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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2023 3:22:28 GMT
those are not big jaguars. They are from the amazon region which currently holds specimens who weigh no more than 70kgs, i know that you are not trying to imply that leopards have proportionally larger skulls than jaguars, and more so trying to prove their overlap in size, but that's not a great example. Either way we have the massive Namibian leopard shot near a farm who weighed 108kgs (could be because of stomach content but honestly it didn't look gorged at all) which is about the average pantanal jaguar in size. Considering that the average skull length for a 100kg Pantanal male jaguar is 290 mm in length I wouldn't say they're small. After all these jaguars are the pinnacle of its species. Also things get tricky in the Amazon or the Atlantic Forest since the populations are scattered. I know the population of Mamirauá is smallish with males weighing 50-70kg but Hoogesteijn's 1996 study gives us an 83kg average for males from a different part of the Amazon. That's why this whole thing about leopard-jaguar debates exist because there are so many variables. There are jaguar populations more arboreal than leopards due to them surviving floods despite leopards being called "built for climbing". If you look at Persian male leopards in northern Iran (Alborz, Mazandaran and Golestan province), you'll see they're built to live in colder environments and kill tough prey like wild boar or free ranging cattle. Such leopards would murder the tree living jaguars within seconds. except pantanal jaguars don't weigh 100kgs on average. Also skull size is also up to the individual, some jaguars might have bigger heads at the same size than others, but as a rule, a pantanal jaguar would not have a skull size equal to 80-90kg leopards, because that would mean that the leopards themselves have much larger skulls proportionally which they absolutely don't. All amazon basin jaguars are sort of smallish, the ones Hoogesteijn measured probably belonged to the peruvian part of the amazon which does have big cats, but usually amazon basin jaguars will be no larger than mexican jaguars and in fact, smaller at max weights historically. Either way, i heavily doubt 83kgs would be an average size for anything there. Here is an 84kg specimen shot between Morro do mendanha and Morro de macaco, which is the largest amazonian jaguar i've seen, which is about large persian leopard in size. Atlantic forest though, they do are large jaguars.  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2023 3:54:14 GMT
those are not big jaguars. They are from the amazon region which currently holds specimens who weigh no more than 70kgs, i know that you are not trying to imply that leopards have proportionally larger skulls than jaguars, and more so trying to prove their overlap in size, but that's not a great example. Either way we have the massive Namibian leopard shot near a farm who weighed 108kgs (could be because of stomach content but honestly it didn't look gorged at all) which is about the average pantanal jaguar in size. Considering that the average skull length for a 100kg Pantanal male jaguar is 290 mm in length I wouldn't say they're small. After all these jaguars are the pinnacle of its species. Also things get tricky in the Amazon or the Atlantic Forest since the populations are scattered. I know the population of Mamirauá is smallish with males weighing 50-70kg but Hoogesteijn's 1996 study gives us an 83kg average for males from a different part of the Amazon. That's why this whole thing about leopard-jaguar debates exist because there are so many variables. There are jaguar populations more arboreal than leopards due to them surviving floods despite leopards being called "built for climbing". If you look at Persian male leopards in northern Iran (Alborz, Mazandaran and Golestan province), you'll see they're built to live in colder environments and kill tough prey like wild boar or free ranging cattle. Such leopards would murder the tree living jaguars within seconds. also they are not at the "pinnacle of their species", they are still much smaller than what a pantanal jaguar or llanos jaguar would be which are indeed at the pinnacle of their species. Those are just medium sized-largish jaguars on a higher end. |
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Post by Shortridge on Oct 17, 2023 19:40:49 GMT
Considering that the average skull length for a 100kg Pantanal male jaguar is 290 mm in length I wouldn't say they're small. After all these jaguars are the pinnacle of its species. Also things get tricky in the Amazon or the Atlantic Forest since the populations are scattered. I know the population of Mamirauá is smallish with males weighing 50-70kg but Hoogesteijn's 1996 study gives us an 83kg average for males from a different part of the Amazon. That's why this whole thing about leopard-jaguar debates exist because there are so many variables. There are jaguar populations more arboreal than leopards due to them surviving floods despite leopards being called "built for climbing". If you look at Persian male leopards in northern Iran (Alborz, Mazandaran and Golestan province), you'll see they're built to live in colder environments and kill tough prey like wild boar or free ranging cattle. Such leopards would murder the tree living jaguars within seconds. except pantanal jaguars don't weigh 100kgs on average. Also skull size is also up to the individual, some jaguars might have bigger heads at the same size than others, but as a rule, a pantanal jaguar would not have a skull size equal to 80-90kg leopards, because that would mean that the leopards themselves have much larger skulls proportionally which they absolutely don't. All amazon basin jaguars are sort of smallish, the ones Hoogesteijn measured probably belonged to the peruvian part of the amazon which does have big cats, but usually amazon basin jaguars will be no larger than mexican jaguars and in fact, smaller at max weights historically. Either way, i heavily doubt 83kgs would be an average size for anything there. Here is an 84kg specimen shot between Morro do mendanha and Morro de macaco, which is the largest amazonian jaguar i've seen, which is about large persian leopard in size. Atlantic forest though, they do are large jaguars. A Pantanal male jaguar has on average a skull of 19". Only the biggest male leopards achieve that mark so those leopards are certainly not 80-90kg but rather 100kg or slightly more. When they have the same skull size, it's the leopard that will be heavier because indeed the jaguar has a proportionally bigger skull. It does include the Brazilian Amazon:   |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2023 23:10:10 GMT
except pantanal jaguars don't weigh 100kgs on average. Also skull size is also up to the individual, some jaguars might have bigger heads at the same size than others, but as a rule, a pantanal jaguar would not have a skull size equal to 80-90kg leopards, because that would mean that the leopards themselves have much larger skulls proportionally which they absolutely don't. All amazon basin jaguars are sort of smallish, the ones Hoogesteijn measured probably belonged to the peruvian part of the amazon which does have big cats, but usually amazon basin jaguars will be no larger than mexican jaguars and in fact, smaller at max weights historically. Either way, i heavily doubt 83kgs would be an average size for anything there. Here is an 84kg specimen shot between Morro do mendanha and Morro de macaco, which is the largest amazonian jaguar i've seen, which is about large persian leopard in size. Atlantic forest though, they do are large jaguars. A Pantanal male jaguar has on average a skull of 19". Only the biggest male leopards achieve that mark so those leopards are certainly not 80-90kg but rather 100kg or slightly more. When they have the same skull size, it's the leopard that will be heavier because indeed the jaguar has a proportionally bigger skull. It does include the Brazilian Amazon: i have no trouble believing leopards surpassing 100kgs, so yeah. Then that just reinforces my point, brazilian amazon jaguars are the small ones. |
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Post by Bolushi on Oct 24, 2023 22:28:05 GMT
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