Establishing a dog classification system

[Hardcastle]

This is a challenge I have struggled with for a long time, with a couple of good dog-brains here maybe it is something we could brainstorm and try to figure out.

Basically I want to establish how many genuinely different dog types there are. Distinct genetically and in function/instincts/drive-balance etc.

This is what I can come up with-
--------------
Pariah (Basenji, Dingo, NGSD, Thai Ridgeback, Formosan Mountain, Canaan, Carolina, Phu Quoc, Telomian)
Polar spitz (including scandinavian, finnish, russian, alaskan/canadian/greenland)
Japanese/Korean Spitz (the japanese 6 and the jindo, pungsan, donggyeongi, jeju, Nureongi)
Chinese variety (Shar pei, Chow chow, Chongqing, Tibetan mastiff)
American variety (xolo, Peruvian hairless)
toy (who cares)
terrier (jrt, wheaten, bedlington, patt, jagd, cairn, border, scottish, irish, fox, manchester, lakeland, etc)
Feist (terrier/cur)
Cur (catahoula, mountain cur, black mouthed cur, rhodesian ridgeback)
Continental gun (dalmatian, Viszla, Weimeraner, Munsterlander)
Pointer (English, spanish, german,danish, slovakian, Spinone)
Setter (gordon, red, irish, english)
Spaniels (cocker, springer, clumber, boykin)
Retrievers (lab, golden, newfoundland, cheasepeake, curly coat, flat coat, BS duck tolling)
Water dog (portuguese and poodle?)
Continental herder (german, dutch, belgian, beauceron, Briard, berger)
Bovine Drover (Bouvier, Rottweiler, Giant Schnauzer)
Heelers (ACD, Lancashire heeler, corgis)
British herders (including Border collie, Rough collie, smooth, Shetland sheepdog, Australian shepherd, koolies and kelpies)
Mountain dog (includes st bernard, Bernese mountain, Greater swiss mountain, leonberger, hovawart)
Modern LGD (pyr, tatra, Maremma, akbash, Kuvasz, komondor, puli, cuvac)
Rustic LGD (Alabai, tobet, kuchi, volkodav, Caucasian ovcharka, kangals/anatolians, sarplaninac)
Bulldog (alano, ambull, corso, boerboel, ddb, presa)
Boarhound (dogo, bull arab, great dane, english mastiff, fila, tosa, Bully kutta)
Bull terrier (ebt, amstaff, sbt, apbt, gull terr)
Archaic Sighthound (Ibizan, pharoah hound, cirneco d'ell etna, Azawakh, saluki, afghan, sloughi, chippiparai, kanni, rajapalayam, mudhol)
Sporting Sighthound (english and spanish greyhound, deerhound, Borzoi, wolfhound, whippet, rampur, etc)
Scenthound (foxhound, harrier, coonhounds, plotthound, bloodhound, otterhound, beagle, basset, dachshund)
----------------

I guess questions I would have are- should scenthounds be divided further? Sighthounds are divided for a pretty good reason, the archaic sighthounds are very distant genetically from the modern "aristocrat" sighthounds and totally different in temperament. Functionally they are the same but those two facts are very significant and I'd say they are at least 2 different animals. The gun dogs aren't that distantly related but still are distinctly different in their instincts and drives. I'm not totally sure if we can divide scenthounds like that? But at the same time I don't know scenthounds THAT well. I was half thinking the walking variety and free running variety, but I dunno. Genetically they are all very close, I know that. Ditto on further terrier division. Airedale is kind of weird, I actually think I consider it a cur or possibly a feist.

Would love to get any thoughts on this. Possible other categories, possible cases where you think categories should be merged...

[Bolushi]

Jun 26, 2023 10:31:48 GMT Hardcastle said:

This is a challenge I have struggled with for a long time, with a couple of good dog-brains here maybe it is something we could brainstorm and try to figure out.

Basically I want to establish how many genuinely different dog types there are. Distinct genetically and in function/instincts/drive-balance etc.

