Polar bear vs Kodiak bear

[Deleted]

Ah yes, this match-up is always entertaining.

Anyways, the two strongest land carnivores go head-to-head (for the millionth time), who wins?

[Hardcastle]

I'd love to see a really good honest size comparison of the biggest coastal brown bear and the biggest male polar bear.

Even though I'm a polar bear fan and consider it a superior predator, I've basically conceded that the brown bear is just scrappier and more tank like, and then with the largest brown bears (like "kodiaks" for example, coastal pacific NW in general) they would probably beat polar bears. I never bothered to argue about it one way or another, but yeah a legit "max" size comparison would put my mind at ease.

[theundertaker45]

I'll try to do a proper comparison between the two but don't know when it will be done. I've done a few but I want to do like a really nice one where all the measurements are given. Length over curves, length in a straight line, chest girth, skull size, body weight, shoulder height. I also want to see them from the front, not just from the side. So this would be a bigger project. It's also important to find two prime individuals with the typical proportions of two prime males and finding pictures fitting those proportions takes a long time usually. I'll definitely post it here when I'm done. If I get it right, it will be amazing.

In general, I am inclined to believe the polar bear should win. Roughly 1000kg vs 750kg via hunting records; roughly 800kg vs 640kg via scientific records. The biggest brown bears are typically specimens weighed in autumn with a good amount fat, similar to the polar bear. So the argument "the polar bear is fatter and thus heavier" is blatantly wrong, he is a good deal longer, taller (moderate difference) and packs more lean mass; the weight advantage doesn't come from fat but from his bigger dimensions. From the previous comparisons I did you could definitely see that. Although the Kodiak bear retained his larger head and bigger neck he was outclassed by the polar bear in every other department. Especially in the limbs and the butt; it was a really staggering difference.

Regarding the weight difference, from what I've seen at equal stage of maturity between the two it should be closer to the difference in hunting records than in scientific records. It should be between 30-35% in favor of the polar bear. On both ends of the field, monster males get seldomly weighed. In the Kodiak's case it is difficult luring a large and experienced bear into an area where he can be successfully sedated. Also, moving through the woods with heavy scales weighing 200lbs isn't easy. In the polar bear's case the monster males are too heavy to be weighed. It's as simple as that. Several of over 800kg couldn't be lifted by a helicopter scale. 

Many internet users think polar bears are slim looking bears with thin necks. I recommend you to think again. Below I'll post two profile shots. One of an enormous Katmai male (dominant in his area for many years) and one of an enormous male polar bear called "Stan". The biggest per scientific records at a weight of 803kg. The neck on the polar bear looks heavily muscled and the skull has a reasonable thickness. We are talking about a Foxe Basin polar bear in this case, pound for pound they might be the most impressive population but that's a story for another thread.

Anyways, even though I believe the baddest male polar bear could kill the baddest male Kodiak bear it would be a cruel slugfest and an extremely tense fight. I have no problem with people favoring the Kodiak bear. I can see the importance of a huge head, thick neck and possibly superior stamina making the difference. On the other hand, polar bears are professional killers and kill for a living. All of the females and subadults killed by males couldn't put up much of a resistance; one bite through the skull and they were finished. I've seen documentary footage of an enormous brown bear kill a female too. He locked his jaws onto her throat and ripped it out. She was dead after 10 seconds. So each of them has his own ways of approaching things but I am of the opinion that if you give the professional killer a sizeable weight advantage of pure lean mass, he'll get the job done more often than not. After all, he's still a bear, he's still built for brute strength (though not as much as a brown bear, polar bears are surprisingly agile at times) and he pulls 1000kg beluga whales out of the water, females have done so too. So yeah, a very good fight but my vote goes to the Arctic monarch. When talking about weight parity and this can definitely happen, I'll have to give it to the brown bear. A polar bear in my opinion wouldn't possess the physical capacity to endure the brown bear's tenaciousness. At equal weights it wouldn't be a mismatch by any means (a lot of people tend to think so from what I've seen) but I'd be quite confident in betting on the brown bear. The same way I'd be confident in betting on a jaguar against a cougar at equal weights.

I didn't pay attention to the real-life dimensions in this picture, so forget this aspect please; but there is something about those dominant bears with their small, black eyes which makes them intimidating from just looking at their face through the screen. 

