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Post by Bolushi on Mar 3, 2023 23:05:30 GMT
I am not disputing that a cougar might be able to kill a boar, but there is not really much evidence of them killing adults compared to leopards. Here are some of the confirmed cases of leopards managing to kill an adult wild boar. India:  source: Majumder, Aniruddha, 2011, “Prey selection, food habits and population structure of sympatric cornivores: Tiger panthera tigris tigris (L.), Leopard Panthera pardus (L.) and Dhole Cuon alpinus (Pallas) in Pench Tiger Reserve, Madhya Pradesh (India)”, thesis PhD, Saurashtra University It states here that Male Wild Boars made up 2.8% of Leopard kills, and females made 1.8 % of Leopard kills. Iran: Persian Leopards killed Six Wild Boar. " Four of 6 wild pig remains were young adults (< 2 years)." Here is confirmation that two of the pigs killed were adults.  Farhadinia, M. S., Johnson, P. J., Hunter, L. T., & Macdonald, D. W. (2018). Persian leopard predation patterns and kill rates in the Iran–Turkmenistan borderland. Journal of Mammalogy, 99(3), 713-723. Siberia: As can be seen, Brown Bears killed 31 adult male Boars, Tigers killed 9 adult male Boars and Leopards killed 1 adult male Ussuri(?) Boar. On the other hand Wolves and Lynx avoided adult male Boar.  Not sure about the source since this was posted by brobear on a bear based forum. Sri Lanka:  ^ There was only one adult wild boar killed by a Leopard compared to three Sambar stags. Source: Kittle, Andrew et. al. The ecology and behaviour of a protected area Sri Lankan leopard (Panthera pardus kotiya) population. Tropical Ecology 58(1):71-86 February 2017 Unline the leopard, there is not a proper confirmation of cougars killing adult boar. Chile: " The puma predominantly predated on juveniles and the percentages of consumption varied between 17-37% depending on the method used to analyze the content of prey present in their feces." "The largest native prey of the puma in the study area is the pudu, an animal that does not exceeds 10 kg of body mass (Muñoz & Yánez 2000), while the average of the body mass of prey (native and exotic) of pumas delivered for forests coastal and Andean regions of southern Chile is 7.7 kg (Rau & Jiménez 2002). For its part, juvenile European wild boars in the area of study present a body mass of 20-50 kg (Skewes 1990), which corresponds to what observed ford in the case of the animal carcass hunted by cougar found on the ground in August 1988. Maehr et al. (1990) report of a body mass of 23 kg for pig feral, eaten by puma in Florida, USA." " In a single opportunity they met remains of European wild boar hunted by cougars. On July 10, 1988 in the Valle sector Beautiful (40º02'17 ”S, 71º57'34” W, 513 masl) the fresh carcass of a juvenile was found (wild boar) of an estimated age between six and eight months old, which kept part of the mandible and the maxillary-nasal of the skull, along with almost complete skin, not existing major bones or pair muscle tees." Skewes, O., Moraga, C. A., Arriagada, P., & Rau, J. R. (2012). The European wild boar (Sus scrofa): a biological invader as a recent prey of the American puma (Puma concolor) in southern Chile. Revista Chilena de Historia Natural, 85(2), 227-232. Brazil: " During a study of the impacts of wild boars on vegetation, mammals and birds of the Atlantic Forest (Hegel & Marini, 2013; Hegel, 2017), we found three apparent predation events upon both juveniles and piglets by the puma (Puma concolor) in the northeast of State of Rio Grande do Sul, southern Brazil." Ara- curi-Esmeralda, Muitos Cap~oes municipality) (28°13040.7″S; 51°09049.1″W), and another in September 2015 on a post- harvest corn plantation also at Muitos Cap~oes (28°16021.0″S; 51°14048.4″W) (Fig. 1a). Both set of faeces had typical hair of wild boar piglets and small hoof fragments, and puma footprints were found nearby. The second set of evidence was a fresh, partially eaten carcass of a juvenile wild boar, found in March 2013 inside a forest fragment at the municipality of Dois Lajeados (29°00004.6″S; 51°46026.8″W) (Fig. 1b). The carcass was partially covered with leaves and twigs (typical caching behaviour of pumas), had an almost intact skull, small bite marks in the neck, wild boar hairs around the carcass, crushed and broken bones, and puma footprints near the carcass.Hegel, C. G. Z., & Marini, M. Â. (2018). Large felids as predators of wild boars in the Atlantic Forest: reconciling Verdade et al. and Rosa et al. Animal Conservation, 21(5), 363-364. Florida, USA: The best study of Panthers predating is from Maehr et. al. 1990. However, he does not specify the age/gender of the Pigs killed. Maehr does include the weights of two Wild Pigs killed in a slightly older study, which are both juveniles. " All scats collected on Fisheating Creek contained hog hair. On 20 April 1984 a freshly killed pig approximately 3.6 kg was found. The carcass was extensively utilized leaving only the snout forward of the eyes and a neat pile of intestines nearby. On 10 August 1984 an approximately 23 kg male hog was found with only the internal organs and ribs consumed. Neither hog was covered as is the typical fashion of the species (Shaw 1979)." source: SIGN SURVEYS FOR FLORIDA PANTHERS ON PERIPHERAL AREAS OF THEIR KNOWN RANGE JAYDEC. ROOF AND DAVIDS. MAEHR Florida Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission, 566 Commercial Blvd., Naples, Florida 33 Now I am not disputing a cougar can kill a boar, but a leopard does have more confirmed kills so the edge goes to the pantherine. Well, sure. Both Pumas and