St. Bernard vs Cougar

[Deleted]

Retired boarhound that rescues people.

The cougar (Puma concolor) is a large cat native to the Americas. Its range spans from the Canadian Yukon to the southern Andes in South America and is the most widespread of any large wild terrestrial mammal in the Western Hemisphere. It is an adaptable, generalist species, occurring in most American habitat types. This wide range has brought it many common names, including puma, mountain lion, catamount and panther (for the Florida sub-population). It is the second-largest cat in the New World, after the jaguar (Panthera onca). Secretive and largely solitary by nature, the cougar is properly considered both nocturnal and crepuscular, although daytime sightings do occur. Despite its size, the cougar is more closely related to smaller felines, including the domestic cat (Felis catus) than to any species of the subfamily Pantherinae.



The cougar is an ambush predator that pursues a wide variety of prey. Primary food sources are ungulates, particularly deer, but it also hunts smaller prey such as rodents. It prefers habitats with dense underbrush and rocky areas for stalking, but also lives in open areas. Cougars are territorial and live at low population densities. Individual home ranges depend on terrain, vegetation and abundance of prey. While large, it is not always the apex predator in its range, yielding prey it has killed to American black bears, grizzly bears and packs of wolves. It is reclusive and mostly avoids people. Fatal attacks on humans are rare, but increased in North America as more people entered cougar habitat and built farms.

[Deleted]

the dog isn’t bred for fighting but its size should help

Bolushi

thoughts?

[Deleted]

Dec 26, 2022 22:30:52 GMT @ling said:

the dog isn’t bred for fighting but its size should help

Bolushi

thoughts?

The St. Bernard's ancestors were in fact fighting dogs. The St. Bernard could be very well equipped, but it was inflated and ruined and now it rescues people in mountains. It needs to be understood that's not what the St. Bernard is or should be. The St. Bernard is quite big, durable and robust thanks to its ancestors and a 150-180lb St. Bernard that leads a tough, rugged life (most don't) could win against an average 120-130lb cougar. Could, not sure if it would. If it was crossed to sighthound I think it would definitely win, the sighthound blood would likely produce St. Bernards similar to their ancestors. Look at the St. Bernard in blue, all of the blues (and the dark pink inside) are (many former) big game hunting dogs:
research.nhgri.nih.gov/dog_genome/study_descriptions/study-genomics_dog_breeds.shtml

 

[Deleted]

Dec 26, 2022 22:46:01 GMT Bolushi said:

Dec 26, 2022 22:30:52 GMT @ling said:

the dog isn’t bred for fighting but its size should help

Bolushi

thoughts?

The St. Bernard's ancestors were in fact fighting dogs. The St. Bernard could be very well equipped, but it was inflated and ruined and now it rescues people in mountains. It needs to be understood that's not what the St. Bernard is or should be. The St. Bernard is quite big, durable and robust thanks to its ancestors and a 150-180lb St. Bernard that leads a tough, rugged life (most don't) could win against an average 120-130lb cougar. Could, not sure if it would. If it was crossed to sighthound I think it would definitely win, the sighthound blood would likely produce St. Bernards similar to their ancestors. Look at the St. Bernard in blue, all of the blues (and the dark pink inside) are (many former) big game hunting dogs:
research.nhgri.nih.gov/dog_genome/study_descriptions/study-genomics_dog_breeds.shtml

 

Some St. Bernard's have passed 200lbs too

[Deleted]

Dec 26, 2022 22:54:17 GMT @ling said:

Dec 26, 2022 22:46:01 GMT Bolushi said:

The St. Bernard's ancestors were in fact fighting dogs. The St. Bernard could be very well equipped, but it was inflated and ruined and now it rescues people in mountains. It needs to be understood that's not what the St. Bernard is or should be. The St. Bernard is quite big, durable and robust thanks to its ancestors and a 150-180lb St. Bernard that leads a tough, rugged life (most don't) could win against an average 120-130lb cougar. Could, not sure if it would. If it was crossed to sighthound I think it would definitely win, the sighthound blood would likely produce St. Bernards similar to their ancestors. Look at the St. Bernard in blue, all of the blues (and the dark pink inside) are (many former) big game hunting dogs:
research.nhgri.nih.gov/dog_genome/study_descriptions/study-genomics_dog_breeds.shtml

 

Some St. Bernard's have passed 200lbs too

Well yes but those 200lbs+ dogs are absolutely terrible. I'd rather a 120-150lb St. Bernard go against a 120-130lb cougar than a 170lb+ St. Bernard. It'd run out of gas very quickly and just be a punching bag. Which would be fine against a wolf or coyote or lynx or cheetah etc., but a cougar may just say ''no'' and suffocate the dog to death. Not try to outfight it. Something has your neck you have to do something about it and I don't think a 200lb+ St. Bernard could do something about it in due time. I also think a cougar wouldn't bother the dog because it'd be chewing on loose skin but if forced to I'm quite concerned for a giant SB.

[theundertaker45]

Made a quick comparison between the two; cougar at 26.6in (taken from Anderson, 1983: A critical review of literature on puma") and St Bernard at 31.5in (taken from the breed standard by the FCI):

[Deleted]

Jan 26, 2023 15:47:51 GMT theundertaker45 said:

Made a quick comparison between the two; cougar at 26.6in (taken from Anderson, 1983: A critical review of literature on puma") and St Bernard at 31.5in (taken from the breed standard by the FCI):

Who do you favour?

