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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 9:16:06 GMT
So, when it comes to hunting healthy adult American bison, cougars would unquestionably be far superior to wolf packs (that ALMOST ALWAYS ONLY prey on extraordinarily weakened individuals anyway) which in turn are considerably better than grizzly bears. I wouldn't agree with that. Accounts of cougars killing bison at all (young, weak, sick etc.) are rare. At least wolves actually do kill bison from time-to-time, at a far higher rate than cougars do. And while big cats can certainly kill large herbivores (maybe better than dogs in some scenarios), they tend to be a less successful animal at the end of the day. AWDs have a success rate of 90%. That makes them the most effective wild land predator on Earth. Lions have a success rate of 25-30%, Cougars 20%, and Tigers a mere 5%. Now, I'm not saying that other dog species have the same success rate as the AWD (because they don't). Wolves range from 5-28%, Dholes about 20%. Every dog I just mentioned -roughly- had a higher success rate than the cats found in the same region e.g. lion 25%, AWD 90%. Of course the wolf one is arguable, I'd like to know the success rate of specific wolves native to NA. Anyways what I'm saying is, while certain cats may be more effective at taking large herbivores (debatable), that doesn't make them more successful predators in general. P.S. Cougars usually lose to Wolf packs and Bears: news.mongabay.com/2018/02/mountain-lions-often-lose-to-wolves-and-bears-study-finds/"I wouldn't agree with that." Firstly, let me respectfully establish that whether you agree or not is not of any relevance (it may be to you as an individual, but ultimately, it counts for nothing in the much bigger picture). It has nothing to do with you agreeing or not. It's about a pattern that replicates itself in virtually every other big cat-canid-bear ecosystem. And since it keeps recurring, it is without a doubt a pattern that is established in nature. Your not agreeing with it, will not change it by even the most negligible amount. With all due respect. I remember posting the link to my third answer on Quora about the reason why cougars do not prey on bison. So this "accounts of cougars killing bison at all (young, weak, sick etc) are rare" is pretty much a meaningless statement. I also brought in a real life case study of a predator that basically NEVER preyed on a certain cattle species until when the biological factor that between it and said cattle species was taken out of the way. So, you do realise the "cougars never kill bison because they cannot" is a statement that only a very foolish person can make right? Because, there is a real life case study that proves that logic to be blatantly stupid. I'm not talking about the rate at which wolves or cougars killing bison, I'm talking about who is overall better equipped to do it. And it's hands down the cougar. I know cougars do not prey on bison, what I'm saying is that if the factors that prevented them from doing so were taken out of the equation, and they have a conducive environment, and they started to prey on bison, they would do a far better job than wolf packs. In fact, unlike wolves, they would not demote themselves to preying only on the weak and helpless. Success rate has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Dragonflies have a success rate of 97%, I guess that makes them better at hunting cape buffaloes than lions do right? You're comparing apples to oranges. African wild dogs and lions do not EXACTLY prey on the same animals. Wild dogs for the most part are impala, lechwe and wildebeest hunters. On SUPER RARE occasions would the thought of killing a near death cape buffalo even cross their minds. For crying out loud, black-footed cats have a success rate of 62%, does that make them better adapted to kill buffalo than lions are? Point is that success rate had no business coming into this. It is of below zero relevance. Cougars may have a lower success rate than wolves and bears, nobody gives a care in the world about that. Do they actually have better skills and weaponry to bring down large prey than any other carnivore in their realm? Absolutely they do. They are by far and away better at hunting healthy and uncompromised adult American bison than any other land carnivore in North America in the sense that a healthy 400 kg bison has MUCH MORE to fear from an 80 kg cougar that it has from a wolf pack or grizzly bear. It's just a fact. And about cougars being dominated by wolves and bears, is there anybody that sees that as news? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2023 9:31:41 GMT
