Leopard vs Puma - definitive thread.

[CoolJohnson]

▪︎ Jumping Ability: Cougar, both horizontally and vertically (undisputed best jumper in Felidae ✌). No need to post figures.

How significant is the difference of jumping ability?

From what I have seen, both can barely jump over a fence in a single bound.


Leopard jumps fence.




Cougar jumps fence.





Leopard jumps fence while carrying a small dog.




Cougar jumps fence with a lamb






Leopard managing to clear a 6 foot gate with a run and jump.




Another Leopard managing to clear a tall gate with a running start.




Cougar does a brief run and jumps over fence while lady chases it.





^ Though in defense for the last part, the Cougar did not have as much momentum for the jump as the Leopard.



That being said, both seem to not bee dramatically different in vertical jumps.

Since you talked about agility, then I could point out that there are more videos of Leopards chasing and even catching Monkeys on tree tops.

▪︎ Predation feats: Cougar again. Items that are potentially on the menu: bull moose and bull bison (not ones with stage 5 bone cancer, AIDS, a fractured leg, broken rib cage and most certainly not a testicular torsion). Remember, they have killed some of these animals and potentially (can be argued in their favour) can kill some, but they still cannot kill a 4 day old wild boar. Leopards have killed bull elands, wild boars and cattle. They're basically equal (like exact same level) in predation feats, there's absolutely nothing one can kill that the other can't.

This guy pointed out that Cougars were never recorded to predate on Bison. Not even a single juvenile.  

I know you will spam me about that old and exaggerated anecdote about a Cougar chewing on a Bison's back, but can you provide any current evidence of Cougars even predating on young Bison? At least I can point out that Leopards have killed or predated on juvenile Gaur, Cape Buffalo and Banteng.

That being said, their predation feats are equal.

Top Canid in respective habitats (1 v 1 combat)



Leopard: Kills African Wild Dogs

Cougar: Kills Grey Wolves



- Win goes to cougar as wolves are stronger than African wild dogs even though both cats kill the dogs easily.

There are some recent cases of Leopards predating on Wolves.


Here is a case of a sub-adult female Leopard killing an adult Eurasian Wolf.  Both have a comparable range of 30-40 kg.

"During the year of their stay in the reserve, the leopards caught 15 deer, six rounds and a chamois, two roe deer, four wild boars, and Victoria managed to get even an adult wolf!"



Оригинал статьи: www.kp.ru/guide/peredneaziatskii-leopard.htm





sources: www.researchgate.net/profile/Anna-Yachmennikova/publication/334591736_Study_and_Monitoring_of_Big_Cats_in_Russia_2019/links/5d332ce74585153e59110209/Study-and-Monitoring-of-Big-Cats-in-Russia-2019.pdf

▪︎ Second strongest predator in respective Habitats (1 v 1)



Leopard: Fights against Spotted hyenas and almost always yield prey





Cougar: Fights against Black bears and same story with Leopard, but will sometimes stand its ground and chase away the bear.



- Win for Cougar again. It’s self explanatory that American black bear > Spotted hyena

Leopard fends off Sloth Bear.




Leopard takes back kill from Hyena.





So more like a tie


Also, Black Bears get scared by any animal that shows slight aggression.


Sandhill Crane scares away Bear.





Cat scares away Bear

▪︎ Top Crocodilian in respective habitats



Leopard: Can be killed by Nile crocodiles



Cougar: Can be killed by American crocodile, but can predate on sub-adult American alligators



- Win goes to Leopard as Nile Crocodile < only Salty and superior to all other crocodilians. Not really a win as it's not like any of the cats kills the crocodilians, but the leopard’s crocodilian foe is stronger which is why it takes a win.







▪︎ Top Big Cat (1 v 1)



Leopard: Loses to Lion (Food or ultimate death battle)





Cougar: On par with jaguar in the places they coexist in within North America. Can't talk about Pantanal jaguars and the cougars that coexist with them cuz that would be unfair. But in places like Mexico and the Central American countries, Cougar ~ Jaguar.





