Bear hunting with catch dogs?

[Deleted]

Perhaps some hound guys have catch dogs too?

[Deleted]

@hardcastle
Was expecting you to comment on this thread.

[Hardcastle]

Me too... forgot to get around to it.
Yeah so it seems historically catch dogs and bears went hand in hand, and catch dog usage on bears was even still pretty common in the 20th century.
Even though it's a fictional movie, and the bear itself is likely a captive "animal actor", the dogs in this scene from the Yearling (1946) I'm sure are a real bear hunting team-

It would just be the most practical way to source dogs for such a scene, and they seem to known what they are doing. When filmmakers wanted a scene where a wild animal is hunted by dogs they would find a guy who hunts said animal with dogs and employ his services.
It's no different really to the dog team used to capture the jaguar in this film-

The jaguar might be a captive jaguar and it might be staged (I strongly suspect so), the dogs however think it's real and really are clearly big cat hunting dogs (maybe normally mountain lion hunters). They've got in contact with a guy who hunts big cats with dogs and to make their video so even though it may not be a real hunt, it shows you how a real hunt works fairly faithfully.

The bear video is more chopped and edited and I think that's specifically to tell the story of it getting away, it wouldn't have in real life.

These videos are fairly consistent with descriptions written by people like Theodore Roosevelt in the late 1800s early 1900s, and also big game hunters like Samuel White Baker and George P Sanderson. The rag tag band of hounds and then either some half-bred seizers, or straight up bulldogs or bull terriers in tow for "fighting" the game. George P Sanderson specifically writes about using bull terriers for bears, and indeed says ALL animals except for tigers can be hunted well with bull terriers.

Previous to the time when my duties led to my living entirely in the jungles, I always kept one or two good bull-terriers for encounters with jackals, wild cats, &c. On the few occasions when I had the chance of using these dogs at formidable beasts they so distinguished themselves as to im- press me with a high opinion of their prowess, and of their ability to over- come larger animals than might be thought possible ; and I conceived the idea of setting up half-a-dozen couples of really stanch dogs, with which and * knife only, to kill bears, panthers, leopards, &c. It has not been until lately, however, that I have been in a position to carry out my idea ; but since I have lived almost wholly in the jungles, I have had opportunities of gain- ing some knowledge of what can be done in dangerous-game hunting with the aid of dogs. It is only to a few sportsmen, chiefly those who happen to be forest- officers or planters, to whom my experiences are likely to be of service. But in the hope that those in a position to try the sport for themselves may find them of some little use, I propose to record what I have myself learnt. I also believe that the general reader who has a taste for such subjects as form the theme of my book will feel an interest in reading of instances of courage shown by that infinitely more courage- ous animal than all the wild beasts of Asia and Africa together, the only creature in the world that fears no animate or inanimate object the British bull-dog.
The hunting of large and dangerous game with dogs may be managed in two ways: either with a pack merely to find and bay the animal wherever it goes, sufficiently discreet to keep out of its reach until the sportsman comes up with his rifle : or with dogs that will seize any beast at once and hold it until it can be speared, or killed with a knife. The latter sport is naturally much more exciting than merely shooting an animal found by dogs ; and whilst the former method is useful for tigers, especially wounded ones, almost all other smaller animals may be killed with dogs and the knife alone.

