Dogo Argentino vs African leopard

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vs

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I'd favor a 130lb leopard over a Dogo just barely, 50/50 for a 125lb leopard, Dogo favored against 120lb leopard.
I could be underestimating the Dogo, I know that a cougar needs every bit of 130lbs to be favored over a Dogo, and cougars have superior forelimb strength to leopards. I don't know if that was pound for pound though. The leopard definitely seems tougher for dogs, both in books and seemingly in practice. We've got a guy saying a leopard killed a 30lb bull terrier, predating on hounds but a large hound can fend one off, and 3 Broholmer dogs being needed to safely lug a leopard. We've also got 2 Dogos with a big-ish leopard kill, but the details of the event is unknown. I suspect knife, but it seems like the Dogo is just backup. Like the reason there was only one bluetick is because there were 2 Dogos right there to protect the hound, apparently that's most of their occupation. However, the nature of these hunts make it inevitable that occasionally a Dogo or 2 will catch a leopard on the ground. And the Dogo WILL spear into it. I don't know if they caught that leopard on the ground though...
Assuming a 115lb Dogo, a 100lb Dogo is at combat parity with a 115lb leopard, a 95lb Dogo is at combat parity with a 110lb leopard.

[Deleted]

Average weights for leopards are around 120-130 right? It appears to be a tossup at average weights, and the Dogo runs around 95-125 with many running on the higher end, and a 115-120lb Dogo is the best candidate for this match.

[Deleted]

A 140lb leopard would require 2 Dogos, which would destroy it if 1 Dogo is occupied with the face and the other aids that area and they just topple the leopard over and kill it with scratches. 2 young dumb Boerboel x APBT brothers did it.

[PumAcinonyx SuperCat]

Hey guys, how's everyone doing? Ok, so I'm not really back, but I just thought about keeping this thread active. This thread crossed my mind while I was thinking about my "Cougar vs Bison" post. Now, just ignore that last part of cougar and bison. I'm beside myself every time I talk about that, just ignore me. That will be so until I release my second post on the subject.

And what I was thinking about was how often we all talk about cougar and leopard as if they were interchangeable. One thing I’m sure anyone who has been in the animal debate community for at least a decent amount of time without being inordinately affectionate or unnecessarily hostile towards either of these cats would agree on is that they are pretty much neck and neck. Most reasonable debaters will tell you that it's hard to categorically say who is stronger between leopard and cougar. And I'm in line with that. In fact for me, this is the closest fight between 2 big cats, even closer than lion and tiger because the percentage difference in size between the 2 is actually less than that between lion and tiger. But even though it gets recognition and is the source of contentions on debating platforms, it isn’t as heavily talked about as "lion vs tiger", more because the 2 cats aren't as popular as their larger cousins and also because lions and tigers are the 2 strongest cats, so a fight between them would be more "powery" than that between cougar and leopard, even though the latter is arguably a closer fight.

The implications of cougar being very similar to leopard is that one can be used to a quite high degree as a predictor of how the other would perform in a given situation. That is to say, we can use one to: predict the possible predation feats of the other, judge how the other would perform in a similar situation, judge how the other would perform in a fight against a third party animal and the likes. I say "to a quite high degree" because there are still differences between the 2 that can cause one to have a different outcome from the other. They have different temperaments, different personalities, etc all which although not the main stuff, are still subtle in the scheme of things.

So yes, I made mention of how a leopard killed a 900 kg eland in my "Cougar vs Bison" post in defence of my view on the topic. My rationale was that a leopard being able to pull off a predation feat where the predator to prey weight ratio was 1 : 9 was somewhat indicative of a cougar being able to do the same, though on a different target: the American Bison.

I received a line in my comment section that an eland is not comparable to both a bison and a buffalo, and that a buffalo cow although smaller than a bull eland can defend itself much better than one. Now, this is a really shaky statement, one which doesn't seem to be based on anything solid, like for what reason exactly do you think a bull eland is an easier challenge than a buffalo cow (emphasis on "cow")?

As a matter of fact, I don’t think a bull eland is necessarily inferior to either a buffalo or a bison bull, at least in their ability to defend against predators. This is a case where an eland seriously wounded one MALE lion during an attack of a LION PRIDE on it: www.sheldrickwildlifetrust.org/news/updates/the-mara-vet-unit-rescues-an-injured-lion (taken from Carnivora)

So, that leopard sure deserves a lot of credit, even though I admit it's not what happens on a normal day. Now whether or not you think an eland is ~ to a bison or buffalo is irrelevant. The point is that it was only normal for me to use that feat as a predictor of what a cougar is capable of.

This is why every time I see "leopards kill adult, though compromised boars, while cougars don’t prey on any adult boars at all" I almost get a seizure. It's as if that statement is meant to say that leopards are far ahead of cougars in predation feats and hence would stomp them in a fight. Remember that the leopards doing this are one of the largest in the world and that they have no competition, while the largest cougars don't only not coexist with boars, but also have competition which would make wild boars an unwise option even if they were available. For sure, if you replaced the Persian leopards with large male cougars from British Colombia, they would definitely kill adult boars the same way the spotted cats currently do.

Let me get to the point. If you say that just because a leopard killed an eland more than 9 times its size doesn't mean a cougar could kill a bison many times its size (whether it's 9 or not is unimportant), then you've broken the leopard ~ cougar rule. On account of this, don't you think it would be wrong of you to judge "Dogo argentino vs African leopard" based on "Dogo argentino vs Puma".

I'm saying this because the main argument of the dogo supporters on this forum is how dogo argentinos do against pumas. Let's be honest, it's kind of impossible to talk about "Dogo argentino vs African leopard" without talking about or making reference to "Dogo argentino vs Cougar". That's the anchor of any pro dogo argentino debater in this debate. You're going to be like "Dogo argentinos already dominate cougars, why would leopards be any different?" But this would be hypocritical if you already said "leopard kills eland is not = cougar kills bison", because that statement already states that there's possibility for leopard to be "any different". Therefore, I too would be right if I said "dogo argentino beats cougar is not = dogo argentino beats leopard". The point I'm making is that if we agree and wish to continue to agree that leopard ~ cougar, then we must not deviate from that and say "a leopard killed a bull eland (which is a bovine) 9 times its size, doesn't mean a cougar can kill a bison (another bovine) 7 times its size" because that would be BS. As a matter of fact, that’s what it means.

Also, the dogo supporters on the forum (I'm sure we know who they are) say that jaguars beat bull breeds at parity. And this got me wondering "why jaguars, but not cougars and leopards?".

They say that leopards and cougars don’t do well against catch dogs at parity, but that jaguars do and even beat them. This is based on a fight that took place between a champion fighting bulldog named Caporal, and a Jaguar in the 1800s. First, is this a fair comparison? I mean, that's just one fight, that's the only case we have of a jaguar fighting a bulldog.

Second, if their belief was true, then that means that jaguars are >>>>> leopards and cougars at equal weights. That’s what it should translate to. Since jaguars can beat catch dogs at parity, and those catch dogs allegedly ragdoll leopards and cougars at parity, then jaguars should ragdoll cougars and leopards at parity.

But what I find surprising is that there are parts of their range where jaguars and cougars coexist and are of similar size. If jaguars really were >>>>>> cougars at parity, wouldn't this reflect in their interactions with each other? But it doesn’t. Cougars aren’t dominated by jaguars at similar weights and they don't even avoid jaguars. In fact, some researchers believed that cougars actually dominated jaguars in some cases (remember we're still talking about a region where both jaguar and cougar are very similar in size):


"For example, evidence that jaguars are dominant is strongest in areas where jaguars are large and weigh considerably more than pumas, but more ambiguous where the two species are more similar in size".


"Whereas some authors were certain they found evidence that jaguars were dominant over pumas (e.g., Harmsen et al., 2009), other researchers, from areas where jaguars are smaller and sometimes numerically fewer than pumas, suggested the two species may be AT LEAST EQUAL IN COMPETITIVE INTERACTIONS, or even that PUMAS MAY BE DOMINANT OVER JAGUARS".


Source: www.researchgate.net/publication/322685482_Are_pumas_subordinate_carnivores_and_does_it_matter

So, I'm sort of confused, maybe this calls for a reevaluation of our stance on "Dogo argentino vs Cougar and Leopard", maybe they aren’t actually beating cougars and leopards at equal weights, maybe the cats they beat are actually smaller than them or if not, maybe they are compromised or disadvantaged in one way or the other.

Because honestly, I can't think of any explanation for why Jaguar >~ (slightly greater than) bull breeds at parity >>>> leopards and cougars at parity, but yet, jaguar DOES NOT dominate cougar at parity. Clearly there's some explanation that needs to be done there. That's why I'm curious to know what you guys (CoolJohnson lincoln @ling Methane @haileyspino Wyatt ) think, particularly Hardcastle and Bolushi .

[PumAcinonyx SuperCat]

In response to my statement regarding jaguars and cougars, someone might want to post this famous YouTube video of a jaguar "dominating" a cougar in I think Mexico or some Central American country. In the YouTube comments, it's clear that some people misunderstand the encounter, while you see others interpret it accurately.

The jaguar didn't exactly dominate the cougar. The jaguar had something to fight for (her cub), the cougar didn't, so if it stayed around to fight, that would have been a foolish decision. This is especially true considering that it is more likely to lose (I still believe a jaguar would win against a cougar more often than not in a fight to the death at equal weights, just that it's not going to be a stomp, the victory of whoever emerges victorious would be hard-fought).

If it had been the other way round, that is, if it was the cougar with a cub or more realistically, some cubs (as cougars typically have more than one cub), and the jaguar was the one passing by, it's very likely that it's the jaguar that would have been put on the run. It would most likely come to the same conclusion that the cougar did: that it's not wise to fight when you have nothing to fight for, while your opponent does. Cougars have demonstrated that they can fend off even grizzlies when protecting their cubs, I don't see why a similar-sized cat (in this part of the world) would scare them. So, this video is no proof of jaguars being far above cougars at parity. Again, this is important regarding whether dogo argentinos really do beat cougars at equal weights. Is it that cougars and jaguars are competitively equal, but jaguars are able to keep their cool against catch dogs, while cougars aren’t, in which case, their respective performances against catch dogs would be more psychologically based rather than physically based, that is, it's more of mindset (a determination to win, an ability to compose yourself better) rather than the jaguar just being blatantly much more talented than the cougar in physical strength at equal weights, or what exactly?

