear they would kill their sheep and cows. 25kg Eurasian Lynx btw, im not talking about Bengal Tigers.
Ranchers have a reputation for being histrionic when it comes to wild carnivores. Study indicate that thylacines probably never killed livestock, yet a bunch of ranchers hunted them to extinction. Most domestic cattle are probably less skilled at fighting than wild cattle, but assuming they aren't confined in cages all their lives they are still big, strong animals that can flip a car.
Zebu cattle for instance are rather docile animals but due to their sheer strength jaguars are rarely able to bring down bulls:
"Since cattle are preferred, it is important to note that the primary breed is Zebu. Zebu cattle descended from stock from India and are gray, red, or white in color; have loose skin; large, floppy ears; and are easily identified by their hump. They are ideally suited for the Pantanal since they are both heat tolerant and parasite- and disease-resistant. Jaguars rarely killed mature bulls because it was too great a risk physically so they tend to prey on young calves (<1year old and <174kg) and females (Cavalcanti, 2008)." "Other animals that jaguars avoid are Zebu bulls and water buffaloes. There are an estimated 5000 wild water buffaloes living in the entire Pantanal and these animals can weigh up to 560kg (Alho et al., 2011). These animals were at one time domesticated but now live a feral existence (Fig. 5.5). They have learned to defend themselves by forming a circle around the vulnerable young. Male buffaloes will actually advance on the jaguar and charge at them. They can gore a jaguar or cause damage by wielding their enormous body weight. Water buffaloes are a far more formidable opponent than a bull Zebu."
Some cattle, like San Martinero cattle are more willing to throw down and are less likely to be killed despite being smaller than zebus.
[quote[Traditionally, ranchers in the Llanos relied on San Martinero cattle to maintain their herds. But in the 20th century, they began switching to imported zebu (brahman) cattle from India to improve beef production. Some die-hards hung on to their San Martineros, and the Colombian Ministry of Agriculture maintained a herd for genetic research. But by the end of the 20th century only a few thousand remained. When conservationists heard San Martinero cattle could fend off jaguars, they saw an answer to one of their thorniest problems. Zebu cattle flee when jaguars approach, leaving vulnerable calves behind. In contrast, San Martinero cattle stand their ground. Males and females both have pointy horns, and adults circle around calves to protect them. Bulls patrol the outer edges of the territory, and warn off predators with a distinctive whistle. According to Payán, jaguars actually learn the San Martinero whistle, and eventually avoid these herds. Payán cites other anti-predator traits as well: cows birth standing up and calves can stand almost immediately and wean quickly. “Just like wildebeest on the Serengeti,” he says."[/quote]
Amongst small predators, canines are probably uniquely suited to maiming much larger cattle because they have the stamina to keep dealing damage. Something like a lynx would quickly exhaust itself trying to attack a cow even if it just stood their and refused to fight back.
Good point on the histrionics of ranchers. Even when my dad was young there was a bounty on wedge tailed eagles because it was believed they killed sheep, it was total bullcrap. Now there's no bounty, in fact it is totally illegal to kill them, their numbers are happily soaring and there have been zero sheep killed by them.
Also excellent points on the cattle/jaguar situation in Brazil.
Good point on the histrionics of ranchers. Even when my dad was young there was a bounty on wedge tailed eagles because it was believed they killed sheep, it was total bullcrap. Now there's no bounty, in fact it is totally illegal to kill them, their numbers are happily soaring and there have been zero sheep killed by them.
Also excellent points on the cattle/jaguar situation in Brazil.
And that robust Pantanal cattle would beat up that morbidly obese bull that wasn't ever in a fight before and that you brag about the 2 Pitbulls not even managing to kill it lol. Extrapolating that to claim 2 Pitbulls would kill a Water Buffalo is like extrapolating beating up a morbidly obese guy with heart disease that hasn't ever been in a fight before and now believing you would beat up a heavyweight elite boxer
Pitbull really don't do a good job as complete hunter. They are not fast enough to chase in open area, nor smart enough to coordinate with the pack to corner the prey especially wild pig that has stronger fight mode. There is a reason even Bobcat which is among top 5 lone predator in North America, mostly stay away from wild pigs despite the fact that Bobcat is well known to prey on deer.
Mauler dogs are released on cornered wild pigs, by hunter to attack and restrain. Other hunting dogs with self preserving instinct know not to risk themselves charging at a cornered wild pig or most wild animal. For these maulers to kill the wild pigs, it would still be an inhumane gut wrenching long effort. Hunters use them to restrain so they can finish the wild pigs.
