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Post by lycaon on Jun 13, 2023 4:57:32 GMT
This is a quick post I'm throwing together so it's not refined. I'm sure many of us have heard about the legendary bite of wolves compared to dogs, from random scientific articles to historic texts like accounts from Roosevelt, the wolf is known for that singular and deep bite. Many of us simply accounted for size of the skull, but we all known that giant livestock guardian dogs fail to deliver on that end and fewer of us went deeper and observed the more developed sagittal crests which houses the muscles for the killing bite (which is not highly developed in gripping dogs who rely more on the powerful muscles in the zygomatic arches for a prolonged sustained grip). Now the latter is more on the nose for why I think wolves can bite harder at the canines, but there is something I haven't seen people discuss, which is the excessive bone in the foreheads of domestic dogs. Honestly, I have no idea why domestic dogs have such large and massive forehead bones, but it's clear they take up space that would normally allow for more muscle tissue. So not only do wolves have a larger attachment site for the temporalis muscles, they actually are able to house additional space for them due to less forehead bone. And yes the filled in areas I drew aren't great as I just made it with my phone. So instead of focusing on the "muscles" and focus on how much the bone of the forehead takes away. On the bottom I threw in a skinned wolf head and a skull, despite the skull looking rather elegant compared to dog skulls, when you add muscles, the head looks block like in shape.  |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jun 13, 2023 5:15:02 GMT
Interesting. Haven't noticed that before and it is a rather stark difference. It could be related to the fact dogs have evolved new muscles in their face to make facial expressions that humans can read.
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Post by Bolushi on Jun 13, 2023 5:17:08 GMT
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Post by Bolushi on Jun 13, 2023 5:17:32 GMT
Interesting. Haven't noticed that before and it is a rather stark difference. It could be related to the fact dogs have evolved new muscles in their face to make facial expressions that humans can read. I thought of that too but didn't post it. If I knew you were going to I would've done it first to spite you. Asshole... |
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Post by Bolushi on Jun 13, 2023 5:22:35 GMT
With this new data it makes me wonder why wolves can't just easily chomp each other's delicate bodies apart. These 2 wolves seem to be evenly matched but you'd think there would be more damage and the fight would end relatively quickly. I know with 2 equally matched opponents neither would kill the other for a fair bit of time usually but 2 wolves should just shred each other terribly. These 2 wolves... a vicious bloody fight but not what I would expect since I've seen worse with 2 durable fighting dogs.   |
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Post by lycaon on Jun 13, 2023 5:39:08 GMT
With this new data it makes me wonder why wolves can't just easily chomp each other's delicate bodies apart. These 2 wolves seem to be evenly matched but you'd think there would be more damage and the fight would end relatively quickly. I know with 2 equally matched opponents neither would kill the other for a fair bit of time usually but 2 wolves should just shred each other terribly. These 2 wolves... a vicious bloody fight but not what I would expect since I've seen worse with 2 durable fighting dogs. I believe that these two animals knew each other and were in some kind of large exhibit/enclosure; and there were likely still some unwritten rules that they're adhering to despite the bloody affair. Canines are rather polite when they do fight amongst themselves, hence all those various displays and vocalizations when they communicate. Dogs have thicker skin than wolves but thick double coated fur is a huge protective barrier, my time skinning and tanning hides were my firsthand experience. So likely this was more of a dispute than two animals really going at it in a life or death instance, but wolves being wolves were able to still make a rather decent puncture in the moment. |
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Post by lycaon on Jun 13, 2023 5:53:06 GMT
Interesting. Haven't noticed that before and it is a rather stark difference. It could be related to the fact dogs have evolved new muscles in their face to make facial expressions that humans can read. Seems like a reasonable deduction, most people are drawn to the types of dogs with those pronounced foreheads and circular eye shapes. Now regardless of function, to me it does come at the cost of less room for the temporalis muscles. Likely this is one of the functional reasons as to why wolves can bite down so hard at the canine teeth. What does do have over wolves is sustained bites with their whole mouth, once the carnassials are involved. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jun 13, 2023 6:08:38 GMT