Leopards prefer sub-adult/piglet specimens as opposed to adults. The video I posted a few responses ago was indeed an adult boar, and I have a picture that was posted on wildfact of a female Cougar chasing a much larger adult boar, and another of a smaller boar being chased in Florida. Many institutions that study boar/Puma interactions also mention the Puma's ability to kill adults but never flat out give a discrept account. Someone would have to personally contact people in the know, such as Davis Mountains researchers in Texas, or Floridian Panther researchers to get a clear answer. I'm 100% there are a multitude of accounts 100%. & the places that say Puma's "avoid adults" (according to the researchers) are small south american Puma's, similar to Indian Leopard's (which is to be expected) Floridian and Texas populations however always specifiy the predation on younger individuals as "frequent" whereas adult predation is rare- which is to be expected and automatically assumes that it DID happen during the study but was simply never specifically addressed. I also have a picture of an adult female boar's skull belonging to an individual that was killed by a Puma in brazil, i know it was an ADULT female because the researcher elaborated that the Puma killed the female and than killed her 2 piglets right afterwards. The skull of the Boar showed skull fractures indicating that the adult female boar was killed via skull bite. I'll see if I can find it, it was posted on carnivora at some point. I know peccaries aren't boar, but they are similar. In certain areas Pumas actually prefer peccary over whitetail deer, even if there was an abundance of deer they strictly went after adult peccaries. Which even if they're smaller than boar shows an impressive feat pertaining to favoring suid-like prey items. And yes, a big male Cougar is absolutely capable of killing a male boar. Why wouldn't they? They got stronger forelimbs and comparable neck sizes and chest sizes to Leopard's, nothing other than a lack of gall would really stop them from winning that fight. (And I once again don't know how to post pictures on here otherwise I would've been doing that...) South American cougars are plenty big, no smaller than North American ones. Anyone who knows cougars well whatsoever knows this, anyone who has seen a cougar in North America in comparison knows this. I have. Peccaries are "similar" to boars the same way ocelots are "similar" to leopards. "I seen a red tailed hawk kill an ocelot once, no doubt it could definitely kill a leopard." See how stupid that sounds? Why wouldn't they? Who knows, they never ever prey on adults in Texas. The ones in South America outright avoid adult boars. Hardcastle has the study. |
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Post by Colein on Mar 3, 2023 23:08:07 GMT
What if I told you they are the same animal but one was 7kgs larger on average and maximums with stronger arms? What if I told you they are the same animal but one was more combative, more dominant, less cowardly, more intimidating with a larger skull and more powerful hind legs? The cougar's arms aren't even stronger FYI. What if I told you Leopard's have lost to street dogs in fights that they engaged in on their own terms and that Pumas actually have more robust skulls for their size with larger sagittal crests that allow them to crush skulls (leopards cant or won't do this btw) with more robust canines designed to withstand large amounts of bite force? Did I also mention that on average a Leopard skull and Puma skull will be equal in skull zygomatic width (the only measurement that matters) with the Leopard's skull only being longer and therefore less effective in bite force? What if I also told you that Pumas are more intraspecifically combative seeing as they kill eachother more often in territorial fights and that Pumas hunt larger and more dangerous prey on average while also being in competition with wolves- which they kill by skull bite? And Puma's most certaintly do have stronger forelimbs lol. Look up pictures of big male leopards and pumas held up by hunters and look at their forelimbs, dude. It's night and day. It's understandable becuase Pumas are closer to Jaguar's forelimb robustity than is the Leopard... By not an insignificant amount... |
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Post by Bolushi on Mar 3, 2023 23:14:38 GMT
What if I told you they are the same animal but one was more combative, more dominant, less cowardly, more intimidating with a larger skull and more powerful hind legs? The cougar's arms aren't even stronger FYI. What if I told you Leopard's have lost to street dogs in fights that they engaged in on their own terms and that Pumas actually have more robust skulls for their size with larger sagittal crests that allow them to crush skulls (leopards cant or won't do this btw) with more robust canines designed to withstand large amounts of bite force? Did I also mention that on average a Leopard skull and Puma skull will be equal in skull zygomatic width (the only measurement that matters) with the Leopard's skull only being longer and therefore less effective in bite force? What if I also told you that Pumas are more intraspecifically combative seeing as they kill eachother more often in territorial fights and that Pumas hunt larger and more dangerous prey on average while also being in competition with wolves- which they kill by skull bite? And Puma's most certaintly do have stronger forelimbs lol. Look up pictures of big male leopards and pumas held up by hunters and look at their forelimbs, dude. It's night and day. It's understandable becuase Pumas are closer to Jaguar's forelimb robustity than is the Leopard... By not an insignificant amount... Neither are great fighters, but cougars are worse. Cougars are no more successful against street dogs. Cougars are not more interspecifically combative... not at all. Only in the everglades where 100 cougars are in a 100 square mile box or whatever. Leopards are more combative, they last longer against dogs and fight better. Male cougars ambush female wolves that are totally oblivious to their presence until it's too late. (waiting for the "but this cougar killed a male wolf!!!" cries, the last part is invariably true always) |
