Lone Panthera Predator-To-Prey Weight Ratios

[Deleted]

Which species of large lone panthera has the highest predator-to-prey weight ratio? Leopard?

I've observed that more flexible and agile lone carnivora have the ability to take larger prey and do so more adeptly than less flexible lone carnivora. Does the leopard (which seems to be more flexible and agile than the other large panthera) have the higher predator-to-prey weight ratio?

A wild card is clouded leopard which it appears is even more flexible than leopard.

It seems apparent to me that lone tiger is more adept at taking large prey than lone lion.

Jaguar looks to me to be more flexible and agile than tiger, but less-so than leopard.

The less flexible large-game carnivora tend to hunt in packs to achieve a regularly high predator-to-prey weight ratio, even though said carnivora may be as robust as their more flexible counterparts.

The lion is the least flexible and agile of the large pantheras and just so happens to hunt in prides.

[Hardcastle]

Cool idea for a topic, hopefully spurs some deeper investigation. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the highest AVERAGE predator to prey weight ratio actually belonged to the puma.
I don't know how true that is, but I accepted it as them being deer specialists who simply don't dabble in smaller prey very often compared to leopards and jaguars. Jaguars would really suffer in average prey size due to targetting a wide array of very interesting prey species like fish, snakes, turtles, monkeys, sloths, coatis, armadillos and tamandua ... even the typical herbivores they target are often kind of small like peccaries, capybaras, agoutis, etc. Then yes they take out tapir, wild hogs and cattle, but that's counter balanced by a lot of small critters.

Pumas target mostly deer - white tail, mule deer and elk in north america, and quite a few mustangs which would bump them up. In south america I'm less well versed on their diet but pressumably they continue their focus on white tailed deer in northern parts, and then also target pampas deer and marsh deer and brockets throughout the rest of the continent. Then as we know they rely heavily on guanaco down south.
They kind of consistently focus on large-ish but not truly large prey, and sustain a high average with that. I'm sure they kill some hares and turkeys and etc as well but there's a stronger preference for somewhat bigger animals than many other cats. I always get the impression that cougars are kind of like "creatures of habit" where they're like "I kill deer... wtf is that non-deer? Do not want", while leopards and jaguars are more "open minded". I'd actually be so curious if there was a way to measure the brainpower of cougars and leopards and jaguars. I have a suspicion that pumas are dumber, could be wrong.

Leopards are a little like jaguars in that they have a fairly diverse menu which includes lots of small animals; Rodents, lagomorphs, snakes, lizards, porcupines, monkeys even insects apparently supplement them between ungulates which tend to most often be antelopes which aren't that big. They also prey on a lot of small canids, not just street dogs but foxes and jackals as well. They do target warthogs in africa and sus scrofa in asia, but even these animals aren't often huge, impressive despite their size in many instances. I find it interesting that leopards in Africa really don't seem to like messing with zebra much, even wildebeest it seems aren't popular. The few cases I have seen either involved a small calf OR a huge male leopard when it was an adult wildebeest (and still rare). The latter fact indicates to me it's a bit of a challenge for the other leopards. Huge male leopards often seem to begin branching out into prey that leopards generally avoid. So full credit to them, but it indicates the avoidance of most leopards has no excuse other than not being jacked and big enough.

The highest highs of leopards and jaguars seem to outstrip those of pumas fairly significantly. Weight doesn't even tell the full story IMO because pumas have some nice feats against horses and elk, which are heavy, but clearly shy from cattle and adult boars which are more difficult to kill by a lot.

Leopards DO prey on cattle, but I find it quite curious how they basically don't prey on cattle in Africa. It seems they target cattle in Iran and maybe India and I wonder why this is. Are these leopards that much better? OR... leopards also prey on humans in india and not in africa, and I actually think it's the humans who are different, not the leopards, and then I also wonder if the cattle are different.
Jaguars were massacring cattle hand over fist in the pantanal until they switched from zebu/bos indicus to taurine cattle, and then cattle predations drops off dramatically to the point of non-existence. Bos Indicus IS the Asiatic strain of cattle, they can be very durable and have a lot of dewlap and a neck hump and etc but they aren't very offensively aggressive and also don't protect their young. I wonder if these leopard predations on cattle are all geared towards relatively "limp" cattle of the bos indicus variety, cattle which kind of evolved in their domesticated state working closer to humans and being afforded protection and consequently "devolving" in anti-predator strategies and abilities. Bos Taurus traditionally a very free-ranging type of lifestyle where the persecution never let up relative to their wild ancestors.

