Response to AE

[slaughterhouse]

"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry."

---

I guess we're doing this all over again for you AE. You just never learn do you? It is almost pitiable. You are almost pitiable. Almost. If, you didn't know you were lying through your teeth.

You know bears are better grapplers than felids, but you'll never accept it under any circumstance. You know your arguments are invalid and incorrect, but you'll never accept it under any circumstance. You know you're wrong, but you'll never accept it under any circumstance.

You lost AE, less than even half a year back. And you're still losing. Put on your big boy pants and acknowledge it.

Dale was right about you AE, as he always was. You're a glutton for punishment. You still continue the same old stupid debate that led you to get demodded, defaced and revealed you for who you truly are and eventually led you to get kicked out of one of the last remaining bastions of critical thinking in AvA with a boot-print on your ass as a souvenir.

However, unlike the Bestiary thread, the services of Ling, Undertaker and Werm will not be required. They have dealt with you and your autism for long enough.

It's about time we end this, once and for all. The sun's getting real low. Get a sock puppet and hop on, I'm not going back to Taipan's den of vipers.

Evidence will be posted in later posts.

[slaughterhouse]

Starting off with a response about the HR.

You are partially right on this one - I skimmed through the study a little too quickly and failed to notice that those figures were in mm - not humeral robusticity in %. That one is on me.

However, what you don't realize here, Mr. Know It All, is that the study is still flawed because the serval still scores higher than the lynx in humeral robusticity in %

Let's use the formula you posted.

(ML diameter/Humeral length)*100

You already did the calculation for the serval and got an ML score of 7.1%

Okay, now let's do the same thing for the lynx.

Lynx data:

Humerus length - 166.2 mm

ML diameter - 11.08 mm

Let's plug these values into the formula:

(11.08 mm/166.2 mm) x 100 = 6.67%

6.67% < 7.1%

So, according to your study, the serval - which is lb for lb the most gracile cat - even more so than the cheetah - is more robust than the lynx?

Do you not understand that even the most gracile and least macropredatory species of lynx - the Iberian lynx - which primarily hunt lagomorphs - can still grapple larger prey like young mouflons - which is something a serval could never dream of doing? Let's not even get into the Eurasian lynx now please.

In addition to making ludicrous claims like the serval being more robust than the lynx, your study also has very low sample sizes.

Skimmed through? I told you they were in mm to your face retard. You're calling me a know it all? Right before a sperg out tangent on lynx killing baby goats?

Secondly, considering the high likelihood of female Iberian lynx present I don't see why this would be a potential flaw in the study. That is as much as the difference between the lion and the tiger two species which are anatomically almost identical. So a female Iberian lynx being as robust as a sample of male servals doesn't seem too wrong to me.

Also, while ML diameter leaves out a lot of bone thickening due to cursoriality, it doesn't leave it out completely. Due to the servals being larger as well as due to them possibly being male combined with this leaves little doubt about its reliability.

Alongside this, are you invalidating a study with dozens of data points because of a single comparison between two? You're reaching hard for any reason to discredit it.

Therefore, due to its bogus conclusions, low sample sizes and overall flawed methods of calculating "bone robusticity" (pay attention to the quotes), we cannot use your study to say that sloth bears are proportionally more robust than pantherine felids. Period.

You know that this isn't the only source calculating HR right?

Post by Undertaker in domain of the bears;

domainofthebears.proboards.com/thread/815/bone-density-robusticity-extant-ursids?page=4

Extensive Data on limb bones of all carnivorous species (very large sample of over 300 individuals from nearly 100 species) : datadryad.org/stash/dataset/doi:10.5061/dryad.77tm4

Results are the following:

Scapula Length/Width Ratio

1. Polar Bear: 89.3%

2. Sun Bear: 88.2%

3. Asiatic Black Bear: 88.1%

4. Brown Bear: 86.9%

5. Sloth Bear: 86.8%

6. American Black Bear: 83.9%

7. Giant Panda: 78.7%

8. Spectacled Bear: 76.7%

9. Arctodus Simus: 75.4%

other values:

Lion: 71.7%

Smilodon Fatalis: 72.3%

American Lion: 70.0%

Humerus ML Diameter/Humerus Length Ratio

1. Brown Bear - 10.9%

2. Arctodus Simus - 10.6%

3. American Black Bear - 10.4%

4. Polar Bear - 9.9%

5. Sloth Bear - 9.7%

6. Asiatic Black Bear - 9.4%

7. Giant Panda - 8.8%

8. Sun Bear - 8.7%

9. Spectacled Bear - 8.5%

other values:

