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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 11:31:30 GMT
HardcastleI would have been happier if you categorically said "I agree with you", but even though you didn't, I should say that it's a huge relief that you're coming around, that there's now an "open door."
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 11:57:30 GMT
That's right. Because, it is the honest truth. One that is just so painfully true for cougar-haters who just cannot withstand the thought that this humble "deer killer" can accomplish anything more than "killing a large bull elk on rare occasions." It's just a simple fact. I'm not trying to tease you guys or pull anyone’s legs, or sound ridiculous. I just want you guys to accept cougars for what they are. It’s basically the same way you're frustrated with the way guys on Carnivora disrespect dogs or don't "give them the honour due them" as it were. And I do agree that they indeed disrespect dogs. And that’s quite something, coming from me, a zealous cat fan. That's basically how I feel when I see people say things like "even grizzly bears and wolf packs don’t prey on healthy adult bison" as if to make it look like cougars exist in the shadow of those animals when it comes to killing big game, when nothing could be further from the truth. Washing the soles of a cougar’s feet is FAR too honourable a task to assign to a grizzly bear/wolf pack when it comes to the weaponry, skill, acrobatics with which these animals are endowed to contend with something like American bison. When somebody says something like "even grizzly bears, and wolves..." my response is basically just "and so what? Who gives a rat's arse that they aren’t good enough to kill healthy adult bison?" I mean, cougars prey on horses regularly, bears don’t. They're rather happy to steal from a cougar that has gone through the trouble of subduing a 900-pound ungulate. So, what exactly does "even grizzlies don’t prey on bison" mean? Horses already prove you wrong. That's nature itself saying "you're wrong." Cougars strike a greater fear into the hearts of elk than wolves do (and it's not because of any stupid "management plan", the study on ResearchGate NEVER said anything about wolves deploying any rubbish "management plan". That's just garbage conjured up to save the wolves' skin), so EXACTLY what does "even wolves don't do A and B" mean for a cougar? As we all can see for ourselves from actual scientific journals that are peer-reviewed, cougars command a greater respect from the North American ungulates than wolves/bears do. And I can post more videos and scientific papers if it becomes necessary. So, wolves and bears not being up to the task of killing healthy adult bison only gets an "I feel sorry for you" reaction from cougars, not "wow, even you guys don't touch bison, I would be none the wiser if I even attempted to attack bison." As for the exceptionally stupid "but cougars coexist with bison and don't prey on them, so that means they can’t" argument, I'll refer everyone back to the Cambodian leopard, banteng, and Indochinese tiger study that was made by Susana Rostro-Garcia. The explanation there would show you why you couldn't be more wrong. So, yes, Mr. Hardcastle, I am REALLY into it because it IS a cause worth fighting for. The ONLY accurate ranking that there was, IS and EVER WILL BE of the ability of North American land carnivores to kill HEALTHY and NON-COMPROMISED ADULT American bison is: Cougar >>>>>>>> Wolf Pack >>> Grizzly bear. I still don't see how one cougar is supposed to be a better bison-killer than like five to nine wolves. Like we literally have videos of wolves killing bison, yet there's almost nothing on cougars killing bison. Doesn't that just prove that wolves are the better bison-killers? It could be argued that we don't know if cougars are better at subduing bison or not BECAUSE of this lack of predation. But I'd argue that this lack of predation just shows that cougars realise they can't kill a bison the majority of the time. You don't see it because you're effectively "short-sighted" (I don't mean that in a bad way). How many times do I have to remind you that I am specifically talking about cougars that weigh 80 to 100 kg. Maybe since you use pounds more often, this will help you understand: those will be 176 to 220 lb cougars (multiply weight in kg by roughly 2.2 to get equivalent in pounds). Now just contemplate how monstrously powerful cougars of that mass would be. It would be the zenith of insanity to think that cougars of such a gargantuan stature can only be thinking about deer, or that bull elk is the best they can do regularly, or that bull moose is the absolute best they can do. No, not even bull moose would be their peak performance. Bison WOULD be. Like I said, it ONLY has to be at the same prey to predator weight ratio at which other big cats have shown that cattle beasts are a VERY viable prey item for them, and that would be 5 to 7:1. Now, 7:1 MIGHT (and that’s a very big might) be a stretch, but 6:1 is definitely doable, and far be it from me to have any second thoughts at 5:1. I would literally