This is what I can come up with-
--------------
Pariah (Basenji, Dingo, NGSD, Thai Ridgeback, Formosan Mountain, Canaan, Carolina, Phu Quoc, Telomian)
Polar spitz (including scandinavian, finnish, russian, alaskan/canadian/greenland)
Japanese/Korean Spitz (the japanese 6 and the jindo, pungsan, donggyeongi, jeju, Nureongi)
Chinese variety (Shar pei, Chow chow, Chongqing, Tibetan mastiff)
American variety (xolo, Peruvian hairless)
toy (who cares)
terrier (jrt, wheaten, bedlington, patt, jagd, cairn, border, scottish, irish, fox, manchester, lakeland, etc)
Feist (terrier/cur)
Cur (catahoula, mountain cur, black mouthed cur, rhodesian ridgeback)
Continental gun (dalmatian, Viszla, Weimeraner, Munsterlander)
Pointer (English, spanish, german)
Setter (gordon, red, irish, english, danish, slovakian, Spinone)
Spaniels (cocker, springer, clumber, boykin)
Retrievers (lab, golden, newfoundland, cheasepeake, curly coat, flat coat, BS duck tolling)
Water dog (portuguese and poodle?)
Continental herder (german, dutch, belgian, beauceron, Briard, berger)
Bovine Drover (Bouvier, Rottweiler, Giant Schnauzer)
Heelers (ACD, Lancashire heeler, corgis)
British herders (including Border collie, Rough collie, smooth, Shetland sheepdog, Australian shepherd, koolies and kelpies)
Mountain dog (includes st bernard, Bernese mountain, Greater swiss mountain, leonberger, hovawart)
Modern LGD (pyr, tatra, Maremma, akbash, Kuvasz, komondor, puli, cuvac)
Rustic LGD Alabai, tobet, kuchi, volkodav, Caucasian ovcharka, kangals/anatolians, sarplaninac)
Bulldog (alano, ambull, corso, boerboel, ddb, presa)
Boarhound (dogo, bull arab, great dane, english mastiff, fila, tosa, Bully kutta)
Bull terrier (ebt, amstaff, sbt, apbt, gull terr)
Archaic Sighthound (Ibizan, pharoah hound, cirneco d'ell etna, Azawakh, saluki, afghan, sloughi, chippiparai, kanni, rajapalayam, mudhol)
Sporting Sighthound (english and spanish greyhound, deerhound, Borzoi, wolfhound, whippet, rampur, etc)
Scenthound (foxhound, harrier, coonhounds, plotthound, bloodhound, otterhound, beagle, basset, dachshund)
----------------

I guess questions I would have are- should scenthounds be divided further? Sighthounds are divided for a pretty good reason, the archaic sighthounds are very distant genetically from the modern "aristocrat" sighthounds and totally different in temperament. Functionally they are the same but those two facts are very significant and I'd say they are at least 2 different animals. The gun dogs aren't that distantly related but still are distinctly different in their instincts and drives. I'm not totally sure if we can divide scenthounds like that? But at the same time I don't know scenthounds THAT well. I was half thinking the walking variety and free running variety, but I dunno. Genetically they are all very close, I know that. Ditto on further terrier division. Airedale is kind of weird, I actually think I consider it a cur or possibly a feist.

Would love to get any thoughts on this. Possible other categories, possible cases where you think categories should be merged...

I think the Airedale Terrier should be in cur. It's a scenthound (otterhound) outcrossed to a bunch of rugged country dogs of various types and backgrounds. It's like how the ridgeback came along but reversed to get a very similar thing.
Scenthounds could be sub-divided. Kind of like how bull terrier is just a branch off from bulldog but IMO not "a 3rd category" but "a bulldog category". The Dachshund, Basset Hound and Beagle (and similar) shouldn't be grouped in with bloodhounds, coonhounds and plotthounds IMO.
Will come back to this later...

[Hardcastle]

Yeah scenthound subdivision seems inevitable and necessary, but establishing what they are is a challenge. How many different animals fall under the scenthound category? Dachshund might even be their own category since they are basically scenthounds that go underground and bark at badgers. That's not really like anything else.

Even though they look very different bassets and bloodhounds are kind of similar in that I think they are designed for people to stay with them while they track.

Even though beagles look different I'm not so sure they are that different from coonhounds, foxhounds and harriers and etc. They are free running scent trailing dogs.