I determined to make a trial with bears, bison, panthers, and wild hogs. Since commencing I have killed several bears, panthers, and bison, and also captured a young wild elephant which the pack seized without hesitation.
In recommending a pack of dogs for seizing big game, I would do so only to men who are able to find bears, bison, or buffaloes. These animals will not give much of a run, which is a necessary condition, as the heavy dogs for seizing are not good at chasing. A bull-dog that is invaluable if the game can be fought with but little running, is useless in a chase of any duration ; therefore he can only be employed where animals can be brought to bay at once* The excitement of the sport consists in seeing the valour of the dogs, and in killing the animal with nothing but a knife. Nothing can be finer than to see the headlong attack of dogs that know not what fear is. Some persons may take exception to the sport on the ground of cruelty to the dogs, bat I do not think sportsmen will not that they are less tender- hearted than other people, but because they understand better what the dogs' feelings are. Many people speak of cruelty and pain in the abstract, without reference to the circumstances of the cases to which they apply the terms. Some would think nothing of keeping a bull-dog chained up for months, but would decry exposing it to the chance of being knocked about by a wild animal. Any one who understands the nature of such dogs knows that in excitement they do not feel pain, whilst depriving them of liberty and exercise is a real infliction to them. Their natural instincts find the greatest pleasure in fighting and bloodshed. Can any one doubt which of the two the dogs themselves would choose, to be loosed at a beast, or be tied up in a kennel? If so, he knows nothing about the disposition of bull-dogs.
It is remarkable how little injury the dogs sustain in this rough style of hunting. The simultaneousness of their attack overpowers a bear or panther, and prevents its paying attention to any dog in particular. The bull-dog's habit of fixing on to the nose or cheek of a foe renders the animal it seizes unable to do much injury by biting when once it has been seized. Then, though bears and panthers can inflict a severe blow when the object struck is at arm's-length, when it is very close their paws and claws are comparatively powerless. A bear's claws are so blunt that when a dog is holding him he cannot tear his skin, or make any wound, though at arm's- length he might cuff him soundly ; and a panther, though his claws are so sharp, can do little more harm. A bear never hugs the dogs ; his nose makes a splendid hold ; and from what I have seen, I consider two really good bull-dogs a complete match for any bear, if they get a fair chance of flying at him together. Once seized by the snout a bear is a helpless crea- ture, and does little but roll over and howl.

The seizers should be bull-dogs or bull-mastiffs. In using the word bull-dog, I mean the dogs usually bull and terrier commonly termed bull-dogs. I need hardly say pure bull-dogs are very rarely seen, nor, if procurable, would they answer so well as the cross between bull and terrier. The pure breed is seldom large enough, and the true bull is a particularly unintelligent and peaceable animal It is necessary to hit a happy medium. The bull-dog's determined courage and forward attack must be joined with the terrier's vivacity and intelligence. With too much of the bull in his composition a dog will be stupid ; whilst if the terrier element preponderates too strongly his courage may be doubtful, and, what is fatal in a seizer, he may go at some other part of the animal than the head.
The duty of the seizers in hunting is to fix on to any animal at which they are loosed. It must be remembered that imported dogs are generally useless until they have had a little teaching, as their instincts are seldom developed or encouraged in England, where a dog that would attack other animals would be a nuisance. But dogs of the right stamp all have it in them, and a little training upon stray cattle, or one of the gaunt village pigs which can be bought for a few rupees in India, will be sufficient to teach them. One of the best dogs I ever had for seizing large animals know absolutely nothing when I received him from England
The seizers should not weigh less than from 35 to 40 Ib.

Thirteen years among the wild beasts of India

Combine this with the artworks and accounts depicting the use of catchdogs on bears through the middle ages and back into ancient times, it's clear catch dogs are very useful on bears. 
And yet, the practice is largely out of favour or very hard to come across among modern hunters. 
North American houndsmen seem very conservative in their approach, and if you listen to them they will tell you that no catch dog can even catch even a hog without being killed. They are clearly way way too cautious so with that in mind I guess it's little wonder they have moved away from catching bears with bulldogs and similar. Maybe some hillbillies are still doing it, but I don't tend to encounter them on the internet. The closest I have seen in modern times is a rough cur or two with bitey inclinations worrying bears that are bayed by hounds, airedales and jagds often feature here, maybe even a rough BMC. I think this has more to do with these guys not wanting to use knives, and being gun obsessed, rather than dogs not being useful for bears. Like I said, all the evidence shouts loudly from the rooftops that catch dogs go with bears like peanut butter and jelly. I have actually myself totally underestimated how well catch dogs can work on bears in the past. 

