Jaguar Interactions With North America's Megafauna
Jun 19, 2023 13:45:34 GMT
Hardcastle and Bolushi like this
Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jun 19, 2023 13:45:34 GMT
What happens when...
...this guy is dropped...
...here?
In the ‘’Cougar vs Jaguar thread’’, I asked a question about how we thought jaguars would relate with the animals in North America if we replaced cougars with them, but I didn’t get much response regarding that, so we have this thread today. Let’s start:
American Black Bear
Now this is tricky but is probably one of the easier things to handle. How do you think the jaguar would interact with black bears? This question wouldn’t be so much of a pain in the neck if we had some insight into how they relate with the spectacled bears down in their home in South America.
Sadly, we do not, there is very little information regarding jaguar-spectacled bear relationships. If there was a substantial amount of information on any relationships between the feline and the ursine, it wouldn’t NECESSARILY be indicative of the experience the big cat would have up north, but it would give some kind of clue, some kind of ‘’educated guess.’’
Obviously, we can’t count on it as a predictor of what the jaguar would face because of the fact that there might (or should or would) be differences in temperament, aggression and overall attitude between a spectacled bear and an ABB. One might have an approach that is better at facing or seeing off a big cat than the other. That’s why any hypothetical jaguar-spectacled bear relationships still wouldn’t be 100% reliable.
But the thing is we don’t even have that, so we’re left in the dark to use our discretion and maybe the black bear’s relationship with cougars??
But here’s the problem with cougars. Many times, when black bears (or bears in general) show up, they don’t even bother staying around to protest, they don’t even make any attempt to deter the bear, no hissing, no growling. They just pack their things and leave.
This isn’t what happens EVERY TIME though; they sometimes stand their ground, hissing and growling and even swiping paws at the bear and using their remarkable agileness to stay out of the bear’s retaliations as evidenced by videos on YouTube. But the general rule remains: ‘’see bear and make a run for it.’’
The problem I see with using this as a judge for how the jaguar would perform is the very clear difference in attitude when confronted with obstacles that these 2 cats display.
Now even though there isn’t much jaguar-bear interaction for us to compare cougar-bear interactions to (seeing that jaguars don’t really coexist with bears, the only bears they actually share their geographical range with being the spectacled bear, and even then there is almost no information on any interspecific relationships between the 2), there are other animals that both cats have had the opportunity of facing over their history, and they have put up different performances.
The best example to use is dogs. Cougars almost always run away when confronted by dogs, and they look for the nearest tree to scale. The jaguar also runs but I presume that like the leopard it would put up more of fighting than ‘’sitting in a tree.’’ I haven’t done any research into hunting jaguars with dogs, so anyone who has, please correct me if I’m wrong (I’m just assuming that based on what the leopard does, and it would only be silly to expect a jaguar to perform less than a leopard. If anything, it should perform better, but BARE MINIMUM, at the same level).
I have also read about things that could never possibly happen to jaguars happening to cougars. Things like a single coyote displacing a cougar off its kill just by howling (no physical fight ensued otherwise the coyote would be dead, duuuh), JUST howling. There are probably many other examples that can be given, but for time’s sake these ones should do.
I believe that by now it’s clear that the cougar has more of a ‘’sit in a tree or run away and evade problem’’ attitude while Mr. Jag has a ‘’I’ll first see how tough this guy is’’ attitude. We’re not talking about physical power or strength, it’s just the mental fortitude we’re talking about.
So, just know that even though I still stand on Jaguar > Cougar, this that I’m saying right here about jaguars being ‘’mentally stronger’’ isn’t proof of jaguars being physically stronger than cougars, as there are other animals much weaker than cougars that have stronger mental fortitude. Animals like the gripping dogs, badgers, other mustelids and so on.
Ultimately, these animals are weaker than cougars, but they’d run into situations that a cougar typically wouldn’t. Point is Jaguar > Cougar, but not because of mental fortitude. There are other reasons that make Jaguar > Cougar.
The reason for bringing this up is to show that the cougar’s reaction to black bears wouldn’t necessarily foretell the jaguar’s reaction.