[Deleted]

This is a bear that's actually been weighed at 1400 pounds. It can barely walk, I'd favor a 1400 pound polar bear over this monstrosity at these weights

[theundertaker45]

@dorado

I've just seen your post after finishing mine; I agree with you. "747 Colbert" would be one of the worst examples of what a 1400lbs would look like at maximum fighting capacity. He's smaller in frame than other very large bears at Brooks Falls but each year he turns into a balloon and is by far the fattest male of all. When he's in shape, he looks pretty athletic and fit. But he's off the really large bears in terms of length or height. Probably the biggest bear at Katmai was "Bald Butt" followed by "Norman" who displaced him as the dominant male. Those two were huge in frame (park rangers said they were about as big as brown bears can get) and they didn't look completely obese unless in late autumn. Until August you could see how in-shape they were, probably a reason for their dominance. Here is a comparison on how 747 looks before hibernating and how he looks when emerging at the falls for catching his salmon:

[Deleted]

Feb 6, 2023 19:52:44 GMT @ling said:

Ah yes, this match-up is always entertaining.

Anyways, the two strongest land carnivores go head-to-head (for the millionth time), who wins?

We have attachments back, add pictures or me and Hardcastle will mow down you and everyone who has ever associated with you with assault rifles.

[Deleted]

Feb 6, 2023 23:06:08 GMT @dorado said:

This is a bear that's actually been weighed at 1400 pounds. It can barely walk, I'd favor a 1400 pound polar bear over this monstrosity at these weights

Fatass. I bet he gets bullied by coyotes.

[Hardcastle]

Feb 6, 2023 23:47:06 GMT Bolushi said:

Feb 6, 2023 19:52:44 GMT @ling said:

Ah yes, this match-up is always entertaining.

Anyways, the two strongest land carnivores go head-to-head (for the millionth time), who wins?

We have attachments back, add pictures or me and Hardcastle will mow down you and everyone who has ever associated with you with assault rifles.

I don't co-sign that.

[Deleted]

Feb 6, 2023 23:50:29 GMT Bolushi said:

Feb 6, 2023 23:06:08 GMT @dorado said:

This is a bear that's actually been weighed at 1400 pounds. It can barely walk, I'd favor a 1400 pound polar bear over this monstrosity at these weights

Fatass. I bet he gets bullied by coyotes.

apparentely he's the top bear at brooks falls these days, 
but still funny because he got clapped hard by the younger and faster bear 68 here



Thankfully bear fights are usually very chill. 



Hence why bear 747 and bear 856 have been dominant over brooks falls for 10 years while the mapogos reign only lasted 2-3 years

[Deleted]

Feb 6, 2023 23:51:29 GMT Hardcastle said:

Feb 6, 2023 23:47:06 GMT Bolushi said:

We have attachments back, add pictures or me and Hardcastle will mow down you and everyone who has ever associated with you with assault rifles.

I don't co-sign that.

🔫 When did I give you options?

[Deleted]

Feb 6, 2023 23:56:53 GMT @dorado said:

Feb 6, 2023 23:50:29 GMT Bolushi said:

Fatass. I bet he gets bullied by coyotes.

apparentely he's the top bear at brooks falls these days, 
but still funny because he got clapped hard by the younger and faster bear 68 here



Thankfully bear fights are usually very chill. 



Hence why bear 747 and bear 856 have been dominant over brooks falls for 10 years while the mapogos reign only lasted 2-3 years

If I could be any wild animal I'd be a grizz, their lives are so easy and chill and once they grow into adulthood death is nearly impossible.

[Deleted]

Feb 6, 2023 23:01:29 GMT theundertaker45 said:

I'll try to do a proper comparison between the two but don't know when it will be done. I've done a few but I want to do like a really nice one where all the measurements are given. Length over curves, length in a straight line, chest girth, skull size, body weight, shoulder height. I also want to see them from the front, not just from the side. So this would be a bigger project. It's also important to find two prime individuals with the typical proportions of two prime males and finding pictures fitting those proportions takes a long time usually. I'll definitely post it here when I'm done. If I get it right, it will be amazing.

In general, I am inclined to believe the polar bear should win. Roughly 1000kg vs 750kg via hunting records; roughly 800kg vs 640kg via scientific records. The biggest brown bears are typically specimens weighed in autumn with a good amount fat, similar to the polar bear. So the argument "the polar bear is fatter and thus heavier" is blatantly wrong, he is a good deal longer, taller (moderate difference) and packs more lean mass; the weight advantage doesn't come from fat but from his bigger dimensions. From the previous comparisons I did you could definitely see that. Although the Kodiak bear retained his larger head and bigger neck he was outclassed by the polar bear in every other department. Especially in the limbs and the butt; it was a really staggering difference.