I will say, anecdotally, I knew a guy on molosserdogs way back in the day who claimed his bandog was killed by a bear it attacked while hiking. Otherwise bear performance against gripping dogs that I have seen has not been great. 

[Deleted]

Nov 17, 2022 7:18:10 GMT Hardcastle said:

Me too... forgot to get around to it.
Yeah so it seems historically catch dogs and bears went hand in hand, and catch dog usage on bears was even still pretty common in the 20th century.
Even though it's a fictional movie, and the bear itself is likely a captive "animal actor", the dogs in this scene from the Yearling (1946) I'm sure are a real bear hunting team-

It would just be the most practical way to source dogs for such a scene, and they seem to known what they are doing. When filmmakers wanted a scene where a wild animal is hunted by dogs they would find a guy who hunts said animal with dogs and employ his services.
It's no different really to the dog team used to capture the jaguar in this film-

The jaguar might be a captive jaguar and it might be staged (I strongly suspect so), the dogs however think it's real and really are clearly big cat hunting dogs (maybe normally mountain lion hunters). They've got in contact with a guy who hunts big cats with dogs and to make their video so even though it may not be a real hunt, it shows you how a real hunt works fairly faithfully.

The bear video is more chopped and edited and I think that's specifically to tell the story of it getting away, it wouldn't have in real life.

These videos are fairly consistent with descriptions written by people like Theodore Roosevelt in the late 1800s early 1900s, and also big game hunters like Samuel White Baker and George P Sanderson. The rag tag band of hounds and then either some half-bred seizers, or straight up bulldogs or bull terriers in tow for "fighting" the game. George P Sanderson specifically writes about using bull terriers for bears, and indeed says ALL animals except for tigers can be hunted well with bull terriers.

Previous to the time when my duties led to my living entirely in the jungles, I always kept one or two good bull-terriers for encounters with jackals, wild cats, &c. On the few occasions when I had the chance of using these dogs at formidable beasts they so distinguished themselves as to im- press me with a high opinion of their prowess, and of their ability to over- come larger animals than might be thought possible ; and I conceived the idea of setting up half-a-dozen couples of really stanch dogs, with which and * knife only, to kill bears, panthers, leopards, &c. It has not been until lately, however, that I have been in a position to carry out my idea ; but since I have lived almost wholly in the jungles, I have had opportunities of gain- ing some knowledge of what can be done in dangerous-game hunting with the aid of dogs. It is only to a few sportsmen, chiefly those who happen to be forest- officers or planters, to whom my experiences are likely to be of service. But in the hope that those in a position to try the sport for themselves may find them of some little use, I propose to record what I have myself learnt. I also believe that the general reader who has a taste for such subjects as form the theme of my book will feel an interest in reading of instances of courage shown by that infinitely more courage- ous animal than all the wild beasts of Asia and Africa together, the only creature in the world that fears no animate or inanimate object the British bull-dog.
The hunting of large and dangerous game with dogs may be managed in two ways: either with a pack merely to find and bay the animal wherever it goes, sufficiently discreet to keep out of its reach until the sportsman comes up with his rifle : or with dogs that will seize any beast at once and hold it until it can be speared, or killed with a knife. The latter sport is naturally much more exciting than merely shooting an animal found by dogs ; and whilst the former method is useful for tigers, especially wounded ones, almost all other smaller animals may be killed with dogs and the knife alone.

