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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2023 15:47:57 GMT
It's just me ramping up leopards to subtly piss off Supercat. Lol. Cougars hunt cow moose, but fail against bull moose and never prey upon wild boar... leopards can do it, cougars should be able to, but they can't. The study evidently only included one leopard and one cougar. I disagree with their readings, I once entertained cougar superiority over leopards (in fact I have some Quora answers that support cougar) just because of that study but TBH I think the leopard just got screwed. Best vs best we're talking a large male Persian leopard and a large male cougar, cougar is getting ran over no question about it. Cougars don't coexist with wild boar like leopards do tho lol, Large Patagonian Tom vs large Persian Male, Imo is more closer than you may think. I may give the slight edge to the leopard but i wouldn't fully rule out the cougar. They do, in Texas boars are here there and everywhere... there is an apocalypse here basically. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2023 15:53:38 GMT
Poll is neck and neck, this really is a great matchup. I'm surprised there are NO cases whatsoever of like "circus spats" or something? Like lion vs tiger has a bunch of cases where they fought in captivity. This is a shit match-up. This debate has already been argued in literally every forum. It's just the same crap spewed all over the place again. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 27, 2023 15:55:03 GMT
Can I just say... and I'm probably wasting my time, you guys will likely remain enemies for eternity (and that's ok too) BUT... I do believe there should be a certain level of respect. Bolushi hating Wyatt and Hammerhead is actually funny and fair, like he SHOULD hate them, they kind of bring it on themselves as very silly guys. I like them, but they are silly. You two actually have a lot in common, with your elaborate verbose roasts which are sincerely amusing at times, and your genuine respective passions for animals. I think you two in the future could be worthy foes, potentially for decades, and having someone like that will push you both to great heights. Nah . I actually like him and want to be on the same page. But he's making me look like an imbecile that has no business being here. Everything I say, he'll either make fun of it or tell someone that I'm an idiot. At a point, it became unbearable and I had to give a "gentle rebuke" (tough love) as it were. I've already told him to send me a message. I agree with you, he needs to dial back his insults to you. Bordering on "harassment" when it's just everything you say. Don't do that bolushi. Attack the arguments, not the guy. I mean... I always attack the guy so I can't say that... BUT, attack the argument, and then embellish the argument-attack WITH an additional guy-attack. Don't JUST do the guy-attack every time he says anything. That's not cool. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2023 15:56:19 GMT
Poll is neck and neck, this really is a great matchup. I'm surprised there are NO cases whatsoever of like "circus spats" or something? Like lion vs tiger has a bunch of cases where they fought in captivity. This is a shit match-up. This debate has already been argued in literally every forum. It's just the same crap spewed all over the place again. 1 brick he think he richer than everybody 2 bricks he think he richer than everybody 4 bricks he think he richer than everybody |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2023 15:57:39 GMT
I disagree. This ''debate'' here is not even rooted in science. It is boring and this is why I do not make long responses. My ''elite'' debates were with people who are smart. Like a guy named Alex Sonnberg on dog vs wolf, which ended up as a draw. There is no entertainment value to very lengthy ''fuck you's'' I've hated people before, but at least they were somewhat scientific and their science was modern. I had a gif ready to post, ready for supercat's big roast or whatever to be scientific. I was going to post this:  But it is not to be. Supercat fails at science. Wyatt is doing a good job at making me hate him, and we all hate Hammerhead for obvious reasons. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 27, 2023 15:58:15 GMT
Poll is neck and neck, this really is a great matchup. I'm surprised there are NO cases whatsoever of like "circus spats" or something? Like lion vs tiger has a bunch of cases where they fought in captivity. This is a shit match-up. This debate has already been argued in literally every forum. It's just the same crap spewed all over the place again. I think that's a mistaken mentality. The best matchups are classics for a reason. Western Barred Trilobyte vs 4 pronged arizonian desert scorpion is a bullshit matchup. Some matches have substance. A greater literary significance with meat on the bones to dig into. Most don't. Most matches are total shit. The list of good matchups is actually a fairly short one. These good matchups can sustain pages and pages and pages of posts, each containing thousands of words, with a running debate that carries on over decades. That's the good stuff. You're never gonna get that out of randomly matching specific obscure uncharismatic species. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2023 16:02:12 GMT
