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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2023 17:05:04 GMT
It's bad enough how physically OP T-rex was relative to it's prey-base, now it's also super intelligent? Something has gotta give. Again what hope did these prey animals have to possibly co-exist with t-rex if it was so amazing in every conceivable way? The fact I can so easily "feel" the motivation people have to gas it up, only makes it all the more suspicious. And that includes scientists, don't care, in fact it especially includes scientists with extra scrutiny. It only increases the likelihood you're a mega geek way too excited about t-rex if you actually worked your way up to being in the position to get paid to study and speculate on it and put out studies and articles about it. Wow, you think I'm a biased dog fan? I didn't get to that level, that's obsession the likes of which we have rarely encountered. The people involved in these studies are fan boys in the extreme, just ALSO very intelligent, successful and academically proficient. But so??? That merely gives them power, and power corrupts. They LOOOOOVE T-rex, and that's an issue. I think they are interpreting data in the most flattering possible way out of desire for elevating the t-rex. And data is absolutely prone to being misused in this way by the best of the best most elite scientists. Often in much more important and serious avenues than this one, like establishing government policies and altering the world, etc. There's always flexibility on how you interpret and analyse data. I see people motivated strongly to interpret in a very pro-t-rex way, and I see no one giving enough of a shit to worry about scrutinising their methodologies. Perfect breeding ground for misleading information. T-rex was MAYBE, best case scenario, as intelligent as a bird of prey. Which is actually very intelligent, but this reach to try and make out it was much more than that is eye-rolly to me. Not you, you're clearly impressionable and a victim to their propaganda (willing victim, perhaps), I'm specifically talking about the researchers analysing the data. I can see what they're doing. "Well if a crow is this smart then just imagine this similar but much bigger brain (not proportionately, but gloss over that) similarly compacted with neurological power, potentially... yeah, maybe the t-rex was super duper smart as well as big and awesome and as fast as possible and everything cool at once because we're geeks who got bullied in school". Yeah, I get it. My burden is knowing people too well. I don't stop at animals. So I can see how this is all bullshit in the same way you can see the spots on a leopard. Intelligent yes, THAT intelligent no. It wasn't too OP, I don't think you understand how formidable Ankylosaurus and Triceratops were. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 26, 2023 17:15:35 GMT
Really? Even though when I weighed as much as you Ankylosaurus had been my favourite animal for many years. Do you think I had special needs or???
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2023 17:41:45 GMT
I realized that I probably come off as a prick here. For that I apologize if that is the case. However, I also hope that I clarified my main point.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2023 17:45:19 GMT
They aren't smart, but that's because they don't need to be, somewhat similar to sharks. Somewhat similar to t rex. Contrary to popular belief, chickens are NOT the closest living relative of T. rex. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2023 17:50:42 GMT
Really? Even though when I weighed as much as you Ankylosaurus had been my favourite animal for many years. Do you think I had special needs or??? T-rex probably needed this intelligence to be able to take down large armoured prey. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 26, 2023 18:42:37 GMT
I think that's grossly underestimating how complicated the lives of animals with ape intelligence are. In fact the lives of wolves, far less intelligent than apes, are insanely far more complicated than those of t-rex likely would have been.
Wolves farm, they manage multiple herds of prey animals and know every individual in their territory and know what it ate last week and how it's bowel movements have been going and how it's gingivitis is tracking a long and etc, they store all such information in an internal refidex they are constantly thumbing through in their mind and that's scratching the surface but some indication of how complex and demanding a wolf's life is, intellectually.
Perhaps that is why a wolf's brain is 1/300th their body size, while a T-rex brain is 1/7000th. Making the wolf's brain 23 times larger, proportionately. Sorry, still think that probably gives a fairly good indication of intelligence. Not perfect, but good ball park.
Chimp brains are 1/150th their body weight. Tiger brains are 1/775th.
I'm open to T-rex brain analysis saying "hey, actually.. look at some indications, not as dumb as a brain 1/7000th their body weight seems." That would be fine and I'd imagine as much. I don't think brain weight to body weight ratio is "perfect". Killer whale brains are only 1/500th their body weight and think that's not fair, I can tell they are clearly smarter than wolves and at least comparable to chimps (the problem solving and intelligence required for their lives is also off the charts). Bottlenose dolphins even are only 1/375. Porpoises are 1/170. I think it's obvious they are no more intelligent than bottlenose dolphins and orcas, SO yes larger animals are taking a hit which is not accurate. Therefore I agree 1/7000 for the t-rex IS insulting.