Lion: 8.6%

Smilodon Fatalis: 12.7%

American Lion: 10.1%

Radius ML-Diameter/Radius Length Ratio

1. Polar Bear - 10.2%

2. Brown Bear - 9.9%

3. Sloth Bear - 9.2%

4. Sun Bear - 8.8%

5. Asiatic Black Bear/Giant Panda - 8.7%

6. Spectacled Bear - 8.3%

7. American Black Bear - 7.9%

other values: 

Lion: 9.4%

Smilodon Fatalis: 11.9%

American Lion: 11.3%

Ulna ML-Diameter/Ulna Length Ratio

1. Giant Panda - 6.8%

2. Sloth Bear - 6.6%

3. American Black Bear - 6.2%

4. Asiatic Black Bear/Polar Bear - 6.1%

5. Brown Bear - 6%

6. Spectacled Bear - 5.3%

7. Sun Bear - 5.1%

other values:

Lion: 5.4%

Smilodon Fatalis: 8%

Panthera Atrox: 5.6%

Femur ML-Diameter/Femur Length Ratio

1. Giant Panda - 9.8%

2. Sloth Bear - 9.0%

3. Brown Bear - 8.9%

4. Polar Bear - 8.7%

5. American Black Bear/Asiatic Black Bear/Sun Bear - 8.6%

other values:

Lion: 9.5%

Smilodon Fatalis - 9.5%

American Lion - 9.1%

Tibia ML-Diameter/Tibia Length Ratio

1. Giant Panda - 9.4%

2. Sloth Bear - 9.2%

3. Brown Bear - 8.9%

4. Sun Bear - 8.6%

5. American Black Bear - 8.4%

6. Asiatic Black Bear - 8%

7. Polar Bear - 7.9%

8. Spectacled Bear - 7.4%

other values:

Lion: 9.7%

Smilodon Fatalis: 10.9%

American Lion: 9.9%

Even with a larger sample size, bears score higher in ML HR.

You have no authority or right to claim that the method is flawed, evidently you don't seem to understand it. It measures the mediolateral width in proportion to the length of the humerus. There is no more straightforward way of calculating bone robusticity. You just don't like it because it goes against your agenda.

[slaughterhouse]

Now for the bone density argument. This won't take long at all;

You are honestly an idiot if you are openly acknowledging that your study had only single specimen sample sizes but still rely on them.

You cannot compare one lion to one brown bear and conclude that they both have the same bone density or compare one polar bear to one grizzly bear and say that the polar bear's bones are only marginally more dense than a brown bear's.

Oh, but don't worry about that, because I am about to post evidence which completely demolishes your entire argument.

You again prove your poor comprehension.

YOU were the one stating that polar bears and pantherines would have greater bone density than brown bears for macropredation. Naturally the burden of proof fell on YOU. YOU then posted a study which stated that polar bears have greater bone density. I then found the study which YOUR source CITED. Now YOU are back pedalling and acting as if MY argument relies on this study, when infact YOUR entire argument was based on it and it contradicts YOUR reasoning.

The source which YOU relied on by extension literally contradicts what YOU are fighting for.

Get it?

Also the grizzly bear was osteologically immature. Mature male grizzlies don't weigh 150 kgs, so the already negligible difference between polar and brown would be even less.

Now for the piggyback riding off of OGV;

"A polar bear’s grip strength with its forelimbs exceeds that of other bears for holding down large prey."

"On average, polar bears have a thicker and more robust skeletal structure for supporting their weight and massive muscles."

"No other bear can match the polar bear’s ability to break thick ice sheets with their pure strength."

Guess what Ryan aka _X_ aka Slaughterhouse?

Not only does this support my assertion that the polar bear has stronger bones and forelimbs than other bear species, but it also gives credence to the fact that strength has different adaptations - adaptations towards digging vs grappling large prey.

Brown bears score higher than polar bears in bone robusticity studies, yet the science shows that polar bears have stronger forelimbs and a stronger skeletal structure because they hunt larger and more formidable prey on average.

Pantherine felids hunt even more impressive prey relative to their bodyweight, which means that cats - relative to bodyweight - should be able to grapple and strike more adeptly than bears.

The first and third quote are almost certainly because polar bears are the LARGEST bears. Naturally the LARGEST bears would have greater forelimb strength AND greater capacity to break ice sheets.

The second point also relies on this by extension. Heard of the square cube law, genius? Density increases exponentially as compared to surface area. Due to this they would require sturdier skeletons. But a theoretical similarly sized polar bear would not be significantly more robust than a brown bear.