There's another discussion to be had here about the big 2; lions and tigers. Designed it seems specifically to tackle the big two bad boys of the ungulates- bovines and boars. Just as standard operating procedure, and then with some outlier "feats" that are truly extraordinary where they have taken the odd member of the "immortals"; the elephants, rhinos, hippos of the world. Rarely, for sure, but I believe there are some verified cases. I kind of agree with Ajay that the upper upper rare ceiling for the tiger DOES seem to possibly be higher than the lion, and I say that as a strong stalwart of the team lion club.

[Hardcastle]

BTW, this is what a good topic looks like IMO. Trilobyte vs Scorpion has no where to go. I think "the arena" is probably my least favourite subforum, personally. These kinds of investigation are where the money is, for me.

[Deleted]

Feb 27, 2023 12:40:53 GMT Hardcastle said:

Cool idea for a topic, hopefully spurs some deeper investigation. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the highest AVERAGE predator to prey weight ratio actually belonged to the puma.
I don't know how true that is, but I accepted it as them being deer specialists who simply don't dabble in smaller prey very often compared to leopards and jaguars. Jaguars would really suffer in average prey size due to targetting a wide array of very interesting prey species like fish, snakes, turtles, monkeys, sloths, coatis, armadillos and tamandua ... even the typical herbivores they target are often kind of small like peccaries, capybaras, agoutis, etc. Then yes they take out tapir, wild hogs and cattle, but that's counter balanced by a lot of small critters.

Pumas target mostly deer - white tail, mule deer and elk in north america, and quite a few mustangs which would bump them up. In south america I'm less well versed on their diet but pressumably they continue their focus on white tailed deer in northern parts, and then also target pampas deer and marsh deer and brockets throughout the rest of the continent. Then as we know they rely heavily on guanaco down south.
They kind of consistently focus on large-ish but not truly large prey, and sustain a high average with that. I'm sure they kill some hares and turkeys and etc as well but there's a stronger preference for somewhat bigger animals than many other cats. I always get the impression that cougars are kind of like "creatures of habit" where they're like "I kill deer... wtf is that non-deer? Do not want", while leopards and jaguars are more "open minded". I'd actually be so curious if there was a way to measure the brainpower of cougars and leopards and jaguars. I have a suspicion that pumas are dumber, could be wrong.

Leopards are a little like jaguars in that they have a fairly diverse menu which includes lots of small animals; Rodents, lagomorphs, snakes, lizards, porcupines, monkeys even insects apparently supplement them between ungulates which tend to most often be antelopes which aren't that big. They also prey on a lot of small canids, not just street dogs but foxes and jackals as well. They do target warthogs in africa and sus scrofa in asia, but even these animals aren't often huge, impressive despite their size in many instances. I find it interesting that leopards in Africa really don't seem to like messing with zebra much, even wildebeest it seems aren't popular. The few cases I have seen either involved a small calf OR a huge male leopard when it was an adult wildebeest (and still rare). The latter fact indicates to me it's a bit of a challenge for the other leopards. Huge male leopards often seem to begin branching out into prey that leopards generally avoid. So full credit to them, but it indicates the avoidance of most leopards has no excuse other than not being jacked and big enough.

The highest highs of leopards and jaguars seem to outstrip those of pumas fairly significantly. Weight doesn't even tell the full story IMO because pumas have some nice feats against horses and elk, which are heavy, but clearly shy from cattle and adult boars which are more difficult to kill by a lot.

Leopards DO prey on cattle, but I find it quite curious how they basically don't prey on cattle in Africa. It seems they target cattle in Iran and maybe India and I wonder why this is. Are these leopards that much better? OR... leopards also prey on humans in india and not in africa, and I actually think it's the humans who are different, not the leopards, and then I also wonder if the cattle are different.
Jaguars were massacring cattle hand over fist in the pantanal until they switched from zebu/bos indicus to taurine cattle, and then cattle predations drops off dramatically to the point of non-existence. Bos Indicus IS the Asiatic strain of cattle, they can be very durable and have a lot of dewlap and a neck hump and etc but they aren't very offensively aggressive and also don't protect their young. I wonder if these leopard predations on cattle are all geared towards relatively "limp" cattle of the bos indicus variety, cattle which kind of evolved in their domesticated state working closer to humans and being afforded protection and consequently "devolving" in anti-predator strategies and abilities. Bos Taurus traditionally a very free-ranging type of lifestyle where the persecution never let up relative to their wild ancestors.