I wouldn't agree with that. Accounts of cougars killing bison at all (young, weak, sick etc.) are rare. At least wolves actually do kill bison from time-to-time, at a far higher rate than cougars do. And while big cats can certainly kill large herbivores (maybe better than dogs in some scenarios), they tend to be a less successful animal at the end of the day. AWDs have a success rate of 90%. That makes them the most effective wild land predator on Earth. Lions have a success rate of 25-30%, Cougars 20%, and Tigers a mere 5%. Now, I'm not saying that other dog species have the same success rate as the AWD (because they don't). Wolves range from 5-28%, Dholes about 20%. Every dog I just mentioned -roughly- had a higher success rate than the cats found in the same region e.g. lion 25%, AWD 90%. Of course the wolf one is arguable, I'd like to know the success rate of specific wolves native to NA. Anyways what I'm saying is, while certain cats may be more effective at taking large herbivores (debatable), that doesn't make them more successful predators in general. P.S. Cougars usually lose to Wolf packs and Bears: news.mongabay.com/2018/02/mountain-lions-often-lose-to-wolves-and-bears-study-finds/They are by far and away better at hunting healthy and uncompromised adult American bison than any other land carnivore in North America in the sense that a healthy 400 kg bison has MUCH MORE to fear from an 80 kg cougar that it has from a wolf pack or grizzly bear. It's just a fact. That's complete BS lol. You're being completely bias. A wolf pack would be of far more harm to a bison than a single cougar would be. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2023 9:33:46 GMT
I wouldn't agree with that. Accounts of cougars killing bison at all (young, weak, sick etc.) are rare. At least wolves actually do kill bison from time-to-time, at a far higher rate than cougars do. And while big cats can certainly kill large herbivores (maybe better than dogs in some scenarios), they tend to be a less successful animal at the end of the day. AWDs have a success rate of 90%. That makes them the most effective wild land predator on Earth. Lions have a success rate of 25-30%, Cougars 20%, and Tigers a mere 5%. Now, I'm not saying that other dog species have the same success rate as the AWD (because they don't). Wolves range from 5-28%, Dholes about 20%. Every dog I just mentioned -roughly- had a higher success rate than the cats found in the same region e.g. lion 25%, AWD 90%. Of course the wolf one is arguable, I'd like to know the success rate of specific wolves native to NA. Anyways what I'm saying is, while certain cats may be more effective at taking large herbivores (debatable), that doesn't make them more successful predators in general. P.S. Cougars usually lose to Wolf packs and Bears: news.mongabay.com/2018/02/mountain-lions-often-lose-to-wolves-and-bears-study-finds/I'm not talking about the rate at which wolves or cougars killing bison, I'm talking about who is overall better equipped to do it. And it's hands down the cougar. I know cougars do not prey on bison, what I'm saying is that if the factors that prevented them from doing so were taken out of the equation, and they have a conducive environment, and they started to prey on bison, they would do a far better job than wolf packs. In fact, unlike wolves, they would not demote themselves to preying only on the weak and helpless. I know but I'm just saying that being able to hunt large herbivores better more than dogs doesn't mean shit when you're a less successful predator at the end of the day. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jul 28, 2023 9:36:58 GMT
I wonder if a really healthy bull Bison has to worry about anything in North America. Probably had to mind their Ps and Qs when Smilodon Fatalis, Dire Wolf packs and American Lions were knocking about (and short faced bears perhaps), but now? Wolves only carefully target the compromised, and for the most part I don't think pumas even look at Bison. The smattering of possible exceptions, which kudos to supercat for finding, are still at the end of the day exceptions. Curious to hear from kevin on that topic. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 9:45:44 GMT
They are by far and away better at hunting healthy and uncompromised adult American bison than any other land carnivore in North America in the sense that a healthy 400 kg bison has MUCH MORE to fear from an 80 kg cougar that it has from a wolf pack or grizzly bear. It's just a fact. That's complete BS lol. You're being completely bias. A wolf pack would be of far more harm to a bison than a single cougar would be. It is ANYTHING but bullshit. I'm being biased for common sense. Cougars have already proven that they are a greater threat to other ungulates like elk and moose than packs of wolves are. So, it's only a daft expectation that wolves would even be remotely close to them when it comes to hunting and killing healthy adult bison. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 9:49:09 GMT
