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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2023 19:44:52 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2023 19:45:14 GMT
Odd how some pictures just don't want to show and I have to keep editing it until some do...
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 21, 2023 19:46:50 GMT
Odd how some pictures just don't want to show and I have to keep editing it until some do... Use private messages to Lincolns banned quora account as an image host. It works perfectly, whether you put in an address or upload, makes any size pic the perfect size and works every time. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2023 19:48:44 GMT
wermthewermI think if jaguars coexisted with moose they would prey on them, I think the jaguar would jump on its back and break its spine. I have been assured wermthewerm would probably disagree, so curious what cervid king thinks.
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Post by wermthewerm on Jan 22, 2023 8:46:49 GMT
If jaguars and moose coexisted, jaguars would take down cow moose and moose calves, similarly to cougars. They may try their luck with bull moose more often though, especially exhausted bulls following long battles during rut. I don't really see a jaguar jumping on the moose's back in a head-on confrontation, though.
I don't see why it wouldn't be able to do so to a jaguar face-to-face.
A roosevelt elk bull would be a fairer match for the jaguar. The pantherine can definitely beat the moose via ambush, though.
Distribution map of both the moose and jaguar. They don't coexist, and probably won't for a while until jaguars start moving north for whatever reason. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2023 8:58:35 GMT
If jaguars and moose coexisted, jaguars would take down cow moose and moose calves, similarly to cougars. They may try their luck with bull moose more often though, especially exhausted bulls following long battles during rut. I don't really see a jaguar jumping on the moose's back in a head-on confrontation, though.
I don't see why it wouldn't be able to do so to a jaguar face-to-face.
A roosevelt elk bull would be a fairer match for the jaguar. The pantherine can definitely beat the moose via ambush, though.
Distribution map of both the moose and jaguar. They don't coexist, and probably won't for a while until jaguars start moving north for whatever reason. I don't think cougars kill cow moose at all. If they do I'd expect the jaguar to be able to do more than that... |
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Post by wermthewerm on Jan 22, 2023 9:03:17 GMT
If jaguars and moose coexisted, jaguars would take down cow moose and moose calves, similarly to cougars. They may try their luck with bull moose more often though, especially exhausted bulls following long battles during rut. I don't really see a jaguar jumping on the moose's back in a head-on confrontation, though.
I don't see why it wouldn't be able to do so to a jaguar face-to-face.
A roosevelt elk bull would be a fairer match for the jaguar. The pantherine can definitely beat the moose via ambush, though.
Distribution map of both the moose and jaguar. They don't coexist, and probably won't for a while until jaguars start moving north for whatever reason. I don't think cougars kill cow moose at all. If they do I'd expect the jaguar to be able to do more than that... Cougars can kill cow moose via ambush, but they generally prefer moose calves. I wouldn't put it beyond a jaguar to take down a bull moose via ambush either, but face-to-face in a deathmatch where both sides want to kill the other, I think the moose would just overpower it (It's literally like 5 times larger and can give grizzly bears a hard time).
It should be noted that most cow moose killed by cougars are rather unhealthy, but an experienced cougar can also kill a healthier cow.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Jan 22, 2023 9:33:50 GMT
A large bull moose is too much for any jaguar; too big and too strong. They might have thin legs but carry a lot of mass per body length compared to other deer species; one kick could take out the jaguar in an instant. From a psychological point of view the bull moose has a tremendous advantage; he has stood his ground against grizzly bears, wolves, black bears and so on. It's nothing out of the ordinary for him to confront a threat (some of them significantly bigger than a jaguar) head-on but a big cat like the jaguar would be extremely nervous and hectic without a successful ambush opportunity against a much larger animal. My guess is that if both were cornered in an enclosed area, the moose would charge at the jaguar kicking the living hell out of it and the jaguar wouldn't even try to fight back but just try to get out of there.
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jan 24, 2023 14:52:48 GMT
A common misconception that cats can NEVER do anything impressive face-to-face 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️.
Tigers have killed gaurs in face to face, legit battles. Sometimes ambushes turn into fights, and it’s dishonest to say that once that happens, the cat ALWAYS runs away. There will be times when the cat is too hard pressed by hunger to run away and will actually stay around to fight.
I haven't voted, but I just want to disprove the notion that the jaguar would always lose in a face-to-face fight. Using a grizzly bear as a yardstick for a jaguar isn't entirely accurate. In my Cougar vs Bison post on Quora, I already posted how there are no records of bears killing bull elk in the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem. But cougars have killed bull elk. It doesn’t always follow an ABC ranking: Bull Moose > Grizzly > Jaguar.
A jaguar is more impressive at killing than a grizzly. If a gaur can lose to a tiger in a face-to-face fight, then it’s incorrect to say that a jaguar can NEVER win simply because this time it's face-to-face and not a "cowardly sneak attack strategy".