Brain weight to body weight ratio is not a perfect flawless method of gauging intelligence. But it HAS to be factored in more so than what they are doing with t-rex.
Chicken brain weight to body weight ratio, ftr, is 1/937. Golden eagle 1/500.
Crow 1/133. Crows are very intelligent. We all know that. Still their small size is probably flattering them in this metric.
I believe the T-rex is taking a hit for his massive size, and the 1/7000 ratio is insulting to his intelligence, BUT not THAT insulting. It's not ape intelligent. Toothed cetaceans drop down to a very respectable 1/170 from a 1/500 for larger specimens.
From all the available indications, it looks like the logical thing to do would be to acknowledge the large size of the t-rex, say fair play that is making your brain size seem dumber than it is, and then you'd divide the ratio by about 4. Giving the t-rex a new updated ratio of 1/1750. Still, frankly, kind of terrible. But lets go further and say birds are weirdly unnaturally light in order to fly, that's skewing things, if the t-rex was built as light as a bird it's ratio would be much more flattering. Ok? Even so we need to really stretch to get down to eagle smart. To me THAT is even a big stretch, and I can't stretch further. Smarter than an eagle is just not plausible to me from any angle. As smart is my max. And that means it's still considerably less intelligent than an ape, and a wolf for that matter, and that makes sense.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2023 19:08:49 GMT
I think that's grossly underestimating how complicated the lives of animals with ape intelligence are. In fact the lives of wolves, far less intelligent than apes, are insanely far more complicated than those of t-rex likely would have been. Wolves farm, they manage multiple herds of prey animals and know every individual in their territory and know what it ate last week and how it's bowel movements have been going and how it's gingivitis is tracking a long and etc, they store all such information in an internal refidex they are constantly thumbing through in their mind and that's scratching the surface but some indication of how complex and demanding a wolf's life is, intellectually. Perhaps that is why a wolf's brain is 1/300th their body size, while a T-rex brain is 1/7000th. Making the wolf's brain 23 times larger, proportionately. Sorry, still think that probably gives a fairly good indication of intelligence. Not perfect, but good ball park. Chimp brains are 1/150th their body weight. Tiger brains are 1/775th. I'm open to T-rex brain analysis saying "hey, actually.. look at some indications, not as dumb as a brain 1/7000th their body weight seems." That would be fine and I'd imagine as much. I don't think brain weight to body weight ratio is "perfect". Killer whale brains are only 1/500th their body weight and think that's not fair, I can tell they are clearly smarter than wolves and at least comparable to chimps (the problem solving and intelligence required for their lives is also off the charts). Bottlenose dolphins even are only 1/375. Porpoises are 1/170. I think it's obvious they are no more intelligent than bottlenose dolphins and orcas, SO yes larger animals are taking a hit which is not accurate. Therefore I agree 1/7000 for the t-rex IS insulting. Brain weight to body weight ratio is not a perfect flawless method of gauging intelligence. But it HAS to be factored in more so than what they are doing with t-rex. Chicken brain weight to body weight ratio, ftr, is 1/937. Golden eagle 1/500. Crow 1/133. Crows are very intelligent. We all know that. Still their small size is probably flattering them in this metric. I believe the T-rex is taking a hit for his massive size, and the 1/7000 ratio is insulting to his intelligence, BUT not THAT insulting. It's not ape intelligent. Toothed cetaceans drop down to a very respectable 1/170 from a 1/500 for larger specimens. From all the available indications, it looks like the logical thing to do would be to acknowledge the large size of the t-rex, say fair play that is making your brain size seem dumber than it is, and then you'd divide the ratio by about 4. Giving the t-rex a new updated ratio of 1/1750. Still, frankly, kind of terrible. But lets go further and say birds are weirdly unnaturally light in order to fly, that's skewing things, if the t-rex was built as light as a bird it's ratio would be much more flattering. Ok? Even so we need to really stretch to get down to eagle smart. To me THAT is even a big stretch, and I can't stretch further. Smarter than an eagle is just not plausible to me from any angle. As smart is my max. And that means it's still considerably less intelligent than an ape, and a wolf for that matter, and that makes sense. Where'd you pull 1/7000 from? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2023 19:13:55 GMT