Tentatively I'd suggest maybe those 3 categories. Subterranean scenthounds, free running scenthounds and "lead on" scenthounds??

Terriers probably need similar consideration. A Manchester terrier is basically built for the bloodsport of rat baiting, bedlingtons are weirdly coursing terriers but also water/otter hunting terriers, the jagd is kind of a big game terrier in some respects and that is before you even get into the subterranean classic earthwork terriers.

[Hardcastle]

Are Jagds ever used to go underground? Everytime I've seen them they seem like free-running hunting dogs, often targetting big game and working almost like curs.

How many different types of terrier would you guys say there are really? Like function wise?

Should spitz be divided further? Or perhaps less? Spitz do a variety of roles, but seem to pre-date significant adaptation for them. Are the herding spitz markedly different to the hunting and sledging spitz breeds?

Is the rustic vs modern split for LGDs the most logical one?

Musth lycaon Bolushi Wyatt homebaseblackface pinky lincoln grippingwhiteness (think that is all the dog guys, past and present lol)

[Bolushi]

Jun 28, 2023 11:28:28 GMT Hardcastle said:

Are Jagds ever used to go underground? Everytime I've seen them they seem like free-running hunting dogs, often targetting big game and working almost like curs.

How many different types of terrier would you guys say there are really? Like function wise?

Should spitz be divided further? Or perhaps less? Spitz do a variety of roles, but seem to pre-date significant adaptation for them. Are the herding spitz markedly different to the hunting and sledging spitz breeds?

Is the rustic vs modern split for LGDs the most logical one?

Musth lycaon Bolushi Wyatt homebaseblackface pinky lincoln grippingwhiteness (think that is all the dog guys, past and present lol)

Jagdterriers work the ground, but there's different lines for different reasons and also even amongst the same lines you might get a few 25-30lb Jagds and use the 15-20lb ones for the earth and the big ones for other things. Sell them to people with different tasks.
So the Jagd can be anything but any dog under 20lbs is probably an earth dog and everything above 20lbs is probably not an earth dog. 

[Hardcastle]

In america I see or read about jagds killing bobcats underground, killing racoons and occassionally killing coyotes and harassing black bears up trees and etc. In europe I mostly actually see them working like curs for brown bears and wild boar for guys with rifles.

Doing some research, it seems they were invented by nazis, lol seriously.
During the nazi regime there was a guy named Lutz Heck, who many animal enthusiasts have probably heard about because he tried to recreate the Aurochs and created "Hecks Cattle", and did the same with the extinct ancestor of the horse and made "Hecks horse". He is also the guy who aspired to rewild Poland and set it aside as a hunting preserve, along with notorious nazi war criminal Hermann Willhelm Gorring.

They created the Jagd to be the ultimate hunting dog, the "superior german" hunting dog, to use in a "Pleistocene park" they envisioned for greater-Germany if they won the war.

Kind of a weird choice, but apparently terriers were extra trendy at that time in the 1930s. They acquired 4 black and tan "fell terriers" (likely border terriers - germans seemed to like black and tan as a trademark) from Britain (where terriers actually come from) but made the dumb mistake of going for pure-bred prize winning show dogs, and then they sucked. They then crossed them with working fox-hunting terriers and got better results. I think being put to work since is really what made the Jagd what it is.

It's ironic because their dumb ideas about eugenics and racial purity were disproved by this little dog experiment, just as they would go on to be disproven at the Olympics.

It's hard to get a clear idea on what their main purpose was intended to be, a few other guys were involved in the breeding program, one a "cynologist" but a couple others were very very keen fox hunters. So maybe that was the main point. Possibly they actually did intend to hunt behind packs of german foxhounds (Deutsche Bracke) and then have jagds for the coupe de grace on holed up foxes. The fact there seems to be a surviving culture of hunting boar and brown bear with them as well could be significant. Deutsche Bracke also hunt deer in the traditional "foxhound" style. Maybe they generally hunted on horseback behind bracke and then had jagds to release at the end.