In an ambush, jaguar can definitely take this. Cougars already do. Cougars have killed both bull and cow moose (Check my 6th answer on Quora to see accounts). And given the fact that leopards can kill bull elands (heavier than moose) and they aren’t stated to be unhealthy, I believe cougars can kill healthy bull moose specimens. I've actually already posted studies, go check them out.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Jan 24, 2023 15:36:08 GMT
PumAcinonyx SuperCat In 2020 there was a documented case of a grizzly killing an adult male bull elk. This grizzly is an extremely popular individual as he was the largest bear in the area at this point. The weeks following the kill he guarded the elk carcass and kept chasing off a bunch of wolves. However, one day an elder and more experienced bear took over the carcass (this bear was tagged and weighed 270kg; smaller than "791" who they estimated to weigh over 300kg. Next to the elk the bear looked small, I assume it was a huge buck weighing at least 500kg). In the video below you'll see the grizzly driving the elk into the water and basically drowning it. As grizzlies usually never go after adult bull elk this was an exceptional case. With bears it's often the case that they are unable to apply an ambush due to their plantigrade feet making a lot of noise and their top speed being at the very maximum equal to the hooved animals they chase which isn't enough to catch them on even ground. Blaire Van Valkenburgh concluded in one of her works that bears are ill equipped to live an exclusively carnivorous lifestyle as their locomotary adaptions would hinder them to build consistency in this department; a grizzly bear is built for brute strength, durability and all-in-all physicality to bully other grizzlies and take the carcasses of black bears, wolves, cougars, basically every carnivore in his ecosystem. And the bear is extremely successful at that, even a large pack of wolves gives way to an adult male grizzly bear 90-95% of the time. The only way to be a regular successful hunter for a brown bear is to lure his prey into a terrain where he has the advantage, let it be shallow water, bushes or whatever. In this case the plantigrade stance becomes an advantage, his soles kind of surround the ground as a whole giving him greater stability whereas hooved animals are at an extremely high risk of tripping over and injuring themselves. So in a bear's case it isn't necessarily the combative side which makes him a comparatively unsuccessful regular predator but rather all factors that come before actually making physical contact with the prey item. Like you explained previously, cougars are successful predators of elk and have a much better track record than brown bears do, especially factoring the p4p status. However, if you were to place both of them into an enclosed area, the tides would shift into the exact opposite as cats have been trimmed by evolution to master everything that comes before physical contact in order to minimize the duration of the physical contact. That's just how things work, there can always be the odd-one out which in cats mostly are, like you said, desperate individuals or young adults. On the other hand, the truth and the most given scenario is that a big cat or just about any hypercarnivorous predator decides to avoid the fight 99/100 times and focuses on sustaining his condition the easiest way possible. Hence why I think, and I am 100% convinced by it, that placing jaguar and a bull moose 5-6x his size would be one-sided cruelty. It doesn't matter which animal you put into the jaguar's place, it could be a p4p highly rated prehistoric canid/felid/ursid or whatever. A beefy moose 5-6x its size will come out on top dominantly in an arena assuming it wants the fight.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2023 16:11:09 GMT
A common misconception that cats can NEVER do anything impressive face-to-face 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️. Tigers have killed gaurs in face to face, legit battles. Sometimes ambushes turn into fights, and it’s dishonest to say that once that happens, the cat ALWAYS runs away. There will be times when the cat is too hard pressed by hunger to run away and will actually stay around to fight. I haven't voted, but I just want to disprove the notion that the jaguar would always lose in a face-to-face fight. Using a grizzly bear as a yardstick for a jaguar isn't entirely accurate. In my Cougar vs Bison post on Quora, I already posted how there are no records of bears killing bull elk in the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem. But cougars have killed bull elk. It doesn’t always follow an ABC ranking: Bull Moose > Grizzly > Jaguar. A jaguar is more impressive at killing than a grizzly. If a gaur can lose to a tiger in a face-to-face fight, then it’s incorrect to say that a jaguar can NEVER win simply because this time it's face-to-face and not a "cowardly sneak attack strategy". In an ambush, jaguar can definitely take this. Cougars already do. Cougars have killed both bull and cow moose (Check my 6th answer on Quora to see accounts). And given the fact that leopards can kill bull elands (heavier than moose) and they aren’t stated to be unhealthy, I believe cougars can kill healthy bull moose specimens. I've actually already posted studies, go check them out. Cougars killing bull moose? Lol. Not healthy ones. If they did, ambush is a wonderful thing. The fact bears do it face to face and on specimens that don't have stage 5 bone cancer, AIDs, a broken leg and a testicular torsion is a pinworm swimming around in your colon since they don't use ambush. |
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Post by brobear on Jan 24, 2023 18:33:01 GMT
I seriously doubt this statement that cougars kill bull moose, even from ambush. If a cougar ever did this, it was that time of year when the moose had no antlers and he was probably asleep when he was ambushed. Face-to-face, I would wager on a bull moose against a lion or a tiger. If his antlers don't kill the big cat, a swift kick will. Jaguar stands practically no chance.