I'm not talking about the rate at which wolves or cougars killing bison, I'm talking about who is overall better equipped to do it. And it's hands down the cougar. I know cougars do not prey on bison, what I'm saying is that if the factors that prevented them from doing so were taken out of the equation, and they have a conducive environment, and they started to prey on bison, they would do a far better job than wolf packs. In fact, unlike wolves, they would not demote themselves to preying only on the weak and helpless. I know but I'm just saying that being able to hunt large herbivores better more than dogs doesn't mean shit when you're a less successful predator at the end of the day. Yes, the same way cheetahs having a success rate of over 50% on gazelles and black-footed cats having a success rate of 62% on MICE makes them more impressive/applaudable/formidable hunters than lions, tigers, jaguars, grizzly bears, and polar bears. Of course, you're so right! 👍 |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2023 9:54:13 GMT
I know but I'm just saying that being able to hunt large herbivores better more than dogs doesn't mean shit when you're a less successful predator at the end of the day. Yes, the same way cheetahs having a success rate of over 50% on gazelles and black-footed cats having a success rate of 62% on MICE makes them more impressive/applaudable/formidable hunters than lions, tigers, jaguars, grizzly bears, and polar bears. Of course, you're so right! 👍 It doesn't mean they're more formidable it just means they're more successful at hunting their prey lol. It has no merit on other factors such as competition from larger predators and defense capabilities. Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 9:54:18 GMT
I wonder if a really healthy bull Bison has to worry about anything in North America. Probably had to mind their Ps and Qs when Smilodon Fatalis, Dire Wolf packs and American Lions were knocking about (and short faced bears perhaps), but now? Wolves only carefully target the compromised, and for the most part I don't think pumas even look at Bison. The smattering of possible exceptions, which kudos to supercat for finding, are still at the end of the day exceptions. Curious to hear from kevin on that topic. Those cases are not even the cornerstone of the evidence that cougars are perfectly built to kill healthy adult bison (at the appropriate size disparity). They are just exceptions like you said. Exceptions that lets us know that they can kill bison regularly. It just needs to be within the same spectrum at which other big cats have proven themselves REMARKABLY proficient at killing wild cattle species (not "bovines" because "bovines" is too generic a word. Sheep and goats are also bovines. It's actually cattle species you are referring to whenever you say "bovines"). You're right. Wolves ONLY target those that are basically easy pickings, those that are just beside the finish line to the next world. Provide the MANDATORY landscapes for cougars, and they would outperform wolves by GAZILLIONS of leagues. Cougars would outperform wolves by an absurdly ridiculous gap because on account of being a big cat, they are designed to knock even the likes of bison to their knees. Again, I don’t know how many times I have to stress this, it only needs to be at the same big cat-wild cattle disparity at which other cougar-like animals have proven themselves AWESOME at killing bison-like animals. I should say I'm disgusted that you guys are even comparing cougars to wolves. Wolves don't scale remotely close to cougars in their finesse at taking large game. If you'll be my guest, I would provide cases upon cases of wolves accomplishing very horrible, unspeakable failures, failures which if cougars were in the wolves' position, the CLOSEST to which they would get to that failure would be ONE BILLION miles. It's well documented in scientific literature that the cougar is by far the most specialised North American carnivore at hunting big game, so the comparison of wolves to cougars is pretty much baseless. Again, I'll refer to section 12 of my last answer before anyone says anything like "but cougars and bison coexist, and cougars don’t prey on bison." |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 9:55:47 GMT