You can expect a cougar to perform less than a jaguar in a big cat-bear face-off, but the reverse isn’t true because we know that on a tenacity scale, the jaguar leads the cougar. So, how do I think the jaguar does against black bears?
Well, we would have to be very specific about the nature of the confrontation. Let’s assume the jaguar is the same weight as the cougar that gets bullied by bears. Even though I stand on Jaguar is relative to Cougar at parity, I believe that this could play out substantially differently.
When the jaguar sees the bear approaching, it would almost certainly not ‘’pack its things and go away’’ but would instead make a stand to try and assess the situation. I do believe that the jaguar could make more physical contact with the bear, doing more paw swipes and overall being more aggressive.
It’s even possible that the sound of the jaguar’s deep roar could sound more intimidating than the cougar’s screams from the bear’s point of view seeing that in a way the roar kind of makes the jaguar seem more dangerous.
I don’t know, I may be wrong, I may be expecting too much from the jaguar, but I think a jaguar would leave a greater impression on a black bear than an equal-sized cougar would, that the jaguar would sound more threatening.
In truth, I could even say that if cougars were just to stand up a little more, if they could adopt a ‘’jaguar-like’’ posture, they might even be able to repel black bears more than they already do.
Not considerably more, obviously, but I think the lack of willingness to even try is what boosts the black bear’s confidence. The black bear already beholds the cougar with a contemptuous eye like Goliath and King Saul’s army.
Against a jaguar, the black bear might be in for a surprise, and considering that black bears haven’t had any real experience with true big cats (the ones that roar), I think there’s more truth to this theory.
Now if it’s a Pantanal jaguar, the story becomes different. I think a Pantanal jaguar should more often than not dominate an equal-sized black bear or even one slightly bigger than itself seeing that this is an animal that gets terrified of HOUSE CATS of all things!
The jaguar is also coming from a region where it is the apex predator and everything bows to its will, so the concept of it being subordinate to or being dominated by something wouldn’t sit well with it, and it’s something it’s inclined to protest against. And since it’s a black bear and not a grizzly we’re talking about, then I think the jaguar isn’t in for a nasty shock.
A male Pantanal jaguar should be able to deter a black bear trying to steal its kill most of the time, and the few times when it does lose its kill, it’s probably because the bear also has to win sometimes, or the jaguar was like ‘’guess I’ll just let this one go.’’
To wrap up, I think that if the jaguar was the same size as the cougar that would typically run away, the jaguar would stay around to try and either fight the bear off or if the bear proves persistent, stay around to try and ‘’bargain over the carcass’’ or ‘’come to an understanding.’’
I think with jaguars, you might see the sort of things that we don’t see with cougars, things like the jaguar convincing the bear to go look elsewhere, or if it becomes a prolonged protest, both animals settling down to eat at the same carcass (the way wolves and bears sometimes do) and just ignoring the other and growling and roaring at intervals.
Now if it’s a "to the death interaction", I’m not so sure and I’ll just let you guys talk about what you think would happen. But I think jaguars might stalk and kill similar-sized or slightly larger black bears, evidenced by that popular El Jefe case.
Basically, I think jaguars would be a greater challenge for the black bear than what cougars are.
But in a fight to the death, both animals at their respective zeniths, it’s only reasonable to say that Ursus americanus > Panthera onca. A fat bear like the one in the picture above should take the W over a jaguar.
Grey Wolf
This one is somewhat straightforward. Cougar-sized jaguars would definitely have difficulty against a wolf pack and would be wise to run away. In this one, I don’t believe a jaguar would perform any better than an equal-sized cougar would except that it may do more bluffing and wait a little while before treeing. But if it was a fight over carcass, the typical wolf pack that chases away a cougar should do the same to a jaguar.
Wolves would be a pain in the neck for Mexican jaguars, the cats would even get killed sometimes too. And needless to say, small 36 kg female jaguars are in for HELL!
Pantanal jaguars would definitely be a very different story for wolves. I once heard a narrator in a Nat Geo Wild documentary say something like ‘’a lioness can keep 4 hyenas at bay at a time.’’
This would definitely have implications for a cat approaching lioness size against pack animals substantially weaker than hyenas and that have weaker jaws. I think that even a female Pantanal jaguar could fend off multiple wolves (maybe 4 or 5) at a time.
