Ranking Carnivora Forum members by intelligence

[s]

Aug 16, 2023 3:36:22 GMT Hardcastle said:

Aug 15, 2023 19:39:39 GMT s said:

I mean that was a human victory if anything, i can get a rattlesnake to distract an Elephant while im aiming the Elephant with an autocannon as well.

But there's no autocannon, the dogs made it safe for the people to handle the elephant and tie it up with ropes, live capturing it. Without the dogs subjugating the elephant and taking the fight out of it first, approaching people would be thrown and trampled. This is what bulldogs/boarhounds are for, being a buffer between fragile delicate humans and dangerous powerful unruly animals. They make these beasts mild so they can be handled, and they do it by draining their fight and resistance out of them.

If your argument was about the fact the dogs aren't killing these animals and lack killing ability, I'd be in some trouble because that is true, that's not really their thing (especially a pure bulldog, it becomes slightly more their thing with terrier or sighthound admixture). You are making the mistake of questioning their ability to just survive engaging with a bison or spanish bull or aurochs or whatever, you are asserting these big bovines would just kill them easily, and that's a huge mistake because there's no shortage of evidence that this is not true.










etc etc

Its why they exist. There's a big angry bull or aurochs over there, and the humans are shrugging and looking at eachother knowing if they approach they will be killed, and so the dogs are sent in, the bull tries to kill them, can't, gets drained and beaten up and has pain administered to it until it cries uncle and is made mild, and THEN the humans can come in and do whatever. Might be just kill it with a spear, in the early days, but also now you can rope them up or load them into trucks for transport or castrate them or do whatever. None of it is possible without the bulldog taking the fight out of the bull. ESPECIALLY for the rustic semi-wild bulls like the iberian fighting bulls and scrub bulls and etc. There are tame cattle now that can be gently persuaded, but this didn't used to be true and still isn't true for spanish fighting bulls, so you need bulldogs.

The word "mastiff" actually has nothing to do with "massive", it originally was derived from the latin word "mansuetus", meaning "to tame and make mild". And "Mastiffs" were originally actually bulldogs, the word has since been hijacked by all sorts of big silly dogs (like your spanish mastiff that you posted- really an LGD and quite worthless for combat). Other latin words like presa and fila have similar meaning; To seize and arrest and subdue etc etc. This lineage of dogs are made for subjugation. Like a fish is made to swim.

Bull baiting was a sport invented by the Earl of Warren some time before 1088 AD after he witnessed butcher's dogs (like Alanos) struggling with an ornery Bull, he found it very entertaining how the dogs were being tossed and coming back for more. So they invent bull baiting, and then over the decades and centuries they fine-tune it to be more entertaining, and one way they did that was in shrinking the bulldogs down from alano size (60-90 lbs) to about 20-30 lbs to make them more liable to be thrown further in the air.


And yes the bull was tethered so people could stand around watching it, otherwise the action would move crazily out into farmers crops and crash through market stalls and etc etc.

Bull baiting is but a small little diversion humans briefly dabbled in, this lineage of dog actually traces back to the embryonic murmurings of cattle and swine domestication. Hunting of wild Aurochs and wild boar with broad-mouthed holding dogs in northern Iran 10 000 odd years ago. These dogs are responsible for the domestication of cattle and pigs using their gripping into submission technique. The "alano" is still named after people who migrated from that region with those dogs into Spain and western Europe, the Alans. The alaunts were also so named for this reason. Alaunt de Boucheries means butcher's alaunt, or bulldog like the alano espanol, then they also made the boarhound varieties the alaunt gentil and the alaunt veutreres using this bulldog base and crossing it to hounds.

I give you all this to help you understand the magnitude of the history we are talking about, so you don't think they are called bulldogs on a petty superficial whim and then really are silly looking fighting dogs of no great merit. No the dog fighting and bull baiting are trivial little side distractions, this is a real animal evolved for thousands and thousands of years to be expertly adapted to subjugating bulls and boars to a higher level than what is expected of wild predators. That's the reality.

