Wolf v dog skull in relation to biting ability.

[Wyatt]

Jun 24, 2023 19:04:42 GMT Hardcastle said:

The gripping dog tendencies and abilities all have their root in natural wolf behaviour. Every aspect, including the "taking a beating and keep going" part, IS inherited from wolves.
But the same is true for scenthounds and the way they shirk at conflict and are cautious and avoid engaging. That caution and fear of engagement is from wolves too. Everything in dogs is from wolves, they are just a very balanced "gumbo" of all the dog traits. When they act like gripping dogs its either due to extreme desperation or because their target is severely compromised and vulnerable (possibly even strategically compromised by them over a long period of time).

As such I don't think the mackenzie valley wolf or any kind of wolf is closer to gripping dogs than it is to any other kind of dog. In fact where it's "meter" is for commiting to close-quarter engagement, I'd say ALL wolves are MUCH closer to coonhounds than they are to gripping dogs. They have a very heightened and strong sense of caution and self preservation and are very reluctant to throw themself head-long into a close quarter engagement with full unwavering commitment. They are very very very far away from gripping dogs in their nature and mental state. They do a gripping dog impression at very specific times and even then with very nerfed commitment that is very very ready to waver. For gripping dogs the lack of reluctance and the intensity and fullness of the unwavering commitment is everything. So at "being a gripping dog" the wolf is extremely low, very short of being even vaguely competent. It's willingness is low, and its commitment is low. Very very low. It's anatomy is poor for the task as well. Mentally and physically it is poorly adapted, and that makes sense. It has too much to do and it has a balance of inclinations suited to independent wild survival. Wild survival punishes gripping dog behaviour, the extreme willingness is stupid, and the unwavering committment possibly even stupider. Knowing when not to attack is huge, knowing when to give up is also huge. The answer to the first is "most of the time" and the answer to the second is "early and often". But those answers are huge "fails" for a gripping dog. So the wolf is miles away from a gripping dog, doesn't matter which kind.

Maybe so but i’d disagree that wolves are closer to coonhounds than gripping dogs in terms of what you’re talking about and thats stages.

And its actually kinda weird you mention this as I imagine you would say this. Not insulting just its your type of argument that I think would match this.

North American scenthounds are meant to basically give a way for hunters to get the perfect shot yet still have dogs.

I’ve seen a overly aggressive raccoon make a Treeing Walker start whining and running away with its tail behind its legs. A raccoon for fucks sake. A wolf would absolutely destroy a raccoon, regardless of how aggressive the raccoon is.

Yes, Coonhounds have a high sense of self-preservation, but they have that to the extreme to the point anything that fights back can’t be bothered with. 

A large bobcat can make them stand back and bay.

They bay for help anytime anything goes wrong because they know the human has the gun and can easily kill them.

The comparison is okay but it needs a lot of work. If I HAD to choose a scenthound they are closest to, maybe a Bluetick Coonhound, a Otterhound or Airedale. No Treeing Walker, Redticks or Redbones here.

[Hardcastle]

Bobcats and wolverines have also made wolves stand back and bay. Admittedly I haven't seen a racoon manage that feat, and I never intended to say wolves have a threshold for baying as low as coonhounds, but the simple fact they have a threshold down in such cautious territory makes them closER to coonhounds than they are to gripping dogs, who have a threshold up through the stratosphere. The gap in threshold between wolf and gripping dog is greater than the gap in threshold between wolf and coonhound. Coonhounds can bay on a raccoon sure, but they can also get emboldened enough to kill some pretty serious things if the circumstances are right for them (like deer and MAYBE even puma if a pack gets excited - I've heard murmurs of the odd case).
Wolves push that higher, and if circumstances are right for them they can even lug and kill musk ox, moose, boar and bison. So I get why one would at face value think they are like big-game gripping dogs, targetting similar game. To me the shrewd heightened measured caution still makes them unlike gripping dogs in a very big way. I don't disagree with you that a better analogue would be rougher dogs than coonhounds, I just said closER to coonhounds than gripping dogs. Really they are most like a cur, which is basically similar to a hunting spitz as well. They are rough, they will kill, they'll test to see if that is a feasible action, but still they are very very short of gripping dogs. If a hunter stupidly tried to use a wolf as a hunting dog... The cur guy would be the least disappointed, then the scenthound guy would be disappointed but not crazily disappointed. The gripping dog guy would be extremely disappointed. He would shoot it almost immediately.