- Win goes to Leopard as Lions are stronger than jaguars even as a single unit (even without a pride). But cougars put up a better fight against their top big cat foe, but only because they're close in size to said foe.

Ok. There are some cases of Leopards predating on sub-adult or young Nile and Mugger Crocodiles.

Also, Jaguars and Cougars  are similar sized in some areas like Mexico. In other parts of Latin America, Cougars are subordinate to Jaguars.

Take for example the cougar-grizzly video, it could be asked whether a leopard would have done the same. How would a female leopard with cubs have done in that mother cougar’s position? That's a big question. The cougar wasn't intimidated by a grizzly, a leopard would have to show me the same or something higher for me to say it can defeat the cougar in a mental battle.



I believe that the fact that a cougar could stand up to a grizzly is enough proof that it shouldn't feel too nervous against a similar sized cat and that it might even have the edge in mental warfare.

To be fair, any female animal can be defensive about her offspring, and may be able to fend off a bigger predator on a few occasions.

However, there is also a possibility that the video is staged.

If we simply go by that video, then I could post a video a Black Bear Cub beating up and scaring away a Mountain Lion.

It is implied that they only used 1 individual for each animal in the robust test, so take it with a grain of salt

Yes. In another study, a Leopard is possibly a better grappler than a Cougar due to lower pc2 value (Andersson 2004).


Also, can bones of a dead animal really determine much?


Wouldn't live measurements be better for judgement?


For example, a Leopard would have bigger heads and necks and chests with greater girths in comparison to a similar sized Cougar.


Anyway, I think an Indian and African Savannah Leopard could match a Cougar at a 51-49, while a Congo, Persian and Sri Lankan Leopard may win even more often against a Cougar.

Of course, I could be wrong and this could actually be a tie.

[Deleted]

CoolJohnson Cougars are more agile than leopards, but not much. They get absolutely smoked in predation feats by leopards. They do well against cervids such as elk (they usually avoid bull elk) and cow moose, but suck at wild boar which are on a higher tier than a elk or cow moose.
Cougars do not predate upon adult boar, instead they select piglets.
''however, we have found that they do not regularly kill large boars with dangerous tusks or very large females, again suggesting that mountain lions select against those animals that pose the largest risk.''
bri.sulross.edu/pubs/borderlandsnews/BN_2014_3.pdf

''Puma that presented peaks in activity in the first hours of night and day in samples with no records of wild boar change to peaks of activity close to midnight (Fig 5). This is interesting as the wild boar exhibits two peaks of activity: near sunset and near sunrise (Fig 3). These changes in the activity of grey brocket deer and puma could reflect some avoidance of wild boar. These findings are counter-intuitive because pumas could potentially predate on wild boars. However, previous studies on the food habits of puma in South America indicate that the consumption of wild boars is usually marginal, occurring in sites associated with reduction of natural prey [44–55]. Moreover, the latency observed between records of puma after wild boar records was more than a week and was longer when assessed vice-versa. So, it is possible to suggest that pumas are not actively foraging for wild boars. Pumas probably prey on young wild boars opportunistically, but there are no published data of this behaviour in tropical environments of South America, except by anecdotical information cited by Hegel & Marini (2018) [56].''
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7360034/

Leopards however, can prey on adult wild boar. Though usually taking compromised specimens.


And also occasionally cattle, though only softer cattle are taken:

You will never find an account of cougars killing cattle. Supercat's only evidence is a cougar scavenging a bull in the snow.

[PumAcinonyx SuperCat]

Jan 27, 2023 6:52:29 GMT CoolJohnson said:

▪︎ Jumping Ability: Cougar, both horizontally and vertically (undisputed best jumper in Felidae ✌). No need to post figures.

How significant is the difference of jumping ability?

From what I have seen, both can barely jump over a fence in a single bound.


Leopard jumps fence.




Cougar jumps fence.





Leopard jumps fence while carrying a small dog.




Cougar jumps fence with a lamb






Leopard managing to clear a 6 foot gate with a run and jump.




