Post by Bolushi on May 9, 2023 3:19:49 GMT
I will address your points in this order -
#1 Jaguar & Cougar comparison
#2 Eland formidability
#3 Cougar vs Leopard & Boar Predation
#4 Dogo vs Cougar/Leopard
According to you and your study, jaguars do not dominate cougars in areas where they are similar in size. Now, this may appear to somewhat debunk jaguar > cougar/leopard at parity, however when it comes to dominance between species a lot of it has to do with aggression and similarly sized predators preferring to avoid each other. On top of that, and this is the most important thing I've been careful to remember all day yesterday and today, a cougar the same weight as a jaguar appears visually larger and thus can be more intimidating, scaring the jaguar away without any sort of physical contest or threat displays. A jaguar is considerably more robust than a cougar, so it can fit more weight into a smaller body. This doesn't make the cougar > or = to the jaguar at parity, it just means it's able to scare off the jaguar as it is technically "larger" than the jaguar.
Plus, cougars avoid conflict with jaguars by having different activity patterns.
www.researchgate.net/publication/233513963_Cougar_and_jaguar_habitat_use_and_activity_patterns_in_Central_Mexico
This is in Central Mexico, an area where these 2 animals are capable of getting close in size. And it states:
''Jaguar activity was recorded mainly during nighttimes, between 0:00 and 6:00, whereas cougar was active between 4:00 and 6:00 and between 18:00 and 22:00 hours, avoiding the jaguar's principal activity period.''
When was the last time we've observed a jaguar go "STAND BACK! I WILL DETONATE NUKES AND ATOMIC BOMBS! LOOK AT HOW TOUGH ME IS!!!" and run as fast as its legs can carry it like cougars routinely end up doing against rival carnivores its size or larger? Jaguars go "uh, this isn't really good for me. I'm gonna leave." or if they get bested by a prey animal they stare at it slinking away like "maybe another day..."
A bull eland, while formidable, is actually a fair amount inferior to a buffalo cow. Whether it be an African buffalo, water buffalo or bison. It is an antelope, with rigid carriage, not a lot of durability and not much of an inclination to fight predators effectively. They are large, and they have horns they are able to use to a degree, so they can fend off most predators but make no mistake, they are a flighty antelope. These horns can occasionally score a serious hit on another animal, on top of this when multiple animals are working together on a horned animal, the horned animal can swing its head anywhere with a high likelihood of hitting something.
The fact this is rare for elands speaks volumes because bovids, suids, equids and camelids get into these fights all the time, regularly come out on top and are inclined to fight with bovids and suids being at the top of the latter.
www.thesun.co.uk/news/1145382/the-hunter-becomes-the-hunted-as-buffalo-kills-lion-in-vicious-fight/
www.wideopenspaces.com/cape-buffalo-gores-lion-epic-life-death-struggle/
ewn.co.za/2014/10/08/king-of-the-jungle-crushed-by-buffalo
www.whiskeyriff.com/2023/02/18/yellowstone-bison-herd-fights-off-bears-wolves-during-bison-funeral/
"Eisenberg & Lockhart (1972) suggested that wild boar were too aggressive and dangerous to become prey of leopards in Sri Lanka, and similar conclusions come from India (Ramakrishnan et al., 1999). The results here indicate that this may apply to all Suidae, with warthog and bushpig killed less frequently by leopards than expected on the basis of their abundance (Table 3). This is probably due to their exceeding the upper limit of the leopard’s preferred weight range, as well as their ability to inflict significant injury, such that juveniles may make up the majority of predation events."
zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7998.2006.00139.x
In this thread a leopard can be seen avoiding adult bushpig:
www.africahunting.com/threads/leopard-vs-bushpig.893/ (a lot of valuable insight about bushpig toughness there)
(Obviously a bushpig, a much smaller animal)
I'm not going to hammer home the point with equids and camelids right now, but if I have to I will in another post. Bovids and suids are just the best. An antelope is doing none of this shit, it's not even fighting. So no, a large male leopard dropping onto a giant antelope from a tree is not comparable to a cougar attacking one of the most formidable animals on Earth and antelope are firmly bottom tier when it comes to difficulty for predators. I agree, an eland is a formidable animal, but compared to bovids, suids, equids and camelids it is nothing. Antelope are not domesticated because they run at top speed from predators, leaving their protectors in the dust and leaving themselves to die.