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Post by Colein on Mar 3, 2023 23:21:57 GMT
Well, sure. Both Pumas and Leopards prefer sub-adult/piglet specimens as opposed to adults. The video I posted a few responses ago was indeed an adult boar, and I have a picture that was posted on wildfact of a female Cougar chasing a much larger adult boar, and another of a smaller boar being chased in Florida. Many institutions that study boar/Puma interactions also mention the Puma's ability to kill adults but never flat out give a discrept account. Someone would have to personally contact people in the know, such as Davis Mountains researchers in Texas, or Floridian Panther researchers to get a clear answer. I'm 100% there are a multitude of accounts 100%. & the places that say Puma's "avoid adults" (according to the researchers) are small south american Puma's, similar to Indian Leopard's (which is to be expected) Floridian and Texas populations however always specifiy the predation on younger individuals as "frequent" whereas adult predation is rare- which is to be expected and automatically assumes that it DID happen during the study but was simply never specifically addressed. I also have a picture of an adult female boar's skull belonging to an individual that was killed by a Puma in brazil, i know it was an ADULT female because the researcher elaborated that the Puma killed the female and than killed her 2 piglets right afterwards. The skull of the Boar showed skull fractures indicating that the adult female boar was killed via skull bite. I'll see if I can find it, it was posted on carnivora at some point. I know peccaries aren't boar, but they are similar. In certain areas Pumas actually prefer peccary over whitetail deer, even if there was an abundance of deer they strictly went after adult peccaries. Which even if they're smaller than boar shows an impressive feat pertaining to favoring suid-like prey items. And yes, a big male Cougar is absolutely capable of killing a male boar. Why wouldn't they? They got stronger forelimbs and comparable neck sizes and chest sizes to Leopard's, nothing other than a lack of gall would really stop them from winning that fight. (And I once again don't know how to post pictures on here otherwise I would've been doing that...) South American cougars are plenty big, no smaller than North American ones. Anyone who knows cougars well whatsoever knows this, anyone who has seen a cougar in North America in comparison knows this. I have. Peccaries are "similar" to boars the same way ocelots are "similar" to leopards. "I seen a red tailed hawk kill an ocelot once, no doubt it could definitely kill a leopard." See how stupid that sounds? Why wouldn't they? Who knows, they never ever prey on adults in Texas. The ones in South America outright avoid adult boars. Hardcastle has the study. Nope. Pumas in south america are much smaller than their north american cousins. Don't be a moron lol. 60kgs in Argentina is a BIG Puma. 70kgs is a trophy of a lifetime and anything beyond that is relatively unheard of outside of very, very rare individuals. Straight up, I did my homework. I've talked to people that are familiar with pumas in Argentina, 60kgs is indeed a big male... In north america we'd be inclined to assume that to be a sub adult male... It gets worse in brazil. 40kgs for a mature male, maybe 45kgs. 55kgs is a BIG male in brazil. Central america? Same deal. When you speak of "south america" you are thinking of the extremes in Patagonia. Chile. Where pumas are indeed very, very large. But that's it. Outside of that Argentinian pumas are much smaller than the average north american Puma, why? Because of prey biomass, duh. Pumas never ever prey on adults? What a know-it-all you are lol. How about you go bring the riveting revelations that you conjured up from the safety of your bedroom to the researchers that work alongside both animals in texas and florida, and go tell them just how right you are and how wrong they are. I'm sure you'll get through to them one day. Anyway, puma's kill adult boars, we have video and photographic evidence of them doing so and studies proving that they use boar as a primary food source as well as remarks of them hunting adults from researchers. That's all I need. |
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Post by Hammerhead on Mar 3, 2023 23:27:13 GMT