Another Leopard managing to clear a tall gate with a running start.




Cougar does a brief run and jumps over fence while lady chases it.





^ Though in defense for the last part, the Cougar did not have as much momentum for the jump as the Leopard.



That being said, both seem to not bee dramatically different in vertical jumps.

Since you talked about agility, then I could point out that there are more videos of Leopards chasing and even catching Monkeys on tree tops.

▪︎ Predation feats: Cougar again. Items that are potentially on the menu: bull moose and bull bison (not ones with stage 5 bone cancer, AIDS, a fractured leg, broken rib cage and most certainly not a testicular torsion). Remember, they have killed some of these animals and potentially (can be argued in their favour) can kill some, but they still cannot kill a 4 day old wild boar. Leopards have killed bull elands, wild boars and cattle. They're basically equal (like exact same level) in predation feats, there's absolutely nothing one can kill that the other can't.

This guy pointed out that Cougars were never recorded to predate on Bison. Not even a single juvenile.  

I know you will spam me about that old and exaggerated anecdote about a Cougar chewing on a Bison's back, but can you provide any current evidence of Cougars even predating on young Bison? At least I can point out that Leopards have killed or predated on juvenile Gaur, Cape Buffalo and Banteng.

That being said, their predation feats are equal.

Top Canid in respective habitats (1 v 1 combat)



Leopard: Kills African Wild Dogs

Cougar: Kills Grey Wolves



- Win goes to cougar as wolves are stronger than African wild dogs even though both cats kill the dogs easily.

There are some recent cases of Leopards predating on Wolves.


Here is a case of a sub-adult female Leopard killing an adult Eurasian Wolf.  Both have a comparable range of 30-40 kg.

"During the year of their stay in the reserve, the leopards caught 15 deer, six rounds and a chamois, two roe deer, four wild boars, and Victoria managed to get even an adult wolf!"



Оригинал статьи: www.kp.ru/guide/peredneaziatskii-leopard.htm





sources: www.researchgate.net/profile/Anna-Yachmennikova/publication/334591736_Study_and_Monitoring_of_Big_Cats_in_Russia_2019/links/5d332ce74585153e59110209/Study-and-Monitoring-of-Big-Cats-in-Russia-2019.pdf

▪︎ Second strongest predator in respective Habitats (1 v 1)



Leopard: Fights against Spotted hyenas and almost always yield prey





Cougar: Fights against Black bears and same story with Leopard, but will sometimes stand its ground and chase away the bear.



- Win for Cougar again. It’s self explanatory that American black bear > Spotted hyena

Leopard fends off Sloth Bear.




Leopard takes back kill from Hyena.





So more like a tie


Also, Black Bears get scared by any animal that shows slight aggression.


Sandhill Crane scares away Bear.





Cat scares away Bear

▪︎ Top Crocodilian in respective habitats



Leopard: Can be killed by Nile crocodiles



Cougar: Can be killed by American crocodile, but can predate on sub-adult American alligators



- Win goes to Leopard as Nile Crocodile < only Salty and superior to all other crocodilians. Not really a win as it's not like any of the cats kills the crocodilians, but the leopard’s crocodilian foe is stronger which is why it takes a win.







▪︎ Top Big Cat (1 v 1)



Leopard: Loses to Lion (Food or ultimate death battle)





Cougar: On par with jaguar in the places they coexist in within North America. Can't talk about Pantanal jaguars and the cougars that coexist with them cuz that would be unfair. But in places like Mexico and the Central American countries, Cougar ~ Jaguar.





- Win goes to Leopard as Lions are stronger than jaguars even as a single unit (even without a pride). But cougars put up a better fight against their top big cat foe, but only because they're close in size to said foe.

Ok. There are some cases of Leopards predating on sub-adult or young Nile and Mugger Crocodiles.

Also, Jaguars and Cougars  are similar sized in some areas like Mexico. In other parts of Latin America, Cougars are subordinate to Jaguars.