Leopards killing adult, compromised boars happens even for average leopard species, the larger species just evolved to be actually good at it and take adult healthy specimens. Sure, a record 180-220lb cougar (cougars do not get much larger the farther North you go, that's a BS myth) can kill an adult boar. I sure hope smaller ones can- unfortunately they cannot and will not. There are 1 or 2 occasions where this happened on adults, it is similar to the leopard kill on the huge bull eland, a freak scenario. You've seen the studies noting cougars ONLY prey on tiny piglets despite adult boars -
A. Not being able to run
B. Being full of plump delicious meat for days
Unfortunately for cougars, boars are one of the animal kingdom's most formidable animals. So no adult boars for cougars, sorry cougars. Leopards can do it. They're better at different things, cougars just prey on large animals similar to antelope. Cougar vs African leopard is fair, preying on wild boars is cool and great and gives leopards a slight edge IMO but just that perhaps shows a difference in temperament. Not physical superiority and thus it still remains a contest.
Dogos thrash both, but a leopard might win at parity of 110-120lbs, and I would not fancy a 115lb Dogo's odds against a 130lb leopard while I might against a 130lb cougar. I don't think a cougar will ever have decent odds at weights of 60-110lbs. 115-130lbs is where it becomes arguable, 125-130lbs is where it begins to become a 50/50. Now, detract my cougar estimates by 10 and that's what I think about leopards.
A jaguar should also "ragdoll" a cougar or leopard at parity, but jaguars aren't as good at fighting as gripping dogs, nor acquiring and maintaining control, nor do they have the same anti-cougar/leopard attributes that gripping dogs have.
Cougars are held in low esteem, have a poor response when assailed, and get bested by Dogo Argentino x Spanish greyhound crosses. If you're going to argue the cat was disadvantaged, you need to state how, with evidence. Now "aah me thinks cougar declawed because the dog won" is not evidence. I've never seen a cat fan present evidence that isn't from an animal rights organization. So I'm gonna be excitedly waiting for real evidence about how exactly cougars are disadvantaged.
I don't know much about leopard vs gripping dog besides they're somewhat similar to cougars. I know of a case of 2 Boerboel x APBT brothers killing a 120-140lb (weight estimates fluctuate but the most relevant estimate is 120lbs, evidently large) leopard, Clinton Cilliers had 2 Boerboel x APBT brothers he used as dispatch dogs.
"I used to keep in touch with a bloke from south africa and he had two boerboelXpits he used them as basically dispatch dogs on a game reserve they managed to kill a health male leopard which had been taking stock, the leopard was cornered in a goat shed and the dogs killed him although they needed a fair bit of vets attention afterwards. The cat was weighed at 120lbs and the dogs were roughly 110lbs each. The guy now owns neo mastiffs"
That's the best I have, and then some vague testimony and a video of a Bully Kutta and Bully Kutta x herder cross killing an Indian leopardess that they caught on their own. That's as far as catch dogs go, LGDs have killed leopards and a leopard is on video getting dragged by a Ghaddi Kutta, not to be confused with the Bully Kutta, they're similar to Tibetan Mastiffs & Himalayan Sheep Dogs. Dogging leopards is largely illegal so evidence is scarce and also I don't know what languages leopard hunters use so I can't search stuff up in different languages.
Note: I don't want to quote you again and make the thread unnecessarily longer, so, I'll just edit this one.