[Wyatt]

Jun 24, 2023 20:03:42 GMT Hardcastle said:

Bobcats and wolverines have also made wolves stand back and bay. Admittedly I haven't seen a racoon manage that feat, and I never intended to say wolves have a threshold for baying as low as coonhounds, but the simple fact they have a threshold down in such cautious territory makes them closER to coonhounds than they are to gripping dogs, who have a threshold up through the stratosphere. The gap in threshold between wolf and gripping dog is greater than the gap in threshold between wolf and coonhound. Coonhounds can bay on a raccoon sure, but they can also get emboldened enough to kill some pretty serious things if the circumstances are right for them (like deer and MAYBE even puma if a pack gets excited - I've heard murmurs of the odd case).
Wolves push that higher, and if circumstances are right for them they can even lug and kill musk ox, moose, boar and bison. So I get why one would at face value think they are like big-game gripping dogs, targetting similar game. To me the shrewd heightened measured caution still makes them unlike gripping dogs in a very big way. I don't disagree with you that a better analogue would be rougher dogs than coonhounds, I just said closER to coonhounds than gripping dogs. Really they are most like a cur, which is basically similar to a hunting spitz as well. They are rough, they will kill, they'll test to see if that is a feasible action, but still they are very very short of gripping dogs. If a hunter stupidly tried to use a wolf as a hunting dog... The cur guy would be the least disappointed, then the scenthound guy would be disappointed but not crazily disappointed. The gripping dog guy would be extremely disappointed. He would shoot it almost immediately.

Question, is “baying deer” a thing and why is it a thing? I’ve seen a Catahoula bay a doe standing right there in the water.

[Hardcastle]

Yeah some dogs will bay on a deer, they don't believe in their ability to kill it in that moment. That's what baying boils down to. They aren't ready to commit to the close-quarter engagement because they think (subconsciously) they will fail to kill it and it will be a waste of energy and possibly hazardous and dangerous beyond what is reasonable. So they bay, baying is a way to stay with the deer and stay on it, not let it escape, but also not comitt to an attack. It can actually be employed for multiple purposes- to further wear down and weaken the deer, either through exhaustion or accumulating injury (baying can often be accompanied with nipping and slashing bites to blind spots- depending on how confident or not the baying dog is, it may not even be up for any nipping), but also a dog can be baying to distract and occupy the deer and keep it in one place while it is waiting for back up. Many many dogs switch from baying to lugging as soon as they get back up. Even many of the softest coonhounds (and this is why many coonhound guys HATE working with running catch dogs, because the running catch dog emboldens their coonhounds to lug, and then because they are bad at it they get injured).

This is how you know it's really about confidence. Belief in their own ability to actually physically overpower and subdue the target. Because even the softest bay dogs turn into luggers if they think they can win.

Many "bay dogs" will switch to luggers if the prey is small. Many bay dogs will lug juvenile pigs but start baying when they hit say 40 kgs and above, or something like that.

This is why wolves are like bay dogs to me, because they are fundamentally the same. They are cautious and standoffish until they see a reason to believe they will probably succeed in overpowering and ultimately killing the prey, THEN they will escalate the proceedings to an actual engagement. This could be thanks to their numbers and/or due to the vulnerability of the target, either through being injured, old, sick, young or whatever. They are measuring the vitality and resistance of the target, before committing, so they are "bay first".

A catch dog is lug first regardless of the target, it will use the fully-engaged grapple to drain the target of it's vitality. Wolves and bay dogs both measure the target first, and are very careful and strategic with who or what they actually commit to an attack on.

[Wyatt]

Jun 24, 2023 20:32:08 GMT Hardcastle said:

Yeah some dogs will bay on a deer, they don't believe in their ability to kill it in that moment. That's what baying boils down to. They aren't ready to commit to the close-quarter engagement because they think (subconsciously) they will fail to kill it and it will be a waste of energy and possibly hazardous and dangerous beyond what is reasonable. So they bay, baying is a way to stay with the deer and stay on it, not let it escape, but also not comitt to an attack. It can actually be employed for multiple purposes- to further wear down and weaken the deer, either through exhaustion or accumulating injury (baying can often be accompanied with nipping and slashing bites to blind spots- depending on how confident or not the baying dog is, it may not even be up for any nipping), but also a dog can be baying to distract and occupy the deer and keep it in one place while it is waiting for back up. Many many dogs switch from baying to lugging as soon as they get back up. Even many of the softest coonhounds (and this is why many coonhound guys HATE working with running catch dogs, because the running catch dog emboldens their coonhounds to lug, and then because they are bad at it they get injured).