This is a shit match-up. This debate has already been argued in literally every forum. It's just the same crap spewed all over the place again. I think that's a mistaken mentality. The best matchups are classics for a reason. Western Barred Trilobyte vs 4 pronged arizonian desert scorpion is a bullshit matchup. Some matches have substance. A greater literary significance with meat on the bones to dig into. Most don't. Most matches are total shit. The list of good matchups is actually a fairly short one. These good matchups can sustain pages and pages and pages of posts, each containing thousands of words, with a running debate that carries on over decades. That's the good stuff. You're never gonna get that out of randomly matching specific obscure uncharismatic species. They're so similar though. If one person says something badass about the cougar, it can essentially also be said for the leopard. This debate will never be settled because it's a toss-up. There should be a 50/50 option. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2023 16:03:13 GMT
I disagree. This ''debate'' here is not even rooted in science. It is boring and this is why I do not make long responses. My ''elite'' debates were with people who are smart. Like a guy named Alex Sonnberg on dog vs wolf, which ended up as a draw. There is no entertainment value to very lengthy ''fuck you's'' I've hated people before, but at least they were somewhat scientific and their science was modern. I had a gif ready to post, ready for supercat's big roast or whatever to be scientific. I was going to post this: But it is not to be. Supercat fails at science. Wyatt is doing a good job at making me hate him, and we all hate Hammerhead for obvious reasons. Why do we hate @hammerhead? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2023 16:03:41 GMT
I disagree. This ''debate'' here is not even rooted in science. It is boring and this is why I do not make long responses. My ''elite'' debates were with people who are smart. Like a guy named Alex Sonnberg on dog vs wolf, which ended up as a draw. There is no entertainment value to very lengthy ''fuck you's'' I've hated people before, but at least they were somewhat scientific and their science was modern. I had a gif ready to post, ready for supercat's big roast or whatever to be scientific. I was going to post this: But it is not to be. Supercat fails at science. Wyatt is doing a good job at making me hate him, and we all hate Hammerhead for obvious reasons. Why do we hate @hammerhead ? Because he left us (I was joking) |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 27, 2023 16:07:09 GMT
It's just me ramping up leopards to subtly piss off Supercat. Lol. Cougars hunt cow moose, but fail against bull moose and never prey upon wild boar... leopards can do it, cougars should be able to, but they can't. The study evidently only included one leopard and one cougar. I disagree with their readings, I once entertained cougar superiority over leopards (in fact I have some Quora answers that support cougar) just because of that study but TBH I think the leopard just got screwed. Best vs best we're talking a large male Persian leopard and a large male cougar, cougar is getting ran over no question about it. Cougars don't coexist with wild boar like leopards do tho lol, Large Patagonian Tom vs large Persian Male, Imo is more closer than you may think. I may give the slight edge to the leopard but i wouldn't fully rule out the cougar. Very incorrect. In fact there are studies from texas that make a special point of noting that by far and away the most available and abundant species to cougars are hogs, and they go out of their way to avoid them. Studies that have an emphasis on prey availability vs number of specimens preyed upon and amount of total food consumed coming from which species. They make it very clear which prey pumas prefer and which they have an aversion towards targeting. In that study feral hogs and semi-wild cattle were easily by far the most available and abundant prey for the cougar. Literally like 200 hogs and 50 cattle for every deer in the study area, and they still massively preferred deer and basically never ate hogs or cattle. I remember peccary predations matched their relative abundance/availability, deer preference was far greater than their availability and hog and cattle preference was dramatically low relative to their availability, in fact they basically weren't taken at all, despite pumas basically tripping over them in the study area. Maybe they don't like the taste? I dunno, but they have ample access to them and don't target them. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 27, 2023 16:09:26 GMT