I really loved this forum and don't want it to die 😞😢😔. I know I haven't been the most regular poster, and I apologise for that but I already explained to Hardcastle . I actually just finished the exams last week.
I've wanted to respond to this post for a while now, it just doesn’t feel right to leave it unattended to.
I saw what you said on Discord. I've always liked and respected you, but you just choose to repay evil for good and act mischievous and naughty. Anyway, I forgive you, the past is in the past.
Let me reply in the order that you chose:
● Jaguar and Cougar comparison
Regarding the Jaguar and Cougar discussion at parity, I feel like people give Pantherines too much respect when comparing them to the cougar, because Pantherines strike as more formidable, and for the most part, they are (3 out of the 5 Panthera genus cats are stronger than cougars).
When you say the jaguar was "intimidated" because the cougar looks "bigger", that sounds more like unwillingness rather than inability. Personally, I take the jaguar-cougar interactions as inability of jaguars to dominate cougars, rather than an unwillingness. This is true because we get to another part of their range where jaguar is the undisputed top cat, and that is the Pantanal.
Here, jaguars are far above cougars, they can literally be twice the weight of the cougar, and there's no question as to who's the stronger cat. This leads me to believe that yes, ultimately "Jaguar > Cougar", like as a general rule, jaguars as a species scale above cougars as a species, but the jaguar needs a size advantage to show its dominance, that is, at equal weights, it is basically the same thing as a puma, except that it’s wearing a spotted coat rather than a plain one.
Jaguars are a monotypic cat, that is they have no subspecies. This is to say that the jaguars in North America and those in South America are all the same as in "Jaguar". Yes, there's "South American Jaguar" and there's "North American Jaguar", but that's populations, not subspecies since there isn't enough genetic variation for scientists to classify them as subspecies (there were "subspecies" at a point, but after a while, scientists revised jaguar classification and found out that they're all the same).
The point I’m making is that those in the North are essentially the same as those in the South, except that those in the South get bigger. So, I believe that generally, they'll react to cougars in the same way and the only reason they would not is if the cougar approached them in size.
Why is it that in the Pantanal, jaguars can lord it over cougars, but they don’t up North? Why is it only when the jaguar is substantially larger that it can exercise dominance? They are the same jaguars, not a separate type of jaguar (so I think we can safely say that there isn't too much variation in temperaments and courage and the likes).
Jaguars aren’t really intimidated by "size", so I don’t think a cougar appearing "larger" would be enough to put it on the run (like in that video, the jaguar didn't run, instead it put the cougar on the run).
They're not intimidated by caimans in their elements, they're not intimidated by anacondas (largest snake), so I think "larger" size in itself is enough to put it on the run. I think the jaguar acknowledges that facing an equal sized cat is dangerous, even if you're the human-proclaimed "pound for pound, strongest cat."
I say that they have a healthy respect for cougars when they're similar in size because they acknowledge that they need a good size advantage to show that "Jaguar > Cougar", but lose that respect when they get the size advantage (in the South).
Besides, at equal weights, cougars don’t look much bigger than jaguars. In fact, you can hardly tell the difference in size.
● Eland Formidability
I was honestly still shaky in my eland formidability scale, but I think I have become decided. I don’t think it's on the same level as a bison or buffalo in a fight, but I think that from a predator’s point of view, they are actually similar.
I actually disagree with you saying they are nothing to camelids, equids, and suids, especially camelids and equids.
Now "suids" is too generic a term. I presume you're talking about the Wild Boar (Sus scrofa) specifically if I'm right because I don't think animals like warthogs, red river hogs and domestic pigs are superior to a giant eland, I don’t think so, and neither should you. That would just be cap.
Suppose you are talking about the Wild boar, then I might actually still disagree, to be honest. As much as I know that the wild boar is extremely strong and resilient for its size, when we compare the eland and the boar at their maximum sizes, from a size perspective ALONE, the boar looks outmatched.