I determined to make a trial with bears, bison, panthers, and wild hogs. Since commencing I have killed several bears, panthers, and bison, and also captured a young wild elephant which the pack seized without hesitation.
In recommending a pack of dogs for seizing big game, I would do so only to men who are able to find bears, bison, or buffaloes. These animals will not give much of a run, which is a necessary condition, as the heavy dogs for seizing are not good at chasing. A bull-dog that is invaluable if the game can be fought with but little running, is useless in a chase of any duration ; therefore he can only be employed where animals can be brought to bay at once* The excitement of the sport consists in seeing the valour of the dogs, and in killing the animal with nothing but a knife. Nothing can be finer than to see the headlong attack of dogs that know not what fear is. Some persons may take exception to the sport on the ground of cruelty to the dogs, bat I do not think sportsmen will not that they are less tender- hearted than other people, but because they understand better what the dogs' feelings are. Many people speak of cruelty and pain in the abstract, without reference to the circumstances of the cases to which they apply the terms. Some would think nothing of keeping a bull-dog chained up for months, but would decry exposing it to the chance of being knocked about by a wild animal. Any one who understands the nature of such dogs knows that in excitement they do not feel pain, whilst depriving them of liberty and exercise is a real infliction to them. Their natural instincts find the greatest pleasure in fighting and bloodshed. Can any one doubt which of the two the dogs themselves would choose, to be loosed at a beast, or be tied up in a kennel? If so, he knows nothing about the disposition of bull-dogs.
It is remarkable how little injury the dogs sustain in this rough style of hunting. The simultaneousness of their attack overpowers a bear or panther, and prevents its paying attention to any dog in particular. The bull-dog's habit of fixing on to the nose or cheek of a foe renders the animal it seizes unable to do much injury by biting when once it has been seized. Then, though bears and panthers can inflict a severe blow when the object struck is at arm's-length, when it is very close their paws and claws are comparatively powerless. A bear's claws are so blunt that when a dog is holding him he cannot tear his skin, or make any wound, though at arm's- length he might cuff him soundly ; and a panther, though his claws are so sharp, can do little more harm. A bear never hugs the dogs ; his nose makes a splendid hold ; and from what I have seen, I consider two really good bull-dogs a complete match for any bear, if they get a fair chance of flying at him together. Once seized by the snout a bear is a helpless crea- ture, and does little but roll over and howl.

The seizers should be bull-dogs or bull-mastiffs. In using the word bull-dog, I mean the dogs usually bull and terrier commonly termed bull-dogs. I need hardly say pure bull-dogs are very rarely seen, nor, if procurable, would they answer so well as the cross between bull and terrier. The pure breed is seldom large enough, and the true bull is a particularly unintelligent and peaceable animal It is necessary to hit a happy medium. The bull-dog's determined courage and forward attack must be joined with the terrier's vivacity and intelligence. With too much of the bull in his composition a dog will be stupid ; whilst if the terrier element preponderates too strongly his courage may be doubtful, and, what is fatal in a seizer, he may go at some other part of the animal than the head.
The duty of the seizers in hunting is to fix on to any animal at which they are loosed. It must be remembered that imported dogs are generally useless until they have had a little teaching, as their instincts are seldom developed or encouraged in England, where a dog that would attack other animals would be a nuisance. But dogs of the right stamp all have it in them, and a little training upon stray cattle, or one of the gaunt village pigs which can be bought for a few rupees in India, will be sufficient to teach them. One of the best dogs I ever had for seizing large animals know absolutely nothing when I received him from England
The seizers should not weigh less than from 35 to 40 Ib.

Thirteen years among the wild beasts of India

Combine this with the artworks and accounts depicting the use of catchdogs on bears through the middle ages and back into ancient times, it's clear catch dogs are very useful on bears. 
And yet, the practice is largely out of favour or very hard to come across among modern hunters. 
North American houndsmen seem very conservative in their approach, and if you listen to them they will tell you that no catch dog can even catch even a hog without being killed. They are clearly way way too cautious so with that in mind I guess it's little wonder they have moved away from catching bears with bulldogs and similar. Maybe some hillbillies are still doing it, but I don't tend to encounter them on the internet. The closest I have seen in modern times is a rough cur or two with bitey inclinations worrying bears that are bayed by hounds, airedales and jagds often feature here, maybe even a rough BMC. I think this has more to do with these guys not wanting to use knives, and being gun obsessed, rather than dogs not being useful for bears. Like I said, all the evidence shouts loudly from the rooftops that catch dogs go with bears like peanut butter and jelly. I have actually myself totally underestimated how well catch dogs can work on bears in the past. 