As for a male, I think the best way to know what would happen is to ask ‘’how would a lioness fare against a wolf pack?’’ Do you think a wolf pack would more often than not triumph against a lioness in a fight over food?
Uhhhm, I’ll take ‘’no’’ for an answer. I expect a male Pantanal jaguar to bully a wolf pack quite easily. They might not even hang around as much as they would if it were a grizzly.
But when we start talking about ridiculously large wolf packs, especially if the wolves are in a dire situation, then it becomes a numbers game, and we’ll have to throw the wolves a bone.
Grizzly Bear
Now this is bad news for the jaguar. Jaguars the same size as the cougars that these bears chase away MIGHT put up slightly better performances. Even Pantanal jaguars would become humbler and more cautious. I don’t think we should be talking about Mexican jaguars if we want to make any case for the jaguar here.
I could favour a big male Pantanal jaguar over a female grizzly bear roughly its own size in a food dispute certainly, in an ambush (even one noticeably larger than itself) and maybe in a ‘’chase away your opponent’’ fight.
A jaguar (even Mexican) could repel even a male grizzly bear in a food dispute particularly if the bear is half-hearted or just chooses to have grace (there are videos of cougars doing it).
But if we’re talking the Alaskan or God forbid the Kodiak bears, then brown bear slams. But inland bears (particularly females) can’t just push male Pantanal jaguars around in food disputes.
Now let’s talk about the prey items:
Elk
Cougar-sized jaguars should be the same as cougars in spotted coats in terms of their experience with elk. Cow elk would be taken just as easily as a cougar would, and bull elk would pose just as much threat to jaguars of this size. A bull elk could definitely kill a 40 to 50 kilo jaguar.
Pantanal jaguars should prey on bull elk more heavily and be at less risk of being killed.
Moose
Pantanal jaguars of either gender should thrive well on female moose and the large males would spell bad news for the bulls, though male Pantanal jaguars can still be killed.
Since we have instances of even juvenile, not yet mature female tigers killing bull moose in Russia: amur-tiger.ru/ru/press_center/news/1416/ (Credit to Mountain Lord), then it’s perfectly reasonable to expect male jaguars of similar size to be able to make bull moose a fairly regular prey item.
American Bison
The ultimate challenge the jaguar could face in the USA, the bison. I definitely believe a jag could kill a bison if I believe a cougar could. Still the same range I specify for the cougar: 5 to 7 times its own mass.
Since, Pantanal jags can weigh up to 150 kg, then HYPOTHETICALLY, a jaguar should be able to kill a 750-1050 kg bison.
I know it sounds ridiculous, a jaguar killing a bison over a tonne, but remember that tigresses of comparable size have done the same to gaurs over a tonne (posted it in my last Quora answer), and many people here still hold on to ‘’the jag is the strongest cat pound for pound’’, all the more reason it should sound reasonable. If they did prey on bison, obviously, they should prey on females more often.
I don’t expect skull bites to work on bison because of the cattle beast’s incredibly thick skull. Somehow, jaguars would have to get used to throat bites more often, when attacking bison.
They could also target the spine in order to snap it. I know the bison has a hump, but I’m not sure of how much help that will be.
To be honest, jaguars CAN kill bison, but I don’t think they would do so regularly for the same reasons that cougars don’t.
Don’t ask me what the reason is, go and read my Quora answer if you wish to know.
American Alligator
They're bigger than caimans and more dangerous, but given that we have some cases of cougars killing alligators in Florida, then obviously jaguars most definitely can kill them.
I think jaguars would quickly learn to kill them but would know not to engage in a battle in water as there they'd fare much better than a caiman would and would most likely kill the jaguar.
Conclusion
North America would be significantly tougher for jaguars than South America is because in North America, they have been stripped of the "Apex Predator Status" and now have predators that could pose a threat to them and to the prey they kill.
Grey wolves, black bears and grizzlies, even though they may not always dominate jaguars in a head-on contest, would still prove burdensome for them.
They are scavengers, and when the jaguar is away they can dig up its kills and consume them, causing life to be harder for it.