[Bolushi]

Mar 7, 2023 16:00:36 GMT PumAcinonyx SuperCat said:

Hey guys, how's everyone doing? Ok, so I'm not really back, but I just thought about keeping this thread active. This thread crossed my mind while I was thinking about my "Cougar vs Bison" post. Now, just ignore that last part of cougar and bison. I'm beside myself every time I talk about that, just ignore me. That will be so until I release my second post on the subject.

And what I was thinking about was how often we all talk about cougar and leopard as if they were interchangeable. One thing I’m sure anyone who has been in the animal debate community for at least a decent amount of time without being inordinately affectionate or unnecessarily hostile towards either of these cats would agree on is that they are pretty much neck and neck. Most reasonable debaters will tell you that it's hard to categorically say who is stronger between leopard and cougar. And I'm in line with that. In fact for me, this is the closest fight between 2 big cats, even closer than lion and tiger because the percentage difference in size between the 2 is actually less than that between lion and tiger. But even though it gets recognition and is the source of contentions on debating platforms, it isn’t as heavily talked about as "lion vs tiger", more because the 2 cats aren't as popular as their larger cousins and also because lions and tigers are the 2 strongest cats, so a fight between them would be more "powery" than that between cougar and leopard, even though the latter is arguably a closer fight.

The implications of cougar being very similar to leopard is that one can be used to a quite high degree as a predictor of how the other would perform in a given situation. That is to say, we can use one to: predict the possible predation feats of the other, judge how the other would perform in a similar situation, judge how the other would perform in a fight against a third party animal and the likes. I say "to a quite high degree" because there are still differences between the 2 that can cause one to have a different outcome from the other. They have different temperaments, different personalities, etc all which although not the main stuff, are still subtle in the scheme of things.

So yes, I made mention of how a leopard killed a 900 kg eland in my "Cougar vs Bison" post in defence of my view on the topic. My rationale was that a leopard being able to pull off a predation feat where the predator to prey weight ratio was 1 : 9 was somewhat indicative of a cougar being able to do the same, though on a different target: the American Bison.

I received a line in my comment section that an eland is not comparable to both a bison and a buffalo, and that a buffalo cow although smaller than a bull eland can defend itself much better than one. Now, this is a really shaky statement, one which doesn't seem to be based on anything solid, like for what reason exactly do you think a bull eland is an easier challenge than a buffalo cow (emphasis on "cow")?

As a matter of fact, I don’t think a bull eland is necessarily inferior to either a buffalo or a bison bull, at least in their ability to defend against predators. This is a case where an eland seriously wounded one MALE lion during an attack of a LION PRIDE on it: www.sheldrickwildlifetrust.org/news/updates/the-mara-vet-unit-rescues-an-injured-lion (taken from Carnivora)

So, that leopard sure deserves a lot of credit, even though I admit it's not what happens on a normal day. Now whether or not you think an eland is ~ to a bison or buffalo is irrelevant. The point is that it was only normal for me to use that feat as a predictor of what a cougar is capable of.

This is why every time I see "leopards kill adult, though compromised boars, while cougars don’t prey on any adult boars at all" I almost get a seizure. It's as if that statement is meant to say that leopards are far ahead of cougars in predation feats and hence would stomp them in a fight. Remember that the leopards doing this are one of the largest in the world and that they have no competition, while the largest cougars don't only not coexist with boars, but also have competition which would make wild boars an unwise option even if they were available. For sure, if you replaced the Persian leopards with large male cougars from British Colombia, they would definitely kill adult boars the same way the spotted cats currently do.

Let me get to the point. If you say that just because a leopard killed an eland more than 9 times its size doesn't mean a cougar could kill a bison many times its size (whether it's 9 or not is unimportant), then you've broken the leopard ~ cougar rule. On account of this, don't you think it would be wrong of you to judge "Dogo argentino vs African leopard" based on "Dogo argentino vs Puma".

I'm saying this because the main argument of the dogo supporters on this forum is how dogo argentinos do against pumas. Let's be honest, it's kind of impossible to talk about "Dogo argentino vs African leopard" without talking about or making reference to "Dogo argentino vs Cougar". That's the anchor of any pro dogo argentino debater in this debate. You're going to be like "Dogo argentinos already dominate cougars, why would leopards be any different?" But this would be hypocritical if you already said "leopard kills eland is not = cougar kills bison", because that statement already states that there's possibility for leopard to be "any different". Therefore, I too would be right if I said "dogo argentino beats cougar is not = dogo argentino beats leopard". The point I'm making is that if we agree and wish to continue to agree that leopard ~ cougar, then we must not deviate from that and say "a leopard killed a bull eland (which is a bovine) 9 times its size, doesn't mean a cougar can kill a bison (another bovine) 7 times its size" because that would be BS. As a matter of fact, that’s what it means.

Also, the dogo supporters on the forum (I'm sure we know who they are) say that jaguars beat bull breeds at parity. And this got me wondering "why jaguars, but not cougars and leopards?".

They say that leopards and cougars don’t do well against catch dogs at parity, but that jaguars do and even beat them. This is based on a fight that took place between a champion fighting bulldog named Caporal, and a Jaguar in the 1800s. First, is this a fair comparison? I mean, that's just one fight, that's the only case we have of a jaguar fighting a bulldog.

Second, if their belief was true, then that means that jaguars are >>>>> leopards and cougars at equal weights. That’s what it should translate to. Since jaguars can beat catch dogs at parity, and those catch dogs allegedly ragdoll leopards and cougars at parity, then jaguars should ragdoll cougars and leopards at parity.

But what I find surprising is that there are parts of their range where jaguars and cougars coexist and are of similar size. If jaguars really were >>>>>> cougars at parity, wouldn't this reflect in their interactions with each other? But it doesn’t. Cougars aren’t dominated by jaguars at similar weights and they don't even avoid jaguars. In fact, some researchers believed that cougars actually dominated jaguars in some cases (remember we're still talking about a region where both jaguar and cougar are very similar in size):


"For example, evidence that jaguars are dominant is strongest in areas where jaguars are large and weigh considerably more than pumas, but more ambiguous where the two species are more similar in size".


"Whereas some authors were certain they found evidence that jaguars were dominant over pumas (e.g., Harmsen et al., 2009), other researchers, from areas where jaguars are smaller and sometimes numerically fewer than pumas, suggested the two species may be AT LEAST EQUAL IN COMPETITIVE INTERACTIONS, or even that PUMAS MAY BE DOMINANT OVER JAGUARS".


Source: www.researchgate.net/publication/322685482_Are_pumas_subordinate_carnivores_and_does_it_matter

So, I'm sort of confused, maybe this calls for a reevaluation of our stance on "Dogo argentino vs Cougar and Leopard", maybe they aren’t actually beating cougars and leopards at equal weights, maybe the cats they beat are actually smaller than them or if not, maybe they are compromised or disadvantaged in one way or the other.

Because honestly, I can't think of any explanation for why Jaguar >~ (slightly greater than) bull breeds at parity >>>> leopards and cougars at parity, but yet, jaguar DOES NOT dominate cougar at parity. Clearly there's some explanation that needs to be done there. That's why I'm curious to know what you guys (CoolJohnson lincoln @ling Methane @haileyspino Wyatt ) think, particularly Hardcastle and Bolushi .

Good post, even though it is one I do not subscribe.
I will address your points in this order -
#1 Jaguar & Cougar comparison
#2 Eland formidability
#3 Cougar vs Leopard & Boar Predation
#4 Dogo vs Cougar/Leopard

According to you and your study, jaguars do not dominate cougars in areas where they are similar in size. Now, this may appear to somewhat debunk jaguar > cougar/leopard at parity, however when it comes to dominance between species a lot of it has to do with aggression and similarly sized predators preferring to avoid each other. On top of that, and this is the most important thing I've been careful to remember all day yesterday and today, a cougar the same weight as a jaguar appears visually larger and thus can be more intimidating, scaring the jaguar away without any sort of physical contest or threat displays. A jaguar is considerably more robust than a cougar, so it can fit more weight into a smaller body. This doesn't make the cougar > or = to the jaguar at parity, it just means it's able to scare off the jaguar as it is technically "larger" than the jaguar.
Plus, cougars avoid conflict with jaguars by having different activity patterns.
www.researchgate.net/publication/233513963_Cougar_and_jaguar_habitat_use_and_activity_patterns_in_Central_Mexico
This is in Central Mexico, an area where these 2 animals are capable of getting close in size. And it states:
''Jaguar activity was recorded mainly during nighttimes, between 0:00 and 6:00, whereas cougar was active between 4:00 and 6:00 and between 18:00 and 22:00 hours, avoiding the jaguar's principal activity period.''
When was the last time we've observed a jaguar go "STAND BACK! I WILL DETONATE NUKES AND ATOMIC BOMBS! LOOK AT HOW TOUGH ME IS!!!" and run as fast as its legs can carry it like cougars routinely end up doing against rival carnivores its size or larger? Jaguars go "uh, this isn't really good for me. I'm gonna leave." or if they get bested by a prey animal they stare at it slinking away like "maybe another day..."

A bull eland, while formidable, is actually a fair amount inferior to a buffalo cow. Whether it be an African buffalo, water buffalo or bison. It is an antelope, with rigid carriage, not a lot of durability and not much of an inclination to fight predators effectively. They are large, and they have horns they are able to use to a degree, so they can fend off most predators but make no mistake, they are a flighty antelope. These horns can occasionally score a serious hit on another animal, on top of this when multiple animals are working together on a horned animal, the horned animal can swing its head anywhere with a high likelihood of hitting something.
The fact this is rare for elands speaks volumes because bovids, suids, equids and camelids get into these fights all the time, regularly come out on top and are inclined to fight with bovids and suids being at the top of the latter.
www.thesun.co.uk/news/1145382/the-hunter-becomes-the-hunted-as-buffalo-kills-lion-in-vicious-fight/


www.wideopenspaces.com/cape-buffalo-gores-lion-epic-life-death-struggle/

ewn.co.za/2014/10/08/king-of-the-jungle-crushed-by-buffalo




www.whiskeyriff.com/2023/02/18/yellowstone-bison-herd-fights-off-bears-wolves-during-bison-funeral/










"Eisenberg & Lockhart (1972) suggested that wild boar were too aggressive and dangerous to become prey of leopards in Sri Lanka, and similar conclusions come from India (Ramakrishnan et al., 1999). The results here indicate that this may apply to all Suidae, with warthog and bushpig killed less frequently by leopards than expected on the basis of their abundance (Table 3). This is probably due to their exceeding the upper limit of the leopard’s preferred weight range, as well as their ability to inflict significant injury, such that juveniles may make up the majority of predation events."

zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7998.2006.00139.x
In this thread a leopard can be seen avoiding adult bushpig:

www.africahunting.com/threads/leopard-vs-bushpig.893/ (a lot of valuable insight about bushpig toughness there)


(Obviously a bushpig, a much smaller animal)



I'm not going to hammer home the point with equids and camelids right now, but if I have to I will in another post. Bovids and suids are just the best. An antelope is doing none of this shit, it's not even fighting. So no, a large male leopard dropping onto a giant antelope from a tree is not comparable to a cougar attacking one of the most formidable animals on Earth and antelope are firmly bottom tier when it comes to difficulty for predators. I agree, an eland is a formidable animal, but compared to bovids, suids, equids and camelids it is nothing. Antelope are not domesticated because they run at top speed from predators, leaving their protectors in the dust and leaving themselves to die.