Yes, the same way cheetahs having a success rate of over 50% on gazelles and black-footed cats having a success rate of 62% on MICE makes them more impressive/applaudable/formidable hunters than lions, tigers, jaguars, grizzly bears, and polar bears. Of course, you're so right! 👍 It doesn't mean they're more formidable it just means they're more successful at hunting their prey lol. It has no merit on other factors such as competition from larger predators and defense capabilities. Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk So, in the long run, what EXACT purpose has bringing "success rate" into the conversation served? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2023 10:04:38 GMT
It doesn't mean they're more formidable it just means they're more successful at hunting their prey lol. It has no merit on other factors such as competition from larger predators and defense capabilities. Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk So, in the long run, what EXACT purpose has bringing "success rate" into the conversation served? Lol I've stated this in the posts above. It shows that while certain cats may be better at taking large herbivores, at the end of the day, dogs still have the higher prey-kill rate. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 10:13:46 GMT
So, in the long run, what EXACT purpose has bringing "success rate" into the conversation served? Lol I've stated this in the posts above. It shows that while certain cats may be better at taking large herbivores, at the end of the day, dogs still have the higher prey-kill rate. Okay. Good to hear. I understand now. It would be great if we could call it curtains here. At the end of it all, the fact remains, and nothing anybody says or can ever say will change it: In terms of the abilities of North America's large carnivores to kill healthy, American bison, the ONE AND ONLY accurate ranking is: Cougar >>>>> Wolf pack >>> Grizzly bear. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jul 28, 2023 10:39:00 GMT
I just realised supercat's signature is dedicated to the idea pumas can kill bison. He's all in on this, lol.
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 11:04:53 GMT
I just realised supercat's signature is dedicated to the idea pumas can kill bison. He's all in on this, lol. That's right. Because, it is the honest truth. One that is just so painfully true for cougar-haters who just cannot withstand the thought that this humble "deer killer" can accomplish anything more than "killing a large bull elk on rare occasions." It's just a simple fact. I'm not trying to tease you guys or pull anyone’s legs, or sound ridiculous. I just want you guys to accept cougars for what they are. It’s basically the same way you're frustrated with the way guys on Carnivora disrespect dogs or don't "give them the honour due them" as it were. And I do agree that they indeed disrespect dogs. And that’s quite something, coming from me, a zealous cat fan. That's basically how I feel when I see people say things like "even grizzly bears and wolf packs don’t prey on healthy adult bison" as if to make it look like cougars exist in the shadow of those animals when it comes to killing big game, when nothing could be further from the truth. Washing the soles of a cougar’s feet is FAR too honourable a task to assign to a grizzly bear/wolf pack when it comes to the weaponry, skill, acrobatics with which these animals are endowed to contend with something like American bison. When somebody says something like "even grizzly bears, and wolves..." my response is basically just "and so what? Who gives a rat's arse that they aren’t good enough to kill healthy adult bison?" I mean, cougars prey on horses regularly, bears don’t. They're rather happy to steal from a cougar that has gone through the trouble of subduing a 900-pound ungulate. So, what exactly does "even grizzlies don’t prey on bison" mean? Horses already prove you wrong. That's nature itself saying "you're wrong." Cougars strike a greater fear into the hearts of elk than wolves do (and it's not because of any stupid "management plan", the study on ResearchGate NEVER said anything about wolves deploying any rubbish "management plan". That's just garbage conjured up to save the wolves' skin), so EXACTLY what does "even wolves don't do A and B" mean for a cougar? As we all can see for ourselves from actual scientific journals that are peer-reviewed, cougars command a greater respect from the North American ungulates than wolves/bears do. And I can post more videos and scientific papers if it becomes necessary. So, wolves and bears not being up to the task of killing healthy adult bison only gets an "I feel sorry for you" reaction from cougars, not "wow, even you guys don't touch bison, I would be none the wiser if I even attempted to attack bison." As for the exceptionally stupid "but cougars coexist with bison and don't prey on them, so that means they can’t" argument, I'll refer everyone back to the Cambodian leopard, banteng, and Indochinese tiger study that was made by Susana Rostro-Garcia. The explanation there would show you why you couldn't be more wrong. So, yes, Mr. Hardcastle, I am REALLY into it because it IS a cause worth fighting for. The ONLY accurate ranking that there was, IS and EVER WILL BE of the ability of North American land carnivores to kill HEALTHY and NON-COMPROMISED ADULT American bison is: Cougar >>>>>>>> Wolf Pack >>> Grizzly bear. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jul 28, 2023 11:12:59 GMT