South American cougars are plenty big, no smaller than North American ones. Anyone who knows cougars well whatsoever knows this, anyone who has seen a cougar in North America in comparison knows this. I have. Peccaries are "similar" to boars the same way ocelots are "similar" to leopards. "I seen a red tailed hawk kill an ocelot once, no doubt it could definitely kill a leopard." See how stupid that sounds? Why wouldn't they? Who knows, they never ever prey on adults in Texas. The ones in South America outright avoid adult boars. Hardcastle has the study. Nope. Pumas in south america are much smaller than their north american cousins. Don't be a moron lol. 60kgs in Argentina is a BIG Puma. 70kgs is a trophy of a lifetime and anything beyond that is relatively unheard of outside of very, very rare individuals. Straight up, I did my homework. I've talked to people that are familiar with pumas in Argentina, 60kgs is indeed a big male... In north america we'd be inclined to assume that to be a sub adult male... It gets worse in brazil. 40kgs for a mature male, maybe 45kgs. 55kgs is a BIG male in brazil. Central america? Same deal. When you speak of "south america" you are thinking of the extremes in Patagonia. Chile. Where pumas are indeed very, very large. But that's it. Outside of that Argentinian pumas are much smaller than the average north american Puma, why? Because of prey biomass, duh. Pumas never ever prey on adults? What a know-it-all you are lol. How about you go bring the riveting revelations that you conjured up from the safety of your bedroom to the researchers that work alongside both animals in texas and florida, and go tell them just how right you are and how wrong they are. I'm sure you'll get through to them one day. Anyway, puma's kill adult boars, we have video and photographic evidence of them doing so and studies proving that they use boar as a primary food source as well as remarks of them hunting adults from researchers. That's all I need. Comfylounge, sorry for my childish and moronic insults to you on Carnivora. |
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Post by Colein on Mar 3, 2023 23:28:12 GMT
What if I told you Leopard's have lost to street dogs in fights that they engaged in on their own terms and that Pumas actually have more robust skulls for their size with larger sagittal crests that allow them to crush skulls (leopards cant or won't do this btw) with more robust canines designed to withstand large amounts of bite force? Did I also mention that on average a Leopard skull and Puma skull will be equal in skull zygomatic width (the only measurement that matters) with the Leopard's skull only being longer and therefore less effective in bite force? What if I also told you that Pumas are more intraspecifically combative seeing as they kill eachother more often in territorial fights and that Pumas hunt larger and more dangerous prey on average while also being in competition with wolves- which they kill by skull bite? And Puma's most certaintly do have stronger forelimbs lol. Look up pictures of big male leopards and pumas held up by hunters and look at their forelimbs, dude. It's night and day. It's understandable becuase Pumas are closer to Jaguar's forelimb robustity than is the Leopard... By not an insignificant amount... Neither are great fighters, but cougars are worse. Cougars are no more successful against street dogs. Cougars are not more interspecifically combative... not at all. Only in the everglades where 100 cougars are in a 100 square mile box or whatever. Leopards are more combative, they last longer against dogs and fight better. Male cougars ambush female wolves that are totally oblivious to their presence until it's too late. (waiting for the "but this cougar killed a male wolf!!!" cries, the last part is invariably true always) A small female Puma from Yellowstone killed a male wolf larger than herself... Lol. No ambush, the wolf ran because it knew it is stupid to challenge a puma... Smaller than itself or not, female or not... Pumas kill eachother more in fights, therefore they are more combative during intraspecific circumstances. Nothing you can say about that. I know, leopard's roar so they sound so heckin cool! But in reality Puma's are the ones slugging harder in those fights based off of mortality for both species and by observing male pumas who've had their skulls crushed by other males. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2023 23:28:31 GMT
I actually used to think that cougars were larger in Brazil. - by like, a large margin.
Ay.
guess everything's bigger in 'merica
Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk
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Post by Colein on Mar 3, 2023 23:31:02 GMT
Nope. Pumas in south america are much smaller than their north american cousins. Don't be a moron lol. 60kgs in Argentina is a BIG Puma. 70kgs is a trophy of a lifetime and anything beyond that is relatively unheard of outside of very, very rare individuals. Straight up, I did my homework. I've talked to people that are familiar with pumas in Argentina, 60kgs is indeed a big male... In north america we'd be inclined to assume that to be a sub adult male... It gets worse in brazil. 40kgs for a mature male, maybe 45kgs. 55kgs is a BIG male in brazil. Central america? Same deal. When you speak of "south america" you are thinking of the extremes in Patagonia. Chile. Where pumas are indeed very, very large. But that's it. Outside of that Argentinian pumas are much smaller than the average north american Puma, why? Because of prey biomass, duh. Pumas never ever prey on adults? What a know-it-all you are lol. How about you go bring the riveting revelations that you conjured up from the safety of your bedroom to the researchers that work alongside both animals in texas and florida, and go tell them just how right you are and how wrong they are. I'm sure you'll get through to them one day. Anyway, puma's kill adult boars, we have video and photographic evidence of them doing so and studies proving that they use boar as a primary food source as well as remarks of them hunting adults from researchers. That's all I need. Comfylounge, sorry for my childish and moronic insults to you on Carnivora. I'm not that person. What did you say? Lol. Did you insult this man/woman's dead mother? Or did you make a bad pun? Come-lounge on this dik LOL |