My final post here, probably:

Sizeable amount of half-truths. Listen here. You seem obsessed with that particular Katrina hurricane freak case. And from that you extrapolate a single Pitbull would beat a Bison. Equivalent of this would be "Eurasian Lynx wrestled down a Wolf in a photo once, this means it's favoured over a Bear by extrapolation!", Keep in mind you claimed a single Pitbull would defeat 5 Wolves or 5 Cheetahs which is ludicrous. But from the pictures the Bull looked very overweight and hornless. The difference between an overweight and hornless cattle Bull is much much larger than the difference between a "good for nothing blue-nosed petbull" and a "elite fighting hunting gamebred Pitbull". A 500kg fighting bull despite weighting much less than a cattle bull would win a fight against 2 of them in minutes. The images you posted don't look like Spanish fighting bulls at all, they come mostly in black and brown colours, but i have never seen a spotted Fighting Bull ever. The main strenght of Pitbulls is their agressivity and pain tolerance, both of these traits were artificially introduced by humans to make dogfights be longer and more exciting to watch. They focused on altering the nerve system so these fights could keep going without either retreating due to pain. Pitbulls are perhaps when it comes to agression and pain tolerance one of the most superb animals in the world. Their stamina is also very good but not out of the ordinary for fighting dogs. Homever their weaponry is quite unremarkable. Very short canines compared to closely-related Wolves. My point was as follows, if entire Packs for Wolves, each of them having much better teeth and weaponry than a Pitbull (albeit less pain tolerance and less agressive) have trouble taking down adult Moose. Let alone a Bison. I simply don't comprehend how a single Pitbull is going to do anything serious to a Bull Moose on a reasonable amount of time, sure, unlike the wolves It could take more punishment and return to the fight but it's teeth aren't nearly as powerful as those of Wolves, who hunt in packs and attack mostly Moose calves and still take some time. And we are talking Moose, let alone Bison or Fighting Bull. 

You treat me as some kind of "cat fanatic" when i have speaked out repeteadly on Carnivora about Cervids being underrated. I saw a Jaguar Vs Alaskan Moose poll which was just ridiculous to me. And yes i did request a Coyote Vs Staffordshire bull terrier poll, but i do back the Staffordshire there. I have sided against felines in polls vs ursids/wolves/dogs any times.

[s]

Personally you just heavily underestimate Bovines. Here is a massive pack of Wolves Vs Bison video, at the end the other Bisons run and all the Wolves Focus on attacking a single female Bison. And it still takes them a decent amount of time. Each of those Wolves have far more powerful jaws than Pitbulls.

[s]

This is just a cub showing extreme resistance and resisting a Wolf attack for a minute. The only account of a Domestic Dog "killing" a Bison i have searched is this account, surprise it's a 6 month old female zoo cub, and autopsy revealed she died "due to running into a fence post or tree" not because of the dog

www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/golden-gate-park-baby-bison-found-dead-2443708.php

[Bolushi]

For what it's worth there's a case of 3 feral dogs killing a yearling musk ox -

[s]

Aug 26, 2023 14:03:47 GMT Bolushi said:

For what it's worth there's a case of 3 feral dogs killing a yearling musk ox -

I looked up the story. 

"Lincoln returned to the site a half-hour later. The muskox looked weak, and the dogs were still attacking. The next morning the muskox was lying on the ground, still alive, and one of the dogs had been shot. The whereabouts of the other dogs are unknown, and local hunters are on the lookout."