I think that's grossly underestimating how complicated the lives of animals with ape intelligence are. In fact the lives of wolves, far less intelligent than apes, are insanely far more complicated than those of t-rex likely would have been. Wolves farm, they manage multiple herds of prey animals and know every individual in their territory and know what it ate last week and how it's bowel movements have been going and how it's gingivitis is tracking a long and etc, they store all such information in an internal refidex they are constantly thumbing through in their mind and that's scratching the surface but some indication of how complex and demanding a wolf's life is, intellectually. Perhaps that is why a wolf's brain is 1/300th their body size, while a T-rex brain is 1/7000th. Making the wolf's brain 23 times larger, proportionately. Sorry, still think that probably gives a fairly good indication of intelligence. Not perfect, but good ball park. Chimp brains are 1/150th their body weight. Tiger brains are 1/775th. I'm open to T-rex brain analysis saying "hey, actually.. look at some indications, not as dumb as a brain 1/7000th their body weight seems." That would be fine and I'd imagine as much. I don't think brain weight to body weight ratio is "perfect". Killer whale brains are only 1/500th their body weight and think that's not fair, I can tell they are clearly smarter than wolves and at least comparable to chimps (the problem solving and intelligence required for their lives is also off the charts). Bottlenose dolphins even are only 1/375. Porpoises are 1/170. I think it's obvious they are no more intelligent than bottlenose dolphins and orcas, SO yes larger animals are taking a hit which is not accurate. Therefore I agree 1/7000 for the t-rex IS insulting. Brain weight to body weight ratio is not a perfect flawless method of gauging intelligence. But it HAS to be factored in more so than what they are doing with t-rex. Chicken brain weight to body weight ratio, ftr, is 1/937. Golden eagle 1/500. Crow 1/133. Crows are very intelligent. We all know that. Still their small size is probably flattering them in this metric. I believe the T-rex is taking a hit for his massive size, and the 1/7000 ratio is insulting to his intelligence, BUT not THAT insulting. It's not ape intelligent. Toothed cetaceans drop down to a very respectable 1/170 from a 1/500 for larger specimens. From all the available indications, it looks like the logical thing to do would be to acknowledge the large size of the t-rex, say fair play that is making your brain size seem dumber than it is, and then you'd divide the ratio by about 4. Giving the t-rex a new updated ratio of 1/1750. Still, frankly, kind of terrible. But lets go further and say birds are weirdly unnaturally light in order to fly, that's skewing things, if the t-rex was built as light as a bird it's ratio would be much more flattering. Ok? Even so we need to really stretch to get down to eagle smart. To me THAT is even a big stretch, and I can't stretch further. Smarter than an eagle is just not plausible to me from any angle. As smart is my max. And that means it's still considerably less intelligent than an ape, and a wolf for that matter, and that makes sense. Where'd you pull 1/7000 from? Actually I just realised that the people working on the study took theropod brain mass estimates from like 2013, despite there being a more recent estimate made in 2020. Why they did this? No idea. Guess you're right somehow. They probably overestimated a lot of crap. I'll see what the 2020 study said about theropod brain masses and try make a new estimate for t-rex's intelligence. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 26, 2023 19:22:04 GMT
I looked up estimated brain weight of t-rex, and compared that with estimated body weight of t-rex. Now, they could be shooting themselves in the foot on the intelligence front by over-estimating the body weight, probably. But we are just so so so far off it doesn't matter. We can shrink down their body, upscale their brain, correct for "massive size" penalties which can be unfair/misleading, we can do everything and more but still it doesn't seem like the brain of the t-rex is that spectacular. I see eagle intelligence as a best case scenario for the t-rex. I also see it as a plausible logical level of intelligence a t-rex might have. Which is actually very high, animal kingdom wise. I think that's still "surprising" intelligence that would indicate the t-rex has been underestimated.