disown cougars if they couldn’t pull this feat off CONSISTENTLY at a 5:1 bison: cougar weight/mass ratio. If you are deluded enough to think they cannot, I'm afraid it's only a matter of time before we start talking about "Cougar vs Bison" at parity and looking to see if there's any possibility the bison could win. " But I'd argue that this lack of predation just shows that cougars realise they can't kill a bison the majority of the time." Exactly, you're right again. Gosh! Look at me, how could ANACONDIA ever be wrong? Like, they are ALWAYS right! I take it they've never heard of the sayings "things are not as they appear", "all that glitters is not gold", "you can't judge a book by its cover", and "many people look, but few people see." I agree with ANACONDIA. I too think that the STARK absence of leopard predation on bantengs in Cambodia when ONLY tigers were still existent was proof that the leopards themselves knew that they could NEVER kill adult bantengs. Incidentally, it just happens that when the tigers went the way of the dinosaurs, and the leopards didn’t have to worry about looking over their backs to make sure their big brother, a striped tyrant wasn't waiting to come and eat the fruit of their labour, the huge adult males began to make bantengs their daily bread. But, pardon me! It just so happens that ONLY ONE dominant predator was sufficient to basically make bantengs "IMMUNE" to leopard predation, but cougars that live in an even more tyrannical landscape governed by not one, but THREE enemies on every side, right, left, and centre are expected to put their life on the line, to contend with something as hideously powerful as an American bison as the SOLE proof that they can. Oh, and by the way, did I forget to tell you that if cougars do not live up to ANACONDIA and other narrow-minded dudes' expectations, the ONLY conclusion that can be drawn is that cougars do not have the ABILITY to prey on bison. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2023 12:07:25 GMT
I still don't see how one cougar is supposed to be a better bison-killer than like five to nine wolves. Like we literally have videos of wolves killing bison, yet there's almost nothing on cougars killing bison. Doesn't that just prove that wolves are the better bison-killers? It could be argued that we don't know if cougars are better at subduing bison or not BECAUSE of this lack of predation. But I'd argue that this lack of predation just shows that cougars realise they can't kill a bison the majority of the time. You don't see it because you're effectively "short-sighted" (I don't mean that in a bad way). How many times do I have to remind you that I am specifically talking about cougars that weigh 80 to 100 kg. Maybe since you use pounds more often, this will help you understand: those will be 176 to 220 lb cougars (multiply weight in kg by roughly 2.2 to get equivalent in pounds). Now just contemplate how monstrously powerful cougars of that mass would be. It would be the zenith of insanity to think that cougars of such a gargantuan stature can only be thinking about deer, or that bull elk is the best they can do regularly, or that bull moose is the absolute best they can do. No, not even bull moose would be their peak performance. Bison WOULD be. Like I said, it ONLY has to be at the same prey to predator weight ratio at which other big cats have shown that cattle beasts are a VERY viable prey item for them, and that would be 5 to 7:1. Now, 7:1 MIGHT (and that’s a very big might) be a stretch, but 6:1 is definitely doable, and far be it from me to have any second thoughts at 5:1. I would literally disown cougars if they couldn’t pull this feat off CONSISTENTLY at a 5:1 bison: cougar weight/mass ratio. If you are deluded enough to think they cannot, I'm afraid it's only a matter of time before we start talking about "Cougar vs Bison" at parity and looking to see if there's any possibility the bison could win. " But I'd argue that this lack of predation just shows that cougars realise they can't kill a bison the majority of the time." Exactly, you're right again. Gosh! Look at me, how could ANACONDIA ever be wrong? Like, they are ALWAYS right! I take it they've never heard of the sayings "things are not as they appear", "all that glitters is not gold", "you can't judge a book by its cover", and "many people look, but few people see." I agree with ANACONDIA. I too think that the STARK absence of leopard predation on bantengs in Cambodia when ONLY tigers were still existent was proof that the leopards themselves knew that they could NEVER kill adult bantengs. Incidentally, it just happens that when the tigers went the way of the dinosaurs, and the leopards didn’t have to worry about looking over their backs to make sure their big brother, a striped tyrant wasn't waiting to come and eat the fruit of their labour, the huge adult males began to make bantengs their daily bread. But, pardon me! It just so happens that ONLY ONE dominant predator was sufficient to basically make bantengs "IMMUNE" to leopard predation, but cougars that live in an even more tyrannical landscape governed by not one, but THREE enemies on every