Polar bear bone density is due to the aforementioned square cube law and their greater aquatic tendencies, not due to grappling with large prey, which is nonsense you are making up yourself.

[slaughterhouse]

It seems as if the faggot has seen this and thinks I'm not going to address the rest of his spastic rant. 

Now to a point through which you have expressed your homosexuality the most;

The fact that you just blatantly dismissed a scientific study without offering any counter-evidence or solid reasoning says it all.

The study I posted which stated that bones constantly adapt to withstanding the stresses of different activities (such as digging vs grappling large prey) disproves your second sentence.

This is hilarious! You are oblivious to the implications of your own studies!

If bones being regenerative tissues was something new to you then we may have discovered the new lowest point of your knowledge.

Bones do indeed adapt to local loading environments like what your source says. That doesn't change the fact that the anatomical changes occuring due to such external stimulus in bears are more advantageous in terms of grappling than felines.

Bones being regenerative tissues is in fact one of the best arguments one can make for the connection between humeral robusticity and increased force exertion capabilities. One of the major factors affecting osteological development is stresses caused by muscles. Muscular growth directly affects skeletal growth.

An increase in muscle mass produces stretching of collagen fibers and periosteum at the interface, resulting in the stimulation of local bone growth. Alternatively, higher blood flow to bone might lead to an increase in bone strength, since blood flows to limbs at a level proportional to muscle mass.

Interaction between Muscle and Bone; H. Kaiji, 2014

Thus from greater humeral width we can directly infer greater force absorption capabilities (robusticity) as well as indirectly infer greater force exertion capabilities (muscularity). The former being more prominently observed than the latter in animals engaging in mouth grappling and vice versa in animals which engage in grappling via forelimbs.

Thus, bears can produce and sustain greater force, alongside being more dexterous. They are better grapplers. Cope, seethe, rage and mald.

[slaughterhouse]

I will post regarding the polar bear predation here, grizzlies will have to wait a bit.

I do know that actually. 

I never said that polar bears never scavenge of dead walruses - most predators do scavenge from time-to-time.

Also, killing juvenile walruses is more impressive than killing neonate ungulates.

Stirling wasn't referring to them scavenging idiot, that's their hunting strategy. And Stirling isn't the only one saying it;

The actual hunt always starts with the bear approaching a walrus rookery, first walking and then running the last several dozen metres. From this point, different bears will chooses different tactics. Out of 75 polar bear hunting episodes on coastal walrus rookeries that were observed from start to finish, about 9 percent were successful. In all cases, young walruses under 12 months did not survive. Only large male bears risked directly attacking adult walruses on the beach, and often received bloody tusk wounds. Female bears were more cautious hunters than males, who were more vicious in their attacks even though it didn’t improve their chances of success. In all successful hunts, bears raided a rookery, running along the perimetre to cause the walruses to flee for safety. They would then snatch an unprotected walrus calf from the crowd of panic-stricken fleeing walruses.

programmes.putin.kremlin.ru/en/bear/news/25083

By Nikita Ovysyanovik. Name sound familiar? She's the one you used to say that they attempt to hunt adults

They attempt to hunt adults. Adult females are also included in that number, which weigh little more than adult male polar bears. The number of successful attempts on males is still only two.

Over the entire period of my observations, I never witnessed an adult male bear stop and kill a healthy adult walrus on a beach. I once observed and videotaped an adult male bear successfully hunt an adult walrus on an ice floe, but on the beach adult walruses always had enough strength to make it to the water, even with a bear riding on their back. Most likely, the slippery surface of an ice floe doesn’t provide enough traction for the walrus to make it to the edge and escape into the water. On the beach, the bears could successfully hunt only young walruses or adult walruses that were sick or dying from exhaustion.

So she has never seen even an adult male polar bear kill an adult walrus without it being compromised in some way.

Yeah... no need to grapple - all the bear has to do is use it's powerful forelimbs to hold the ringed seal down. That is even more impressive.

It's a 400 kilo bear pinning a 60 kilo seal you sperg. That is not impressive. Pinning something that is literally out of its element and which is less than ⅙th your size is impressive to you? How stupid can one be? Have you been lobotomized?

Not to mention that if you refer to the polar bear animal profile on this very forum, you will see that it explicitely acknowledges that polar bears can kill bull walruses 3x their size by using their massive forepaws to inflict clubbing blows to the walruses's head.

That's a general statement. Substantiate it with an account.