I think that's a mistaken mentality. The best matchups are classics for a reason. Western Barred Trilobyte vs 4 pronged arizonian desert scorpion is a bullshit matchup. Some matches have substance. A greater literary significance with meat on the bones to dig into. Most don't. Most matches are total shit. The list of good matchups is actually a fairly short one. These good matchups can sustain pages and pages and pages of posts, each containing thousands of words, with a running debate that carries on over decades. That's the good stuff. You're never gonna get that out of randomly matching specific obscure uncharismatic species. They're so similar though. If one person says something badass about the cougar, it can essentially also be said for the leopard. This debate will never be settled because it's a toss-up. There should be a 50/50 option. That's the interesting narrative intrinsic in this specific matchup. I wouldn't say it's the MOST compelling matchup, but I would probably put it in a top 20. That need to find a difference between the two similar cats is the interesting part about it. It drives a deeper dive into these two animals than anyone in the mainstream really does. You can come out of it knowing leopards and pumas better than anyone else in the world. IF the debate gets going. |
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Post by CoolJohnson on Jan 27, 2023 19:38:10 GMT
Oh dear... shit's about to pop-off in here...  Are they related to Bolushi? |
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Post by lincoln on Jan 27, 2023 19:57:35 GMT
Oh dear... shit's about to pop-off in here... Are they related to Bolushi? Bruh |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2023 23:23:39 GMT
Oh dear... shit's about to pop-off in here... Are they related to Bolushi? How did you guys track down my cousins?! |
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Post by CoolJohnson on Jan 28, 2023 0:26:18 GMT
How significant is the difference of jumping ability? From what I have seen, both can barely jump over a fence in a single bound. Leopard jumps fence.  ![]() Cougar jumps fence.  Leopard jumps fence while carrying a small dog.  Cougar jumps fence with a lamb  Leopard managing to clear a 6 foot gate with a run and jump.  Another Leopard managing to clear a tall gate with a running start.  Cougar does a brief run and jumps over fence while lady chases it.  ^ Though in defense for the last part, the Cougar did not have as much momentum for the jump as the Leopard. That being said, both seem to not bee dramatically different in vertical jumps. Since you talked about agility, then I could point out that there are more videos of Leopards chasing and even catching Monkeys on tree tops. This guy pointed out that Cougars were never recorded to predate on Bison. Not even a single juvenile. I know you will spam me about that old and exaggerated anecdote about a Cougar chewing on a Bison's back, but can you provide any current evidence of Cougars even predating on young Bison? At least I can point out that Leopards have killed or predated on juvenile Gaur, Cape Buffalo and Banteng. That being said, their predation feats are equal. There are some recent cases of Leopards predating on Wolves. Here is a case of a sub-adult female Leopard killing an adult Eurasian Wolf. Both have a comparable range of 30-40 kg. "During the year of their stay in the reserve, the leopards caught 15 deer, six rounds and a chamois, two roe deer, four wild boars, and Victoria managed to get even an adult wolf!" Оригинал статьи: www.kp.ru/guide/peredneaziatskii-leopard.htm  sources: www.researchgate.net/profile/Anna-Yachmennikova/publication/334591736_Study_and_Monitoring_of_Big_Cats_in_Russia_2019/links/5d332ce74585153e59110209/Study-and-Monitoring-of-Big-Cats-in-Russia-2019.pdfLeopard fends off Sloth Bear. Leopard takes back kill from Hyena. So more like a tie Also, Black Bears get scared by any animal that shows slight aggression. Sandhill Crane scares away Bear. Cat scares away Bear Ok. There are some cases of Leopards predating on sub-adult or young Nile and Mugger Crocodiles. Also, Jaguars and Cougars are similar sized in some areas like Mexico. In other parts of Latin America, Cougars are subordinate to Jaguars. To be fair, any female animal can be defensive about her offspring, and may be able to fend off a bigger predator on a few occasions. However, there is also a possibility that the video is staged. If we simply go by that video, then I could post a video a Black Bear Cub beating up and scaring away a Mountain Lion. Yes. In another study, a Leopard is possibly a better grappler than a Cougar due to lower pc2 value (Andersson 2004). Also, can bones of a dead animal really determine much? Wouldn't live measurements be better for judgement? For example, a Leopard would have bigger heads and necks and chests with greater girths in comparison to a similar sized Cougar. Anyway, I think an Indian and African Savannah Leopard could match a Cougar at a 51-49, while a Congo, Persian and Sri Lankan Leopard may win even more often against a Cougar. Of course, I could be wrong and this could actually be a tie. As regarding jumping, Cougars are the better jumpers by quite a long shot. I didn't want to post values cuz I didn't think they were necessary, but apparently now I have to. Jump height: Cougar (5.5 m), Leopard (more than 3 m). That's about half the cougar’s height Jump length: Cougar (12 m+), Leopard (6 m+). Again, roughly half. So yes, the cougar is the better jumper by quite a decent amount. Using a fence jump is not the most appropriate method; for example we know nothing about the heights of each of the fences. Both could jump over a fence comfortably, but that doesn’t tell us their exact capacities. I've seen scenes of leopards hunting monkeys and even squirrels in trees, but cougars also give their own jumping displays that are arguably even better. For instance, I'm yet to see