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Post by CoolJohnson on Mar 3, 2023 23:38:26 GMT
I am not disputing that a cougar might be able to kill a boar, but there is not really much evidence of them killing adults compared to leopards. Here are some of the confirmed cases of leopards managing to kill an adult wild boar. India: source: Majumder, Aniruddha, 2011, “Prey selection, food habits and population structure of sympatric cornivores: Tiger panthera tigris tigris (L.), Leopard Panthera pardus (L.) and Dhole Cuon alpinus (Pallas) in Pench Tiger Reserve, Madhya Pradesh (India)”, thesis PhD, Saurashtra University It states here that Male Wild Boars made up 2.8% of Leopard kills, and females made 1.8 % of Leopard kills. Iran: Persian Leopards killed Six Wild Boar. " Four of 6 wild pig remains were young adults (< 2 years)." Here is confirmation that two of the pigs killed were adults. Farhadinia, M. S., Johnson, P. J., Hunter, L. T., & Macdonald, D. W. (2018). Persian leopard predation patterns and kill rates in the Iran–Turkmenistan borderland. Journal of Mammalogy, 99(3), 713-723. Siberia: As can be seen, Brown Bears killed 31 adult male Boars, Tigers killed 9 adult male Boars and Leopards killed 1 adult male Ussuri(?) Boar. On the other hand Wolves and Lynx avoided adult male Boar. Not sure about the source since this was posted by brobear on a bear based forum. Sri Lanka: ^ There was only one adult wild boar killed by a Leopard compared to three Sambar stags. Source: Kittle, Andrew et. al. The ecology and behaviour of a protected area Sri Lankan leopard (Panthera pardus kotiya) population. Tropical Ecology 58(1):71-86 February 2017 Unline the leopard, there is not a proper confirmation of cougars killing adult boar. Chile: " The puma predominantly predated on juveniles and the percentages of consumption varied between 17-37% depending on the method used to analyze the content of prey present in their feces." "The largest native prey of the puma in the study area is the pudu, an animal that does not exceeds 10 kg of body mass (Muñoz & Yánez 2000), while the average of the body mass of prey (native and exotic) of pumas delivered for forests coastal and Andean regions of southern Chile is 7.7 kg (Rau & Jiménez 2002). For its part, juvenile European wild boars in the area of study present a body mass of 20-50 kg (Skewes 1990), which corresponds to what observed ford in the case of the animal carcass hunted by cougar found on the ground in August 1988. Maehr et al. (1990) report of a body mass of 23 kg for pig feral, eaten by puma in Florida, USA." " In a single opportunity they met remains of European wild boar hunted by cougars. On July 10, 1988 in the Valle sector Beautiful (40º02'17 ”S, 71º57'34” W, 513 masl) the fresh carcass of a juvenile was found (wild boar) of an estimated age between six and eight months old, which kept part of the mandible and the maxillary-nasal of the skull, along with almost complete skin, not existing major bones or pair muscle tees." Skewes, O., Moraga, C. A., Arriagada, P., & Rau, J. R. (2012). The European wild boar (Sus scrofa): a biological invader as a recent prey of the American puma (Puma concolor) in southern Chile. Revista Chilena de Historia Natural, 85(2), 227-232. Brazil: " During a study of the impacts of wild boars on vegetation, mammals and birds of the Atlantic Forest (Hegel & Marini, 2013; Hegel, 2017), we found three apparent predation events upon both juveniles and piglets by the puma (Puma concolor) in the northeast of State of Rio Grande do Sul, southern Brazil." Ara- curi-Esmeralda, Muitos Cap~oes municipality) (28°13040.7″S; 51°09049.1″W), and another in September 2015 on a post- harvest corn plantation also at Muitos Cap~oes (28°16021.0″S; 51°14048.4″W) (Fig. 1a). Both set of faeces had typical hair of wild boar piglets and small hoof fragments, and puma footprints were found nearby. The second set of evidence was a fresh, partially eaten carcass of a juvenile wild boar, found in March 2013 inside a forest fragment at the municipality of Dois Lajeados (29°00004.6″S; 51°46026.8″W) (Fig. 1b). The carcass was partially covered with leaves and twigs (typical caching behaviour of pumas), had an almost intact skull, small bite marks in the neck, wild boar hairs around the carcass, crushed and broken bones, and puma footprints near the carcass.Hegel, C. G. Z., & Marini, M. Â. (2018). Large felids as predators of wild boars in the Atlantic Forest: reconciling Verdade et al. and Rosa et al. Animal Conservation, 21(5), 363-364. Florida, USA: The best study of Panthers predating is from Maehr et. al. 1990. However, he does not specify the age/gender of the Pigs killed. Maehr does include the weights of two Wild Pigs killed in a slightly older study, which are both juveniles. " All scats collected on Fisheating Creek contained hog hair. On 20 April 1984 a freshly killed pig approximately 3.6 kg was found. The carcass was extensively utilized leaving only the snout forward of the eyes and a neat pile of intestines nearby. On 10 August 1984 an approximately 23 kg male hog was found with only the internal organs and ribs consumed. Neither hog was covered as is the typical fashion of the species (Shaw 1979)." source: SIGN SURVEYS FOR FLORIDA PANTHERS ON PERIPHERAL AREAS OF THEIR KNOWN RANGE JAYDEC. ROOF AND DAVIDS. MAEHR