Interesting. Haven't noticed that before and it is a rather stark difference. It could be related to the fact dogs have evolved new muscles in their face to make facial expressions that humans can read. Seems like a reasonable deduction, most people are drawn to the types of dogs with those pronounced foreheads and circular eye shapes. Now regardless of function, to me it does come at the cost of less room for the temporalis muscles. Likely this is one of the functional reasons as to why wolves can bite down so hard at the canine teeth. What does do have over wolves is sustained bites with their whole mouth, once the carnassials are involved. Yes. I have observed that wolves do genuinely seem to have more of a punishing/damaging "snap" than it seems ALL dogs. And it is rare for me to concede wolves are "more"/"better" in any department compared to ALL dogs, BUT that does seem to be the case with specifically a defensive snapping bite. Funnily enough, the dog which I think has the best snapping bite is actually the german shepherd, and the curious thing about that is they ALSO are bad at facial expressions. I really quite dislike and feel uneasy around german shepherds because they look at you with a dead face where you can't tell what they are thinking. Frankly similar to wolves. They also do bite really hard in a sudden snappy way. The combination of being unreadable and having that "trapdoor" snapping bite makes be more hesitant to consider petting a german shepherd than any other kind of dog; pitbulls, giant mastiffs and LGDs, you name it. GSDs intimidate me much more than all the others. It would be interesting if those 2 things- the snapping and the lack of facial expression, were physically connected. |
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Wyatt
Ruminant
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Post by Wyatt on Jun 13, 2023 7:19:40 GMT
Well i’d think a Northwestern or Mackenzie Valley Wolf would be probably the closest thing we can try to compare to gripping dogs. When it gets into LGD’s though, thats a big maybe. I’d imagine the wolf would be biting harder. And both are probably slow and not as evasive as the rest of the wolf species. CAS especially. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jun 13, 2023 7:37:16 GMT
Yes. I have observed that wolves do genuinely seem to have more of a punishing/damaging "snap" than it seems ALL dogs. And it is rare for me to concede wolves are "more"/"better" in any department compared to ALL dogs, BUT that does seem to be the case with specifically a defensive snapping bite. Funnily enough, the dog which I think has the best snapping bite is actually the german shepherd, and the curious thing about that is they ALSO are bad at facial expressions. I really quite dislike and feel uneasy around german shepherds because they look at you with a dead face where you can't tell what they are thinking. Frankly similar to wolves. They also do bite really hard in a sudden snappy way. The combination of being unreadable and having that "trapdoor" snapping bite makes be more hesitant to consider petting a german shepherd than any other kind of dog; pitbulls, giant mastiffs and LGDs, you name it. GSDs intimidate me much more than all the others. It would be interesting if those 2 things- the snapping and the lack of facial expression, were physically connected. Do you think Border Collies are comparable here? Even though everyone loves them. For example, with GSDS they have the reputation of the wolf for sure. Mainly because they were used to take down humans for multiple purposes. So now they have that instinct in them. Hell, i’ve even said “imagine a gsd biting you” and everyone goes and gets superstitious. Border collies have very expressive faces and are easy to read, IMO. They do actually employ defensive snaps, but I can't imagine they are able to put much oomph into them (even though my bull arab's head is riddled with scars from such snaps - my other dog being close enough to a border collie, probably kelpie x BC) |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jun 13, 2023 7:40:42 GMT