What do I have to say about that?

I have to say that you are either extremely ignorant or a lying fraud, because while you posted a study which stated that polar bears killed seal pups, you also failed to take into account studies like this:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 20%5B44%5D.

Which state:

However, because subadult and adult bearded seals are substantially larger than ringed seals, it appears that the majority are killed by adult male polar bears, 

So male polar bears do indeed kill adult bearded seals.

You prove your poor reading comprehension once again, it is a constant at this point.

My statement : Polar bears mostly kill seal pups
Your source's statement : Most adult bearded seals are killed by adult male polar bears.

Do you comprehend the fact that I never argued their ability to kill adult bearded seals? Nor that the two statements are incompatible. You can call me ignorant, even though you are wrong about that, but that will never change the fact that you are profoundly mentally challenged.

And now... Oh boy. I'm going to rip you apart for this one.

I suppose you also haven't seen these two accounts of polar bears killing adult male walruses (credit to poster Taipan for finding this source):

www.bearbiology.org/fileadmin/t ... ling_8.pdf

You are pathetic. There is no sugar coating it. You could atleast attempt to proof read the shit you vomit out on the board, but no, you insist to make a mockery out of yourself. Are you a masochist by any chance?

You act condescending to me about not seeing the two accounts that I posted in the same fucking thread in the same fucking message that you are replying to.

They are literally the exact same fucking accounts I sent from the same fucking document. I gave you the damn study I got those accounts from in quotations and even the image posted by Taipan has the damn name in big letters for autists like you to read it.

"Interactions between Polar Bears and Overwintering Walruses in the Central Canadian High Arctic"

Credit to poster Taipan my ass. And you have the audacity to say this;

As far as debating goes, I fear nobody on these forums

You fear nobody because no one wants to debate you. No one wants to keep repeatedly banging common sense into your thick troglodytic skull as long as those two 'stooges' have.

You should be thanking Dale, Bolushi, UT, ling, werm, Warsaw, Astarothz and everybody else who has thrashed you and dragged your face through the mud on your fucking knees for even bothering with such a tremendous ignoramus as you.

The only reason you know anything more than the layman about animals is because of them and their willingness to debate you.

The number of adult male walrus killed by polar bears remain at the grand total of two, nonetheless because your video obviously shows a cow, as it is visually the same size if not smaller than the bear.

[Bolushi]

The fact this tranny fag AE thinks I give a shit about sharks... no no, the day I'd cry is the day cat fans managed to win dogo argentino vs puma. But they can't, they never will, and haven't.

And all of those people that gave you praises, AE, have NO clue what's going on with you on the other side.

Neutral individuals like X and Undertaker saw you feuding with me and Hardcastle, and you piss even the spectators off so much they ended up throwing eggs at you. There are underground memes being spread across discord servers with your family photos with movie advertisements, like "The Predator". Fucking EDP ain't got shit on you, at least he didn't rape any kids yet, you got way closer than he did. Let the goddamn down syndrome kids sit on your lap... "what's th- hard thingy I feel... in my pants?" "Oh nothing, must be feeling something, uhh don't mind me with my RAGING BONER BECAUSE I FUCKING LOVE KIDS"

Someone needs to arrest you. 

[slaughterhouse]

Jan 27, 2024 1:44:27 GMT Bolushi said:

The fact this tranny fag AE thinks I give a shit about sharks... no no, the day I'd cry is the day cat fans managed to win dogo argentino vs puma. But they can't, they never will, and haven't.

And all of those people that gave you praises, AE, have NO clue what's going on with you on the other side.

Neutral individuals like X and Undertaker saw you feuding with me and Hardcastle, and you piss even the spectators off so much they ended up throwing eggs at you. There are underground memes being spread across discord servers with your family photos with movie advertisements, like "The Predator". Fucking EDP ain't got shit on you, at least he didn't rape any kids yet, you got way closer than he did. Let the goddamn down syndrome kids sit on your lap... "what's th- hard thingy I feel... in my pants?" "Oh nothing, must be feeling something, uhh don't mind me with my RAGING BONER BECAUSE I FUCKING LOVE KIDS"

Someone needs to arrest you. 

The Predator LMAO this shit writes itself!

[slaughterhouse]

Uhh that stupid mofo has posted again on Carnivora. Lots more stupid shit to debunk.

[Hardcastle]

Jan 27, 2024 8:05:09 GMT slaughterhouse said:

Uhh that stupid mofo has posted again on Carnivora. Lots more stupid shit to debunk.