[Hardcastle]

Jan 26, 2023 15:47:51 GMT theundertaker45 said:

Made a quick comparison between the two; cougar at 26.6in (taken from Anderson, 1983: A critical review of literature on puma") and St Bernard at 31.5in (taken from the breed standard by the FCI):

Believe it or not, the ODD St Bernard is a motherfucker. Most aren't, most would lose. The one in that picture? As good as dead.
But that rare "diamond in the rough" throwback?

It's up in the air for me.



There are these diamonds in the rough because if you go back far enough the St Bernard descends from boarhounds. The english mastiff, great dane and alpine mastiff all split off from "european boarhounds". Arguably the bully kutta and fila brasileiro did also.
Those taken up the alps became the alpine mastiff, which immediately stopped hunting boar, started hauling milk carts and guarding and very casually and maybe slowly escorting dairy cattle around, and it got big, really big, but was still pretty gnarly-



In fact, primitive farm bulldogs and boarhounds both went up those mountains, and they did become lesser somewhat lame dogs (the farm bulldogs became the sennenhunds- greater swiss, bernese mountain, appenzeller and entlebucher), combat became irrelevant and they deteriorated combatively. The St Bernard arguably deteriorated the least (combatively), despite it's popularity, and some of that is probably because this popular dog was "reconstructed" with outcrossing to other breeds, including some formidable breeds. English mastiffs and great danes, but also possibly tibetan mastiffs and central asian shepherds.   

Ultimately it seems you end up with a mutt of big nasty breeds, and perhaps it should be unsurprising that some quite randomly retain some ability and in a big powerful package. 

Generally speaking I say puma, BUT I believe the odd individual St Bernard would surprise us and surprise the puma. 

[theundertaker45]

Interesting, the individuals on this car and in the drawing look lean and functional with good muscularity. It seems that modern St Bernards are extremely heavy, but not in a good sense; they look unathletic and clumsy. If they looked like the "Alpine Mastiff" up there, they'd be beautiful and really impressive dogs to watch.

I mean most of these dogs are used for pulling people out of deep snow and such stuff; I doubt a normal St Bernard could use all of this weight in an effective manner. You mentioned that some odd individuals might be useful in terms of fighting, where would you normally find them?

[Deleted]

Hardcastle Bolushi

Is the Newfoundland any better?

[Hardcastle]

Jan 26, 2023 18:29:59 GMT theundertaker45 said:

Interesting, the individuals on this car and in the drawing look lean and functional with good muscularity. It seems that modern St Bernards are extremely heavy, but not in a good sense; they look unathletic and clumsy. If they looked like the "Alpine Mastiff" up there, they'd be beautiful and really impressive dogs to watch.

I mean most of these dogs are used for pulling people out of deep snow and such stuff; I doubt a normal St Bernard could use all of this weight in an effective manner. You mentioned that some odd individuals might be useful in terms of fighting, where would you normally find them?

You couldn't find them. No one is breeding them that way, it's just a case of random throw-backs popping out here and there. I've encountered some in person too. Most St Bernards are BS, but every now and then you're like "jesus where did that come from?" and you get a physically functional and temperamentally serious St Bernard. Don't count on it though, it's just a quirk of the system. They used to be legit, before they were st bernards, they've been ruined, but that ruination just means there's a mess of random crapper dogs being produced. Among them like needles in a haystack you still have throwbacks, at least to some extent. I have encountered some with St Bernards and they were pretty badass.

[Hardcastle]

Jan 26, 2023 18:38:42 GMT @ling said:

Hardcastle Bolushi

Is the Newfoundland any better?

No. Worse. Similar on average. Worse peak, in that formidable newfs are practically non-existent. Very limited testimony to the contrary has come my way, anyway.

[Deleted]

Jan 26, 2023 18:53:40 GMT Hardcastle said:

Jan 26, 2023 18:29:59 GMT theundertaker45 said:

Interesting, the individuals on this car and in the drawing look lean and functional with good muscularity. It seems that modern St Bernards are extremely heavy, but not in a good sense; they look unathletic and clumsy. If they looked like the "Alpine Mastiff" up there, they'd be beautiful and really impressive dogs to watch.

I mean most of these dogs are used for pulling people out of deep snow and such stuff; I doubt a normal St Bernard could use all of this weight in an effective manner. You mentioned that some odd individuals might be useful in terms of fighting, where would you normally find them?

You couldn't find them. No one is breeding them that way, it's just a case of random throw-backs popping out here and there. I've encountered some in person too. Most St Bernards are BS, but every now and then you're like "jesus where did that come from?" and you get a physically functional and temperamentally serious St Bernard. Don't count on it though, it's just a quirk of the system. They used to be legit, before they were st bernards, they've been ruined, but that ruination just means there's a mess of random crapper dogs being produced. Among them like needles in a haystack you still have throwbacks, at least to some extent. I have encountered some with St Bernards and they were pretty badass.

Do you mean B.S. at fighting, or B.S. in general? Just asking because of course not all dogs are meant to be fighters and thus shouldn't be treated as such.

[Hardcastle]

True.
However, the St Bernard by evolutionary type is a boarhound, that's what it's ancestors were before people took control of the steering wheel with obscure artificial ideas. Given that reality it's actually more firmly BS than it would be even if it was a fighting dog. More insufficiencies for that task than it has for fighting.

Now, maybe you respect the vision of the people who altered it and the new role they created. That is rescuing people from the snow. From that angle, how ruined is it?
Still a little ruined, still a little BS. This much-


As in, how far it has strayed from that ^, is how BS it is. Not so bad (but still kinda bad).