Florida Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission, 566 Commercial Blvd., Naples, Florida 33 Now I am not disputing a cougar can kill a boar, but a leopard does have more confirmed kills so the edge goes to the pantherine. Well, sure. Both Pumas and Leopards prefer sub-adult/piglet specimens as opposed to adults. The video I posted a few responses ago was indeed an adult boar, and I have a picture that was posted on wildfact of a female Cougar chasing a much larger adult boar, and another of a smaller boar being chased in Florida. Many institutions that study boar/Puma interactions also mention the Puma's ability to kill adults but never flat out give a discrept account. Someone would have to personally contact people in the know, such as Davis Mountains researchers in Texas, or Floridian Panther researchers to get a clear answer. I'm 100% there are a multitude of accounts 100%. & the places that say Puma's "avoid adults" (according to the researchers) are small south american Puma's, similar to Indian Leopard's (which is to be expected) Floridian and Texas populations however always specifiy the predation on younger individuals as "frequent" whereas adult predation is rare- which is to be expected and automatically assumes that it DID happen during the study but was simply never specifically addressed. I also have a picture of an adult female boar's skull belonging to an individual that was killed by a Puma in brazil, i know it was an ADULT female because the researcher elaborated that the Puma killed the female and than killed her 2 piglets right afterwards. The skull of the Boar showed skull fractures indicating that the adult female boar was killed via skull bite. I'll see if I can find it, it was posted on carnivora at some point. I know peccaries aren't boar, but they are similar. In certain areas Pumas actually prefer peccary over whitetail deer, even if there was an abundance of deer they strictly went after adult peccaries. Which even if they're smaller than boar shows an impressive feat pertaining to favoring suid-like prey items. And yes, a big male Cougar is absolutely capable of killing a male boar. Why wouldn't they? They got stronger forelimbs and comparable neck sizes and chest sizes to Leopard's, nothing other than a lack of gall would really stop them from winning that fight. (And I once again don't know how to post pictures on here otherwise I would've been doing that...) I am not disputing that there pumas are able to kill boar, but there is actual proper confirmation of leopards killing adult boar. As in, there is actual evidence of a Indian Leopards killing adult boars compared to Texas Cougars. I never found anything of a cougar killing an adult boar. The closest is a peccary.  "1a and 1b: highlighted structures of a collared peccary skull damaged by a puma bite, 1-Nuchal crest, 2-" www.researchgate.net/publication/288300716_Lethal_biting_behaviour_of_pumas_Carnivora_Felidae_interpreted_from_fractured_skull_of_preyThat is great and all but collared peccaries are 16-27 kg, so the size of a juvenile boar.   zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1111/acv.12402Here are Leopards with large boar kills.  "Persian leopard on a wild pig kill in Tandoureh National Park, Kopetdag mountains, Iran-Turkmenistan border" www.researchgate.net/publication/362889852_Status_of_Persian_leopards_in_northern_Iran_and_Central_Asia  Oh by the way, leopards have wider necks and comparable if not bigger chests than cougars. Not to mention that they can grapple better with lower pc2 value. |
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Post by Colein on Mar 3, 2023 23:55:47 GMT
Well, sure. Both Pumas and Leopards prefer sub-adult/piglet specimens as opposed to adults. The video I posted a few responses ago was indeed an adult boar, and I have a picture that was posted on wildfact of a female Cougar chasing a much larger adult boar, and another of a smaller boar being chased in Florida. Many institutions that study boar/Puma interactions also mention the Puma's ability to kill adults but never flat out give a discrept account. Someone would have to personally contact people in the know, such as Davis Mountains researchers in Texas, or Floridian Panther researchers to get a clear answer. I'm 100% there are a multitude of accounts 100%. & the places that say Puma's "avoid adults" (according to the researchers) are small south american Puma's, similar to Indian Leopard's (which is to be expected) Floridian and Texas populations however always specifiy the predation on younger individuals as "frequent" whereas adult predation is rare- which is to be expected and automatically assumes that it DID happen during the study but was simply never specifically addressed. I also have a picture of an adult female boar's skull belonging to an individual that was killed by a Puma in brazil, i know it was an ADULT female because the researcher elaborated that the Puma killed the female and than killed her 2 piglets right afterwards. The skull of the Boar showed skull fractures indicating that the adult female boar was killed via skull bite. I'll see if I can find it, it was posted on carnivora at some point. I know peccaries aren't boar, but they are similar. In certain areas Pumas actually prefer peccary over whitetail deer, even if there was an abundance of deer they strictly went after adult peccaries. Which even if they're smaller than boar shows an impressive feat pertaining to favoring suid-like prey items. And yes, a big male Cougar is absolutely capable of killing a male boar. Why wouldn't they? They got stronger forelimbs