What does everyone else think? Any contradicting ideas? Hardcastle , Bolushi , CoolJohnson , @ling , Wyatt , Methane , ophio , Musth
...this guy is dropped...
...here?
In the ‘’Cougar vs Jaguar thread’’, I asked a question about how we thought jaguars would relate with the animals in North America if we replaced cougars with them, but I didn’t get much response regarding that, so we have this thread today. Let’s start:
American Black Bear
Now this is tricky but is probably one of the easier things to handle. How do you think the jaguar would interact with black bears? This question wouldn’t be so much of a pain in the neck if we had some insight into how they relate with the spectacled bears down in their home in South America.
Sadly, we do not, there is very little information regarding jaguar-spectacled bear relationships. If there was a substantial amount of information on any relationships between the feline and the ursine, it wouldn’t NECESSARILY be indicative of the experience the big cat would have up north, but it would give some kind of clue, some kind of ‘’educated guess.’’
Obviously, we can’t count on it as a predictor of what the jaguar would face because of the fact that there might (or should or would) be differences in temperament, aggression and overall attitude between a spectacled bear and an ABB. One might have an approach that is better at facing or seeing off a big cat than the other. That’s why any hypothetical jaguar-spectacled bear relationships still wouldn’t be 100% reliable.
But the thing is we don’t even have that, so we’re left in the dark to use our discretion and maybe the black bear’s relationship with cougars??
But here’s the problem with cougars. Many times, when black bears (or bears in general) show up, they don’t even bother staying around to protest, they don’t even make any attempt to deter the bear, no hissing, no growling. They just pack their things and leave.
This isn’t what happens EVERY TIME though; they sometimes stand their ground, hissing and growling and even swiping paws at the bear and using their remarkable agileness to stay out of the bear’s retaliations as evidenced by videos on YouTube. But the general rule remains: ‘’see bear and make a run for it.’’
The problem I see with using this as a judge for how the jaguar would perform is the very clear difference in attitude when confronted with obstacles that these 2 cats display.
Now even though there isn’t much jaguar-bear interaction for us to compare cougar-bear interactions to (seeing that jaguars don’t really coexist with bears, the only bears they actually share their geographical range with being the spectacled bear, and even then there is almost no information on any interspecific relationships between the 2), there are other animals that both cats have had the opportunity of facing over their history, and they have put up different performances.
The best example to use is dogs. Cougars almost always run away when confronted by dogs, and they look for the nearest tree to scale. The jaguar also runs but I presume that like the leopard it would put up more of fighting than ‘’sitting in a tree.’’ I haven’t done any research into hunting jaguars with dogs, so anyone who has, please correct me if I’m wrong (I’m just assuming that based on what the leopard does, and it would only be silly to expect a jaguar to perform less than a leopard. If anything, it should perform better, but BARE MINIMUM, at the same level).
I have also read about things that could never possibly happen to jaguars happening to cougars. Things like a single coyote displacing a cougar off its kill just by howling (no physical fight ensued otherwise the coyote would be dead, duuuh), JUST howling. There are probably many other examples that can be given, but for time’s sake these ones should do.
I believe that by now it’s clear that the cougar has more of a ‘’sit in a tree or run away and evade problem’’ attitude while Mr. Jag has a ‘’I’ll first see how tough this guy is’’ attitude. We’re not talking about physical power or strength, it’s just the mental fortitude we’re talking about.
So, just know that even though I still stand on Jaguar > Cougar, this that I’m saying right here about jaguars being ‘’mentally stronger’’ isn’t proof of jaguars being physically stronger than cougars, as there are other animals much weaker than cougars that have stronger mental fortitude. Animals like the gripping dogs, badgers, other mustelids and so on.
Ultimately, these animals are weaker than cougars, but they’d run into situations that a cougar typically wouldn’t. Point is Jaguar > Cougar, but not because of mental fortitude. There are other reasons that make Jaguar > Cougar.
The reason for bringing this up is to show that the cougar’s reaction to black bears wouldn’t necessarily foretell the jaguar’s reaction.
You can expect a cougar to perform less than a jaguar in a big cat-bear face-off, but the reverse isn’t true because we know that on a tenacity scale, the jaguar leads the cougar. So, how do I think the jaguar does against black bears?