The biggest wild boar CAUGHT (please notice the word "caught", and not "that ever lived") weighed 350 kg and was captured in Turkey: www.gentside.de/tier/das-grosste-wildschwein-der-welt-das-sus-scrofa-attila-ist-das-monster-der-turkischen-walder_art5129.html
“Weighed more than 350 kg” a little vague, but I think you and I can agree that it most likely isn’t up to 400 kg, otherwise it would just have been reported as “400 kg” or “close to 400 kg.” “Weighed more than 350 kg" to me connotes that it’s hanging around the 350 kg mark, maybe 355 kg or some figure close to 360 kg.
One of the largest elands measured weighed over 4000 pounds which is more than 1818 kg: poststar.com/sports/local/bowhunter-harvests-possible-world-record-eland-in-africa/article_b0065a94-d8d5-5042-89da-e5bfb52ff374.html
It was kind of suspected that it was the largest that was captured, but I don’t think it was ascertained, there might be elands out there that are even larger than that, don’t know. The value actually kind of looks ridiculous, that’s larger than even the largest recorded semi domestic bison! It’s not until I converted it to kg before I realised that that’s REAAAALLY massive.
The eland is more than 5 times bigger than the boar. I don’t yet know what you think, I’m curious to, but that doesn’t look good for the boar. Yes, I know that a 350 kg boar can definitely send even the fittest of Siberian tigers to an early grave if just one wrong move is made, but a 1818 kg eland should smash an entire pride of lions to smithereens. I just don’t see anything the boar could do, let’s be realistic. Hell, an eland of that size would crush most cape buffaloes. I just felt that you were kind of underselling the eland. With wild boars out of the way, I don’t think equids and camelids deserve any explanation.
I also disagree that there are only a few cases of elands killing lions.
• Even the much smaller sable antelope has been stated to have killed lions MANY TIMES: singita.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Singita-Pamushana-Wildlife-Report-June-2014.pdf (Warning: You may experience some difficulty in opening this PDF. But be calm, patience is a virtue)
“When sable are threatened and cannot escape, they confront the predator, including lions, and use their scimitar-shaped horns to fight it. There are several accounts of lions being killed by sable during such fights.”
• Sable antelope stand their ground against predators, and confront them. This is actually a “FIGHTY” antelope and maybe not so much a “FLIGHTY” one: books.google.com.br/books?id=OhlPAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT352&lpg=PT352&dq=When
“However, when sable antelope are threatened by a predator, INCLUDING LIONS, they will CONFRONT IT, using their scimitar-shaped horns. MANY OF THESE BIG CATS have died during such fights.”
• Lions are actually stated to rarely tackle them, proof of how formidable they are. It’s said that only humans pose a threat to them: animaldiversity.org/accounts/Hippotragus_niger/
“Lions SELDOM attack adults because of their size and the FORMIDABLE FIGHTING ABILITIES of these antelope. Humans are the only real threat to adult sable antelope and their populations.”
If sable antelope can do that, then there would almost certainly if not most certainly be many cases where elands (that are much larger) have killed lions. They probably just don’t get reported as much as cases of buffaloes killing lions. Also, the public isn’t as keen on elands as it is on buffaloes. Lions also probably cross paths with buffaloes more often than they do with elands, so obviously there would be higher chances of being killed by buffaloes. Lions actually get their asses kicked a lot more than what we see on screen.
While one can bring up the fact that the sable antelope has special horns that help it in combat, which might be superior to those of the eland, there’s still a measure of physical strength involved. You can’t take the horns of a sable antelope and put them on an impala, hoping that would make the impala invulnerable to lion predation.
Antelope can actually be pretty formidable against predators. I think people actually underrate them in their ability to fend off predators. When you hear “antelope”, what probably comes to mind is an impala, or a gazelle or kudu. There are certain antelope species that can actually prove challenging for even the higher calibre of predators like lions.