I just think they got greedy going for more.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2023 20:25:10 GMT
I think that's grossly underestimating how complicated the lives of animals with ape intelligence are. In fact the lives of wolves, far less intelligent than apes, are insanely far more complicated than those of t-rex likely would have been. Wolves farm, they manage multiple herds of prey animals and know every individual in their territory and know what it ate last week and how it's bowel movements have been going and how it's gingivitis is tracking a long and etc, they store all such information in an internal refidex they are constantly thumbing through in their mind and that's scratching the surface but some indication of how complex and demanding a wolf's life is, intellectually. Perhaps that is why a wolf's brain is 1/300th their body size, while a T-rex brain is 1/7000th. Making the wolf's brain 23 times larger, proportionately. Sorry, still think that probably gives a fairly good indication of intelligence. Not perfect, but good ball park. Chimp brains are 1/150th their body weight. Tiger brains are 1/775th. I'm open to T-rex brain analysis saying "hey, actually.. look at some indications, not as dumb as a brain 1/7000th their body weight seems." That would be fine and I'd imagine as much. I don't think brain weight to body weight ratio is "perfect". Killer whale brains are only 1/500th their body weight and think that's not fair, I can tell they are clearly smarter than wolves and at least comparable to chimps (the problem solving and intelligence required for their lives is also off the charts). Bottlenose dolphins even are only 1/375. Porpoises are 1/170. I think it's obvious they are no more intelligent than bottlenose dolphins and orcas, SO yes larger animals are taking a hit which is not accurate. Therefore I agree 1/7000 for the t-rex IS insulting. Brain weight to body weight ratio is not a perfect flawless method of gauging intelligence. But it HAS to be factored in more so than what they are doing with t-rex. Chicken brain weight to body weight ratio, ftr, is 1/937. Golden eagle 1/500. Crow 1/133. Crows are very intelligent. We all know that. Still their small size is probably flattering them in this metric. I believe the T-rex is taking a hit for his massive size, and the 1/7000 ratio is insulting to his intelligence, BUT not THAT insulting. It's not ape intelligent. Toothed cetaceans drop down to a very respectable 1/170 from a 1/500 for larger specimens. From all the available indications, it looks like the logical thing to do would be to acknowledge the large size of the t-rex, say fair play that is making your brain size seem dumber than it is, and then you'd divide the ratio by about 4. Giving the t-rex a new updated ratio of 1/1750. Still, frankly, kind of terrible. But let’s go further and say birds are weirdly unnaturally light in order to fly, that's skewing things, if the t-rex was built as light as a bird it's ratio would be much more flattering. Ok? Even so we need to really stretch to get down to eagle smart. To me THAT is even a big stretch, and I can't stretch further. Smarter than an eagle is just not plausible to me from any angle. As smart is my max. And that means it's still considerably less intelligent than an ape, and a wolf for that matter, and that makes sense. Alright, if we’re going off of brain size, sperm whales should be extremely intelligent. They’re certainly not dumb, but I don’t think they’re the smartest animals, even among marine animals. They also don’t need much intelligence besides hunting giant squid and fending off killer whales. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2023 20:53:23 GMT
I was checkmating you. Sooo, chickens aren't smart because they don't need to be, yet their ancestors were as intelligent as monkeys! You don't need to be a genius to realise that evolution doesn't just work like that. How were you unaware of this? Lol? Also chickens are more closely related to smaller dinosaurs. So all the smaller dinosaurs as dumb as sharks? Wow, must've been a zombie apocalypse in the dinosaur age. No wonder they went extinct. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2023 20:53:54 GMT
I think that's grossly underestimating how complicated the lives of animals with ape intelligence are. In fact the lives of wolves, far less intelligent than apes, are insanely far more complicated than those of t-rex likely would have been. Wolves farm, they manage multiple herds of prey animals and know every individual in their territory and know what it ate last week and how it's bowel movements have been going and how it's gingivitis is tracking a long and etc, they store all such information in an internal refidex they are constantly thumbing through in their mind and that's scratching the surface but some indication of how complex and demanding a wolf's life is, intellectually. Perhaps that is why a wolf's brain is 1/300th their body size, while a T-rex brain is 1/7000th. Making the wolf's brain 23 times larger, proportionately. Sorry, still think