Surviving after several hours of continued attack is a good achievement. From what i see it was an adolescent Musk Ow not an adult. Musk Ows are one of the Bovines with the least weaponry from what i see. And each of those 3 dogs is both a better fighter, heavier and stronger than your average Pitbull. Pitbulls don't have enough dentition to kill or seriously wound a large bovine in a reasonable amount of time (under 20 minutes). Some people here seem to believe Pitbulls have infinite stamina pumped by some kind of mechanical artificial heart and that it's utterly impossible for them to have "the fight taken out of them"

[Bolushi]

Aug 26, 2023 17:52:55 GMT s said:

Aug 26, 2023 14:03:47 GMT Bolushi said:

For what it's worth there's a case of 3 feral dogs killing a yearling musk ox -

I looked up the story. 

"Lincoln returned to the site a half-hour later. The muskox looked weak, and the dogs were still attacking. The next morning the muskox was lying on the ground, still alive, and one of the dogs had been shot. The whereabouts of the other dogs are unknown, and local hunters are on the lookout."

Surviving after several hours of continued attack is a good achievement. From what i see it was an adolescent Musk Ow not an adult. Musk Ows are one of the Bovines with the least weaponry from what i see. And each of those 3 dogs is both a better fighter, heavier and stronger than your average Pitbull. Pitbulls don't have enough dentition to kill or seriously wound a large bovine in a reasonable amount of time (under 20 minutes). Some people here seem to believe Pitbulls have infinite stamina pumped by some kind of mechanical artificial heart and that it's utterly impossible for them to have "the fight taken out of them"

All 3 of those dogs would get fucking rolled by any APBT that deserves to live, like the Kangals and Central Asian Shepherds do. Those dogs are total shit at fighting, like wolves. Those dogs are no better than a GSD. Would get sent to the shadow realm in minutes.
my.mail.ru/mail/scott_smit/video/_myvideo/550.html
It was a yearling. Not a fully grown adult. However it's still a big, strong and very durable. It's not like wolves do much better than that. In turn pitbulls do 100,000,000,000x better than either.

[s]

Aug 26, 2023 17:58:13 GMT Bolushi said:

Aug 26, 2023 17:52:55 GMT s said:

I looked up the story. 

"Lincoln returned to the site a half-hour later. The muskox looked weak, and the dogs were still attacking. The next morning the muskox was lying on the ground, still alive, and one of the dogs had been shot. The whereabouts of the other dogs are unknown, and local hunters are on the lookout."

Surviving after several hours of continued attack is a good achievement. From what i see it was an adolescent Musk Ow not an adult. Musk Ows are one of the Bovines with the least weaponry from what i see. And each of those 3 dogs is both a better fighter, heavier and stronger than your average Pitbull. Pitbulls don't have enough dentition to kill or seriously wound a large bovine in a reasonable amount of time (under 20 minutes). Some people here seem to believe Pitbulls have infinite stamina pumped by some kind of mechanical artificial heart and that it's utterly impossible for them to have "the fight taken out of them"

All 3 of those dogs would get fucking rolled by any APBT that deserves to live, like the Kangals and Central Asian Shepherds do. Those dogs are total shit at fighting, like wolves.

1v3 you say? 1v1 a good Pitbull could do it. Even though it's dentition is probably somewhat inferior (since i guess those are large feral dogs about 100lbs),

You'd be suprised how important killer instinct is in fights. Sheer aggression can make up for lack in strength, weight or numbers. That Sheer agression is what compensates for the mediocre dentition of Pitbulls. I would back a 20kg Pitbull over a 35kg Tiger Cub who doesn't have the agression to swiftly deal with the Pitbull because of this.

[s]

Pitbull stamina is indeed very good but there isn't a large difference with other fighting dogs, who also have great stamina. Homever even Pitbulls have a remaining self-preservation instinct, even if much smaller than that of other animals (because humans especifically bred them for pain tolerance by modifying nerve system) still exists. It's indeed possible to "take the fight out of a gamebred Pit" but because of this mentioned nerve modification they need to take a more severe beating than your average animal can. To simplify a lot imagine it like a Healthbar. A Pitbull will keep attacking until it's 30% left. While a normal animal would stop at 50%.