● Cougar vs Leopard and Boar Predation
I don't have much to say here. I know that the Persian leopard is a boar specialist and all. I just wanted to add that cougars are actually good at taking on hogs too. Obviously, "Cougar vs Leopard" is the closest big cat fight. I don’t need to dwell on that.
• Florida Panthers are said to prey on hogs with a very good amount of frequency: archive.org/details/floridapanther00silv
“The Florida panther is a large carnivore that requires SUBSTANTIAL amounts of food. It OFTEN catches prey that is bigger than itself . White-tailed deer and WILD HOGS typically make up 75 percent of the panther’s diet.” (Page 13)
• Florida panthers love hogs so much that their survival can be threatened by hog scarcity:
“Hunters have also threatened the panther’s survival by killing deer and HOGS, reducing the amount of prey available to the native predators.” (Page 26)
• Florida panthers control the feral hog population so well that when the panther is absent, the feral hog population blossoms:
“Although panthers tend to be scarce in areas where wild hogs are plentiful, the reason may be that people hunt in these areas and disturb the habitat.” (Page 27)
Obviously, they can’t be controlling the population if it’s ONLY piglets they’re killing, that’s just not happening. Among all those hogs that cougars kill, a good portion of them would definitely be adults. Some individual cougars might (“would” actually) even be more specialised at taking hogs than others. At this point, I must say that it is a dishonest assessment that cougars NEVER prey on adult boars and ONLY kill piglets. That’s simply not true.
I understand that “feral hog” and “wild boar” aren’t EXACTLY one and the same, there’s no need to lecture me on the difference. Point is that the 2 are close enough to be used as analogues. Since Florida panthers can and do kill feral hogs, then that experience would definitely be of some use against actual wild (not previously domesticated, or mixed with wild suids) boars. Even though leopards may kill boars more, cougars are definitely not novices in the art.
Besides, if a 16-month-old tiger can walk up to a boar face-to-face and kill it, then it’s not unreasonable to imagine a full-grown cougar replicating that: web.archive.org/web/20130324195702/http://www.baodatviet.vn/khoa-hoc-cong-nghe/the-gioi-quanh-ta/201303/Chua-son-lam-chien-lon-rung-khoi-bui-mit-mu-2343681/
(Notice that the boar was explicitly stated to be healthy at the beginning. So we know that this wasn't a boar that was compromised).
A 16-month-old tiger is barely fit to have left its mother’s side and it can take down an adult boar. I don't know about you, but I don’t think a 16-month-old tiger is stronger than a male North American puma or even a female tbh.
Also notice how the tiger skillfully stood sideways and turned to screw the boar's head to the ground in order to protect itself from the boar's tusks. I can imagine a puma doing the exact same thing.
Sure, it can be argued that the tiger still used a surprise attack, but it was from the front and a good part of the battle took part with the tiger being right in the boar's front.
At a point, the tiger was literally biting the boar's back from the front (in the tenth picture). The boar also put up a good resistance, trying to knock the tiger off, so I think we can safely say that this was a legitimate fight and not a young tiger creeping up on a sleeping or TOTALLY or heavily disadvantaged oblivious boar.
This interaction was a battle, one in which a cougar could have replaced the tiger and won.
● Dogo vs Cougar/Leopard
Now this is arguably the most interesting part. You and Hardcastle might actually be right after all about “Dogo argentino vs Cougar or Leopard” at parity. After doing some investigation, I should say that you have some solid arguments.
Even though, I genuinely don’t like the idea of a dog being able to defeat a big cat (a big cat that isn’t a cheetah), to be fair, there actually is evidence that they can.
I did some research and found out that Boerboels can and have killed leopards in Africa.