Well, we would have to be very specific about the nature of the confrontation. Let’s assume the jaguar is the same weight as the cougar that gets bullied by bears. Even though I stand on Jaguar is relative to Cougar at parity, I believe that this could play out substantially differently.
When the jaguar sees the bear approaching, it would almost certainly not ‘’pack its things and go away’’ but would instead make a stand to try and assess the situation. I do believe that the jaguar could make more physical contact with the bear, doing more paw swipes and overall being more aggressive.
It’s even possible that the sound of the jaguar’s deep roar could sound more intimidating than the cougar’s screams from the bear’s point of view seeing that in a way the roar kind of makes the jaguar seem more dangerous.
I don’t know, I may be wrong, I may be expecting too much from the jaguar, but I think a jaguar would leave a greater impression on a black bear than an equal-sized cougar would, that the jaguar would sound more threatening.
In truth, I could even say that if cougars were just to stand up a little more, if they could adopt a ‘’jaguar-like’’ posture, they might even be able to repel black bears more than they already do.
Not considerably more, obviously, but I think the lack of willingness to even try is what boosts the black bear’s confidence. The black bear already beholds the cougar with a contemptuous eye like Goliath and King Saul’s army.
Against a jaguar, the black bear might be in for a surprise, and considering that black bears haven’t had any real experience with true big cats (the ones that roar), I think there’s more truth to this theory.
Now if it’s a Pantanal jaguar, the story becomes different. I think a Pantanal jaguar should more often than not dominate an equal-sized black bear or even one slightly bigger than itself seeing that this is an animal that gets terrified of HOUSE CATS of all things!
The jaguar is also coming from a region where it is the apex predator and everything bows to its will, so the concept of it being subordinate to or being dominated by something wouldn’t sit well with it, and it’s something it’s inclined to protest against. And since it’s a black bear and not a grizzly we’re talking about, then I think the jaguar isn’t in for a nasty shock.
A male Pantanal jaguar should be able to deter a black bear trying to steal its kill most of the time, and the few times when it does lose its kill, it’s probably because the bear also has to win sometimes, or the jaguar was like ‘’guess I’ll just let this one go.’’
To wrap up, I think that if the jaguar was the same size as the cougar that would typically run away, the jaguar would stay around to try and either fight the bear off or if the bear proves persistent, stay around to try and ‘’bargain over the carcass’’ or ‘’come to an understanding.’’
I think with jaguars, you might see the sort of things that we don’t see with cougars, things like the jaguar convincing the bear to go look elsewhere, or if it becomes a prolonged protest, both animals settling down to eat at the same carcass (the way wolves and bears sometimes do) and just ignoring the other and growling and roaring at intervals.
Now if it’s a "to the death interaction", I’m not so sure and I’ll just let you guys talk about what you think would happen. But I think jaguars might stalk and kill similar-sized or slightly larger black bears, evidenced by that popular El Jefe case.
Basically, I think jaguars would be a greater challenge for the black bear than what cougars are.
But in a fight to the death, both animals at their respective zeniths, it’s only reasonable to say that Ursus americanus > Panthera onca. A fat bear like the one in the picture above should take the W over a jaguar.
Grey Wolf
This one is somewhat straightforward. Cougar-sized jaguars would definitely have difficulty against a wolf pack and would be wise to run away. In this one, I don’t believe a jaguar would perform any better than an equal-sized cougar would except that it may do more bluffing and wait a little while before treeing. But if it was a fight over carcass, the typical wolf pack that chases away a cougar should do the same to a jaguar.
Wolves would be a pain in the neck for Mexican jaguars, the cats would even get killed sometimes too. And needless to say, small 36 kg female jaguars are in for HELL!
Pantanal jaguars would definitely be a very different story for wolves. I once heard a narrator in a Nat Geo Wild documentary say something like ‘’a lioness can keep 4 hyenas at bay at a time.’’
This would definitely have implications for a cat approaching lioness size against pack animals substantially weaker than hyenas and that have weaker jaws. I think that even a female Pantanal jaguar could fend off multiple wolves (maybe 4 or 5) at a time.