Take for example the cougar-grizzly video, it could be asked whether a leopard would have done the same. How would a female leopard with cubs have done in that mother cougar’s position? That's a big question. The cougar wasn't intimidated by a grizzly, a leopard would have to show me the same or something higher for me to say it can defeat the cougar in a mental battle.



I believe that the fact that a cougar could stand up to a grizzly is enough proof that it shouldn't feel too nervous against a similar sized cat and that it might even have the edge in mental warfare.

To be fair, any female animal can be defensive about her offspring, and may be able to fend off a bigger predator on a few occasions.

However, there is also a possibility that the video is staged.

If we simply go by that video, then I could post a video a Black Bear Cub beating up and scaring away a Mountain Lion.

It is implied that they only used 1 individual for each animal in the robust test, so take it with a grain of salt

Yes. In another study, a Leopard is possibly a better grappler than a Cougar due to lower pc2 value (Andersson 2004).


Also, can bones of a dead animal really determine much?


Wouldn't live measurements be better for judgement?


For example, a Leopard would have bigger heads and necks and chests with greater girths in comparison to a similar sized Cougar.


Anyway, I think an Indian and African Savannah Leopard could match a Cougar at a 51-49, while a Congo, Persian and Sri Lankan Leopard may win even more often against a Cougar.

Of course, I could be wrong and this could actually be a tie.

As regarding jumping, Cougars are the better jumpers by quite a long shot. I didn't want to post values cuz I didn't think they were necessary, but apparently now I have to.

Jump height: Cougar (5.5 m), Leopard (more than 3 m). That's about half the cougar’s height

Jump length: Cougar (12 m+), Leopard (6 m+). Again, roughly half.

So yes, the cougar is the better jumper by quite a decent amount. Using a fence jump is not the most appropriate method; for example we know nothing about the heights of each of the fences. Both could jump over a fence comfortably, but that doesn’t tell us their exact capacities.

I've seen scenes of leopards hunting monkeys and even squirrels in trees, but cougars also give their own jumping displays that are arguably even better. For instance, I'm yet to see a leopard jumping across canyons like the cougar in this documentary (17:06 and 18:15 and again 31:04 and 34:56) :



Between watching a cougar maneuvering in a canyon with so much flexibility and watching a leopard hunting in the treetops, uhhhh, I think I'll prefer watching the cougar.

Regarding predation feats, they're both equal. Regarding that "old and exaggerated" anecdote, I'm not even worried about it anymore. I might as well pretend it doesn't exist. I already have an entire answer dedicated to cougar and bison on Quora: www.quora.com/Can-an-adult-Cougar-kill-a-full-grown-American-Bison/answer/The-SuperCat?ch=10&oid=408389857&share=6d456863&srid=hJo9JQ&target_type=answer


I suggest you check it out. You're on Quora too I presume, so feel free to comment. I'm actually planning a second post on Cougar vs Bison (Predation) based on the comment I received. Right now, my stand on Cougar and Bison is not even based on those accounts anymore. I don't give a care in the world that that page where I saw the accounts, exists. Let's pretend they don't exist. In the answer I made, I gave other reasons besides those accounts for why I believe a cougar can kill an adult American Bison, so it's wrong to say that I "claim that cougars can kill an adult bison based on 2 historical accounts of "fails"". I posted seven links including the old account one in that post and also anticipated other arguments that people might want to bring up like "even bears hardly kill bison" and debunked them.


So no, my stance that a cougar CAN (not "HAS" or "REGULARLY") kill an adult bison is not solely based on those old accounts. I have other reasons to believe so. I have also never claimed that a cougar has ever killed an adult bison, all I've said is that it remains a possibility. The cougar still has it as a potential buried within itself.

One study? You can't use just one study as all the proof. It was simply in that study, that region (Yellowstone) that cougars never killed any bison. It doesn’t mean they haven't in other parts of their range. Cougar are definitely predators of bison (I'm not saying adults, I mean that they can and do kill individuals of the species) otherwise they wouldn't be recorded as predators: www.jjbison.com/post/what-predators-kill-adult-bison#:~:text=Much%20like%20your%20cat%20at,that%20can%20fend%20for%20themselves.