[Bolushi]

Aug 26, 2023 18:32:10 GMT s said:

Aug 26, 2023 17:58:13 GMT Bolushi said:

All 3 of those dogs would get fucking rolled by any APBT that deserves to live, like the Kangals and Central Asian Shepherds do. Those dogs are total shit at fighting, like wolves.

1v3 you say? 1v1 a good Pitbull could do it. Even though it's dentition is probably somewhat inferior (since i guess those are large feral dogs about 100lbs),

You'd be suprised how important killer instinct is in fights. Sheer aggression can make up for lack in strength, weight or numbers. That Sheer agression is what compensates for the mediocre dentition of Pitbulls. I would back a 20kg Pitbull over a 35kg Tiger Cub who doesn't have the agression to swiftly deal with the Pitbull because of this.

All 3 at once probably not.
Killer instinct isn't so important if you're unable to kill the target. The video I posted above was of a pitbull beating a much larger GSD with superior killer instinct, GSDs are the same as wild canines in their ability to kill. This ability was not able to be put to use because the pitbull was destroying the GSD past the 60 second mark.

[Bolushi]

Aug 26, 2023 18:36:04 GMT s said:

Pitbull stamina is indeed very good but there isn't a large difference with other fighting dogs, who also have great stamina. Homever even Pitbulls have a remaining self-preservation instinct, even if much smaller than that of other animals (because humans especifically bred them for pain tolerance by modifying nerve system) still exists. It's indeed possible to "take the fight out of a gamebred Pit" but because of this mentioned nerve modification they need to take a more severe beating than your average animal can. To simplify a lot imagine it like a Healthbar. A Pitbull will keep attacking until it's 30% left. While a normal animal would stop at 50%.

Can you name another fighting dog that can fight another dog for as long as this? Maybe find a video?
my.mail.ru/bk/joseph.ayoub/video/_myvideo/302.html
This is a very typical fight BTW. The longest fight on record was 6 hours.
All bull breeds can fight for a long time, longer than other dogs in general, however none can fight as long as a pitbull. They aren't bred to see other dogs as prey, they see other animals as prey. Still, bull & terriers are often noted as better fighters with more stamina/heart even in the field but not nearly as much of a difference as in a dog fight. Both a Dogo Argentino and English Bull Terrier are extremely comparable and close on their ability to lug hogs, but some small things to note will be the EBT is more unrestful, its decisions are more ignorant of injury, not vocal at all when injured while the Dogo might whimper if it gets gored and bitten badly, doesn't regrip as much due to how unbothered it is etc. etc.
The differences are considerably smaller with bull terrier and bulldog.
The reason a boarhound/bulldog is superior in the minds of many hog hunters is due to size. Boarhounds also have a better nose, and get a little bigger than bulldogs and are lots faster so a harder hit. None of it is being as good or better at actually fighting, just better at the hunting aspect of things. Bulldogs are known to be better than bull terriers as they're usually bigger with superior stopping power as a result. Also just as careless with equal pain tolerance.
Bull terriers are still a good choice and opinions vary hunter to hunter.
Also some pitbulls will keep attacking until it's 0% left. Dead. This pitbull is on death's doorstep and is still flopping around like a fish trying to attack.
my.mail.ru/mail/agop201401/video/1/72.html
Usually, the only time some pitbulls quit is when it has been in the box for an hour, or multiple hours, and is exhausted. So it jumps the box. No amount of injury will bother a pitbull.

[Hardcastle]

Aug 26, 2023 13:41:23 GMT s said:

My final post here, probably:

If you actually pay attention this time, it should be.

Sizeable amount of half-truths. Listen here. You seem obsessed with that particular Katrina hurricane freak case.

The only thing freakish here is how freakishly perfectly stupid this comment is. I just gave you a lesson on the deep rich history BULLdogs have with BULLs, and explained how every fibre of their being is sculpted by the demands of bull-subjugation, and your response is "hey you seem obsessed with one isolated freakish case of dogs attacking a bull".

