Ranking Carnivora Forum members by intelligence
Dec 14, 2023 22:55:14 GMT
PumAcinonyx SuperCat and bongoeurycerus like this
Post by Bolushi on Dec 14, 2023 22:55:14 GMT
bongoeurycerus
Seeing the arguments posted on Carnivora, it's important to note that even if a cat has super muscular forelimbs, the muscles don't actually affect the grappling match much, since the muscles are there to allow dexterity. This was all outlined by Hardcastle here.
Most importantly -
"You can actually name all the muscles responsible for dexterity-
1. Pronator Teres: This muscle is located on the anterior (front) side of the forearm. It helps in pronation of the forearm, which is the inward rotation of the palm.
2. Pronator Quadratus: Another muscle involved in pronation, located deeper in the forearm. It works alongside the pronator teres to rotate the forearm.
3. Flexor Carpi Radialis: This muscle is located on the anterior side of the forearm, closer to the thumb side. It flexes the wrist and helps in radial deviation, which is moving the hand towards the thumb side.
4. Palmaris Longus: This muscle is not present in everyone, but if present, it is located on the anterior side of the forearm. It assists in flexing the wrist.
5. Flexor Carpi Ulnaris: This muscle is located on the anterior side of the forearm, closer to the pinky side. It flexes the wrist and helps in ulnar deviation, which is moving the hand towards the pinky side.
6. Flexor Digitorum Profundus: This muscle runs along the inner side of the forearm and is responsible for flexing the fingers, including the middle, ring, and little fingers.
7. Flexor Digitorum Superficialis: This muscle is located on top of the flexor digitorum profundus and is responsible for flexing the fingers, including the middle, ring, and index fingers.
8. Flexor Pollicis Longus: This muscle is located on the anterior side of the forearm and is responsible for flexing the thumb.
These are all pronounced and bulked in cats, and make them look like they have fat forearms. They are all irrelevant in dogs and atrophied, they are irrelevant in regards to any kind of strength a dog can actually use. That much is true, so the fat little forearms of a cat do represent a "strength advantage" but a very specific little strength advantage that is connected ONLY to a range of motions a dog never tries to use anyway. So if the cat and dog had a niche strength contest where it's like "who can pop a watermelon with their hands" the cat would win and the dog would be like "I... can't... I can't do it", and everyone would laugh at the dog and lift the cat aloft their shoulders and award the cat a trophy. But any kind of strength test the dog CAN do, one in line with the ranges of motion it's body is designed to perform, the dog's limb bone robusticity would be a decisive factor that gets reflected in the results."
Those cats with super muscular forelimbs aren't taking bigger prey than more robust cats with less muscular forelimbs. This puma -
Cannot tackle cattle or boar the same way this jaguar could -
This dog -
Does not beat this dog -
So by posting those images of ocelots with impressive bulky forelimbs they're basically just saying "well this ocelot looks pretty dexterous... how could an SBT possibly deal with dexterity?"
Seeing the arguments posted on Carnivora, it's important to note that even if a cat has super muscular forelimbs, the muscles don't actually affect the grappling match much, since the muscles are there to allow dexterity. This was all outlined by Hardcastle here.
Most importantly -
"You can actually name all the muscles responsible for dexterity-
1. Pronator Teres: This muscle is located on the anterior (front) side of the forearm. It helps in pronation of the forearm, which is the inward rotation of the palm.
2. Pronator Quadratus: Another muscle involved in pronation, located deeper in the forearm. It works alongside the pronator teres to rotate the forearm.
3. Flexor Carpi Radialis: This muscle is located on the anterior side of the forearm, closer to the thumb side. It flexes the wrist and helps in radial deviation, which is moving the hand towards the thumb side.
4. Palmaris Longus: This muscle is not present in everyone, but if present, it is located on the anterior side of the forearm. It assists in flexing the wrist.
5. Flexor Carpi Ulnaris: This muscle is located on the anterior side of the forearm, closer to the pinky side. It flexes the wrist and helps in ulnar deviation, which is moving the hand towards the pinky side.
6. Flexor Digitorum Profundus: This muscle runs along the inner side of the forearm and is responsible for flexing the fingers, including the middle, ring, and little fingers.
7. Flexor Digitorum Superficialis: This muscle is located on top of the flexor digitorum profundus and is responsible for flexing the fingers, including the middle, ring, and index fingers.
8. Flexor Pollicis Longus: This muscle is located on the anterior side of the forearm and is responsible for flexing the thumb.
These are all pronounced and bulked in cats, and make them look like they have fat forearms. They are all irrelevant in dogs and atrophied, they are irrelevant in regards to any kind of strength a dog can actually use. That much is true, so the fat little forearms of a cat do represent a "strength advantage" but a very specific little strength advantage that is connected ONLY to a range of motions a dog never tries to use anyway. So if the cat and dog had a niche strength contest where it's like "who can pop a watermelon with their hands" the cat would win and the dog would be like "I... can't... I can't do it", and everyone would laugh at the dog and lift the cat aloft their shoulders and award the cat a trophy. But any kind of strength test the dog CAN do, one in line with the ranges of motion it's body is designed to perform, the dog's limb bone robusticity would be a decisive factor that gets reflected in the results."
Those cats with super muscular forelimbs aren't taking bigger prey than more robust cats with less muscular forelimbs. This puma -
Cannot tackle cattle or boar the same way this jaguar could -
This dog -
Does not beat this dog -
So by posting those images of ocelots with impressive bulky forelimbs they're basically just saying "well this ocelot looks pretty dexterous... how could an SBT possibly deal with dexterity?"