• One was even stated to have killed 4 leopards back to back in 4 different combats until it met its end in a battle with a fifth leopard, probably due to old age and the battle wounds it had accumulated over the years: archive.org/details/standardencyclop0004unse
“They are excellent fighters and often have to fight beasts of prey. One Boer mastiff killed, over a period of some years, FOUR leopards in SINGLE COMBAT before himself succumbing in a fifth fight.” (Page 57)
• Then, there’s also this, that talks about the boerboel’s special ability to combat leopards and why it was chosen over the “mastiff”, “bulldog”, and the “boarhound”. It also says that leopards are a formidable for, but that boerboels can and do kill them. The word “tiger” appears to be used in place of “leopard”, but I think that’s what leopards are called in Afrikaans (don’t know, I just think it’s likely). Obviously, we know it’s leopards that are being referred to because it says “tigers and baboons”, and tigers don’t coexist with baboons. Plus, it was written by “A South African”: journals.co.za/doi/epdf/10.10520/AJA0000018_1086
• Boerboels are used to hunt leopards in Africa, though it’s said that they usually get seriously wounded if they are able to survive. But some do it with little injuries to themselves: heinemanboerboels.wordpress.com/boerboel-history/
“Killing leopard – The biggest hunting function of the Boerboel lies in fighting predators. Stories of Boerboels killing leopard in South Africa are VERY COMMON. If the Boerboel survives he seldom does so without serious wounds. Up to this day there are still farmers that hunt leopard with only one Boerboel, and that dog regularly kills the leopard with very little harm done to himself. The type of dog favoured by farmers is the more agile Boerboel.”
It also contains an account of a FEMALE boerboel killing a MALE lion, but I don’t know about that (the lion isn’t explicitly stated to be a male, but it says “killed him”):
“An unfortunate Boerboel bitch that ended up in the lions cage, felt that her time had not come yet, and she somehow got hold of the lion’s throat and killed him. It was probably great news at the time and she was used for breeding after that.”
I think “Boerboel vs Leopard” is comparable to “Dogo argentino vs Cougar”, seeing that they’re both mastiffs, they both can be used to capture cattle and stuff, even though boerboels are mostly used on the farm, and obviously, cougar and leopard are perfect analogues for each other.
Now, I don’t want to be a biased cat fan and start asking, “what was the health status of those leopards?”, “what was their gender?”, “were the dogs bigger than them?”. If I saw an account or accounts of a leopard killing a boerboel, I honestly wouldn’t ask any of those questions for how the leopard won.
I’d just take it as “yes, the leopard killed the boerboel in a fight”, since that’s what I like anyway. I’m sure you understand. As a dog fan, you also like the idea of a dog being able to kill a big cat, you’re happy when you see a dogo argentino beating a cougar.
Therefore, I don’t think it would be fair for me to get an electron microscope and be over scrutinising how the dog came about its victory.
So, yeah, you kind of have the victory at last. I should still say that I’m open to the possibility of cougars and leopards being able to win at parity, since I’m the most biased cat fan in existence (oh sorry, I forgot, it’s not me, it’s ApexBoy [who I very much suspect is the same as CoolJohnson ] who said a boerboel needs to be at least 2 to 3 times the size of a snow leopard for it to have a chance).
I’m kind of reluctantly throwing in the towel. I don’t want to say I am. Just that I will no longer debate you on “Gripping dog vs Big Cat” at parity. I’ll still try to find anything I can about cougars and leopards being able to defeat dogo argentinos even at parity (trust me, I’m searching far and wide). But until I do, I think you have the W.
Just one thing: How the jaguar defeated Hercules, with cougars being able to dominate jaguars and still not defeating gripping dogs at parity will forever remain a mystery.