Leopards killing adult, compromised boars happens even for average leopard species, the larger species just evolved to be actually good at it and take adult healthy specimens. Sure, a record 180-220lb cougar (cougars do not get much larger the farther North you go, that's a BS myth) can kill an adult boar. I sure hope smaller ones can- unfortunately they cannot and will not. There are 1 or 2 occasions where this happened on adults, it is similar to the leopard kill on the huge bull eland, a freak scenario. You've seen the studies noting cougars ONLY prey on tiny piglets despite adult boars -
A. Not being able to run
B. Being full of plump delicious meat for days
Unfortunately for cougars, boars are one of the animal kingdom's most formidable animals. So no adult boars for cougars, sorry cougars. Leopards can do it. They're better at different things, cougars just prey on large animals similar to antelope. Cougar vs African leopard is fair, preying on wild boars is cool and great and gives leopards a slight edge IMO but just that perhaps shows a difference in temperament. Not physical superiority and thus it still remains a contest.

Dogos thrash both, but a leopard might win at parity of 110-120lbs, and I would not fancy a 115lb Dogo's odds against a 130lb leopard while I might against a 130lb cougar. I don't think a cougar will ever have decent odds at weights of 60-110lbs. 115-130lbs is where it becomes arguable, 125-130lbs is where it begins to become a 50/50. Now, detract my cougar estimates by 10 and that's what I think about leopards.

A jaguar should also "ragdoll" a cougar or leopard at parity, but jaguars aren't as good at fighting as gripping dogs, nor acquiring and maintaining control, nor do they have the same anti-cougar/leopard attributes that gripping dogs have.
Cougars are held in low esteem, have a poor response when assailed, and get bested by Dogo Argentino x Spanish greyhound crosses. If you're going to argue the cat was disadvantaged, you need to state how, with evidence. Now "aah me thinks cougar declawed because the dog won" is not evidence. I've never seen a cat fan present evidence that isn't from an animal rights organization. So I'm gonna be excitedly waiting for real evidence about how exactly cougars are disadvantaged.
I don't know much about leopard vs gripping dog besides they're somewhat similar to cougars. I know of a case of 2 Boerboel x APBT brothers killing a 120-140lb (weight estimates fluctuate but the most relevant estimate is 120lbs, evidently large) leopard, Clinton Cilliers had 2 Boerboel x APBT brothers he used as dispatch dogs.
"I used to keep in touch with a bloke from south africa and he had two boerboelXpits he used them as basically dispatch dogs on a game reserve they managed to kill a health male leopard which had been taking stock, the leopard was cornered in a goat shed and the dogs killed him although they needed a fair bit of vets attention afterwards. The cat was weighed at 120lbs and the dogs were roughly 110lbs each. The guy now owns neo mastiffs"
That's the best I have, and then some vague testimony and a video of a Bully Kutta and Bully Kutta x herder cross killing an Indian leopardess that they caught on their own. That's as far as catch dogs go, LGDs have killed leopards and a leopard is on video getting dragged by a Ghaddi Kutta, not to be confused with the Bully Kutta, they're similar to Tibetan Mastiffs & Himalayan Sheep Dogs. Dogging leopards is largely illegal so evidence is scarce and also I don't know what languages leopard hunters use so I can't search stuff up in different languages.

[colein]

"I'm not going to hammer home the point with equids and camelids right now, but if I have to I will in another post. Bovids and suids are just the best. An antelope is doing none of this shit, it's not even fighting. So no, a large male leopard dropping onto a giant antelope from a tree is not comparable to a cougar attacking one of the most formidable animals on Earth and antelope are firmly bottom tier when it comes to difficulty for predators. I agree, an eland is a formidable animal, but compared to bovids, suids, equids and camelids it is nothing. Antelope are not domesticated because they run at top speed from predators, leaving their protectors in the dust and leaving themselves to die.

Leopards killing adult, compromised boars happens even for average leopard species, the larger species just evolved to be actually good at it and take adult healthy specimens. Sure, a record 180-220lb cougar (cougars do not get much larger the farther North you go, that's a BS myth) can kill an adult boar. I sure hope smaller ones can- unfortunately they cannot and will not. There are 1 or 2 occasions where this happened on adults, it is similar to the leopard kill on the huge bull eland, a freak scenario. You've seen the studies noting cougars ONLY prey on tiny piglets despite adult boars -
A. Not being able to run
B. Being full of plump delicious meat for days
Unfortunately for cougars, boars are one of the animal kingdom's most formidable animals. So no adult boars for cougars, sorry cougars. Leopards can do it. They're better at different things, cougars just prey on large animals similar to antelope. Cougar vs African leopard is fair, preying on wild boars is cool and great and gives leopards a slight edge IMO but just that perhaps shows a difference in temperament. Not physical superiority and thus it still remains a contest."


"Sure a record 180-220lb cougar can kill a boar, but the smaller ones cannot"

Hey, blind asshole, did you forget the part where that adult boar that was killed by a Puma was in brazil? And the other was in California? Last i checked Brazilian Pumas are incredibly small, if a Brazilian puma can take an adult boar you really don't need anything over a 100lb Puma that gives enough of a fuck about what it's doing to get the job done. That's the damn truth.

How many fucking times do I have to reiterate to you that both the Florida and Texas studies explicitly state that adult boar predation was "infrequent", do you know what the definition of "infrequent" is? Maybe it's time to learn something, look it the fuck up, thank you.

Pumas in Florida and Texas, by extension of the researcher's vocabulary did, in fact take adult Boar's during the course of their study. Otherwise they would've stated there being an "aversion" but they didn't. Pumas also "avoid" adult Elk now, I guess. Because they frequent more calves. Oh well, think you know a thing right?


Also, puma's killing adult boar's in their southern US range aren't anymore of a "freak" occurence than a smaller leopard sub species doing the same. If you want to compare apples to apples let's move some boar into the rocky Mountains of Colorado and Idaho, and British Columbia and let's see how hard those Boar's get fucked up by the male Pumas in those regions which are as bulky as Jaguars. Pumas can adapt to hunt dangerous prey, they ain't no bitches. They tackle adult Elk, which have a higher mortality rate on them than these overrated boars have on both Leopard's and Tigers combined. Straight up.


"Dogos thrash both, but a leopard might win at parity of 110-120lbs, and I would not fancy a 115lb Dogo's odds against a 130lb leopard while I might against a 130lb cougar. I don't think a cougar will ever have decent odds at weights of 60-110lbs. 115-130lbs is where it becomes arguable, 125-130lbs is where it begins to become a 50/50. Now, detract my cougar estimates by 10 and that's what I think about leopards."

Why? Pumas are more robust in the chest than Leopard's, they have stronger forelimbs, and have a similar sized neck girth, they can hunt the same prey why tf are we still running with the false notion that Leopard's are superior to Pumas in robustity? I thoroughly disproved that shit in "Puma vs Leopard" thread by granting you ninkapoops some damn MEASUREMENTS of male pumas. A dogo argentino isn't going to perform any better against either cat and it will be throughly subdued at parity and killed outright if we are talking mature adult male Leopard/Puma's. Which- as far as I know dogo's have only ever faced a single adult male puma by reliable documentation and the dogo lost that fight-

"Without a doubt"

The book said.

"The people of < > had found a big and fierce male Puma, which had beat tupac without any doubt and I had to take him out of the cage to save his life" (paraphrase)

Male Pumas are a different animal compared to their female counterparts, similar to Leopards. A territorial male Puma is going to be too much for any dog, I don't care what weight class 80-115 or whatever the fuck, the Puma is winning that.

The Leopard might have more trouble though, with its smaller forelimbs it might have to work a little harder to keep the dog down, but ultimately the result is the same.

You shouldn't need anymore "proof" than the fact that those baiting dogs fail to be chopped up like they've been through a meat grinder face first. You actually posted a video of a Puma in some sort of trap demonstrating what a Puma with claws and teeth actually looks like...

Poor dog. Didn't look pretty. Bet that was very different from the declawed and defanged specimens he was used to fighting beforehand. Lol

[colein]

Mar 9, 2023 0:56:48 GMT Bolushi said:

Mar 7, 2023 16:00:36 GMT PumAcinonyx SuperCat said:

Hey guys, how's everyone doing? Ok, so I'm not really back, but I just thought about keeping this thread active. This thread crossed my mind while I was thinking about my "Cougar vs Bison" post. Now, just ignore that last part of cougar and bison. I'm beside myself every time I talk about that, just ignore me. That will be so until I release my second post on the subject.

And what I was thinking about was how often we all talk about cougar and leopard as if they were interchangeable. One thing I’m sure anyone who has been in the animal debate community for at least a decent amount of time without being inordinately affectionate or unnecessarily hostile towards either of these cats would agree on is that they are pretty much neck and neck. Most reasonable debaters will tell you that it's hard to categorically say who is stronger between leopard and cougar. And I'm in line with that. In fact for me, this is the closest fight between 2 big cats, even closer than lion and tiger because the percentage difference in size between the 2 is actually less than that between lion and tiger. But even though it gets recognition and is the source of contentions on debating platforms, it isn’t as heavily talked about as "lion vs tiger", more because the 2 cats aren't as popular as their larger cousins and also because lions and tigers are the 2 strongest cats, so a fight between them would be more "powery" than that between cougar and leopard, even though the latter is arguably a closer fight.

The implications of cougar being very similar to leopard is that one can be used to a quite high degree as a predictor of how the other would perform in a given situation. That is to say, we can use one to: predict the possible predation feats of the other, judge how the other would perform in a similar situation, judge how the other would perform in a fight against a third party animal and the likes. I say "to a quite high degree" because there are still differences between the 2 that can cause one to have a different outcome from the other. They have different temperaments, different personalities, etc all which although not the main stuff, are still subtle in the scheme of things.