and comparable neck sizes and chest sizes to Leopard's, nothing other than a lack of gall would really stop them from winning that fight. (And I once again don't know how to post pictures on here otherwise I would've been doing that...) I am not disputing that there pumas are able to kill boar, but there is actual proper confirmation of leopards killing adult boar. As in, there is actual evidence of a Indian Leopards killing adult boars compared to Texas Cougars. I never found anything of a cougar killing an adult boar. The closest is a peccary. "1a and 1b: highlighted structures of a collared peccary skull damaged by a puma bite, 1-Nuchal crest, 2-" www.researchgate.net/publication/288300716_Lethal_biting_behaviour_of_pumas_Carnivora_Felidae_interpreted_from_fractured_skull_of_preyThat is great and all but collared peccaries are 16-27 kg, so the size of a juvenile boar. zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1111/acv.12402Here are Leopards with large boar kills. "Persian leopard on a wild pig kill in Tandoureh National Park, Kopetdag mountains, Iran-Turkmenistan border" www.researchgate.net/publication/362889852_Status_of_Persian_leopards_in_northern_Iran_and_Central_AsiaOh by the way, leopards have wider necks and comparable if not bigger chests than cougars. Not to mention that they can grapple better with lower pc2 value. Look, I don't know why researchers don't highlight the times in which Pumas killed adult boar, they should because thay would shut a lot of people up regarding their capability in controlling feral swine. Anyway I found it: http://instagram.com/p/CdL_YzVuw96 Translated: Wild boar skull (Sus scrofa) preyed on by puma (Puma concolor). Commentor: Did the Puma kill and adult wild boar!?! Response: Yes. That time I was working with puma monitoring and we recorded this ADULT and 2 cubs preyed upon by pumas. There you go. Look how hard I had to look for that when in reality it probably happened a multitude of times during the texas study and Florida study but they just don't mention it. Arguments from silence aren't good arguments and I've already stated a multitude of times that their terminology IMPLIES that adult feral hog predation happened, but I guess we have to be so incredibly rigid? If you want specifics please take the time to email the researchers first hand, I'd like to get confirmation of more adult hog mortality due to Pumas as well. That hog in the gif clip reminds me of the size disparity between that texas female and that large male hog, which the female puma likely killed. |
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Post by Colein on Mar 3, 2023 23:59:54 GMT
Well, sure. Both Pumas and Leopards prefer sub-adult/piglet specimens as opposed to adults. The video I posted a few responses ago was indeed an adult boar, and I have a picture that was posted on wildfact of a female Cougar chasing a much larger adult boar, and another of a smaller boar being chased in Florida. Many institutions that study boar/Puma interactions also mention the Puma's ability to kill adults but never flat out give a discrept account. Someone would have to personally contact people in the know, such as Davis Mountains researchers in Texas, or Floridian Panther researchers to get a clear answer. I'm 100% there are a multitude of accounts 100%. & the places that say Puma's "avoid adults" (according to the researchers) are small south american Puma's, similar to Indian Leopard's (which is to be expected) Floridian and Texas populations however always specifiy the predation on younger individuals as "frequent" whereas adult predation is rare- which is to be expected and automatically assumes that it DID happen during the study but was simply never specifically addressed. I also have a picture of an adult female boar's skull belonging to an individual that was killed by a Puma in brazil, i know it was an ADULT female because the researcher elaborated that the Puma killed the female and than killed her 2 piglets right afterwards. The skull of the Boar showed skull fractures indicating that the adult female boar was killed via skull bite. I'll see if I can find it, it was posted on carnivora at some point. I know peccaries aren't boar, but they are similar. In certain areas Pumas actually prefer peccary over whitetail deer, even if there was an abundance of deer they strictly went after adult peccaries. Which even if they're smaller than boar shows an impressive feat pertaining to favoring suid-like prey items. And yes, a big male Cougar is absolutely capable of killing a male boar. Why wouldn't they? They got stronger forelimbs and comparable neck sizes and chest sizes to Leopard's, nothing other than a lack of gall would really stop them from winning that fight. (And I once again don't know how to post pictures on here otherwise I would've been doing that...) I am not disputing that there pumas are able to kill boar, but there is actual proper confirmation of leopards killing adult boar. As in, there is actual evidence of a Indian Leopards killing adult boars compared to Texas Cougars. I never found anything of a cougar killing an adult boar. The closest is a peccary. "1a and 1b: highlighted structures of a collared peccary skull damaged by a puma bite, 1-Nuchal crest, 2-" www.researchgate.net/publication/288300716_Lethal_biting_behaviour_of_pumas_Carnivora_Felidae_interpreted_from_fractured_skull_of_preyThat is great and all but collared peccaries are 16-27 kg, so the size of a juvenile boar. zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1111/acv.12402Here are Leopards with large boar kills. "Persian leopard on a wild pig kill in Tandoureh National Park, Kopetdag mountains, Iran-Turkmenistan border" www.researchgate.net/publication/362889852_Status_of_Persian_leopards_in_northern_Iran_and_Central_AsiaOh by the way, leopards have wider necks and comparable if not bigger chests than cougars. Not to mention that they can grapple better with lower pc2 value. Also last I checked Leopard's and Puma's had similar neck sizes with the Puma being larger in chest girth. 64kg Puma: 54cm neck 66kg Leopard: 54cm neck I forgot the chest size but the puma was like 2cms more robust or something. Anyway, yeah. No reason to believe a leopard is stronger than a male puma at parity. |