I will say, anecdotally, I knew a guy on molosserdogs way back in the day who claimed his bandog was killed by a bear it attacked while hiking. Otherwise bear performance against gripping dogs that I have seen has not been great. 

That just pisses me off. Im sorry but if it staged then thats just shitty. Putting a captive jaguar in the wild and putting a bunch of dogs on it and acting like you are the hero of the universe? Bullshit. Native cats being harassed by dogs when they don’t need to be strikes a nerve. And I mean usually like Bobcats, Jaguars, Leopards, etc. which don’t need to be hunted and are all for dick boosts.

[Hardcastle]

I agree but It happened 50 years ago and every nature documentary back then was actually fake (except David Attenborough, hence what a game changer he was). Many of the interactions we have seen between wild animals were totally staged. I don't even know for a fact with this one, I just strongly suspect it probably was like the rest. There are still things to glean, the animals don't know it's staged.

At the end of the day it didn't get hurt, animals endure much much much worse, it's not great but not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

[Musth]

I know historically bears were used to hunt with catch dogs. But no body what so ever does it any more. I wonder why. I don’t think a bear would stand much of a chance against 5-6 dogos but that’s just me. Spear the bear when it is caught on the ground.

I have seen Bear baiting videos in Pakistan. Usually two dogs(maybe sometimes three) are used. They are almost always the smaller Gull Terr. The bears are always declawed and are toothless because they are dancing bears turned bear baiting bears a lot of the times. Basically it’s a wrestling rule. Dogs pin bear on shoulder blades the dogs win. If bear puma two dogs on their shoulder blades or backs and is able to pin them down it wins. But from what I have saw this one bear was a power house absolutely manhandling these two bulldogs effortlessly would have killed both if they weren’t separated even with his claws or teeth. He wrestled them down immediately and was crushing the life out of the dogs. But that’s an experienced bear baiting bear though. That might be different from a naive wild bear.

I think Catch dogs could be used on black bear and other smaller species of bear. Against the grizzly’s, other large brown bears, and polar bears, not possible to use catch dogs. I’m talking huge bears. It’s just not worth it at that point 1200-1500 lbs bears are way too much. A 150-300lbs black bear is definitely do able and I don’t care what anyone says could probably even go larger than that with more dogs and be all right.

There was a rumour and actually supposedly a video way back in the day of two Kangals killing a 330lbs black bear.

I guess the closest thing I can think of the top of my head right now is a guy uses Staghounds with his scent hound to hunt bear(and cougar) and they are gritty and will fully engage if needed.

http://instagram.com/p/ByL3jFkntJm

http://instagram.com/p/CBwEulTJcR-

Staghound chasing Cougar

http://instagram.com/p/CKK2r3olWVm

[Hardcastle]

Actually awesome seeing the staghound chase the puma like that. That's the kind of "view" I live for, gazing down upon my dog putting a real good chase on something, and if it was a cougar (my arch nemesis) all the better.
Nice find. Wonder what happened.

Also funny to see the hate comments when the guy posted the stag nursing a bear bite.

Bears are nasty but surprisingly very very poor at killing efficiently, so it seems you can hunt them with catch dogs and the dogs get bitten and scratched and knocked around a bit, but aren't THAT liable to die before the human catches up. So it is actually a viable practice.
I'm sure there are exceptions and dogs would die of course, but yeah 19th century hunters especially just considered it standard practice no different to boar hunting, and like boar hunting they'd use both bulldogs/bull terriers, and boarhounds.