I've figured as much that you respect my existence, I'm just more confrontational and more of an asshole than my peers and that ticks you off while Hardcastle is old and wise and Lincoln is a pacifist so you get along with him. I've messaged him like "Nigga, Supercat favors a cougar over quintillions of Dogos and you're doing NOTHING?! UNACCEPTABLE! Fight for the honor of the mighty gripping dog or our dreams will be GONE, we must UNITE!!! Catch my drift you comprehending nigga?" and he's like "nghhh i don't want to, supercat is my best friend" and I give him a weird look and slap him across the face. (slight exaggeration)
Most of the time when 2 predators interact, the larger one will have the upper-hand over the smaller one. Wild predators don't have the concept of weight. This isn't the entire reason of course, since 2 formidable wild carnivorans of similar weight will be an issue for each other in a fight which is why they may decide it's best to avoid each other.
A jaguar would most certainly defeat a cougar its weight, but at what cost? Both are similarly sized cats, both are powerful, in a skirmish it could go either way. Since a skirmish would be a few paw swipes and aggression displays, not a test of strength between the 2. So, there's no serious fight for the jaguar to exert its superior strength over the cougar and getting scratched to all hell and tore up in a bad way isn't pleasant. Their interactions are mostly, to me, "the more determined one wins". If a female cougar with cubs comes across a female jaguar, and that cougar gets very aggressive and is willing to fight, that jaguar doesn't have any reason to endure the fight because it's high risk and little reward. This doesn't mean the jaguar runs for the hills and is afraid, it literally just moseys off and is like "whatever...". Like this jaguar wandering away from the peccary that managed to beat it up -
It's calmly wandering off like "yeah, you won this one, maybe next time...". That's what the response is to cougars, I'd wager.
And I think cougars see jaguars as a much bigger deal and their extra effort to avoid conflict by putting up fiercer defense displays and acting crazier bodes well for them. I've even seen that cougars occasionally confront jaguars and see them off. This is cool stuff but it's not the animals fighting and then deciding who's stronger, it's 2 animals who don't like being hurt... avoiding being hurt.
Yes they do, the cougar is taller and longer. It makes their defensive displays a little more convincing but I really think it's the extra effort playing the biggest role.
Elands are antelope. Their large size means they may be able to do some things offensively that a boar can't, maybe a giant eland could toss a lion into the air, but they are still flighty with offense that could be improved on and durability that could definitely be improved on. A hog has far more versatile weaponry, know how to use it, and are far more durable than an eland is. I just still feel like 250lb hog is superior to an eland up to 4x that size. Or more. Certainly way more dangerous to a predator despite what once in a lifetime feats antelope can achieve. Antelope have horns, indeed if lions kill 500,000 antelope a select few (in the single digits most likely) could kill a lion just by luck.
This eland got every chance to turn and fight, to defend itself, but despite being obviously slow with zero chance of outrunning the lions it still decided to try and flee. It did regain its footing a few times, it put up somewhat of a passive fight due to its size, but when a lion jumped on its back it went down like a sailboat getting hit with a cannonball and had no answer after that -
This eland did nothing, and it was monstrously larger. Imagine how quickly the lion would get stomped out and gored to death if it tried that on a prime hog or buffalo?
I know it's lions and an eland cannot be expected to overcome a few lions but the last video shown a huge size disparity, the lion should have not won. Contrast that to a buffalo to see the stark difference, both result in a kill but the buffalo is obviously much tougher:
That's a male lion, and the buffalo isn't even an impressive specimen and it's a cow buffalo. And the buffalo was lacking behind the others so it might've even been a little young. Yet there was a power struggle, a fight, a wrestling match, a willingness to fight for its life... why don't we see any of that with the much larger eland?
Those sable antelope accounts are weird but also clearly an insanely rare occurrence. I guess due to the nature of their size and their formidable-ish horns and speed something could feasibly occur that harms or kills an opponent who is lightyears out of its league.
I don't think domestic pigs are much worse than feral ones. Domestic doesn't mean much. Domestic pigs can be quite tough, but also have spiraled into deteriorating directions and may suffer "pampered pet syndrome".