Just because a cougar never once killed a juvenile in that particular study means nothing. Does that mean a cougar cannot even kill a juvenile bison for God's sake? Do you intend to tell me that a 100 kg cougar cannot kill a bison calf? Surely you do not. Just because it didn't happen doesn’t mean it can’t happen. Hell, even coyote packs can bring down juvenile bison, and you know that a cougar > coyote pack (generally speaking). Long and short, they are equal in predation feats.


Leopard kills wolf? Excellent (even a sub-adult female against an adult). Just goes to show that Cougar $ Leopard >>>>> Grey Wolf. A female cougar could have done the same.


"To be fair, any female animal can be defensive about her offspring, and may be able to fend off a bigger predator on a few occasions.

However, there is also a possibility that the video is staged.

If we simply go by that video, then I could post a video a Black Bear Cub beating up and scaring away a Mountain Lion".



Not necessarily, a cheetah mother would almost always run away from a lion. She might stand her ground and show aggressive displays like in this video, but will never come into close quarters like the cougar and the grizzly:



Also, there were like 2 other scenes in that compilation where the cougar repelled the grizzly that didn't look staged (that is if you believe the first one was staged).

[Deleted]

Warning: If you read that Quora answer it's just Supercat saying because leopards can kill a huge defenseless antelope and a tiger can kill a gaur 6x its size a cougar can kill a bison with many pointless paragraphs.

[PumAcinonyx SuperCat]

CoolJohnson . Regarding that cougar and bear video scene that MAY have been staged, that would just be an exception. The other scenes belong to actual documentaries and do not appear staged. Nah, why would cougars participate in staged videos?

The only staged fights that cougars ever participate in is with dogo argentinos. The dogs are unleashed on cougars with third degree burns, Pneumonia, Lung Cancer, a fractured femur, 4 broken ribs, 2 broken legs and a blemished eye for the fight to even be close to being fair. That is the state a cougar MUST be in for the toughest dogs on the planet to even have a chance.

The cougar still puts up a good fight, but obviously it eventually loses. All this takes place in the wild and those accursed cages. That’s the only time a cougar (wild or captive) takes part in a staged fight.

[Deleted]

Imagine losing to a 1 year old subadult dogo and you're a 130lb prime male cougar... god damn
Dogos are not close to the toughest dogs on the planet, it is not required. If 3 cougars engaged an adult Tosa Inu they would all lose, no joke.

[PumAcinonyx SuperCat]

CoolJohnson

Well, I might be wrong. Dogo argentinos do beat cougars, legit, legit. What would you expect? I mean, all them bulldogs subdue bulls. I mean, they're literally called "BULLdogs".

There's this small one, the EBT that regularly subdues SFBs (Spanish Fighting Bulls). Bulls 55 times its body size!!!

Those same Bulls have murdered lions and tigers simultaneously in fights. There was an answer on Quora (account is now deleted) where a Spanish Bull defeated a tiger, and then went on to kill both a lion and a second tiger (simultaneously) in that same fight, soon afterwards. Jeeez! And this is what a 50 pound dog is subduing!

Shouldn't it stand to reason then that EBT >>>>>>>> Lion $ Tiger combined? I mean what do you think? In my opinion, an EBT would mop the floor with a lion and a tiger at the same time.

I'm not even sure a pride of lions would dare approach a Spanish Bull. I mean, buffaloes have sometimes repelled lion prides, and the Spanish Bull is more aggressive and exists only to fight. Only someone that is extremely dumb will fail to comprehend that EBT >>>>>>>>>>> Lion Pride.

Pitbull, Alano espanol, EBT, Dogo argentino, these guys extinguish prime, fully fit and 150% healthy lions and tigers in fights, even when the lions and tigers outnumber them.