Well i’d think a Northwestern or Mackenzie Valley Wolf would be probably the closest thing we can try to compare to gripping dogs. I don't agree with this. I think I know where this is coming from - the observation that these wolves can sometimes have a "gripping dog" roleplayer in the pack, but I think that's just as true for other wolves and I also don't think any wolves have any actual physiological adaptation for gripping specialisation. They're all still all alrounders by design. Some might do the job, but there's no allowance for evolutionary adaptation in that direction. For that you'd need wolves that don't need to do anything else. It's not like that, its a very informal "job" some casually slip into later in life owing only to their size, no gripper specialisation beyond that. |
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Wyatt
Ruminant
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Post by Wyatt on Jun 13, 2023 7:41:42 GMT
Well i’d think a Northwestern or Mackenzie Valley Wolf would be probably the closest thing we can try to compare to gripping dogs. I don't agree with this. I think I know where this is coming from - the observation that these wolves can sometimes have a "gripping dog" roleplayer in the pack, but I think that's just as true for other wolves and I also don't think any wolves have any actual physiological adaptation for gripping specialisation. They're all still all alrounders by design. Some might do the job, but there's no allowance for evolutionary adaptation in that direction. For that you'd need wolves that don't need to do anything else. It's not like that, its a very informal "job" some casually slip into later in life owing only to their size, no gripper specialisation beyond that. Thats why I said “closest” The least thing we can compare to a gripping dog is an Indian wolf. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2023 7:44:17 GMT
Well i’d think a Northwestern or Mackenzie Valley Wolf would be probably the closest thing we can try to compare to gripping dogs. I don't agree with this. I think I know where this is coming from - the observation that these wolves can sometimes have a "gripping dog" roleplayer in the pack, but I think that's just as true for other wolves and I also don't think any wolves have any actual physiological adaptation for gripping specialisation. They're all still all alrounders by design. Some might do the job, but there's no allowance for evolutionary adaptation in that direction. For that you'd need wolves that don't need to do anything else. It's not like that, its a very informal "job" some casually slip into later in life owing only to their size, no gripper specialisation beyond that. Wolves have crushing jaws, not gripping jaws. Dingoes (Canis lupus) often cause invisible internal injuries in intraspecific conflict. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2023 7:45:44 GMT
Well i’d think a Northwestern or Mackenzie Valley Wolf would be probably the closest thing we can try to compare to gripping dogs. I don't agree with this. I think I know where this is coming from - the observation that these wolves can sometimes have a "gripping dog" roleplayer in the pack, but I think that's just as true for other wolves and I also don't think any wolves have any actual physiological adaptation for gripping specialisation. They're all still all alrounders by design. Some might do the job, but there's no allowance for evolutionary adaptation in that direction. For that you'd need wolves that don't need to do anything else. It's not like that, its a very informal "job" some casually slip into later in life owing only to their size, no gripper specialisation beyond that. Grippers don’t need to be big and sizeable. A 30 lb pit Bull can own a 1300 lb bull. Except for maybe the very largest Belgian blues. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2023 7:53:13 GMT
Do you think Border Collies are comparable here? Even though everyone loves them. For example, with GSDS they have the reputation of the wolf for sure. Mainly because they were used to take down humans for multiple purposes. So now they have that instinct in them. Hell, i’ve even said “imagine a gsd biting you” and everyone goes and gets superstitious. Border collies have very expressive faces and are easy to read, IMO. They do actually employ defensive snaps, but I can't imagine they are able to put much oomph into them (even though my bull arab's head is riddled with scars from such snaps - my other dog being close enough to a border collie, probably kelpie x BC) The defensive snapping bite is true. See below. ”Also, it [ Daphoenodon] likely made quick, shallow, but powerful bites.” Hunt Jr, R. M. (2009). Long-legged pursuit carnivorans (Amphicyonidae, Daphoeninae) from the early Miocene of North America. Bulletin of the American Museum of Natural History, 2009(318), 1-95. “This configuration allows the incisors of canids to help the canines inflict shallow, slashing wounds in prey.” www.google.com/books/edition/Mammal_Teeth/BGGTYS2AgncC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=canids+shallow+slashing+bites&pg=PA41&printsec=frontcover |
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