So yes, I made mention of how a leopard killed a 900 kg eland in my "Cougar vs Bison" post in defence of my view on the topic. My rationale was that a leopard being able to pull off a predation feat where the predator to prey weight ratio was 1 : 9 was somewhat indicative of a cougar being able to do the same, though on a different target: the American Bison.

I received a line in my comment section that an eland is not comparable to both a bison and a buffalo, and that a buffalo cow although smaller than a bull eland can defend itself much better than one. Now, this is a really shaky statement, one which doesn't seem to be based on anything solid, like for what reason exactly do you think a bull eland is an easier challenge than a buffalo cow (emphasis on "cow")?

As a matter of fact, I don’t think a bull eland is necessarily inferior to either a buffalo or a bison bull, at least in their ability to defend against predators. This is a case where an eland seriously wounded one MALE lion during an attack of a LION PRIDE on it: www.sheldrickwildlifetrust.org/news/updates/the-mara-vet-unit-rescues-an-injured-lion (taken from Carnivora)

So, that leopard sure deserves a lot of credit, even though I admit it's not what happens on a normal day. Now whether or not you think an eland is ~ to a bison or buffalo is irrelevant. The point is that it was only normal for me to use that feat as a predictor of what a cougar is capable of.

This is why every time I see "leopards kill adult, though compromised boars, while cougars don’t prey on any adult boars at all" I almost get a seizure. It's as if that statement is meant to say that leopards are far ahead of cougars in predation feats and hence would stomp them in a fight. Remember that the leopards doing this are one of the largest in the world and that they have no competition, while the largest cougars don't only not coexist with boars, but also have competition which would make wild boars an unwise option even if they were available. For sure, if you replaced the Persian leopards with large male cougars from British Colombia, they would definitely kill adult boars the same way the spotted cats currently do.

Let me get to the point. If you say that just because a leopard killed an eland more than 9 times its size doesn't mean a cougar could kill a bison many times its size (whether it's 9 or not is unimportant), then you've broken the leopard ~ cougar rule. On account of this, don't you think it would be wrong of you to judge "Dogo argentino vs African leopard" based on "Dogo argentino vs Puma".

I'm saying this because the main argument of the dogo supporters on this forum is how dogo argentinos do against pumas. Let's be honest, it's kind of impossible to talk about "Dogo argentino vs African leopard" without talking about or making reference to "Dogo argentino vs Cougar". That's the anchor of any pro dogo argentino debater in this debate. You're going to be like "Dogo argentinos already dominate cougars, why would leopards be any different?" But this would be hypocritical if you already said "leopard kills eland is not = cougar kills bison", because that statement already states that there's possibility for leopard to be "any different". Therefore, I too would be right if I said "dogo argentino beats cougar is not = dogo argentino beats leopard". The point I'm making is that if we agree and wish to continue to agree that leopard ~ cougar, then we must not deviate from that and say "a leopard killed a bull eland (which is a bovine) 9 times its size, doesn't mean a cougar can kill a bison (another bovine) 7 times its size" because that would be BS. As a matter of fact, that’s what it means.

Also, the dogo supporters on the forum (I'm sure we know who they are) say that jaguars beat bull breeds at parity. And this got me wondering "why jaguars, but not cougars and leopards?".

They say that leopards and cougars don’t do well against catch dogs at parity, but that jaguars do and even beat them. This is based on a fight that took place between a champion fighting bulldog named Caporal, and a Jaguar in the 1800s. First, is this a fair comparison? I mean, that's just one fight, that's the only case we have of a jaguar fighting a bulldog.

Second, if their belief was true, then that means that jaguars are >>>>> leopards and cougars at equal weights. That’s what it should translate to. Since jaguars can beat catch dogs at parity, and those catch dogs allegedly ragdoll leopards and cougars at parity, then jaguars should ragdoll cougars and leopards at parity.

But what I find surprising is that there are parts of their range where jaguars and cougars coexist and are of similar size. If jaguars really were >>>>>> cougars at parity, wouldn't this reflect in their interactions with each other? But it doesn’t. Cougars aren’t dominated by jaguars at similar weights and they don't even avoid jaguars. In fact, some researchers believed that cougars actually dominated jaguars in some cases (remember we're still talking about a region where both jaguar and cougar are very similar in size):


"For example, evidence that jaguars are dominant is strongest in areas where jaguars are large and weigh considerably more than pumas, but more ambiguous where the two species are more similar in size".


"Whereas some authors were certain they found evidence that jaguars were dominant over pumas (e.g., Harmsen et al., 2009), other researchers, from areas where jaguars are smaller and sometimes numerically fewer than pumas, suggested the two species may be AT LEAST EQUAL IN COMPETITIVE INTERACTIONS, or even that PUMAS MAY BE DOMINANT OVER JAGUARS".


Source: www.researchgate.net/publication/322685482_Are_pumas_subordinate_carnivores_and_does_it_matter

So, I'm sort of confused, maybe this calls for a reevaluation of our stance on "Dogo argentino vs Cougar and Leopard", maybe they aren’t actually beating cougars and leopards at equal weights, maybe the cats they beat are actually smaller than them or if not, maybe they are compromised or disadvantaged in one way or the other.

Because honestly, I can't think of any explanation for why Jaguar >~ (slightly greater than) bull breeds at parity >>>> leopards and cougars at parity, but yet, jaguar DOES NOT dominate cougar at parity. Clearly there's some explanation that needs to be done there. That's why I'm curious to know what you guys (CoolJohnson lincoln @ling Methane @haileyspino Wyatt ) think, particularly Hardcastle and Bolushi .

Good post, even though it is one I do not subscribe.
I will address your points in this order -
#1 Jaguar & Cougar comparison
#2 Eland formidability
#3 Cougar vs Leopard & Boar Predation
#4 Dogo vs Cougar/Leopard

According to you and your study, jaguars do not dominate cougars in areas where they are similar in size. Now, this may appear to somewhat debunk jaguar > cougar/leopard at parity, however when it comes to dominance between species a lot of it has to do with aggression and similarly sized predators preferring to avoid each other. On top of that, and this is the most important thing I've been careful to remember all day yesterday and today, a cougar the same weight as a jaguar appears visually larger and thus can be more intimidating, scaring the jaguar away without any sort of physical contest or threat displays. A jaguar is considerably more robust than a cougar, so it can fit more weight into a smaller body. This doesn't make the cougar > or = to the jaguar at parity, it just means it's able to scare off the jaguar as it is technically "larger" than the jaguar.
Plus, cougars avoid conflict with jaguars by having different activity patterns.
www.researchgate.net/publication/233513963_Cougar_and_jaguar_habitat_use_and_activity_patterns_in_Central_Mexico
This is in Central Mexico, an area where these 2 animals are capable of getting close in size. And it states:
''Jaguar activity was recorded mainly during nighttimes, between 0:00 and 6:00, whereas cougar was active between 4:00 and 6:00 and between 18:00 and 22:00 hours, avoiding the jaguar's principal activity period.''
When was the last time we've observed a jaguar go "STAND BACK! I WILL DETONATE NUKES AND ATOMIC BOMBS! LOOK AT HOW TOUGH ME IS!!!" and run as fast as its legs can carry it like cougars routinely end up doing against rival carnivores its size or larger? Jaguars go "uh, this isn't really good for me. I'm gonna leave." or if they get bested by a prey animal they stare at it slinking away like "maybe another day..."

A bull eland, while formidable, is actually a fair amount inferior to a buffalo cow. Whether it be an African buffalo, water buffalo or bison. It is an antelope, with rigid carriage, not a lot of durability and not much of an inclination to fight predators effectively. They are large, and they have horns they are able to use to a degree, so they can fend off most predators but make no mistake, they are a flighty antelope. These horns can occasionally score a serious hit on another animal, on top of this when multiple animals are working together on a horned animal, the horned animal can swing its head anywhere with a high likelihood of hitting something.
The fact this is rare for elands speaks volumes because bovids, suids, equids and camelids get into these fights all the time, regularly come out on top and are inclined to fight with bovids and suids being at the top of the latter.
www.thesun.co.uk/news/1145382/the-hunter-becomes-the-hunted-as-buffalo-kills-lion-in-vicious-fight/


www.wideopenspaces.com/cape-buffalo-gores-lion-epic-life-death-struggle/

ewn.co.za/2014/10/08/king-of-the-jungle-crushed-by-buffalo




www.whiskeyriff.com/2023/02/18/yellowstone-bison-herd-fights-off-bears-wolves-during-bison-funeral/










"Eisenberg & Lockhart (1972) suggested that wild boar were too aggressive and dangerous to become prey of leopards in Sri Lanka, and similar conclusions come from India (Ramakrishnan et al., 1999). The results here indicate that this may apply to all Suidae, with warthog and bushpig killed less frequently by leopards than expected on the basis of their abundance (Table 3). This is probably due to their exceeding the upper limit of the leopard’s preferred weight range, as well as their ability to inflict significant injury, such that juveniles may make up the majority of predation events."

zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7998.2006.00139.x
In this thread a leopard can be seen avoiding adult bushpig:

www.africahunting.com/threads/leopard-vs-bushpig.893/ (a lot of valuable insight about bushpig toughness there)


(Obviously a bushpig, a much smaller animal)



I'm not going to hammer home the point with equids and camelids right now, but if I have to I will in another post. Bovids and suids are just the best. An antelope is doing none of this shit, it's not even fighting. So no, a large male leopard dropping onto a giant antelope from a tree is not comparable to a cougar attacking one of the most formidable animals on Earth and antelope are firmly bottom tier when it comes to difficulty for predators. I agree, an eland is a formidable animal, but compared to bovids, suids, equids and camelids it is nothing. Antelope are not domesticated because they run at top speed from predators, leaving their protectors in the dust and leaving themselves to die.

Leopards killing adult, compromised boars happens even for average leopard species, the larger species just evolved to be actually good at it and take adult healthy specimens. Sure, a record 180-220lb cougar (cougars do not get much larger the farther North you go, that's a BS myth) can kill an adult boar. I sure hope smaller ones can- unfortunately they cannot and will not. There are 1 or 2 occasions where this happened on adults, it is similar to the leopard kill on the huge bull eland, a freak scenario. You've seen the studies noting cougars ONLY prey on tiny piglets despite adult boars -
A. Not being able to run
B. Being full of plump delicious meat for days
Unfortunately for cougars, boars are one of the animal kingdom's most formidable animals. So no adult boars for cougars, sorry cougars. Leopards can do it. They're better at different things, cougars just prey on large animals similar to antelope. Cougar vs African leopard is fair, preying on wild boars is cool and great and gives leopards a slight edge IMO but just that perhaps shows a difference in temperament. Not physical superiority and thus it still remains a contest.