As for a male, I think the best way to know what would happen is to ask ‘’how would a lioness fare against a wolf pack?’’ Do you think a wolf pack would more often than not triumph against a lioness in a fight over food?
Uhhhm, I’ll take ‘’no’’ for an answer. I expect a male Pantanal jaguar to bully a wolf pack quite easily. They might not even hang around as much as they would if it were a grizzly.
But when we start talking about ridiculously large wolf packs, especially if the wolves are in a dire situation, then it becomes a numbers game, and we’ll have to throw the wolves a bone.
Grizzly Bear
Now this is bad news for the jaguar. Jaguars the same size as the cougars that these bears chase away MIGHT put up slightly better performances. Even Pantanal jaguars would become humbler and more cautious. I don’t think we should be talking about Mexican jaguars if we want to make any case for the jaguar here.
I could favour a big male Pantanal jaguar over a female grizzly bear roughly its own size in a food dispute certainly, in an ambush (even one noticeably larger than itself) and maybe in a ‘’chase away your opponent’’ fight.
A jaguar (even Mexican) could repel even a male grizzly bear in a food dispute particularly if the bear is half-hearted or just chooses to have grace (there are videos of cougars doing it).
But if we’re talking the Alaskan or God forbid the Kodiak bears, then brown bear slams. But inland bears (particularly females) can’t just push male Pantanal jaguars around in food disputes.
Now let’s talk about the prey items:
Elk
Cougar-sized jaguars should be the same as cougars in spotted coats in terms of their experience with elk. Cow elk would be taken just as easily as a cougar would, and bull elk would pose just as much threat to jaguars of this size. A bull elk could definitely kill a 40 to 50 kilo jaguar.
Pantanal jaguars should prey on bull elk more heavily and be at less risk of being killed.
Moose
Pantanal jaguars of either gender should thrive well on female moose and the large males would spell bad news for the bulls, though male Pantanal jaguars can still be killed.
Since we have instances of even juvenile, not yet mature female tigers killing bull moose in Russia: amur-tiger.ru/ru/press_center/news/1416/ (Credit to Mountain Lord), then it’s perfectly reasonable to expect male jaguars of similar size to be able to make bull moose a fairly regular prey item.
American Bison
The ultimate challenge the jaguar could face in the USA, the bison. I definitely believe a jag could kill a bison if I believe a cougar could. Still the same range I specify for the cougar: 5 to 7 times its own mass.
Since, Pantanal jags can weigh up to 150 kg, then HYPOTHETICALLY, a jaguar should be able to kill a 750-1050 kg bison.
I know it sounds ridiculous, a jaguar killing a bison over a tonne, but remember that tigresses of comparable size have done the same to gaurs over a tonne (posted it in my last Quora answer), and many people here still hold on to ‘’the jag is the strongest cat pound for pound’’, all the more reason it should sound reasonable. If they did prey on bison, obviously, they should prey on females more often.
I don’t expect skull bites to work on bison because of the cattle beast’s incredibly thick skull. Somehow, jaguars would have to get used to throat bites more often, when attacking bison.
They could also target the spine in order to snap it. I know the bison has a hump, but I’m not sure of how much help that will be.
To be honest, jaguars CAN kill bison, but I don’t think they would do so regularly for the same reasons that cougars don’t.
Don’t ask me what the reason is, go and read my Quora answer if you wish to know.
American Alligator
They're bigger than caimans and more dangerous, but given that we have some cases of cougars killing alligators in Florida, then obviously jaguars most definitely can kill them.
I think jaguars would quickly learn to kill them but would know not to engage in a battle in water as there they'd fare much better than a caiman would and would most likely kill the jaguar.
Conclusion
North America would be significantly tougher for jaguars than South America is because in North America, they have been stripped of the "Apex Predator Status" and now have predators that could pose a threat to them and to the prey they kill.
Grey wolves, black bears and grizzlies, even though they may not always dominate jaguars in a head-on contest, would still prove burdensome for them.
They are scavengers, and when the jaguar is away they can dig up its kills and consume them, causing life to be harder for it.
What does everyone else think? Any contradicting ideas? Hardcastle , Bolushi , CoolJohnson , @ling , Wyatt , Methane , ophio , Musth