So in conclusion, without a human do the thinking, Pitbull would be useless as a natural predator. In a rare chance some have self preservation, they would likely opt to hunt smaller prey, instead of attacking farm animals, which make them a pest, another nuisance to the ecosystem just like wild pigs.
Predators are more likely to avoid Water Buffalo than a Pitbull because unlike Pitbulls they have self-preservation instinct and can sense where something may be too much for them.
And that robust Pantanal cattle would beat up that morbidly obese bull that wasn't ever in a fight before and that you brag about the 2 Pitbulls not even managing to kill it lol. Extrapolating that to claim 2 Pitbulls would kill a Water Buffalo is like extrapolating beating up a morbidly obese guy with heart disease that hasn't ever been in a fight before and now believing you would beat up a heavyweight elite boxer
A couple of things- that isolated case is irrelevant. That isn't why we talk about pitbulls and bulls, the "bull" in their name is why we talk about pitbulls and bulls. They are custom made bull-snatching machines, fundamentally at their core. That case merely is one visual demonstration of their aptitude.
You're also grossly underestimating the prowess of that Charolais bull, weighing in the high 2000s, possibly even 3000+ lbs. The stuff about it being a "fat wuss" is not really applicable, you're using dog logic on a bull. They are all dangerous and formidable. That IS a free-ranging bull, why do you think it is ouside in the wild being attacked by stray dogs? I can assure you no leopard or mountain lion is ever in a million years killing that bull, no jaguar either. No grizzly bear. A tiger MAYBE but it would be an extremely special tiger to do so.
This isn't speculation, such bulls exist as viable available prey (THE most available prey) in the natural range of all of the above predators. They are rarely preyed upon, never by most of these predators. They are extremely difficult prey. There are countless studies with data demonstrating this fact clearly. With predation on cattle tapering off well before they start growing into behemoths like that.
I would agree with you that a spanish fighting bull is a more dangerous and lethal opponent, but subjugation of a massive charolais bull is more difficult. We also have actual spanish fighting bulls being subdued by similar dogs (like the ebt on the spanish fighting bull during a bull fight).
You wanna talk about buffaloes?
Notice how it got monstered so much harder and so much more quickly than the charolais? That's because the charaolais is far more difficult.
Keep throwing shit at the wall, the wall is glossy and your shit is diarrhea, it will never stick.
Pitbull really don't do a good job as complete hunter. They are not fast enough to chase in open area, nor smart enough to coordinate with the pack to corner the prey especially wild pig that has stronger fight mode.
And luckily that is why they aren't tasked with any of that. They are specialised purely for the combat, they are "walked in" on lead and released only to fight the quarry. Not track it down or course it. For that yes, you mix dogs like pitbulls (or alanos or ebts or etc) with other hunting dogs, like deerhounds, greyhounds, pointers and etc. Then you get a complete hunter. The pitbull is a subjugation specialist.
There is a reason even Bobcat which is among top 5 lone predator in North America, mostly stay away from wild pigs despite the fact that Bobcat is well known to prey on deer.
Yes because bobcats are small game predators, with not 1/1000th of the predatory capacity of a pitbull, which is specialised for bulls, boars and bears. Lol.
Mauler dogs are released on cornered wild pigs, by hunter to attack and restrain. Other hunting dogs with self preserving instinct know not to risk themselves charging at a cornered wild pig or most wild animal. For these maulers to kill the wild pigs, it would still be an inhumane gut wrenching long effort. Hunters use them to restrain so they can finish the wild pigs.
Yep... so?
So in conclusion, without a human do the thinking, Pitbull would be useless as a natural predator.
Luckily this debate has nothing to do with them being natural predators. They are specialised role players in a social unit with hominids, and their role is combat/subjugation. They take the fight out of dangerous animals and make them safe for humans to handle. For that they are anything but "useless".
Predators are more likely to avoid Water Buffalo than a Pitbull because unlike Pitbulls they have self-preservation instinct and can sense where something may be too much for them.
Correct, and over millions of years this has lead evolution to make them into animals with lower combative ability than pitbulls, who weren't allowed to avoid fighting animals that were "too much for them". Instead they were forced to rise to the challenge, and that is why they are the best fighters in the animal kingdom.
How is lacking a functioning nerve system or preservation instinct a good thing lol? A wild Predator would have withdrawed and stopped the attack against the Hog after it quite literally tore it's insides open, homever the Pit, lacking preservation instinct charged again, with predictable result
"I would agree with you than an elite boxer is a more dangerous and lethal opponent, but subjugation of a massive 300kg morbidly obese man is more difficult"
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