Dogos thrash both, but a leopard might win at parity of 110-120lbs, and I would not fancy a 115lb Dogo's odds against a 130lb leopard while I might against a 130lb cougar. I don't think a cougar will ever have decent odds at weights of 60-110lbs. 115-130lbs is where it becomes arguable, 125-130lbs is where it begins to become a 50/50. Now, detract my cougar estimates by 10 and that's what I think about leopards.

A jaguar should also "ragdoll" a cougar or leopard at parity, but jaguars aren't as good at fighting as gripping dogs, nor acquiring and maintaining control, nor do they have the same anti-cougar/leopard attributes that gripping dogs have.
Cougars are held in low esteem, have a poor response when assailed, and get bested by Dogo Argentino x Spanish greyhound crosses. If you're going to argue the cat was disadvantaged, you need to state how, with evidence. Now "aah me thinks cougar declawed because the dog won" is not evidence. I've never seen a cat fan present evidence that isn't from an animal rights organization. So I'm gonna be excitedly waiting for real evidence about how exactly cougars are disadvantaged.
I don't know much about leopard vs gripping dog besides they're somewhat similar to cougars. I know of a case of 2 Boerboel x APBT brothers killing a 120-140lb (weight estimates fluctuate but the most relevant estimate is 120lbs, evidently large) leopard, Clinton Cilliers had 2 Boerboel x APBT brothers he used as dispatch dogs.
"I used to keep in touch with a bloke from south africa and he had two boerboelXpits he used them as basically dispatch dogs on a game reserve they managed to kill a health male leopard which had been taking stock, the leopard was cornered in a goat shed and the dogs killed him although they needed a fair bit of vets attention afterwards. The cat was weighed at 120lbs and the dogs were roughly 110lbs each. The guy now owns neo mastiffs"
That's the best I have, and then some vague testimony and a video of a Bully Kutta and Bully Kutta x herder cross killing an Indian leopardess that they caught on their own. That's as far as catch dogs go, LGDs have killed leopards and a leopard is on video getting dragged by a Ghaddi Kutta, not to be confused with the Bully Kutta, they're similar to Tibetan Mastiffs & Himalayan Sheep Dogs. Dogging leopards is largely illegal so evidence is scarce and also I don't know what languages leopard hunters use so I can't search stuff up in different languages.

Reply

[Bolushi]

I've talked to a lot of people over the past 4 years and god damnit Colein you're in the top #5 who were so so so dumb I can't even bother talking to you. Who are you on Quora anyway?
At least Supercat can make coherent posts, like their post was good, but you... you aren't even aware of what a dog is or what anything is including your star animals. You are starting from such a low point. Supercat doesn't know much about canids, but they are far smarter and more open to logic and reason than you. You are on "Masood Rahimi" levels of insanity and I spent around 12 hours total arguing with him. And I've learned that while all spectators clearly see a Bolushi victory, the actual person I'm talking to still doesn't know shit and won't listen etc. etc., and there's no audience here. If we were on a stage, in a crowd of 1000 people, I would totally go on demon mode and spend an entire day ragdolling the shit out of you. But no, there's no point, it's an exercise in futility. Fuck you.

[CoolJohnson]

Mar 7, 2023 16:00:36 GMT PumAcinonyx SuperCat said:

Hey guys, how's everyone doing? Ok, so I'm not really back, but I just thought about keeping this thread active. This thread crossed my mind while I was thinking about my "Cougar vs Bison" post. Now, just ignore that last part of cougar and bison. I'm beside myself every time I talk about that, just ignore me. That will be so until I release my second post on the subject.

And what I was thinking about was how often we all talk about cougar and leopard as if they were interchangeable. One thing I’m sure anyone who has been in the animal debate community for at least a decent amount of time without being inordinately affectionate or unnecessarily hostile towards either of these cats would agree on is that they are pretty much neck and neck. Most reasonable debaters will tell you that it's hard to categorically say who is stronger between leopard and cougar. And I'm in line with that. In fact for me, this is the closest fight between 2 big cats, even closer than lion and tiger because the percentage difference in size between the 2 is actually less than that between lion and tiger. But even though it gets recognition and is the source of contentions on debating platforms, it isn’t as heavily talked about as "lion vs tiger", more because the 2 cats aren't as popular as their larger cousins and also because lions and tigers are the 2 strongest cats, so a fight between them would be more "powery" than that between cougar and leopard, even though the latter is arguably a closer fight.

The implications of cougar being very similar to leopard is that one can be used to a quite high degree as a predictor of how the other would perform in a given situation. That is to say, we can use one to: predict the possible predation feats of the other, judge how the other would perform in a similar situation, judge how the other would perform in a fight against a third party animal and the likes. I say "to a quite high degree" because there are still differences between the 2 that can cause one to have a different outcome from the other. They have different temperaments, different personalities, etc all which although not the main stuff, are still subtle in the scheme of things.

So yes, I made mention of how a leopard killed a 900 kg eland in my "Cougar vs Bison" post in defence of my view on the topic. My rationale was that a leopard being able to pull off a predation feat where the predator to prey weight ratio was 1 : 9 was somewhat indicative of a cougar being able to do the same, though on a different target: the American Bison.

I received a line in my comment section that an eland is not comparable to both a bison and a buffalo, and that a buffalo cow although smaller than a bull eland can defend itself much better than one. Now, this is a really shaky statement, one which doesn't seem to be based on anything solid, like for what reason exactly do you think a bull eland is an easier challenge than a buffalo cow (emphasis on "cow")?

As a matter of fact, I don’t think a bull eland is necessarily inferior to either a buffalo or a bison bull, at least in their ability to defend against predators. This is a case where an eland seriously wounded one MALE lion during an attack of a LION PRIDE on it: www.sheldrickwildlifetrust.org/news/updates/the-mara-vet-unit-rescues-an-injured-lion (taken from Carnivora)

So, that leopard sure deserves a lot of credit, even though I admit it's not what happens on a normal day. Now whether or not you think an eland is ~ to a bison or buffalo is irrelevant. The point is that it was only normal for me to use that feat as a predictor of what a cougar is capable of.

This is why every time I see "leopards kill adult, though compromised boars, while cougars don’t prey on any adult boars at all" I almost get a seizure. It's as if that statement is meant to say that leopards are far ahead of cougars in predation feats and hence would stomp them in a fight. Remember that the leopards doing this are one of the largest in the world and that they have no competition, while the largest cougars don't only not coexist with boars, but also have competition which would make wild boars an unwise option even if they were available. For sure, if you replaced the Persian leopards with large male cougars from British Colombia, they would definitely kill adult boars the same way the spotted cats currently do.

Let me get to the point. If you say that just because a leopard killed an eland more than 9 times its size doesn't mean a cougar could kill a bison many times its size (whether it's 9 or not is unimportant), then you've broken the leopard ~ cougar rule. On account of this, don't you think it would be wrong of you to judge "Dogo argentino vs African leopard" based on "Dogo argentino vs Puma".

I'm saying this because the main argument of the dogo supporters on this forum is how dogo argentinos do against pumas. Let's be honest, it's kind of impossible to talk about "Dogo argentino vs African leopard" without talking about or making reference to "Dogo argentino vs Cougar". That's the anchor of any pro dogo argentino debater in this debate. You're going to be like "Dogo argentinos already dominate cougars, why would leopards be any different?" But this would be hypocritical if you already said "leopard kills eland is not = cougar kills bison", because that statement already states that there's possibility for leopard to be "any different". Therefore, I too would be right if I said "dogo argentino beats cougar is not = dogo argentino beats leopard". The point I'm making is that if we agree and wish to continue to agree that leopard ~ cougar, then we must not deviate from that and say "a leopard killed a bull eland (which is a bovine) 9 times its size, doesn't mean a cougar can kill a bison (another bovine) 7 times its size" because that would be BS. As a matter of fact, that’s what it means.

Also, the dogo supporters on the forum (I'm sure we know who they are) say that jaguars beat bull breeds at parity. And this got me wondering "why jaguars, but not cougars and leopards?".

They say that leopards and cougars don’t do well against catch dogs at parity, but that jaguars do and even beat them. This is based on a fight that took place between a champion fighting bulldog named Caporal, and a Jaguar in the 1800s. First, is this a fair comparison? I mean, that's just one fight, that's the only case we have of a jaguar fighting a bulldog.

Second, if their belief was true, then that means that jaguars are >>>>> leopards and cougars at equal weights. That’s what it should translate to. Since jaguars can beat catch dogs at parity, and those catch dogs allegedly ragdoll leopards and cougars at parity, then jaguars should ragdoll cougars and leopards at parity.

But what I find surprising is that there are parts of their range where jaguars and cougars coexist and are of similar size. If jaguars really were >>>>>> cougars at parity, wouldn't this reflect in their interactions with each other? But it doesn’t. Cougars aren’t dominated by jaguars at similar weights and they don't even avoid jaguars. In fact, some researchers believed that cougars actually dominated jaguars in some cases (remember we're still talking about a region where both jaguar and cougar are very similar in size):


"For example, evidence that jaguars are dominant is strongest in areas where jaguars are large and weigh considerably more than pumas, but more ambiguous where the two species are more similar in size".


"Whereas some authors were certain they found evidence that jaguars were dominant over pumas (e.g., Harmsen et al., 2009), other researchers, from areas where jaguars are smaller and sometimes numerically fewer than pumas, suggested the two species may be AT LEAST EQUAL IN COMPETITIVE INTERACTIONS, or even that PUMAS MAY BE DOMINANT OVER JAGUARS".


Source: www.researchgate.net/publication/322685482_Are_pumas_subordinate_carnivores_and_does_it_matter

So, I'm sort of confused, maybe this calls for a reevaluation of our stance on "Dogo argentino vs Cougar and Leopard", maybe they aren’t actually beating cougars and leopards at equal weights, maybe the cats they beat are actually smaller than them or if not, maybe they are compromised or disadvantaged in one way or the other.

Because honestly, I can't think of any explanation for why Jaguar >~ (slightly greater than) bull breeds at parity >>>> leopards and cougars at parity, but yet, jaguar DOES NOT dominate cougar at parity. Clearly there's some explanation that needs to be done there. That's why I'm curious to know what you guys (CoolJohnson lincoln @ling Methane @haileyspino Wyatt ) think, particularly Hardcastle and Bolushi .

Adult bovines are much harder to take down than adult antelope or deer.