that probably gives a fairly good indication of intelligence. Not perfect, but good ball park. Chimp brains are 1/150th their body weight. Tiger brains are 1/775th. I'm open to T-rex brain analysis saying "hey, actually.. look at some indications, not as dumb as a brain 1/7000th their body weight seems." That would be fine and I'd imagine as much. I don't think brain weight to body weight ratio is "perfect". Killer whale brains are only 1/500th their body weight and think that's not fair, I can tell they are clearly smarter than wolves and at least comparable to chimps (the problem solving and intelligence required for their lives is also off the charts). Bottlenose dolphins even are only 1/375. Porpoises are 1/170. I think it's obvious they are no more intelligent than bottlenose dolphins and orcas, SO yes larger animals are taking a hit which is not accurate. Therefore I agree 1/7000 for the t-rex IS insulting. Brain weight to body weight ratio is not a perfect flawless method of gauging intelligence. But it HAS to be factored in more so than what they are doing with t-rex. Chicken brain weight to body weight ratio, ftr, is 1/937. Golden eagle 1/500. Crow 1/133. Crows are very intelligent. We all know that. Still their small size is probably flattering them in this metric. I believe the T-rex is taking a hit for his massive size, and the 1/7000 ratio is insulting to his intelligence, BUT not THAT insulting. It's not ape intelligent. Toothed cetaceans drop down to a very respectable 1/170 from a 1/500 for larger specimens. From all the available indications, it looks like the logical thing to do would be to acknowledge the large size of the t-rex, say fair play that is making your brain size seem dumber than it is, and then you'd divide the ratio by about 4. Giving the t-rex a new updated ratio of 1/1750. Still, frankly, kind of terrible. But let’s go further and say birds are weirdly unnaturally light in order to fly, that's skewing things, if the t-rex was built as light as a bird it's ratio would be much more flattering. Ok? Even so we need to really stretch to get down to eagle smart. To me THAT is even a big stretch, and I can't stretch further. Smarter than an eagle is just not plausible to me from any angle. As smart is my max. And that means it's still considerably less intelligent than an ape, and a wolf for that matter, and that makes sense. Alright, if we’re going off of brain size, sperm whales should be extremely intelligent. They’re certainly not dumb, but I don’t think they’re the smartest animals, even among marine animals. They also don’t need much intelligence besides hunting giant squid and fending off killer whales. You are being dumb. Sperm whales are very smart. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2023 20:56:19 GMT
You don't need to be a genius to realise that evolution doesn't just work like that. How were you unaware of this? Lol? Also chickens are more closely related to smaller dinosaurs. So all the smaller dinosaurs as dumb as sharks? Wow, must've been a zombie apocalypse in the dinosaur age. No wonder they went extinct. Actually, Velociraptor and Troodon were very intelligent. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2023 21:45:21 GMT
So all the smaller dinosaurs as dumb as sharks? Wow, must've been a zombie apocalypse in the dinosaur age. No wonder they went extinct. Actually, Velociraptor and Troodon were very intelligent. Ling and me are playing chess, shhh |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 27, 2023 1:20:27 GMT
Alright, if we’re going off of brain size, sperm whales should be extremely intelligent. They’re certainly not dumb, but I don’t think they’re the smartest animals, even among marine animals. They also don’t need much intelligence besides hunting giant squid and fending off killer whales. Well it's like you're not reading me at all, because I'm very specifically talking about brain weight to body weight ratio, and when you do that it doesn't bode well for the sperm whale at all, with a 1/4000 ratio. As I've been saying, it's obvious the larger animals are being unfairly punished with this, their ratio becomes poor relative to smaller animals of likely equal intelligence as their bodies reach monumental weights and their brain size can't really keep up, and apparently doesn't need to. At equal sizes brain weight to body weight ratio checks out as a fairly consistently good gauge of intelligence. Things get skewed with massive animals getting worse ratios the bigger they get while apparently retaining intelligence. Given this, the sperm whale's ratio should actually be much worse than the t-rex, since it's five times larger, but it's much better, making it fairly undeniable it has a more powerful brain. Elephants are about equal in size to t-rex, and have a brain 5 times the size, with a 1/1100 ratio, strongly suggesting they too are much more intelligent. Their may be some density of neurons with T-rex maybe, but I don't think it's going to be able to overcome these massive size differences. |
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