Is this a prank? You couldn't have had a stupider response if it was written by a comedy writer. The abandoned urban pet pitbulls seeing a 2500 lbs bull for the first time in their lives and then systematically breaking it down until it can no longer offer any resistance (and it was largely just one of the dogs that actually did this, when you read the original accounts, the female was just running about the bull's legs ineffectively), that wasn't the event in history that proved pitbulls can fight bulls, that is the "see, I told you so" reserved only for the exceedingly ignorant "late to the party" special (needs) individuals who apparently somehow missed the memo on what bulldogs are built to do.

They can't beat bulls "because that happened", that happened because their ancestors have been beating bulls since bulls were aurochs. You have it totally backwards.

And from that you extrapolate a single Pitbull would beat a Bison. Equivalent of this would be "Eurasian Lynx wrestled down a Wolf in a photo once, this means it's favoured over a Bear by extrapolation!",

It WOULD be like that... IF for the last many thousands of years every eurasian lynx had to wrestle down many wolves every week before it was afforded breeding rights.

If that was the case, only a moron would say a lynx can't wrestle down a wolf. By definition a lynx would be a wolf-wrestling machine. IF that was the case.

That isn't the case though. The lynx is a hare ambushing machine, because that is what it actually normally does with regularity in the same way bulldogs beat bulls. That's the valid analogy you were looking for. Lynx and their ability to tackle hares = bulldogs and their ability to beat bulls.

A lynx wrestling down a wolf is an anomalous weird freak incident. Like a pitbull stowing away on a rocket and flying to the moon. Tackling a bull is something every bulldog had to do in order to even qualify as one of their kind and survive to the age of 1 year old. Is tackling a wolf something EVERY lynx HAS to do in order to exist? No.

Keep in mind you claimed a single Pitbull would defeat 5 Wolves or 5 Cheetahs which is ludicrous.

You have a nasty habit of randomly throwing in bald faced lies. No one ever said a pitbull would beat 5 wolves.

But from the pictures the Bull looked very overweight and hornless. The difference between an overweight and hornless cattle Bull is much much larger than the difference between a "good for nothing blue-nosed petbull" and a "elite fighting hunting gamebred Pitbull".

Its just very healthy, and a large breed. Something a wild predator could not kill. Horns or not.

A 500kg fighting bull despite weighting much less than a cattle bull would win a fight against 2 of them in minutes. The images you posted don't look like Spanish fighting bulls at all, they come mostly in black and brown colours, but i have never seen a spotted Fighting Bull ever.

The pet EBT, a long retired show dog, subdued an actual fighting bull while it was participating in a bullfight. Again demonstrating its ancestral evolutionary heritage. Its not even close to a professional bull-dog, but it submitted a professional spanish fighting bull. It just has that capacity coursing through its veins. Many such individuals with that heritage would have understandably lost the knack if their ancestors were pet/show dogs over the last 150 years, but the fact some haven't demonstrates the heritage these dogs come from. Which we shouldn't really need videos to "prove", that requirement is PURELY for the ignorant and uneducated. So that is why these cases are being provided for you. They're not for me, I already know, they are meaningless. Apparently you didn't, somehow. So you get the photos and videos. Don't bother knit picking over them, they aren't even the point, the history is the point. I promise pet show dogs wouldn't be able to do that WITHOUT the history I'm talking about. It's not a coincidence, it's not about aggression or anything even like that, it is about the fact the bulldog is a tool sculpted by evolution whose function and application is to make bulls submit. That is why that is happening in these photos and videos.

The main strenght of Pitbulls is their agressivity and pain tolerance, both of these traits were artificially introduced by humans to make dogfights be longer and more exciting to watch. They focused on altering the nerve system so these fights could keep going without either retreating due to pain. Pitbulls are perhaps when it comes to agression and pain tolerance one of the most superb animals in the world. Their stamina is also very good but not out of the ordinary for fighting dogs.