They prey on them with a good amount of frequency... young ones. The hogs drove everything else out, they need to fall back on hogs. A piglet is not much of a meal, so they need to kill a lot of piglets. That's fine. I consider feral hogs as wild boar, there's no difference. If anything feral hogs are more savage but they're really just equal.
The creators of that article are saying they control feral hogs since there's no other predator that can besides the sluggish and lethargic python and semi-aquatic alligator, crocodile, and the omnivorous black bear. All animals who just won't bother much or don't have much opportunity. Florida panthers do, and indeed they kill hogs. I've seen all this stuff in my quest to view as much FL Panther data as possible, and yes they can ALL be piglets or youngsters.
The article clearly shows us the tiger ambushing the hog, and the hog being below average. Here:
You can actually clearly see its ribs and malnourished body. This hog is small, and very elderly on the looks of it. This hog is starving to death and the tiger ambushed it while it tried to take a drink. By all means a cougar could kill a hog like that, I hope at least. Blind faith. Also that tiger would beat a cougar, the largest most dominant Patagonian males would have something to say against that tiger but that tiger cannot be replaced with your average cougar and be expected success. A cougar can kill THAT hog, yes, elderly starving small hogs are liable to be preyed upon by cougars. I know they said it was healthy but it's clearly not...
Here's a healthy hog for comparison in the same region:
They get bigger and meaner too -
Panthers get threatened by deer scarcity which was mentioned there. When the hogs chase away the deer, the panthers prey on the young hogs. Hunters shooting the deer hurt the panthers who need to resort to preying on young hogs even though an adult deer is more rewarding and much easier to take down. Panthers, if they could type, would say "ugh, hogs are so fucking shit, they chased away the deer. Now I have to eat them. I feel like a 5 year old being forced to eat brussel sprouts, ewwww"
Those Boerboel accounts are strange, I knew they hunted leopards but I never actually saw anything about it. I actually figured the Boerboel was a little too small to be optimal, since a working Boerboel should be in the 60-100lb range and leopards get to 90-130lbs. 110-130lbs for adult males most of the time. Alas, those instances seem to be in Cape. An area where the cape leopard resides and weighs 60-100lbs, usually in the 70-80lb range. Incidentally the same size as a working Boerboel, indeed at those weights a Boerboel just thrashes a leopard to death. I can see the dominant male specimens scratching the hell out of a Boerboel and needing some vet attention and staples. I can also see Boerboels ragdolling leopards with little injury, nature is not black and white. On top of this a female is 52lbs on average, I don't see a Boerboel getting hurt in any way by a female. So yeah, these are instances of equal sized dogs fighting equal sized leopards and killing them. A prime male African leopard averaging 130lbs against an 80lb working Boerboel... the Boerboel would fend it off, it's too tough, but in an actual fight I don't think that Boerboel would have a good time.
I also think the account of the Boerboel killing a lion is BS, but of course if the lion was in a cage it could've been a captive pampered pet and lost somehow... I don't think so. A Boerboel breeder would definitely inflate the Boerboel like that.
So yeah, cool findings. It'd be nice if they were from a more formidable kind of leopard but we know a Boerboel can ragdoll a 50-80lb leopard its own size. Promising sign. Boerboel vs leopard is similar but not quite the same since the Boerboel is slightly smaller in weight. A working Boerboel will generally top out at around 100lbs, a working Dogo will generally top out at around 120lbs and can be up to 130lbs without suffering from their size. 140lbs... this is where things get bad and a 140lb Dogo is going to lose to a 140lb cougar or leopard. Dogo and Boerboel sizes do overlap but usually a Dogo is around 20-30lbs larger than a working Boerboel.
Today, a "decent Boerboel" is quite rare and will weigh 140lbs or under. An "elite Boerboel" is exceedingly rare but they are the real working bulldog the Boerboel is supposed to be. So, on average a pet Boerboel is far larger than a pet Dogo is, but with working specimens it's flipped on its head.
That's... rare. A noble decision.