side, right, left, and centre are expected to put their life on the line, to contend with something as hideously powerful as an American bison as the SOLE proof that they can. Oh, and by the way, did I forget to tell you that if cougars do not live up to ANACONDIA and other narrow-minded dudes' expectations, the ONLY conclusion that can be drawn is that cougars do not have the ABILITY to prey on bison. I still don't see how one cougar is supposed to be a better bison-killer than like five to nine wolves. Like we literally have videos of wolves killing bison, yet there's almost nothing on cougars killing bison. Doesn't that just prove that wolves are the better bison-killers? It could be argued that we don't know if cougars are better at subduing bison or not BECAUSE of this lack of predation. But I'd argue that this lack of predation just shows that cougars realise they can't kill a bison the majority of the time. You don't see it because you're effectively "short-sighted" (I don't mean that in a bad way). How many times do I have to remind you that I am specifically talking about cougars that weigh 80 to 100 kg. I know lol. I just don't see how a 85-odd kg cougar could subdue an animal that can weigh over 700 kg. |
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Jul 28, 2023 12:13:40 GMT
I wonder if a really healthy bull Bison has to worry about anything in North America. Probably had to mind their Ps and Qs when Smilodon Fatalis, Dire Wolf packs and American Lions were knocking about (and short faced bears perhaps), but now? Wolves only carefully target the compromised, and for the most part I don't think pumas even look at Bison. The smattering of possible exceptions, which kudos to supercat for finding, are still at the end of the day exceptions. Curious to hear from kevin on that topic. Wolves wouldn't be able to target healthy bulls. That's for certain. Even the supercats would need to carefully plan their ambush. One wrong step and things could be fatal. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 12:15:44 GMT
You don't see it because you're effectively "short-sighted" (I don't mean that in a bad way). How many times do I have to remind you that I am specifically talking about cougars that weigh 80 to 100 kg. Maybe since you use pounds more often, this will help you understand: those will be 176 to 220 lb cougars (multiply weight in kg by roughly 2.2 to get equivalent in pounds). Now just contemplate how monstrously powerful cougars of that mass would be. It would be the zenith of insanity to think that cougars of such a gargantuan stature can only be thinking about deer, or that bull elk is the best they can do regularly, or that bull moose is the absolute best they can do. No, not even bull moose would be their peak performance. Bison WOULD be. Like I said, it ONLY has to be at the same prey to predator weight ratio at which other big cats have shown that cattle beasts are a VERY viable prey item for them, and that would be 5 to 7:1. Now, 7:1 MIGHT (and that’s a very big might) be a stretch, but 6:1 is definitely doable, and far be it from me to have any second thoughts at 5:1. I would literally disown cougars if they couldn’t pull this feat off CONSISTENTLY at a 5:1 bison: cougar weight/mass ratio. If you are deluded enough to think they cannot, I'm afraid it's only a matter of time before we start talking about "Cougar vs Bison" at parity and looking to see if there's any possibility the bison could win. " But I'd argue that this lack of predation just shows that cougars realise they can't kill a bison the majority of the time." Exactly, you're right again. Gosh! Look at me, how could ANACONDIA ever be wrong? Like, they are ALWAYS right! I take it they've never heard of the sayings "things are not as they appear", "all that glitters is not gold", "you can't judge a book by its cover", and "many people look, but few people see." I agree with ANACONDIA. I too think that the STARK absence of leopard predation on bantengs in Cambodia when ONLY tigers were still existent was proof that the leopards themselves knew that they could NEVER kill adult bantengs. Incidentally, it just happens that when the tigers went the way of the dinosaurs, and the leopards didn’t have to worry about looking over their backs to make sure their big brother, a striped tyrant wasn't waiting to come and eat the fruit of their labour, the huge adult males began to make bantengs their daily bread. But, pardon me! It just so happens that ONLY ONE dominant predator was sufficient to basically make bantengs "IMMUNE" to leopard predation, but cougars that live in an even more tyrannical landscape governed by not one, but THREE enemies on every side, right, left, and centre are expected to put their life on the line, to contend with something as hideously powerful as an American bison as the SOLE proof that they can. Oh, and by the way, did I forget to tell you that if cougars do not live up to ANACONDIA and other narrow-minded dudes' expectations, the ONLY conclusion that can be drawn is that cougars do not have the ABILITY to prey on bison. You don't see it because you're effectively "short-sighted" (I