I exhausted wikipedia and google, and then asked Chat gtp, and they came up with this interesting nugget -

Lutz Heck and Hermann Göring, both known for their involvement in animal breeding and hunting, did work on the development and breeding of several dog breeds. However, it's important to note that their activities and contributions are controversial due to their association with the Nazi regime and their unethical practices.

One of the dog breeds they worked on was the Jagdterrier, also known as the German Hunt Terrier. This breed was created by crossing various hunting terrier breeds to produce a versatile hunting dog capable of tracking, chasing, and retrieving game. The exact involvement of Heck and Göring in the development of the Jagdterrier is a matter of debate, and it's unclear to what extent they were directly responsible for its creation.

In addition to the Jagdterrier, Heck and Göring were interested in breeding other hunting dog breeds, primarily for use in hunting large game. They aimed to create a dog breed called the German Wolfhound by crossing various breeds, including Scottish Deerhounds, Borzois, and Irish Wolfhounds, with the intention of producing a large and powerful hunting dog. However, their attempts to create this breed were largely unsuccessful, and the German Wolfhound never became an established breed.

It's worth mentioning that their breeding efforts were motivated by their desire to restore the image of certain dog breeds to fit their idealized vision of a powerful and Aryan-dominated Germany. However, their methods were highly questionable, as they often practiced eugenics and promoted the idea of selective breeding based on Nazi ideology.

That's pretty damn interesting. A german wolfhound. Not surprised they failed though, they didn't understand performance breeding. Terriers are relatively easy to get right, reviving big show dogs back into working dogs is harder, with very little margin for error. They probably were totally focussed on the breeding with not enough hunting to get the real performance breeding results.

Anyway, back to terriers...
Terriers really aren't a "strong suit" of mine, I'll be the first to admit. I have a rather clear picture on the history of MOST dogs but terriers are almost mysterious. It is kind of hard to pin down their origin, where they descend from, what their relationship is with other dogs...

[Musth]

Jun 28, 2023 11:28:28 GMT Hardcastle said:

Are Jagds ever used to go underground? Everytime I've seen them they seem like free-running hunting dogs, often targetting big game and working almost like curs.

How many different types of terrier would you guys say there are really? Like function wise?

Should spitz be divided further? Or perhaps less? Spitz do a variety of roles, but seem to pre-date significant adaptation for them. Are the herding spitz markedly different to the hunting and sledging spitz breeds?

Is the rustic vs modern split for LGDs the most logical one?

Musth lycaon Bolushi Wyatt homebaseblackface pinky lincoln grippingwhiteness (think that is all the dog guys, past and present lol)

Yes they are used for underground. Their main purpose it to be a Versatile hunting dog. Retrieve a duck, flush upland game birds, trail a rabbit, hunt wild boar, and to go underground after fox, badger. Reason why the Germans probably considered them a superior hunting dog. They can do it all… want to hunt ducks? Wild boar? Go underground? Upland? Rabbit? Need to Blood trail? Well you can basically almost do it all with one dog. And they’re damn good at everything. 

Back in the day(and present) many Germans consider the drahthaar the ultimate hunting dog. Superior bird dog, bigger size( more durable in the feild from injury, better for handling big game) and could do all the things a jagd can accept a bit better and better obedience. The good ones are known to be a hard dog too, similar to an Airedales hardness. In present day they are mostly used strictly as a bird dog, very few are tested on fur any more which is a shame.

 Unfortunately in Germany you are now only allowed to Bay a boar or badger… illegal to catch with dogs…. Which is why most of the best Jagdterrier now come from Serbia instead of Germany. Where they can still test their dogs properly against fox and badger. 

With that said they’re not the same quality as an Australian boar hound. Don’t have quite as good as scent as a pure scent hound(but they come close here). Or retrieve as good as pure bird dog. But they are pretty damn good at everything and can be runners up for the above. 

As far as ground work jagds tend to be a harder type of dog. However they can be hard keepers, and tend to rub large so Patterdales tend to be preferred and even superior in some ways for ground work. 


For the different styles of working terriers you have the Baying, mixers, and hard dogs. Historically you had the white terriers and black terriers type of dogs. The black ones were said to be harder dogs and the white dogs said to be more well rounded. But I’m not a huge history buff either.