This is how you know it's really about confidence. Belief in their own ability to actually physically overpower and subdue the target. Because even the softest bay dogs turn into luggers if they think they can win.

Many "bay dogs" will switch to luggers if the prey is small. Many bay dogs will lug juvenile pigs but start baying when they hit say 40 kgs and above, or something like that.

This is why wolves are like bay dogs to me, because they are fundamentally the same. They are cautious and standoffish until they see a reason to believe they will probably succeed in overpowering and ultimately killing the prey, THEN they will escalate the proceedings to an actual engagement. This could be thanks to their numbers and/or due to the vulnerability of the target, either through being injured, old, sick, young or whatever. They are measuring the vitality and resistance of the target, before committing, so they are "bay first".

A catch dog is lug first regardless of the target, it will use the fully-engaged grapple to drain the target of it's vitality. Wolves and bay dogs both measure the target first, and are very careful and strategic with who or what they actually commit to an attack on.

But a deer is an easy prey.

[Deleted]

Jun 24, 2023 20:32:08 GMT Hardcastle said:

Yeah some dogs will bay on a deer, they don't believe in their ability to kill it in that moment. That's what baying boils down to. They aren't ready to commit to the close-quarter engagement because they think (subconsciously) they will fail to kill it and it will be a waste of energy and possibly hazardous and dangerous beyond what is reasonable. So they bay, baying is a way to stay with the deer and stay on it, not let it escape, but also not comitt to an attack. It can actually be employed for multiple purposes- to further wear down and weaken the deer, either through exhaustion or accumulating injury (baying can often be accompanied with nipping and slashing bites to blind spots- depending on how confident or not the baying dog is, it may not even be up for any nipping), but also a dog can be baying to distract and occupy the deer and keep it in one place while it is waiting for back up. Many many dogs switch from baying to lugging as soon as they get back up. Even many of the softest coonhounds (and this is why many coonhound guys HATE working with running catch dogs, because the running catch dog emboldens their coonhounds to lug, and then because they are bad at it they get injured).

This is how you know it's really about confidence. Belief in their own ability to actually physically overpower and subdue the target. Because even the softest bay dogs turn into luggers if they think they can win.

Many "bay dogs" will switch to luggers if the prey is small. Many bay dogs will lug juvenile pigs but start baying when they hit say 40 kgs and above, or something like that.

This is why wolves are like bay dogs to me, because they are fundamentally the same. They are cautious and standoffish until they see a reason to believe they will probably succeed in overpowering and ultimately killing the prey, THEN they will escalate the proceedings to an actual engagement. This could be thanks to their numbers and/or due to the vulnerability of the target, either through being injured, old, sick, young or whatever. They are measuring the vitality and resistance of the target, before committing, so they are "bay first".

A catch dog is lug first regardless of the target, it will use the fully-engaged grapple to drain the target of it's vitality. Wolves and bay dogs both measure the target first, and are very careful and strategic with who or what they actually commit to an attack on.

Is this a Himalayan Sheepdog?

[Hardcastle]

Jun 24, 2023 20:37:27 GMT Wyatt said:

Jun 24, 2023 20:32:08 GMT Hardcastle said:

Yeah some dogs will bay on a deer, they don't believe in their ability to kill it in that moment. That's what baying boils down to. They aren't ready to commit to the close-quarter engagement because they think (subconsciously) they will fail to kill it and it will be a waste of energy and possibly hazardous and dangerous beyond what is reasonable. So they bay, baying is a way to stay with the deer and stay on it, not let it escape, but also not comitt to an attack. It can actually be employed for multiple purposes- to further wear down and weaken the deer, either through exhaustion or accumulating injury (baying can often be accompanied with nipping and slashing bites to blind spots- depending on how confident or not the baying dog is, it may not even be up for any nipping), but also a dog can be baying to distract and occupy the deer and keep it in one place while it is waiting for back up. Many many dogs switch from baying to lugging as soon as they get back up. Even many of the softest coonhounds (and this is why many coonhound guys HATE working with running catch dogs, because the running catch dog emboldens their coonhounds to lug, and then because they are bad at it they get injured).

This is how you know it's really about confidence. Belief in their own ability to actually physically overpower and subdue the target. Because even the softest bay dogs turn into luggers if they think they can win.