There's another discussion to be had here about the big 2; lions and tigers. Designed it seems specifically to tackle the big two bad boys of the ungulates- bovines and boars. Just as standard operating procedure, and then with some outlier "feats" that are truly extraordinary where they have taken the odd member of the "immortals"; the elephants, rhinos, hippos of the world. Rarely, for sure, but I believe there are some verified cases. I kind of agree with Ajay that the upper upper rare ceiling for the tiger DOES seem to possibly be higher than the lion, and I say that as a strong stalwart of the team lion club.

Nice read! Yeah tiger fans often site the fact that tiger has a higher predator-to-prey weight ratio ceiling as hard proof that tiger beats lion head-to-head. However I acknowledge that lone tiger IS better at taking larger prey while STILL being disadvantaged against parity lion.

Anyway as I'm sure many here know the lion has the highest predator-to-prey weight ratio of all carnivora at 15:1, which I believe translates to about a 4,500 lb small adult-female elephant or a sub-adult elephant. Large 20+ member "Elephant killer prides" get that done.

As a guesstimate regarding the reliable high ceiling (not including flukes and such) I'll say good lone tiger is probably capable of 5:1 on healthy prey? And say 4:1 for lone lion?

Leopard I've lot less of a clue. 6:1? But also as you say it's not just about the weight of the prey but also the robusticity, durability and defensive attitude of the prey. So for this discussion of what panthera takes the most formidable prey, predator-to-prey weight ratio perhaps should not be a one-and-only measuring stick.

However when I talk about the agility and flexibility of carnivora I am really correlating that attribute with "large" prey. I just think the greater attribute of agility and flexibility allows a carnivoran to take prey that is larger in size. For all I know perhaps a lone lion does better than tiger with 400 lb boar. But what I do believe I know is that if you gave a parity lion and tiger the exact same really large 5:1 prey, the tiger will MOTN bring it down quicker and easier due to its greater athleticism.

The parity tiger isn't stronger, the lion is stronger. But strength is not why tiger beats lion here. Tiger beats lion here due to greater athleticism in terms of greater agility and flexibility. Look at leopard vs spotted hyena. But could be said to be about as strong/robust as one another at parity, but the leopard flogs lone spotted hyena in the ease with which it can take large prey and that's due to the leopard's far greater athleticism.

[CoolJohnson]

Cool idea for a topic, hopefully spurs some deeper investigation. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the highest AVERAGE predator to prey weight ratio actually belonged to the puma.

If we consider overall prey, then that is not quite true.





The reason is also is subordination to the larger predators. This includes jaguars for cougars and lions/tigers/hyenas for leopards.

[Hardcastle]

Well immediately I can see that's "maximum average", as opposed to "average". I mean it's giving cheetahs 53.5 kgs which is absolutely insane because most of their prey are Thomson's Gazelle which weigh about 25 kgs most of the time, and then probably their second favourite prey would be hares. Then sure they start dabbling in other antelopes and even maybe rarely wildebeest, but this is definitely not the average weight of their prey and it says as much.

Could go through every species and point out it's definitely not their average prey size.

Now, average maximum is probably it's own worthy consideration and maybe more relevant to ability (seems to be, the "ranking" of these results is nice), just saying it's not what I was talking about.

Notice however the puma still outstrips the leopard.

[CoolJohnson]

I'd say that a North American cougar outsrips an African Leopard.

[Deleted]

Who gives a shit? Cougar vs Leopard is a 50/50 match-up. There's no point on debating about it. They're similar in almost every way (don't be nit-picky). So just leave it at that. Jesus.

[Hardcastle]

Feb 27, 2023 15:47:05 GMT @ling said:

Who gives a shit? Cougar vs Leopard is a 50/50 match-up. There's no point on debating about it. They're similar in almost every way (don't be nit-picky). So just leave it at that. Jesus.

Can't downvote, but just know I mentally downvoted.

[Hardcastle]

Feb 27, 2023 15:03:20 GMT CoolJohnson said:

I'd say that a North American cougar outsrips an African Leopard.

Interesting idea... That's the debate right there. But do you think pumas would readily take to warthogs and indian boars (even sub-par specimens)? I don't think I do. I think bigger prey, sure, but I don't think they can deal with prey that fights back as well as leopards can.