I would usually favor big cats over dogs at parity.

[colein]

Mar 9, 2023 2:48:16 GMT Bolushi said:

I've talked to a lot of people over the past 4 years and god damnit Colein you're in the top #5 who were so so so dumb I can't even bother talking to you. Who are you on Quora anyway?
At least Supercat can make coherent posts, like their post was good, but you... you aren't even aware of what a dog is or what anything is including your star animals. You are starting from such a low point. Supercat doesn't know much about canids, but they are far smarter and more open to logic and reason than you. You are on "Masood Rahimi" levels of insanity and I spent around 12 hours total arguing with him. And I've learned that while all spectators clearly see a Bolushi victory, the actual person I'm talking to still doesn't know shit and won't listen etc. etc., and there's no audience here. If we were on a stage, in a crowd of 1000 people, I would totally go on demon mode and spend an entire day ragdolling the shit out of you. But no, there's no point, it's an exercise in futility. Fuck you.

You were wrong so I corrected you. Guess you don't handle being corrected very well.

You said a Puma under 180lbs can't kill an adult hog...

Ehh Wrong.

You said a Leopard has a better chance at beating a dog at parity than a Puma...

Ehh wrong.

If writing long winded posts full of errors is considered being "right" than I guess you're the correct one lol.

I only addressed the points you flopped on, that's all. I know what a dog is, and more importantly WHAT dog we're talking about. I'm also aware of what a male Puma looks like and has the capability to do to any dog.

In front of 1000 people? That's mean.

[PumAcinonyx SuperCat]

Mar 9, 2023 0:56:48 GMT Bolushi said:

Mar 7, 2023 16:00:36 GMT PumAcinonyx SuperCat said:

Hey guys, how's everyone doing? Ok, so I'm not really back, but I just thought about keeping this thread active. This thread crossed my mind while I was thinking about my "Cougar vs Bison" post. Now, just ignore that last part of cougar and bison. I'm beside myself every time I talk about that, just ignore me. That will be so until I release my second post on the subject.

And what I was thinking about was how often we all talk about cougar and leopard as if they were interchangeable. One thing I’m sure anyone who has been in the animal debate community for at least a decent amount of time without being inordinately affectionate or unnecessarily hostile towards either of these cats would agree on is that they are pretty much neck and neck. Most reasonable debaters will tell you that it's hard to categorically say who is stronger between leopard and cougar. And I'm in line with that. In fact for me, this is the closest fight between 2 big cats, even closer than lion and tiger because the percentage difference in size between the 2 is actually less than that between lion and tiger. But even though it gets recognition and is the source of contentions on debating platforms, it isn’t as heavily talked about as "lion vs tiger", more because the 2 cats aren't as popular as their larger cousins and also because lions and tigers are the 2 strongest cats, so a fight between them would be more "powery" than that between cougar and leopard, even though the latter is arguably a closer fight.

The implications of cougar being very similar to leopard is that one can be used to a quite high degree as a predictor of how the other would perform in a given situation. That is to say, we can use one to: predict the possible predation feats of the other, judge how the other would perform in a similar situation, judge how the other would perform in a fight against a third party animal and the likes. I say "to a quite high degree" because there are still differences between the 2 that can cause one to have a different outcome from the other. They have different temperaments, different personalities, etc all which although not the main stuff, are still subtle in the scheme of things.

So yes, I made mention of how a leopard killed a 900 kg eland in my "Cougar vs Bison" post in defence of my view on the topic. My rationale was that a leopard being able to pull off a predation feat where the predator to prey weight ratio was 1 : 9 was somewhat indicative of a cougar being able to do the same, though on a different target: the American Bison.

I received a line in my comment section that an eland is not comparable to both a bison and a buffalo, and that a buffalo cow although smaller than a bull eland can defend itself much better than one. Now, this is a really shaky statement, one which doesn't seem to be based on anything solid, like for what reason exactly do you think a bull eland is an easier challenge than a buffalo cow (emphasis on "cow")?

As a matter of fact, I don’t think a bull eland is necessarily inferior to either a buffalo or a bison bull, at least in their ability to defend against predators. This is a case where an eland seriously wounded one MALE lion during an attack of a LION PRIDE on it: www.sheldrickwildlifetrust.org/news/updates/the-mara-vet-unit-rescues-an-injured-lion (taken from Carnivora)

So, that leopard sure deserves a lot of credit, even though I admit it's not what happens on a normal day. Now whether or not you think an eland is ~ to a bison or buffalo is irrelevant. The point is that it was only normal for me to use that feat as a predictor of what a cougar is capable of.

This is why every time I see "leopards kill adult, though compromised boars, while cougars don’t prey on any adult boars at all" I almost get a seizure. It's as if that statement is meant to say that leopards are far ahead of cougars in predation feats and hence would stomp them in a fight. Remember that the leopards doing this are one of the largest in the world and that they have no competition, while the largest cougars don't only not coexist with boars, but also have competition which would make wild boars an unwise option even if they were available. For sure, if you replaced the Persian leopards with large male cougars from British Colombia, they would definitely kill adult boars the same way the spotted cats currently do.

Let me get to the point. If you say that just because a leopard killed an eland more than 9 times its size doesn't mean a cougar could kill a bison many times its size (whether it's 9 or not is unimportant), then you've broken the leopard ~ cougar rule. On account of this, don't you think it would be wrong of you to judge "Dogo argentino vs African leopard" based on "Dogo argentino vs Puma".

I'm saying this because the main argument of the dogo supporters on this forum is how dogo argentinos do against pumas. Let's be honest, it's kind of impossible to talk about "Dogo argentino vs African leopard" without talking about or making reference to "Dogo argentino vs Cougar". That's the anchor of any pro dogo argentino debater in this debate. You're going to be like "Dogo argentinos already dominate cougars, why would leopards be any different?" But this would be hypocritical if you already said "leopard kills eland is not = cougar kills bison", because that statement already states that there's possibility for leopard to be "any different". Therefore, I too would be right if I said "dogo argentino beats cougar is not = dogo argentino beats leopard". The point I'm making is that if we agree and wish to continue to agree that leopard ~ cougar, then we must not deviate from that and say "a leopard killed a bull eland (which is a bovine) 9 times its size, doesn't mean a cougar can kill a bison (another bovine) 7 times its size" because that would be BS. As a matter of fact, that’s what it means.

Also, the dogo supporters on the forum (I'm sure we know who they are) say that jaguars beat bull breeds at parity. And this got me wondering "why jaguars, but not cougars and leopards?".

They say that leopards and cougars don’t do well against catch dogs at parity, but that jaguars do and even beat them. This is based on a fight that took place between a champion fighting bulldog named Caporal, and a Jaguar in the 1800s. First, is this a fair comparison? I mean, that's just one fight, that's the only case we have of a jaguar fighting a bulldog.

Second, if their belief was true, then that means that jaguars are >>>>> leopards and cougars at equal weights. That’s what it should translate to. Since jaguars can beat catch dogs at parity, and those catch dogs allegedly ragdoll leopards and cougars at parity, then jaguars should ragdoll cougars and leopards at parity.

But what I find surprising is that there are parts of their range where jaguars and cougars coexist and are of similar size. If jaguars really were >>>>>> cougars at parity, wouldn't this reflect in their interactions with each other? But it doesn’t. Cougars aren’t dominated by jaguars at similar weights and they don't even avoid jaguars. In fact, some researchers believed that cougars actually dominated jaguars in some cases (remember we're still talking about a region where both jaguar and cougar are very similar in size):


"For example, evidence that jaguars are dominant is strongest in areas where jaguars are large and weigh considerably more than pumas, but more ambiguous where the two species are more similar in size".


"Whereas some authors were certain they found evidence that jaguars were dominant over pumas (e.g., Harmsen et al., 2009), other researchers, from areas where jaguars are smaller and sometimes numerically fewer than pumas, suggested the two species may be AT LEAST EQUAL IN COMPETITIVE INTERACTIONS, or even that PUMAS MAY BE DOMINANT OVER JAGUARS".


Source: www.researchgate.net/publication/322685482_Are_pumas_subordinate_carnivores_and_does_it_matter

So, I'm sort of confused, maybe this calls for a reevaluation of our stance on "Dogo argentino vs Cougar and Leopard", maybe they aren’t actually beating cougars and leopards at equal weights, maybe the cats they beat are actually smaller than them or if not, maybe they are compromised or disadvantaged in one way or the other.

Because honestly, I can't think of any explanation for why Jaguar >~ (slightly greater than) bull breeds at parity >>>> leopards and cougars at parity, but yet, jaguar DOES NOT dominate cougar at parity. Clearly there's some explanation that needs to be done there. That's why I'm curious to know what you guys (CoolJohnson lincoln @ling Methane @haileyspino Wyatt ) think, particularly Hardcastle and Bolushi .

Good post, even though it is one I do not subscribe.
I will address your points in this order -
#1 Jaguar & Cougar comparison
#2 Eland formidability
#3 Cougar vs Leopard & Boar Predation
#4 Dogo vs Cougar/Leopard

According to you and your study, jaguars do not dominate cougars in areas where they are similar in size. Now, this may appear to somewhat debunk jaguar > cougar/leopard at parity, however when it comes to dominance between species a lot of it has to do with aggression and similarly sized predators preferring to avoid each other. On top of that, and this is the most important thing I've been careful to remember all day yesterday and today, a cougar the same weight as a jaguar appears visually larger and thus can be more intimidating, scaring the jaguar away without any sort of physical contest or threat displays. A jaguar is considerably more robust than a cougar, so it can fit more weight into a smaller body. This doesn't make the cougar > or = to the jaguar at parity, it just means it's able to scare off the jaguar as it is technically "larger" than the jaguar.
Plus, cougars avoid conflict with jaguars by having different activity patterns.
www.researchgate.net/publication/233513963_Cougar_and_jaguar_habitat_use_and_activity_patterns_in_Central_Mexico
This is in Central Mexico, an area where these 2 animals are capable of getting close in size. And it states:
''Jaguar activity was recorded mainly during nighttimes, between 0:00 and 6:00, whereas cougar was active between 4:00 and 6:00 and between 18:00 and 22:00 hours, avoiding the jaguar's principal activity period.''
When was the last time we've observed a jaguar go "STAND BACK! I WILL DETONATE NUKES AND ATOMIC BOMBS! LOOK AT HOW TOUGH ME IS!!!" and run as fast as its legs can carry it like cougars routinely end up doing against rival carnivores its size or larger? Jaguars go "uh, this isn't really good for me. I'm gonna leave." or if they get bested by a prey animal they stare at it slinking away like "maybe another day..."