Many "bay dogs" will switch to luggers if the prey is small. Many bay dogs will lug juvenile pigs but start baying when they hit say 40 kgs and above, or something like that.

This is why wolves are like bay dogs to me, because they are fundamentally the same. They are cautious and standoffish until they see a reason to believe they will probably succeed in overpowering and ultimately killing the prey, THEN they will escalate the proceedings to an actual engagement. This could be thanks to their numbers and/or due to the vulnerability of the target, either through being injured, old, sick, young or whatever. They are measuring the vitality and resistance of the target, before committing, so they are "bay first".

A catch dog is lug first regardless of the target, it will use the fully-engaged grapple to drain the target of it's vitality. Wolves and bay dogs both measure the target first, and are very careful and strategic with who or what they actually commit to an attack on.

But a deer is an easy prey.

Yeah its pretty easy, but cautious dogs are unsure of themselves, that's how the "smart caution" is encouraged in predators, it makes them have pangs of doubt in their ability unless they have all the odds stacked in their favour. This keeps injuries and unnecessary wastage of energy and etc to a minimum, but yes also makes them look like bitches sometimes.

[Hardcastle]

Jun 24, 2023 20:37:57 GMT @ling said:

Jun 24, 2023 20:32:08 GMT Hardcastle said:

Yeah some dogs will bay on a deer, they don't believe in their ability to kill it in that moment. That's what baying boils down to. They aren't ready to commit to the close-quarter engagement because they think (subconsciously) they will fail to kill it and it will be a waste of energy and possibly hazardous and dangerous beyond what is reasonable. So they bay, baying is a way to stay with the deer and stay on it, not let it escape, but also not comitt to an attack. It can actually be employed for multiple purposes- to further wear down and weaken the deer, either through exhaustion or accumulating injury (baying can often be accompanied with nipping and slashing bites to blind spots- depending on how confident or not the baying dog is, it may not even be up for any nipping), but also a dog can be baying to distract and occupy the deer and keep it in one place while it is waiting for back up. Many many dogs switch from baying to lugging as soon as they get back up. Even many of the softest coonhounds (and this is why many coonhound guys HATE working with running catch dogs, because the running catch dog emboldens their coonhounds to lug, and then because they are bad at it they get injured).

This is how you know it's really about confidence. Belief in their own ability to actually physically overpower and subdue the target. Because even the softest bay dogs turn into luggers if they think they can win.

Many "bay dogs" will switch to luggers if the prey is small. Many bay dogs will lug juvenile pigs but start baying when they hit say 40 kgs and above, or something like that.

This is why wolves are like bay dogs to me, because they are fundamentally the same. They are cautious and standoffish until they see a reason to believe they will probably succeed in overpowering and ultimately killing the prey, THEN they will escalate the proceedings to an actual engagement. This could be thanks to their numbers and/or due to the vulnerability of the target, either through being injured, old, sick, young or whatever. They are measuring the vitality and resistance of the target, before committing, so they are "bay first".

A catch dog is lug first regardless of the target, it will use the fully-engaged grapple to drain the target of it's vitality. Wolves and bay dogs both measure the target first, and are very careful and strategic with who or what they actually commit to an attack on.

Is this a Himalayan Sheepdog?

Messaged you, but yeah "himalayan sheepdog" is probably the correct terminology for someone who speaks english. It's not really a breed, but the "tibetan mastiff" breed pays homage to it.

[Deleted]

Jun 24, 2023 20:41:50 GMT Hardcastle said:

Jun 24, 2023 20:37:57 GMT @ling said:

Is this a Himalayan Sheepdog?

Messaged you, but yeah "himalayan sheepdog" is probably the correct terminology for someone who speaks english. It's not really a breed, but the "tibetan mastiff" breed pays homage to it.

Is the Himalayan Sheepdog (aka Gaddi Kutta) not just a very close relative to the Tibetan Mastiff? That's what Desmond Morris (zoologist) and Wikipedia says.

Also I may be wrong, but they seem to generally have a shorter coat and are slightly smaller.

[Deleted]

Jun 24, 2023 20:49:39 GMT @ling said:

Jun 24, 2023 20:41:50 GMT Hardcastle said:

Messaged you, but yeah "himalayan sheepdog" is probably the correct terminology for someone who speaks english. It's not really a breed, but the "tibetan mastiff" breed pays homage to it.