[Deleted]

Feb 27, 2023 16:28:19 GMT Hardcastle said:

Feb 27, 2023 15:47:05 GMT @ling said:

Who gives a shit? Cougar vs Leopard is a 50/50 match-up. There's no point on debating about it. They're similar in almost every way (don't be nit-picky). So just leave it at that. Jesus.

Can't downvote, but just know I mentally downvoted.

Explain.

[Deleted]

Feb 27, 2023 12:40:53 GMT Hardcastle said:

Cool idea for a topic, hopefully spurs some deeper investigation. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the highest AVERAGE predator to prey weight ratio actually belonged to the puma.
I don't know how true that is, but I accepted it as them being deer specialists who simply don't dabble in smaller prey very often compared to leopards and jaguars. Jaguars would really suffer in average prey size due to targetting a wide array of very interesting prey species like fish, snakes, turtles, monkeys, sloths, coatis, armadillos and tamandua ... even the typical herbivores they target are often kind of small like peccaries, capybaras, agoutis, etc. Then yes they take out tapir, wild hogs and cattle, but that's counter balanced by a lot of small critters.

Pumas target mostly deer - white tail, mule deer and elk in north america, and quite a few mustangs which would bump them up. In south america I'm less well versed on their diet but pressumably they continue their focus on white tailed deer in northern parts, and then also target pampas deer and marsh deer and brockets throughout the rest of the continent. Then as we know they rely heavily on guanaco down south.
They kind of consistently focus on large-ish but not truly large prey, and sustain a high average with that. I'm sure they kill some hares and turkeys and etc as well but there's a stronger preference for somewhat bigger animals than many other cats. I always get the impression that cougars are kind of like "creatures of habit" where they're like "I kill deer... wtf is that non-deer? Do not want", while leopards and jaguars are more "open minded". I'd actually be so curious if there was a way to measure the brainpower of cougars and leopards and jaguars. I have a suspicion that pumas are dumber, could be wrong.

Leopards are a little like jaguars in that they have a fairly diverse menu which includes lots of small animals; Rodents, lagomorphs, snakes, lizards, porcupines, monkeys even insects apparently supplement them between ungulates which tend to most often be antelopes which aren't that big. They also prey on a lot of small canids, not just street dogs but foxes and jackals as well. They do target warthogs in africa and sus scrofa in asia, but even these animals aren't often huge, impressive despite their size in many instances. I find it interesting that leopards in Africa really don't seem to like messing with zebra much, even wildebeest it seems aren't popular. The few cases I have seen either involved a small calf OR a huge male leopard when it was an adult wildebeest (and still rare). The latter fact indicates to me it's a bit of a challenge for the other leopards. Huge male leopards often seem to begin branching out into prey that leopards generally avoid. So full credit to them, but it indicates the avoidance of most leopards has no excuse other than not being jacked and big enough.

The highest highs of leopards and jaguars seem to outstrip those of pumas fairly significantly. Weight doesn't even tell the full story IMO because pumas have some nice feats against horses and elk, which are heavy, but clearly shy from cattle and adult boars which are more difficult to kill by a lot.

Leopards DO prey on cattle, but I find it quite curious how they basically don't prey on cattle in Africa. It seems they target cattle in Iran and maybe India and I wonder why this is. Are these leopards that much better? OR... leopards also prey on humans in india and not in africa, and I actually think it's the humans who are different, not the leopards, and then I also wonder if the cattle are different.
Jaguars were massacring cattle hand over fist in the pantanal until they switched from zebu/bos indicus to taurine cattle, and then cattle predations drops off dramatically to the point of non-existence. Bos Indicus IS the Asiatic strain of cattle, they can be very durable and have a lot of dewlap and a neck hump and etc but they aren't very offensively aggressive and also don't protect their young. I wonder if these leopard predations on cattle are all geared towards relatively "limp" cattle of the bos indicus variety, cattle which kind of evolved in their domesticated state working closer to humans and being afforded protection and consequently "devolving" in anti-predator strategies and abilities. Bos Taurus traditionally a very free-ranging type of lifestyle where the persecution never let up relative to their wild ancestors.

There's another discussion to be had here about the big 2; lions and tigers. Designed it seems specifically to tackle the big two bad boys of the ungulates- bovines and boars. Just as standard operating procedure, and then with some outlier "feats" that are truly extraordinary where they have taken the odd member of the "immortals"; the elephants, rhinos, hippos of the world. Rarely, for sure, but I believe there are some verified cases. I kind of agree with Ajay that the upper upper rare ceiling for the tiger DOES seem to possibly be higher than the lion, and I say that as a strong stalwart of the team lion club.