I can agree that a big tom cougar is definitely a better killer than a grizzly bear and MAYBE a wolf pack (and I do empathise with the "even blah blah struggle, so NO WAY can ...", that drives me nuts), but I still fall just a little short of believing puma are actually well equipped to kill healthy adult Bison. I'll need more than a few anecdotal historical accounts with limited details. They seem to mostly not prey on Bison, or even cattle. I'll leave the door open, but need more.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2023 11:25:05 GMT
I just realised supercat's signature is dedicated to the idea pumas can kill bison. He's all in on this, lol. That's right. Because, it is the honest truth. One that is just so painfully true for cougar-haters who just cannot withstand the thought that this humble "deer killer" can accomplish anything more than "killing a large bull elk on rare occasions." It's just a simple fact. I'm not trying to tease you guys or pull anyone’s legs, or sound ridiculous. I just want you guys to accept cougars for what they are. It’s basically the same way you're frustrated with the way guys on Carnivora disrespect dogs or don't "give them the honour due them" as it were. And I do agree that they indeed disrespect dogs. And that’s quite something, coming from me, a zealous cat fan. That's basically how I feel when I see people say things like "even grizzly bears and wolf packs don’t prey on healthy adult bison" as if to make it look like cougars exist in the shadow of those animals when it comes to killing big game, when nothing could be further from the truth. Washing the soles of a cougar’s feet is FAR too honourable a task to assign to a grizzly bear/wolf pack when it comes to the weaponry, skill, acrobatics with which these animals are endowed to contend with something like American bison. When somebody says something like "even grizzly bears, and wolves..." my response is basically just "and so what? Who gives a rat's arse that they aren’t good enough to kill healthy adult bison?" I mean, cougars prey on horses regularly, bears don’t. They're rather happy to steal from a cougar that has gone through the trouble of subduing a 900-pound ungulate. So, what exactly does "even grizzlies don’t prey on bison" mean? Horses already prove you wrong. That's nature itself saying "you're wrong." Cougars strike a greater fear into the hearts of elk than wolves do (and it's not because of any stupid "management plan", the study on ResearchGate NEVER said anything about wolves deploying any rubbish "management plan". That's just garbage conjured up to save the wolves' skin), so EXACTLY what does "even wolves don't do A and B" mean for a cougar? As we all can see for ourselves from actual scientific journals that are peer-reviewed, cougars command a greater respect from the North American ungulates than wolves/bears do. And I can post more videos and scientific papers if it becomes necessary. So, wolves and bears not being up to the task of killing healthy adult bison only gets an "I feel sorry for you" reaction from cougars, not "wow, even you guys don't touch bison, I would be none the wiser if I even attempted to attack bison." As for the exceptionally stupid "but cougars coexist with bison and don't prey on them, so that means they can’t" argument, I'll refer everyone back to the Cambodian leopard, banteng, and Indochinese tiger study that was made by Susana Rostro-Garcia. The explanation there would show you why you couldn't be more wrong. So, yes, Mr. Hardcastle, I am REALLY into it because it IS a cause worth fighting for. The ONLY accurate ranking that there was, IS and EVER WILL BE of the ability of North American land carnivores to kill HEALTHY and NON-COMPROMISED ADULT American bison is: Cougar >>>>>>>> Wolf Pack >>> Grizzly bear. I still don't see how one cougar is supposed to be a better bison-killer than like five to nine wolves. Like we literally have videos of wolves killing bison, yet there's almost nothing on cougars killing bison. Doesn't that just prove that wolves are the better bison-killers? It could be argued that we don't know if cougars are better at subduing bison or not BECAUSE of this lack of predation. But I'd argue that this lack of predation just shows that cougars realise they can't kill a bison the majority of the time. |
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