Who can post the earliest image of a dog resembling a bull &

[pinky]

I think I can claim earliest schnauzer


Though no doubt representing a deerhound mix, maybe

[Hardcastle]

Jan 18, 2023 7:15:45 GMT pinky said:

I think I can claim earliest schnauzer


Though no doubt representing a deerhound mix, maybe

That always struck me as an odd image, I guess just a bad artist?

I will say it does remind me of the ancient roman "beware of the dog" mosaic


From most indications I'd suggest the dogs conquistadors were using to bite the necks out of natives should have been more like colonial "bloodhounds" aka big mean boarhounds blooded to attack humans. 


Maybe like you say some were just hairy, and the artist is trying to portray that wolfhoundian/deerhoundian scruff and failing. 

Or... maybe they just used whatever, and sometimes they were like boarhounds but maybe other times they might use bouvier des flandres/giant schnauzer types or even german shepherd types. I have seen evidence of greyhound looking dogs, boarhound looking dogs and even bull-terrier looking dogs used as latin american man-tamers. So why stop there? Maybe they could just as readily have dipped their toe in herders and drovers. 

Also- is it a coincidence you came and visited us on the very day you got demoted from moderator to pleb?

I was too, BTW. We are now both common peasant/convict/scouser scum and all is as it should be. 

[pinky]

It’s often like they’re drawing a dog they haven’t seen?
But that in itself can give us clues….


Like this one, you can imagine the artist being told “they just like bulldogs really, but hairier” . You get odd pictures but I can grasp what was perhaps meant.

Then, some conformation issues aside, you get drawings that are incredibly accurate to modern dogs.


Then we have the mysterious clumber looking type. There’s a well known(by us at least) colour drawing we’ve discussed before - this one is clearly showing the same type, it wasn’t just a cackhanded artist in the other.


And yes, merely coincidence. Good to be back amongst the hoi polloi

[Hardcastle]

Where it says -
"In those days apparently they were rough coated"
on that pic...

I'd suggest they were sometimes rough coated, and sometimes smooth. Because they were sometimes made with greyhounds and sometimes made with deerhounds or wolfhounds. I'd say the brits just had a "mongrel pig dog scene" similar to the current aussie one. I'd say "mastiffs" have simply spawned from that sloppy messy pool. To some extent I think wolfhounds did too. Great danes from a similar german one.

The big spaniels are weird. At some point there are just too many in medieval art to ignore. It seems there definitely was a large hunting spaniel that is apparently extinct. You often see them working with alaunt gentils. I suspect britain maybe had big spaniels instead of scenthounds, and then later on when the big spaniels went extinct they decided they wanted hunting hounds again and maybe imported scenthounds from the continent. You don't seem to see foxhounds or bloodhounds in old art from england, just these weird spaniels. I don't think it's bad art because they are oddly consistent across various artists. Then at some point they have foxhound looking dogs that they hunt deer with, and later foxes. I think these came over with german aristocracy or something and actually aren't british. This would also explain why I instinctively find scenthounds so foreign and alien.