A bull eland, while formidable, is actually a fair amount inferior to a buffalo cow. Whether it be an African buffalo, water buffalo or bison. It is an antelope, with rigid carriage, not a lot of durability and not much of an inclination to fight predators effectively. They are large, and they have horns they are able to use to a degree, so they can fend off most predators but make no mistake, they are a flighty antelope. These horns can occasionally score a serious hit on another animal, on top of this when multiple animals are working together on a horned animal, the horned animal can swing its head anywhere with a high likelihood of hitting something.
The fact this is rare for elands speaks volumes because bovids, suids, equids and camelids get into these fights all the time, regularly come out on top and are inclined to fight with bovids and suids being at the top of the latter.
www.thesun.co.uk/news/1145382/the-hunter-becomes-the-hunted-as-buffalo-kills-lion-in-vicious-fight/


www.wideopenspaces.com/cape-buffalo-gores-lion-epic-life-death-struggle/

ewn.co.za/2014/10/08/king-of-the-jungle-crushed-by-buffalo




www.whiskeyriff.com/2023/02/18/yellowstone-bison-herd-fights-off-bears-wolves-during-bison-funeral/










"Eisenberg & Lockhart (1972) suggested that wild boar were too aggressive and dangerous to become prey of leopards in Sri Lanka, and similar conclusions come from India (Ramakrishnan et al., 1999). The results here indicate that this may apply to all Suidae, with warthog and bushpig killed less frequently by leopards than expected on the basis of their abundance (Table 3). This is probably due to their exceeding the upper limit of the leopard’s preferred weight range, as well as their ability to inflict significant injury, such that juveniles may make up the majority of predation events."

zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7998.2006.00139.x
In this thread a leopard can be seen avoiding adult bushpig:

www.africahunting.com/threads/leopard-vs-bushpig.893/ (a lot of valuable insight about bushpig toughness there)


(Obviously a bushpig, a much smaller animal)



I'm not going to hammer home the point with equids and camelids right now, but if I have to I will in another post. Bovids and suids are just the best. An antelope is doing none of this shit, it's not even fighting. So no, a large male leopard dropping onto a giant antelope from a tree is not comparable to a cougar attacking one of the most formidable animals on Earth and antelope are firmly bottom tier when it comes to difficulty for predators. I agree, an eland is a formidable animal, but compared to bovids, suids, equids and camelids it is nothing. Antelope are not domesticated because they run at top speed from predators, leaving their protectors in the dust and leaving themselves to die.

Leopards killing adult, compromised boars happens even for average leopard species, the larger species just evolved to be actually good at it and take adult healthy specimens. Sure, a record 180-220lb cougar (cougars do not get much larger the farther North you go, that's a BS myth) can kill an adult boar. I sure hope smaller ones can- unfortunately they cannot and will not. There are 1 or 2 occasions where this happened on adults, it is similar to the leopard kill on the huge bull eland, a freak scenario. You've seen the studies noting cougars ONLY prey on tiny piglets despite adult boars -
A. Not being able to run
B. Being full of plump delicious meat for days
Unfortunately for cougars, boars are one of the animal kingdom's most formidable animals. So no adult boars for cougars, sorry cougars. Leopards can do it. They're better at different things, cougars just prey on large animals similar to antelope. Cougar vs African leopard is fair, preying on wild boars is cool and great and gives leopards a slight edge IMO but just that perhaps shows a difference in temperament. Not physical superiority and thus it still remains a contest.

Dogos thrash both, but a leopard might win at parity of 110-120lbs, and I would not fancy a 115lb Dogo's odds against a 130lb leopard while I might against a 130lb cougar. I don't think a cougar will ever have decent odds at weights of 60-110lbs. 115-130lbs is where it becomes arguable, 125-130lbs is where it begins to become a 50/50. Now, detract my cougar estimates by 10 and that's what I think about leopards.

A jaguar should also "ragdoll" a cougar or leopard at parity, but jaguars aren't as good at fighting as gripping dogs, nor acquiring and maintaining control, nor do they have the same anti-cougar/leopard attributes that gripping dogs have.
Cougars are held in low esteem, have a poor response when assailed, and get bested by Dogo Argentino x Spanish greyhound crosses. If you're going to argue the cat was disadvantaged, you need to state how, with evidence. Now "aah me thinks cougar declawed because the dog won" is not evidence. I've never seen a cat fan present evidence that isn't from an animal rights organization. So I'm gonna be excitedly waiting for real evidence about how exactly cougars are disadvantaged.
I don't know much about leopard vs gripping dog besides they're somewhat similar to cougars. I know of a case of 2 Boerboel x APBT brothers killing a 120-140lb (weight estimates fluctuate but the most relevant estimate is 120lbs, evidently large) leopard, Clinton Cilliers had 2 Boerboel x APBT brothers he used as dispatch dogs.
"I used to keep in touch with a bloke from south africa and he had two boerboelXpits he used them as basically dispatch dogs on a game reserve they managed to kill a health male leopard which had been taking stock, the leopard was cornered in a goat shed and the dogs killed him although they needed a fair bit of vets attention afterwards. The cat was weighed at 120lbs and the dogs were roughly 110lbs each. The guy now owns neo mastiffs"
That's the best I have, and then some vague testimony and a video of a Bully Kutta and Bully Kutta x herder cross killing an Indian leopardess that they caught on their own. That's as far as catch dogs go, LGDs have killed leopards and a leopard is on video getting dragged by a Ghaddi Kutta, not to be confused with the Bully Kutta, they're similar to Tibetan Mastiffs & Himalayan Sheep Dogs. Dogging leopards is largely illegal so evidence is scarce and also I don't know what languages leopard hunters use so I can't search stuff up in different languages.

Wow! I was beginning to fear that nobody would respond. Thanks for responding. I'm too busy to reply now, I'll reply in a few days time. 

Note: I don't want to quote you again and make the thread unnecessarily longer, so, I'll just edit this one. 




I really loved this forum and don't want it to die 😞😢😔. I know I haven't been the most regular poster, and I apologise for that but I already explained to Hardcastle . I actually just finished the exams last week.



I've wanted to respond to this post for a while now, it just doesn’t feel right to leave it unattended to.



I saw what you said on Discord. I've always liked and respected you, but you just choose to repay evil for good and act mischievous and naughty. Anyway, I forgive you, the past is in the past.



Let me reply in the order that you chose: 




● Jaguar and Cougar comparison 


Regarding the Jaguar and Cougar discussion at parity, I feel like people give Pantherines too much respect when comparing them to the cougar, because Pantherines strike as more formidable, and for the most part, they are (3 out of the 5 Panthera genus cats are stronger than cougars). 



When you say the jaguar was "intimidated" because the cougar looks "bigger", that sounds more like unwillingness rather than inability. Personally, I take the jaguar-cougar interactions as inability of jaguars to dominate cougars, rather than an unwillingness. This is true because we get to another part of their range where jaguar is the undisputed top cat, and that is the Pantanal. 



Here, jaguars are far above cougars, they can literally be twice the weight of the cougar, and there's no question as to who's the stronger cat. This leads me to believe that yes, ultimately "Jaguar > Cougar", like as a general rule, jaguars as a species scale above cougars as a species, but the jaguar needs a size advantage to show its dominance, that is, at equal weights, it is basically the same thing as a puma, except that it’s wearing a spotted coat rather than a plain one. 



Jaguars are a monotypic cat, that is they have no subspecies. This is to say that the jaguars in North America and those in South America are all the same as in "Jaguar". Yes, there's "South American Jaguar" and there's "North American Jaguar", but that's populations, not subspecies since there isn't enough genetic variation for scientists to classify them as subspecies (there were "subspecies" at a point, but after a while, scientists revised jaguar classification and found out that they're all the same). 



The point I’m making is that those in the North are essentially the same as those in the South, except that those in the South get bigger. So, I believe that generally, they'll react to cougars in the same way and the only reason they would not is if the cougar approached them in size. 



Why is it that in the Pantanal, jaguars can lord it over cougars, but they don’t up North? Why is it only when the jaguar is substantially larger that it can exercise dominance? They are the same jaguars, not a separate type of jaguar (so I think we can safely say that there isn't too much variation in temperaments and courage and the likes).

Jaguars aren’t really intimidated by "size", so I don’t think a cougar appearing "larger" would be enough to put it on the run (like in that video, the jaguar didn't run, instead it put the cougar on the run).


They're not intimidated by caimans in their elements, they're not intimidated by anacondas (largest snake), so I think "larger" size in itself is enough to put it on the run. I think the jaguar acknowledges that facing an equal sized cat is dangerous, even if you're the human-proclaimed "pound for pound, strongest cat."



I say that they have a healthy respect for cougars when they're similar in size because they acknowledge that they need a good size advantage to show that "Jaguar > Cougar", but lose that respect when they get the size advantage (in the South).

Besides, at equal weights, cougars don’t look much bigger than jaguars. In fact, you can hardly tell the difference in size. 





● Eland Formidability 


I was honestly still shaky in my eland formidability scale, but I think I have become decided. I don’t think it's on the same level as a bison or buffalo in a fight, but I think that from a predator’s point of view, they are actually similar.

I actually disagree with you saying they are nothing to camelids, equids, and suids, especially camelids and equids. 



Now "suids" is too generic a term. I presume you're talking about the Wild Boar (Sus scrofa) specifically if I'm right because I don't think animals like warthogs, red river hogs and domestic pigs are superior to a giant eland, I don’t think so, and neither should you. That would just be cap. 



Suppose you are talking about the Wild boar, then I might actually still disagree, to be honest. As much as I know that the wild boar is extremely strong and resilient for its size, when we compare the eland and the boar at their maximum sizes, from a size perspective ALONE, the boar looks outmatched.

The biggest wild boar CAUGHT (please notice the word "caught", and not "that ever lived") weighed 350 kg and was captured in Turkey: www.gentside.de/tier/das-grosste-wildschwein-der-welt-das-sus-scrofa-attila-ist-das-monster-der-turkischen-walder_art5129.html


“Weighed more than 350 kg” a little vague, but I think you and I can agree that it most likely isn’t up to 400 kg, otherwise it would just have been reported as “400 kg” or “close to 400 kg.” “Weighed more than 350 kg" to me connotes that it’s hanging around the 350 kg mark, maybe 355 kg or some figure close to 360 kg.