Is the Himalayan Sheepdog (aka Gaddi Kutta) not just a very close relative to the Tibetan Mastiff? That's what Desmond Morris (zoologist) and Wikipedia says.

Also I may be wrong, but they seem to generally have a shorter coat and are slightly smaller.

Or is "Himalayan Sheepdog" just used to represent any specific guardian dog that fits this suite? If so does that mean that the Gaddi Kutta is an individual breed?

[Deleted]

It looks identical to this individual:

[Bolushi]

Jun 24, 2023 20:52:41 GMT @ling said:

Jun 24, 2023 20:49:39 GMT @ling said:

Is the Himalayan Sheepdog (aka Gaddi Kutta) not just a very close relative to the Tibetan Mastiff? That's what Desmond Morris (zoologist) and Wikipedia says.

Also I may be wrong, but they seem to generally have a shorter coat and are slightly smaller.

Or is "Himalayan Sheepdog" just used to represent any specific guardian dog that fits this suite? If so does that mean that the Gaddi Kutta is an individual breed?

All Gaddi Kuttas are Himalayan Sheepdogs but not all Himalayan Sheepdogs are Gaddi Kuttas.

[Wyatt]

Jun 24, 2023 20:03:42 GMT Hardcastle said:

Bobcats and wolverines have also made wolves stand back and bay. Admittedly I haven't seen a racoon manage that feat, and I never intended to say wolves have a threshold for baying as low as coonhounds, but the simple fact they have a threshold down in such cautious territory makes them closER to coonhounds than they are to gripping dogs, who have a threshold up through the stratosphere. The gap in threshold between wolf and gripping dog is greater than the gap in threshold between wolf and coonhound. Coonhounds can bay on a raccoon sure, but they can also get emboldened enough to kill some pretty serious things if the circumstances are right for them (like deer and MAYBE even puma if a pack gets excited - I've heard murmurs of the odd case).
Wolves push that higher, and if circumstances are right for them they can even lug and kill musk ox, moose, boar and bison. So I get why one would at face value think they are like big-game gripping dogs, targetting similar game. To me the shrewd heightened measured caution still makes them unlike gripping dogs in a very big way. I don't disagree with you that a better analogue would be rougher dogs than coonhounds, I just said closER to coonhounds than gripping dogs. Really they are most like a cur, which is basically similar to a hunting spitz as well. They are rough, they will kill, they'll test to see if that is a feasible action, but still they are very very short of gripping dogs. If a hunter stupidly tried to use a wolf as a hunting dog... The cur guy would be the least disappointed, then the scenthound guy would be disappointed but not crazily disappointed. The gripping dog guy would be extremely disappointed. He would shoot it almost immediately.

Didn’t you agree that wolves are more comparable to herding dogs? 

Anyway, I always argued that gripping dogs could survive in the wild simply because of the fact that subjugation is a valuable trait in both wolves and dogs. So if a gripping dog somewhere did join a feral dog pack it could actually be beneficial.

Scenthounds is less because of hunting. Its more it’d take a while to get rid of the loud pitch baying they are bred for. Loud pitch baying has many downsides, in fact this is why many times scenthound guys need to check where they are sending their dogs. Wolves have ACTUALLY responded to the loud pitched bays of a scenthound pack, and this is a large majority of incidents, especially in bear country. 

[Wyatt]

Jun 24, 2023 21:19:25 GMT Bolushi said:

Jun 24, 2023 20:52:41 GMT @ling said:

Or is "Himalayan Sheepdog" just used to represent any specific guardian dog that fits this suite? If so does that mean that the Gaddi Kutta is an individual breed?

All Gaddi Kuttas are Himalayan Sheepdogs but not all Himalayan Sheepdogs are Gaddi Kuttas.

Sheepdog makes it sound like a herding dog. A Tibetan Mastiff or Himalayan Sheepdog is a LGD that free-roams, which makes it a useless LGD to begin with. More so just a free-ranging farmers dog.

[Bolushi]

Jun 24, 2023 21:24:57 GMT Wyatt said:

Jun 24, 2023 21:19:25 GMT Bolushi said:

All Gaddi Kuttas are Himalayan Sheepdogs but not all Himalayan Sheepdogs are Gaddi Kuttas.

Sheepdog makes it sound like a herding dog. A Tibetan Mastiff or Himalayan Sheepdog is a LGD that free-roams, which makes it a useless LGD to begin with. More so just a free-ranging farmers dog.

Not really? Explain?