Regarding the weight difference, from what I've seen at equal stage of maturity between the two it should be closer to the difference in hunting records than in scientific records. It should be between 30-35% in favor of the polar bear. On both ends of the field, monster males get seldomly weighed. In the Kodiak's case it is difficult luring a large and experienced bear into an area where he can be successfully sedated. Also, moving through the woods with heavy scales weighing 200lbs isn't easy. In the polar bear's case the monster males are too heavy to be weighed. It's as simple as that. Several of over 800kg couldn't be lifted by a helicopter scale. 

Many internet users think polar bears are slim looking bears with thin necks. I recommend you to think again. Below I'll post two profile shots. One of an enormous Katmai male (dominant in his area for many years) and one of an enormous male polar bear called "Stan". The biggest per scientific records at a weight of 803kg. The neck on the polar bear looks heavily muscled and the skull has a reasonable thickness. We are talking about a Foxe Basin polar bear in this case, pound for pound they might be the most impressive population but that's a story for another thread.

Anyways, even though I believe the baddest male polar bear could kill the baddest male Kodiak bear it would be a cruel slugfest and an extremely tense fight. I have no problem with people favoring the Kodiak bear. I can see the importance of a huge head, thick neck and possibly superior stamina making the difference. On the other hand, polar bears are professional killers and kill for a living. All of the females and subadults killed by males couldn't put up much of a resistance; one bite through the skull and they were finished. I've seen documentary footage of an enormous brown bear kill a female too. He locked his jaws onto her throat and ripped it out. She was dead after 10 seconds. So each of them has his own ways of approaching things but I am of the opinion that if you give the professional killer a sizeable weight advantage of pure lean mass, he'll get the job done more often than not. After all, he's still a bear, he's still built for brute strength (though not as much as a brown bear, polar bears are surprisingly agile at times) and he pulls 1000kg beluga whales out of the water, females have done so too. So yeah, a very good fight but my vote goes to the Arctic monarch. When talking about weight parity and this can definitely happen, I'll have to give it to the brown bear. A polar bear in my opinion wouldn't possess the physical capacity to endure the brown bear's tenaciousness. At equal weights it wouldn't be a mismatch by any means (a lot of people tend to think so from what I've seen) but I'd be quite confident in betting on the brown bear. The same way I'd be confident in betting on a jaguar against a cougar at equal weights.

I didn't pay attention to the real-life dimensions in this picture, so forget this aspect please; but there is something about those dominant bears with their small, black eyes which makes them intimidating from just looking at their face through the screen. 

That's the way I see it completely, at their respective weights I'd favour the polar bear and at parity I'd favour the brown bear. But the p4p difference is modest enough to say the polar bear wins with a moderate lean mass weight advantage. Anyway nicely explained.

So the polar bear has more robust limbs and hind, while the brown bear has more robust head and neck. Interesting. You can see the limbs of a polar bear how thick they are. The hind robusticity is an interesting twist, I guess more pushing power. And if they're anything like humans the glutes are the biggest muscle in the body and accounts for a lot of our functional strength. Lats are the biggest muscle in our upper body.

But if I'm grading all body parts I'd consider the head and neck to count for most when it comes to a square fight, so yeah "brown bear" at parity. After all their head is the business end.

[Deleted]

@undertaker I'd have to say fat mass still counts though, if you take two bears of equal lean mass with one having more fat mass, the bear with more fat mass has the advantage. Same with people. Of course lean mass counts for more than fat mass, but fat mass just by itself still counts, and for quite a lot where there's a lot more fat mass. On a side note fatter animals (and humans) tend to have more muscle mass to begin with so they tend to be stronger. It's why the best strongmen don't cut down like bodybuilders, they can't retain the same muscle mass (hence strength) when they do so. Bodybuilders always lose some muscle mass during the cutting down process for competition.

[Hardcastle]

I will say the movement of the polar bear seems notably superior, like I've never seen a brown bear "leap" I don't think? And polars can run and leap quite gracefully.
They also seem to kill bigger things more regularly and more efficiently.

By eye test, however, the big brown bears look more durable and better able to "tank" punishment, I also percieve a more surly "quarrelsome" temperament, like they fight a lot and are ready and comfortable to fight.

It's a bit like coyote vs dhole in that I think the Dhole is more impressive as an athlete and as a predator, but I think the coyote is more scrappy and fight happy and the dhole almost doesn't seem to register what a fight is.

Polar bears DO ofcourse fight, but ... I dunno, the browns seems to have more fighting as part of their day to day lives and it seems well reflected in their nature and perhaps even their body.

I welcome being wrong, I wish I was wrong. I prefer polar bears.

[Deleted]

A kodiak bear would win practically every time IMO. Smaller grizzlies already do, and they ambush hibernating female polar bears and kill them. Not to give them too many points for it but I've never heard of the reverse happening.