One of the largest elands measured weighed over 4000 pounds which is more than 1818 kg: poststar.com/sports/local/bowhunter-harvests-possible-world-record-eland-in-africa/article_b0065a94-d8d5-5042-89da-e5bfb52ff374.html



It was kind of suspected that it was the largest that was captured, but I don’t think it was ascertained, there might be elands out there that are even larger than that, don’t know. The value actually kind of looks ridiculous, that’s larger than even the largest recorded semi domestic bison! It’s not until I converted it to kg before I realised that that’s REAAAALLY massive.



The eland is more than 5 times bigger than the boar. I don’t yet know what you think, I’m curious to, but that doesn’t look good for the boar. Yes, I know that a 350 kg boar can definitely send even the fittest of Siberian tigers to an early grave if just one wrong move is made, but a 1818 kg eland should smash an entire pride of lions to smithereens. I just don’t see anything the boar could do, let’s be realistic. Hell, an eland of that size would crush most cape buffaloes. I just felt that you were kind of underselling the eland. With wild boars out of the way, I don’t think equids and camelids deserve any explanation.


I also disagree that there are only a few cases of elands killing lions.


• Even the much smaller sable antelope has been stated to have killed lions MANY TIMES: singita.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Singita-Pamushana-Wildlife-Report-June-2014.pdf (Warning: You may experience some difficulty in opening this PDF. But be calm, patience is a virtue)

“When sable are threatened and cannot escape, they confront the predator, including lions, and use their scimitar-shaped horns to fight it. There are several accounts of lions being killed by sable during such fights.” 




• Sable antelope stand their ground against predators, and confront them. This is actually a “FIGHTY” antelope and maybe not so much a “FLIGHTY” one: books.google.com.br/books?id=OhlPAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT352&lpg=PT352&dq=When


“However, when sable antelope are threatened by a predator, INCLUDING LIONS, they will CONFRONT IT, using their scimitar-shaped horns. MANY OF THESE BIG CATS have died during such fights.”




• Lions are actually stated to rarely tackle them, proof of how formidable they are. It’s said that only humans pose a threat to them: animaldiversity.org/accounts/Hippotragus_niger/


“Lions SELDOM attack adults because of their size and the FORMIDABLE FIGHTING ABILITIES of these antelope. Humans are the only real threat to adult sable antelope and their populations.”





If sable antelope can do that, then there would almost certainly if not most certainly be many cases where elands (that are much larger) have killed lions. They probably just don’t get reported as much as cases of buffaloes killing lions. Also, the public isn’t as keen on elands as it is on buffaloes. Lions also probably cross paths with buffaloes more often than they do with elands, so obviously there would be higher chances of being killed by buffaloes. Lions actually get their asses kicked a lot more than what we see on screen.



While one can bring up the fact that the sable antelope has special horns that help it in combat, which might be superior to those of the eland, there’s still a measure of physical strength involved. You can’t take the horns of a sable antelope and put them on an impala, hoping that would make the impala invulnerable to lion predation.

Antelope can actually be pretty formidable against predators. I think people actually underrate them in their ability to fend off predators. When you hear “antelope”, what probably comes to mind is an impala, or a gazelle or kudu. There are certain antelope species that can actually prove challenging for even the higher calibre of predators like lions. 





● Cougar vs Leopard and Boar Predation 


I don't have much to say here. I know that the Persian leopard is a boar specialist and all. I just wanted to add that cougars are actually good at taking on hogs too. Obviously, "Cougar vs Leopard" is the closest big cat fight. I don’t need to dwell on that. 



• Florida Panthers are said to prey on hogs with a very good amount of frequency: archive.org/details/floridapanther00silv




“The Florida panther is a large carnivore that requires SUBSTANTIAL amounts of food. It OFTEN catches prey that is bigger than itself . White-tailed deer and WILD HOGS typically make up 75 percent of the panther’s diet.” (Page 13) 





• Florida panthers love hogs so much that their survival can be threatened by hog scarcity:


“Hunters have also threatened the panther’s survival by killing deer and HOGS, reducing the amount of prey available to the native predators.” (Page 26) 





• Florida panthers control the feral hog population so well that when the panther is absent, the feral hog population blossoms:


“Although panthers tend to be scarce in areas where wild hogs are plentiful, the reason may be that people hunt in these areas and disturb the habitat.” (Page 27) 




Obviously, they can’t be controlling the population if it’s ONLY piglets they’re killing, that’s just not happening. Among all those hogs that cougars kill, a good portion of them would definitely be adults. Some individual cougars might (“would” actually) even be more specialised at taking hogs than others. At this point, I must say that it is a dishonest assessment that cougars NEVER prey on adult boars and ONLY kill piglets. That’s simply not true. 


I understand that “feral hog” and “wild boar” aren’t EXACTLY one and the same, there’s no need to lecture me on the difference. Point is that the 2 are close enough to be used as analogues. Since Florida panthers can and do kill feral hogs, then that experience would definitely be of some use against actual wild (not previously domesticated, or mixed with wild suids) boars. Even though leopards may kill boars more, cougars are definitely not novices in the art. 

Besides, if a 16-month-old tiger can walk up to a boar face-to-face and kill it, then it’s not unreasonable to imagine a full-grown cougar replicating that: web.archive.org/web/20130324195702/http://www.baodatviet.vn/khoa-hoc-cong-nghe/the-gioi-quanh-ta/201303/Chua-son-lam-chien-lon-rung-khoi-bui-mit-mu-2343681/


(Notice that the boar was explicitly stated to be healthy at the beginning. So we know that this wasn't a boar that was compromised).

A 16-month-old tiger is barely fit to have left its mother’s side and it can take down an adult boar. I don't know about you, but I don’t think a 16-month-old tiger is stronger than a male North American puma or even a female tbh.

Also notice how the tiger skillfully stood sideways and turned to screw the boar's head to the ground in order to protect itself from the boar's tusks. I can imagine a puma doing the exact same thing.


Sure, it can be argued that the tiger still used a surprise attack, but it was from the front and a good part of the battle took part with the tiger being right in the boar's front.


At a point, the tiger was literally biting the boar's back from the front (in the tenth picture). The boar also put up a good resistance, trying to knock the tiger off, so I think we can safely say that this was a legitimate fight and not a young tiger creeping up on a sleeping or TOTALLY or heavily disadvantaged oblivious boar.


This interaction was a battle, one in which a cougar could have replaced the tiger and won.





● Dogo vs Cougar/Leopard 


Now this is arguably the most interesting part. You and Hardcastle might actually be right after all about “Dogo argentino vs Cougar or Leopard” at parity. After doing some investigation, I should say that you have some solid arguments.


Even though, I genuinely don’t like the idea of a dog being able to defeat a big cat (a big cat that isn’t a cheetah), to be fair, there actually is evidence that they can.

I did some research and found out that Boerboels can and have killed leopards in Africa.



• One was even stated to have killed 4 leopards back to back in 4 different combats until it met its end in a battle with a fifth leopard, probably due to old age and the battle wounds it had accumulated over the years:  archive.org/details/standardencyclop0004unse


“They are excellent fighters and often have to fight beasts of prey. One Boer mastiff killed, over a period of some years, FOUR leopards in SINGLE COMBAT before himself succumbing in a fifth fight.” (Page 57) 




• Then, there’s also this, that talks about the boerboel’s special ability to combat leopards and why it was chosen over the “mastiff”, “bulldog”, and the “boarhound”. It also says that leopards are a formidable for, but that boerboels can and do kill them. The word “tiger” appears to be used in place of “leopard”, but I think that’s what leopards are called in Afrikaans (don’t know, I just think it’s likely). Obviously, we know it’s leopards that are being referred to because it says “tigers and baboons”, and tigers don’t coexist with baboons. Plus, it was written by “A South African”: journals.co.za/doi/epdf/10.10520/AJA0000018_1086





• Boerboels are used to hunt leopards in Africa, though it’s said that they usually get seriously wounded if they are able to survive. But some do it with little injuries to themselves: heinemanboerboels.wordpress.com/boerboel-history/ 



“Killing leopard – The biggest hunting function of the Boerboel lies in fighting predators. Stories of Boerboels killing leopard in South Africa are VERY COMMON. If the Boerboel survives he seldom does so without serious wounds. Up to this day there are still farmers that hunt leopard with only one Boerboel, and that dog regularly kills the leopard with very little harm done to himself. The type of dog favoured by farmers is the more agile Boerboel.” 


It also contains an account of a FEMALE boerboel killing a MALE lion, but I don’t know about that (the lion isn’t explicitly stated to be a male, but it says “killed him”): 


“An unfortunate Boerboel bitch that ended up in the lions cage, felt that her time had not come yet, and she somehow got hold of the lion’s throat and killed him. It was probably great news at the time and she was used for breeding after that.” 




I think “Boerboel vs Leopard” is comparable to “Dogo argentino vs Cougar”, seeing that they’re both mastiffs, they both can be used to capture cattle and stuff, even though boerboels are mostly used on the farm, and obviously, cougar and leopard are perfect analogues for each other. 



Now, I don’t want to be a biased cat fan and start asking, “what was the health status of those leopards?”, “what was their gender?”, “were the dogs bigger than them?”. If I saw an account or accounts of a leopard killing a boerboel, I honestly wouldn’t ask any of those questions for how the leopard won.


I’d just take it as “yes, the leopard killed the boerboel in a fight”, since that’s what I like anyway. I’m sure you understand. As a dog fan, you also like the idea of a dog being able to kill a big cat, you’re happy when you see a dogo argentino beating a cougar. 



Therefore, I don’t think it would be fair for me to get an electron microscope and be over scrutinising how the dog came about its victory.


So, yeah, you kind of have the victory at last. I should still say that I’m open to the possibility of cougars and leopards being able to win at parity, since I’m the most biased cat fan in existence (oh sorry, I forgot, it’s not me, it’s ApexBoy [who I very much suspect is the same as CoolJohnson ] who said a boerboel needs to be at least 2 to 3 times the size of a snow leopard for it to have a chance). 



I’m kind of reluctantly throwing in the towel. I don’t want to say I am. Just that I will no longer debate you on “Gripping dog vs Big Cat” at parity. I’ll still try to find anything I can about cougars and leopards being able to defeat dogo argentinos even at parity (trust me, I’m searching far and wide). But until I do, I think you have the W. 



Just one thing: How the jaguar defeated Hercules, with cougars being able to dominate jaguars and still not defeating gripping dogs at parity will forever remain a mystery. 

[Hardcastle]

Testing...

[Bolushi]

Will respond this weekend. Have been busy. Good post.
Also the funny thing is that a Boerboel 3x the size of a snow leopard would lose. Fat bloated show dogs with no job ought to stay away from large predators.