Fact: no cat species prefers a face-to-face fight and will avoid one if possible. This is why a sloth bear, if he stands his ground, can usually back down a tiger.
Grizzlies kill bull moose every year. This is a documented fact. IMO, probably from ambush or perhaps head-on against a moose without antlers. A brown bear is far more durable than a big cat.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2023 19:04:22 GMT
I seriously doubt this statement that cougars kill bull moose, even from ambush. If a cougar ever did this, it was that time of year when the moose had no antlers and he was probably asleep when he was ambushed. Face-to-face, I would wager on a bull moose against a lion or a tiger. If his antlers don't kill the big cat, a swift kick will. Jaguar stands practically no chance. Fact: no cat species prefers a face-to-face fight and will avoid one if possible. This is why a sloth bear, if he stands his ground, can usually back down a tiger. Grizzlies kill bull moose every year. This is a documented fact. IMO, probably from ambush or perhaps head-on against a moose without antlers. A brown bear is far more durable than a big cat. Cougars don't even prey on prime healthy male bull elk most of the time, so a bull moose?! Cougars are by and large deer and cow elk hunters. Supercat is under delusions, this guy thinks a cougar can kill a bison (based on 2 historical accounts of fails) and is on par with a jaguar at parity. He also thinks cougars dominate wolf packs, and says the only reason wolves survive in cougar territory is due to being social. He also seems to sweep the fact that cougars never prey on adult boars under the rug. Bears ease into a fight fairly easily, and don't have quarrels with a face to face contest, and are sloppy killers. So the fact that bears kill bull moose face to face is all the more impressive as even when they do ambush it escalates into a fight since they usually cannot just get a quick kill. The bear gaining the advantage and not getting gored horribly is a testament to their strength. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jan 24, 2023 19:31:30 GMT
I seriously doubt this statement that cougars kill bull moose, even from ambush. If a cougar ever did this, it was that time of year when the moose had no antlers and he was probably asleep when he was ambushed. Face-to-face, I would wager on a bull moose against a lion or a tiger. If his antlers don't kill the big cat, a swift kick will. Jaguar stands practically no chance. Fact: no cat species prefers a face-to-face fight and will avoid one if possible. This is why a sloth bear, if he stands his ground, can usually back down a tiger. Grizzlies kill bull moose every year. This is a documented fact. IMO, probably from ambush or perhaps head-on against a moose without antlers. A brown bear is far more durable than a big cat. Big Brother Bear, it's an honour to meet you, it really is. I've never once claimed or even attempted to claim in my 7 months of being active on Quora and Food Chain that cougars routinely prey on bull moose. Hell, they hardly even prey on adult moose at all regardless of gender. They mostly take calves and most of the adults they take are cows (when they decide to take adults, the relatively very few occasions when they decide to take adults). I'm not disputing any of these. What I've tried to do is show that the notion of cougars being restricted to "deer and elk" is simply not true. All I've said is that bull moose is the zenith of prey species that the mountain lion has the power (the ability) to kill in its natural habitat. Here are instances of cougars killing moose: • A cougar killed 18 moose in less than a year: billingsgazette.com/outdoors/ferocious-appetites-study-finds-mountain-lions-may-be-eating-more/article_d9cf046b-2c47-539f-a267-972e72e570b6.html • According to this study, adult moose of over 400 kg were taken by male cougars, though very rarely, adult moose made and feral horses (biggest prey in the study area) made up less than 2% of cougar diet: www.researchgate.net/publication/229939293_Cougar_Kill_Rate_and_Prey_Composition_in_a_Multiprey_System • In the state of Utah, adult moose are preyed on by mountain lions. 4 moose out of seven that were radio collared were killed by cougars: www.scribd.com/document/60251228/Utah-Moose-Statewide-Management-Plan • In 1955, one large male cougar killed two adult bull moose at Big Creek, Ontario. Here, bull moose can weigh more than 700 kg: books.google.com/books/about/The_Ghost_of_North_America.html?id=6pgboKfGtWcC You could claim that these bull moose are unhealthy, but it doesn’t have to be so before a cougar can kill it. Leopards kill elands that outweigh them by a massive amount, and in Africa there's no winter or anything of the sort and it's never stated that the elands are unhealthy. So yes, a cougar can kill a healthy bull moose. "CAN", not "USUALLY DOES SO". |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2023 19:35:04 GMT
''Unsupported Media
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Lmao. You bookmark this shit, loool.
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is "capable of breaking the bear's back with it's forefeet"