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Post by CoolJohnson on Mar 4, 2023 0:14:15 GMT
Also last I checked Leopard's and Puma's had similar neck sizes with the Puma being larger in chest girth. 64kg Puma: 54cm neck 66kg Leopard: 54cm neck I forgot the chest size but the puma was like 2cms more robust or something. Anyway, yeah. No reason to believe a leopard is stronger than a male puma at parity. Wrong. Most pumas have neck girths at 41-49 cm. Leopards usuLly have neck girths at 51-60 cm around the 60-70 kg mark. Their chests may overlap, but there are more leopards with the 86-87 cm chest girths. Also, I am impressed that there is a first confirmed adult kill of a boar, though it is female. It is close, but the leopard has the slight edge for now since there is documentation of killing adult male boars. |
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Post by Bolushi on Mar 4, 2023 0:22:04 GMT
South American cougars are plenty big, no smaller than North American ones. Anyone who knows cougars well whatsoever knows this, anyone who has seen a cougar in North America in comparison knows this. I have. Peccaries are "similar" to boars the same way ocelots are "similar" to leopards. "I seen a red tailed hawk kill an ocelot once, no doubt it could definitely kill a leopard." See how stupid that sounds? Why wouldn't they? Who knows, they never ever prey on adults in Texas. The ones in South America outright avoid adult boars. Hardcastle has the study. Nope. Pumas in south america are much smaller than their north american cousins. Don't be a moron lol. 60kgs in Argentina is a BIG Puma. 70kgs is a trophy of a lifetime and anything beyond that is relatively unheard of outside of very, very rare individuals. Straight up, I did my homework. I've talked to people that are familiar with pumas in Argentina, 60kgs is indeed a big male... In north america we'd be inclined to assume that to be a sub adult male... It gets worse in brazil. 40kgs for a mature male, maybe 45kgs. 55kgs is a BIG male in brazil. Central america? Same deal. When you speak of "south america" you are thinking of the extremes in Patagonia. Chile. Where pumas are indeed very, very large. But that's it. Outside of that Argentinian pumas are much smaller than the average north american Puma, why? Because of prey biomass, duh. Pumas never ever prey on adults? What a know-it-all you are lol. How about you go bring the riveting revelations that you conjured up from the safety of your bedroom to the researchers that work alongside both animals in texas and florida, and go tell them just how right you are and how wrong they are. I'm sure you'll get through to them one day. Anyway, puma's kill adult boars, we have video and photographic evidence of them doing so and studies proving that they use boar as a primary food source as well as remarks of them hunting adults from researchers. That's all I need. Nope, those researchers show on paper that they do not. "On paper" not them running their mouth. |
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Post by Bolushi on Mar 4, 2023 0:24:15 GMT
I actually used to think that cougars were larger in Brazil. - by like, a large margin. Ay. guess everything's bigger in 'merica Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk Nope. "Colein" is under delusions. Some South American populations are actually bigger. In Brazil, indeed they are small. Not that much smaller though. |
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Post by Bolushi on Mar 4, 2023 0:26:33 GMT
Also last I checked Leopard's and Puma's had similar neck sizes with the Puma being larger in chest girth. 64kg Puma: 54cm neck 66kg Leopard: 54cm neck I forgot the chest size but the puma was like 2cms more robust or something. Anyway, yeah. No reason to believe a leopard is stronger than a male puma at parity. Wrong. Most pumas have neck girths at 41-49 cm. Leopards usuLly have neck girths at 51-60 cm around the 60-70 kg mark. Their chests may overlap, but there are more leopards with the 86-87 cm chest girths. Also, I am impressed that there is a first confirmed adult kill of a boar, though it is female. It is close, but the leopard has the slight edge for now since there is documentation of killing adult male boars. Mind you however, that this is only one account. There are many accounts for leopards. Cougars live with many wild boars, tons of wild boars, and they go for deer which can run and are much faster. Boars cannot do that. So what is the alternative? "sit on your ass and get eaten" ain't it. That is impressive, however the global trend is much different and studies point out cougars avoiding adult boars. Nobody has an agenda against cougars, the scientists aren't biased boar fans who not dare show an account to the public. They would gladly say "cougars are efficient at controlling boar populations" but they cannot. |
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