a leopard jumping across canyons like the cougar in this documentary (17:06 and 18:15 and again 31:04 and 34:56) : Between watching a cougar maneuvering in a canyon with so much flexibility and watching a leopard hunting in the treetops, uhhhh, I think I'll prefer watching the cougar. Regarding predation feats, they're both equal. Regarding that "old and exaggerated" anecdote, I'm not even worried about it anymore. I might as well pretend it doesn't exist. I already have an entire answer dedicated to cougar and bison on Quora: www.quora.com/Can-an-adult-Cougar-kill-a-full-grown-American-Bison/answer/The-SuperCat?ch=10&oid=408389857&share=6d456863&srid=hJo9JQ&target_type=answerI suggest you check it out. You're on Quora too I presume, so feel free to comment. I'm actually planning a second post on Cougar vs Bison (Predation) based on the comment I received. Right now, my stand on Cougar and Bison is not even based on those accounts anymore. I don't give a care in the world that that page where I saw the accounts, exists. Let's pretend they don't exist. In the answer I made, I gave other reasons besides those accounts for why I believe a cougar can kill an adult American Bison, so it's wrong to say that I "claim that cougars can kill an adult bison based on 2 historical accounts of "fails"". I posted seven links including the old account one in that post and also anticipated other arguments that people might want to bring up like "even bears hardly kill bison" and debunked them. So no, my stance that a cougar CAN (not "HAS" or "REGULARLY") kill an adult bison is not solely based on those old accounts. I have other reasons to believe so. I have also never claimed that a cougar has ever killed an adult bison, all I've said is that it remains a possibility. The cougar still has it as a potential buried within itself. One study? You can't use just one study as all the proof. It was simply in that study, that region (Yellowstone) that cougars never killed any bison. It doesn’t mean they haven't in other parts of their range. Cougar are definitely predators of bison (I'm not saying adults, I mean that they can and do kill individuals of the species) otherwise they wouldn't be recorded as predators: www.jjbison.com/post/what-predators-kill-adult-bison#:~:text=Much%20like%20your%20cat%20at,that%20can%20fend%20for%20themselves. Just because a cougar never once killed a juvenile in that particular study means nothing. Does that mean a cougar cannot even kill a juvenile bison for God's sake? Do you intend to tell me that a 100 kg cougar cannot kill a bison calf? Surely you do not. Just because it didn't happen doesn’t mean it can’t happen. Hell, even coyote packs can bring down juvenile bison, and you know that a cougar > coyote pack (generally speaking). Long and short, they are equal in predation feats. Leopard kills wolf? Excellent (even a sub-adult female against an adult). Just goes to show that Cougar $ Leopard >>>>> Grey Wolf. A female cougar could have done the same. "To be fair, any female animal can be defensive about her offspring, and may be able to fend off a bigger predator on a few occasions. However, there is also a possibility that the video is staged. If we simply go by that video, then I could post a video a Black Bear Cub beating up and scaring away a Mountain Lion". Not necessarily, a cheetah mother would almost always run away from a lion. She might stand her ground and show aggressive displays like in this video, but will never come into close quarters like the cougar and the grizzly: Also, there were like 2 other scenes in that compilation where the cougar repelled the grizzly that didn't look staged (that is if you believe the first one was staged). a) I'll give credit that they can navigate the canyons. I could potentially see the Himalayan and Persian Leopards potentially pulling that off, but there is not much footage on those guys. However, there is some evidence that they predate on slope dwellers like Blue Sheep and Himalayan Tahr.    I still have not found any footage of a Cougar making a high vertical jump. Here is a Cougar scaling an ok sized fence. Here is a Leopard scaling some good sized buildings in a moderate sized Indian city.      Either way, the agility and jumps do not seem to be that far apart, and I am not sure they will help in a common ground battle. 2. The problem is that we will never know is whether Cougars are actually even bold enough to make any predation attempts on Bison let alone their calves. If a Cougar CAN kill an adult Bison, then a Leopard should too. At least Leopards are bold enough to prey on the young of Banteng, Water Buffalo, Gaur and Cape Buffalo, and there is documentation of them at least killing adult free-ranging cattle on several occasions. Simply provide some proof that they at least made an attempt on predating on young Bison, then I will somewhat agree that they are bold in their attacks. The more bold an animal is in predation attempts, the more likely they are willing to try an attack on an adult Ungulate. 3. I posted that as an addition on carnivores that Leopards have taken on. 4. Here is a Honey Badger intimidating a pride of Lions from her offspring, and they can get into close quarters. Most old documentaries with animals fighting are staged to some extent. |
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