What do you think about one Pitbull vs 17 African Lions? I actually voted the Pitbull:

foodchaingang.proboards.com/thread/649/american-pitbull-terrier-african-lion

[Deleted]

It's not even the dogs being good it's the cats being bad.
Stamina? Gone.
Technique? Gone.
Footwork? They have limited use of their little hands they try to grapple with.
Willingness to take injury and keep going? Zero, nada, zilch, anything that spots them will cause them to flee.
Willingness to get into fights? Ahaha, no way, fighting? Feline? Nope. When they are forced to fight, for example a Dogo catches them, they are panicked and frantically try to rake. When assailed they back themselves to the nearest outcrop and go into a fit making wild predators not want to deal with that.
Those are their playing cards, they are the worst carnivoran fighters.

[Deleted]

By the way, blocking someone is forfeit. I think we can all agree that is forfeit. This means anything I say against you is automatically a me victory.

[PumAcinonyx SuperCat]

Ooh! What would you expect CoolJohnson ? Obviously, they would be pointless paragraphs to a human who couldn't spell their name until the age of 10. Do you not think?

Some things just aren't meant for some people. Imagine trying to explain Calculus to someone who cannot figure out 1 + 1. What miracle could help you explain Waves to someone who doesn't know which is faster between sound and light?

How wouldn’t they be pointless paragraphs? I don’t expect that much from their thinking capacity. I know there is a serious shortage of grey matter for them to be able to comprehend anything. I may be mean, but I'm not that mean. Why would I make a post for people whose living vessels are more repulsive than improperly mummified Egyptian crocodiles? I wrote that post for humans to read and for humans to comprehend, not for other irrelevant organisms. Far be it from me to do that.

Why would I put Usain Bolt and a sloth to run together and expect any similar results. Why would I show the link to you, Johnson except that I knew that unlike a previous "person" who had read it, you’re a infinitely more intelligent life form who even if he doesn't agree with it KNOWS that there's some logic (could be flawed, I'll still adjust the answer) in it? Even the guy who commented gave a far more reasonable feedback than the fox in question. He pointed out what he felt was wrong, even though he recognised the logic. I and the guy are actually friends and I understood what he said perfectly. He even liked (upvoted) my reply. That's what value adding people do and say. It's definitely not "pointless paragraphs"

Johnson, let me know what you think about the answer. You can comment in it or tell me here at FoodChain. The world really needs an influx of healthy, sound-brained humans like you and that guy that commented and a severe shortage of "humans" that would call lime orange.

[Deleted]

Tone on the yard, body full of hate. A nigga walk up to him like ''What up bro? I'm Kane. I heard about you and yo nephew out there gettin' cake it's a guard in here saying for a M we can escape!''
Tone like ''It ain't shit to get light million''
Turned to the guard, that's when dawg put that knife in him. His old crew, put a hit on him through Kane! Claude and Ray, Tone went from the yard to the grave!

[Deleted]

Jan 26, 2023 18:33:18 GMT @dorado said:

Imo Persian leopards (and possibly Sri Lankan and Congo leopards) are a cut above cougars. African leopard and cougar is close though.
An immature female Persian leopard killed a full grown eurasian wolf, I doubt any female cougar could do that

Think it was some little Indian or Steppe wolf. A Eurasian wolf may be a bit of a problem for a subadult Persian leopard (it was a leopardess too)

[PumAcinonyx SuperCat]

Block it? Why? You only block someone or something whose presence is influential enough to pose a threat. Nah, this thing isn't worth blocking. It must be severely overestimating its importance in the scheme of things for it to think I would block it.

Imagine deploying military forces to defend against a cockroach

[Deleted]

nobody likes you (besides lincoln) fyi. you are hardly present. you do nothing. you are nothing. you make nigerians look bad.
Anyways - 102.89.22.253

[Hardcastle]

Jan 27, 2023 11:12:36 GMT Bolushi said:

nobody likes you (besides lincoln) fyi. you are hardly present. you do nothing. you are nothing. you make nigerians look bad.
Anyways - 102.89.22.253

I like him. He is making posts now. I honestly think you guys should let your rivalry go.