He's truly something else, lol. A real menace to society whose utterly misplaced arrogance quickly spirals out of control when he starts feeling comfortable. I wasn't kidding when I said he is going to be a nightmare as an adult IRL working his way through corporate environments. He doesn't even have power, but just the perceived power of being allowed on carnivora while others aren't is enough for him to quickly immediately exploit and abuse it to the maximum level. He just really puts his foot on the gas the instant he feels anything resembling power over someone, and he seeks that feeling out almost like a crack fiend, which is why he will go out of his way to do mental gymnastics to make something as pathetic as being unrestricted on carnivora (literally the mark of a fucking loser) be this huge deal that gives him authority.
This is going to be a pattern throughout his life, he will leave a wake of victims behind him as he starts to figure out adult life, and I really feel like he needs to be stopped.

[Hardcastle]

The worst part is he literally steals my debate style. Saying things like "deranged low IQ imbecile". While I was destroying him all those times it is like he had a little notebook out all "Hmm I kinda like that one". My tone and words are littered through all his posts, just reapplied to moronic talking points.

[Bolushi]

if it wasn't for the fact that the other forum wasn't on life support right now, you, Dale and Bolushi's sorry asses would have been purged off that forum.

They can't do that. The board is locked in now as a giant friend group, so by glassing either _X_, Hardcastle or Bolushi you will end up with collateral damage. 
Also I am 12% of all posts on Bestiary. Hardcastle is 11%, X is 1% (post more faggot)
This would mean basically a 25% decrease in activity. Realistically a lot more, due to the chain reaction it would cause, because you are executing the founding fathers of the forum who are friends with everyone.

[slaughterhouse]

Jan 27, 2024 12:31:01 GMT Bolushi said:

if it wasn't for the fact that the other forum wasn't on life support right now, you, Dale and Bolushi's sorry asses would have been purged off that forum.

They can't do that. The board is locked in now as a giant friend group, so by glassing either _X_, Hardcastle or Bolushi you will end up with collateral damage. 
Also I am 12% of all posts on Bestiary. Hardcastle is 11%, X is 1% (post more faggot)
This would mean basically a 25% decrease in activity. Realistically a lot more, due to the chain reaction it would cause, because you are executing the founding fathers of the forum who are friends with everyone.

Fuck youuuuu I have to deal with this retard. I'd have been at 350 by now.

Hardcastle  Bolushi

This sperg doesn't realise that the radius he's popping off on is this bone;



I'll see how he justifies the importance of this bone compared to this;



Or this;



when I rip him apart in an hour or so. Ohhhh I'm gonna enjoy this

[slaughterhouse]

Jan 27, 2024 10:00:39 GMT Hardcastle said:

The worst part is he literally steals my debate style. Saying things like "deranged low IQ imbecile". While I was destroying him all those times it is like he had a little notebook out all "Hmm I kinda like that one". My tone and words are littered through all his posts, just reapplied to moronic talking points.

There is nothing he can do that hasn't been done before, the study he's hyping up,

"building a mammalian superpredator"

Is an exact word to word paraphrase of the name "how to build a mammalian superpredator" which Vodmeister posted a few years back against bro bear. 

And guess what the fuck it says, a slap right on the face of this titanic retard:

These relationships are less clear when fossil taxa are considered. Smilodon and T. carnifex have converged superficially on bears with respect to general body shape and proportions, although both are clearly distinguished from the latter by highly specialized hypercarnivorous dentitia

Ohh this is gonna be even more fun.

[slaughterhouse]

OHH THIS IS GONNA BE FUN. THIS FUCKER IS DEAD.

These two fossil taxa may represent a large extinct mammalian ecomorph adapted to predation on relatively large species in which the primary selective forces on postcranial morphology have been for power and stability, while primary cranio­dental selective forces were for adaptations that facil­itate the efficient killing and butchery of relatively large prey. If so, then this specialized ‘super-predator’ ecomorph can be defined on the basis of a handful of features comprising ‘bear-like’ short metapodials and tibiae relative to proximal limb elements, powerful forelimbs and high robusticity of body form in combination with extreme ‘cat-like’ carnassialization of the cheektooth dentition.

REMEMBER MY NAME AE YOU'RE NOT GONNA FORGET IT ANYTIME SOON EITHER WAY HAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Hardcastle]

I'm kind of easing into working on a response to some of his shittier points in that thread too, just recovering from covid and I never seem to be able to stay awake longer than a couple of hours at a time. But yeah it is just mind blowing what a huge piece of shit he is.