don't mean that in a bad way). How many times do I have to remind you that I am specifically talking about cougars that weigh 80 to 100 kg. I know lol. I just don't see how a 85-odd kg cougar could subdue an animal that can weigh over 700 kg. This is frustrating honestly. Each cougar in the 80-100 kg range has the power to kill a bison 5 to 7 times the value ITS OWN weight. I wouldn’t select an 85 kg cougar for a 700 kilogram bison. We might need to be talking about a 100 kg cougar. And even then, I concede that it would fail the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of the time. But, hypothetically, theoretically, "paperly" (on pen and paper), and heaven knows, maybe realistically too, it is possible. An 85 kg cougar if we base our judgments on what other big cats have done should max out at 595 kg, and no further. But more realistically it would do very good at 425 kg and sometimes even reach 510 kg. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2023 12:17:59 GMT
I know lol. I just don't see how a 85-odd kg cougar could subdue an animal that can weigh over 700 kg. And even then, I concede that it would fail the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of the time. But, hypothetically, theoretically, "paperly" (on pen and paper), and heaven knows, maybe realistically too, it is possible. How many times would the cougar succeed in your eyes? 1 in every 10 attempts? 1 in every 50 attempts? 1 in every 100 attempts? |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 12:45:31 GMT
And even then, I concede that it would fail the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of the time. But, hypothetically, theoretically, "paperly" (on pen and paper), and heaven knows, maybe realistically too, it is possible. How many times would the cougar succeed in your eyes? 1 in every 10 attempts? 1 in every 50 attempts? 1 in every 100 attempts? It's hard to give a definitive figure. But, what I would say is that they would succeed with just the same success rate with which tigers and leopards have succeeded on water buffaloes, gaurs and bantengs at that prey: predator weight ratio. Remember that this is not the USUAL ratio, but it's not exactly wrong to bring it into the picture because we have seen big cats effectively "tell us" with their teeth, claws, and ninja skills that it is possible. If a tiger can kill a gaur up to 7 times its weight, you answer from the very deepest recesses of your heart, from your heart of hearts, is it unreasonable to say that a cat of equal killing finesse (and which might be proportionately stronger than a tiger for all you care, as evidenced by the fact that they can coexist with equal-sized jaguars on an equal footing, can even sometimes "put jaguars in their place" or "call them to order", and have a higher REGULAR prey: predator weight ratio than ALL other big cats as explicitly written in scientific literature based on actual field observations), can do the same to another wild cattle beast which despite being physically stronger than a gaur, might actually be inferior to a gaur in its capacity to fight a predator on account of CENTURIES of not having any serious predator which might have led to a sort of "complacency" or "letting of guard down", AT THE EXACT same prey to predator weight ratio at which tigers have killed the cattle species they share habitat with? |
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Post by grampa on Aug 24, 2023 12:33:52 GMT
Remember... Brown bear interaction with other animals.
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Aug 31, 2023 22:43:42 GMT
So, grampa is the same as brobear ? I thought Brobear already had an account on this forum? Men, the DOTB guys are very mysterious. |
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Post by oldgreengrolar on Sept 1, 2023 8:25:14 GMT
So, grampa is the same as brobear ? I thought Brobear already had an account on this forum? Men, the DOTB guys are very mysterious. Grampa is Brobear and this is his only account on the forum if not mistaken, unless he lost the password for the previous one. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Sept 1, 2023 10:44:19 GMT
So, grampa is the same as brobear ? I thought Brobear already had an account on this forum? Men, the DOTB guys are very mysterious. Grampa is Brobear and this is his only account on the forum if not mistaken, unless he lost the password for the previous one. It's more like he lost the password for the previous one, because if you check the members list, you will see another account by the name of "Brobear" which used this forum earlier this year. |
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Post by oldgreengrolar on Sept 1, 2023 13:17:44 GMT
Grampa is Brobear and this is his only account on the forum if not mistaken, unless he lost the password for the previous one. It's more like he lost the password for the previous one, because if you check the members list, you will see another account by the name of "Brobear" which used this forum earlier this year. I have already seen it after checking through the members’ list. |
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