India has ultra pussy cattle. Iran... dunno.

[CoolJohnson]

Feb 27, 2023 16:34:49 GMT Hardcastle said:

Feb 27, 2023 15:03:20 GMT CoolJohnson said:

I'd say that a North American cougar outsrips an African Leopard.

Interesting idea... That's the debate right there. But do you think pumas would readily take to warthogs and indian boars (even sub-par specimens)? I don't think I do. I think bigger prey, sure, but I don't think they can deal with prey that fights back as well as leopards can.

Not so much.

Also, Leopards take to large deer in parts of India, Iran/Caucasus and Sri Lanka.

Cougars take very small prey in many parts of Latin America.

"We found that rabbits (Sylvilagus sp.) provided half of the relative biomass consumed by the cougar (50%). Other preys identified belong to representatives of medium and large mammals such as marsupials (Didelphis: 10%), sloths (Choloepus: 9%), rodents (Coendou: 10%, Cuniculus: 9%), and deer (Mazama: 9%)"

www.scielo.br/j/paz/a/bZt6Z6MJrj4VghnN9qvdVDQ/?lang=en

source: Castillo, Diana Camila Muñoz, Pauline Perry Arbeláez, Héctor Fabio Arias-Monsalve, and Héctor E. Ramírez-Chaves. "Food habits of the cougar Puma concolor (carnivora: felidae) in the central Andes of the Colombian coffee region." Papéis Avulsos de Zoologia 60 (2020).

"The largest native prey of the puma in the study area is the pudu, an animal that does not exceeds 10 kg of body mass (Muñoz & Yánez 2000), while the average of the body mass of prey (native and exotic) of pumas delivered for forests coastal and Andean regions of southern Chile is 7.7 kg (Rau & Jiménez 2002)."

source: Skewes, O., Moraga, C. A., Arriagada, P., & Rau, J. R. (2012). The European wild boar (Sus scrofa): a biological invader as a recent prey of the American puma (Puma concolor) in southern Chile. Revista Chilena de Historia Natural, 85(2), 227-232.

[Deleted]

Feb 27, 2023 18:14:04 GMT CoolJohnson said:

Feb 27, 2023 16:34:49 GMT Hardcastle said:

Interesting idea... That's the debate right there. But do you think pumas would readily take to warthogs and indian boars (even sub-par specimens)? I don't think I do. I think bigger prey, sure, but I don't think they can deal with prey that fights back as well as leopards can.

Not so much.

Also, Leopards take to large deer in parts of India, Iran/Caucasus and Sri Lanka.

Cougars take very small prey in many parts of Latin America.

"We found that rabbits (Sylvilagus sp.) provided half of the relative biomass consumed by the cougar (50%). Other preys identified belong to representatives of medium and large mammals such as marsupials (Didelphis: 10%), sloths (Choloepus: 9%), rodents (Coendou: 10%, Cuniculus: 9%), and deer (Mazama: 9%)"

www.scielo.br/j/paz/a/bZt6Z6MJrj4VghnN9qvdVDQ/?lang=en

source: Castillo, Diana Camila Muñoz, Pauline Perry Arbeláez, Héctor Fabio Arias-Monsalve, and Héctor E. Ramírez-Chaves. "Food habits of the cougar Puma concolor (carnivora: felidae) in the central Andes of the Colombian coffee region." Papéis Avulsos de Zoologia 60 (2020).

"The largest native prey of the puma in the study area is the pudu, an animal that does not exceeds 10 kg of body mass (Muñoz & Yánez 2000), while the average of the body mass of prey (native and exotic) of pumas delivered for forests coastal and Andean regions of southern Chile is 7.7 kg (Rau & Jiménez 2002)."

source: Skewes, O., Moraga, C. A., Arriagada, P., & Rau, J. R. (2012). The European wild boar (Sus scrofa): a biological invader as a recent prey of the American puma (Puma concolor) in southern Chile. Revista Chilena de Historia Natural, 85(2), 227-232.

Seems like in South America cougars in some areas (!!!) learn to exploit the variety of small game. I don't buy the excuse of cougars being "forced" to prey on those animals since leopards also kill a lot of small game and practically all leopards kill at least medium-sized game like gazelles and even wildebeest.