Lol, ok yeah teach me about dogs. Cool.

Homever their weaponry is quite unremarkable. Very short canines compared to closely-related Wolves. My point was as follows, if entire Packs for Wolves, each of them having much better teeth and weaponry than a Pitbull (albeit less pain tolerance and less agressive) have trouble taking down adult Moose. Let alone a Bison. I simply don't comprehend how a single Pitbull is going to do anything serious to a Bull Moose on a reasonable amount of time, sure, unlike the wolves It could take more punishment and return to the fight but it's teeth aren't nearly as powerful as those of Wolves, who hunt in packs and attack mostly Moose calves and still take some time. And we are talking Moose, let alone Bison or Fighting Bull. 

What bulldogs are is exactly everything that is useful and necessary for subjugating bulls. Everything that is not useful for that purpose is stripped away. That's the only reason bulldogs and wolves are 2 different things. If the wolf was better designed for subjugating bulls than the bulldog, the bulldog would be a perfect replica of a wolf. The bulldog literally is a wolf, only specialised for bovine subjugation.
"Well if wolves can't do it... I can't comprehend how a pitbull can", the only answer to that is "well, aren't you stupid then?". There's no alternative way to sugarcoat it when someone is flagrantly incorrect in their patently false reasoning. The ignorance is immediately clear and unmistakable.

"I'd 'a thunk a refrigerator would cook my steak, and a grill woulda made 'er cold" is basically what you just said. What is someone supposed to say in response to that? It is difficult to be kind.

Their weaponry is exactly perfect for their role, why would you assume you know better than raw trial and error results? You're supposed to learn from the results, "So THAT is what is optimal for subduing a bull, ooooohhh" is how you are supposed to react. Not "wrong ackshully, sorry indubitable incontrovertible laws of the universe, the best thing would ackshully be pointier teeth, I thought about it a tiny bit with my ape brain so... there".

Wolves take a long time, target compromised vulnerable individuals in packs, and still fail most of the time, because they are designed to by mother nature. That's how good they need to be to breed.
Bulldogs succeed at subjugating prime healthy bulls because thaty is how good they need to be to breed. Every living thing on this earth is purely the sum of how good it needs to be in order to breed.
Unreasonable expectations set by dangerous hostile apes have caused domestic dogs to elevate in their specialised areas of expertise to a standard which is very very high and typically above a level that can be replicated by a wild animal.
The level of performance a guy who uses bulldogs will tolerate, plus what will survive doing that activity at that level, the result of that formula is what a bulldog is. I can assure you a wolf does not make it through that evolutionary seive.

You keep using wolves failing as your evidence, when its actually my evidence. That is why bulldogs exist. There are bulldogs BECAUSE of your examples where wolves could not achieve subjugation on a bovine. That won't do, that's not good enough, so bulldogs evolved.

You treat me as some kind of "cat fanatic" when i have speaked out repeteadly on Carnivora about Cervids being underrated. I saw a Jaguar Vs Alaskan Moose poll which was just ridiculous to me. And yes i did request a Coyote Vs Staffordshire bull terrier poll, but i do back the Staffordshire there. I have sided against felines in polls vs ursids/wolves/dogs any times.

I don't care if you are a cat fan or not, you are without any shadow of doubt someone who knows nothing about dogs and underestimates them extremely, which is pretty typical of animal enthusiasts. Domestic dogs are typically usually a blindspot for people who know a lot about animals, and then people in general are compelled to disregard and underestimate domestic dogs. You're clearly unmistakabley in lock step with this phenomenon. You're openly saying yourself that you can't comprehend that a bulldog is a bulldog. We don't really need to go further than that in order to completely disregard your assessment of bulldogs. That's called stumbling at the first hurdle.

[s]

Aug 26, 2023 20:01:30 GMT Hardcastle said:

Aug 26, 2023 13:41:23 GMT s said:

My final post here, probably:

If you actually pay attention this time, it should be.

Sizeable amount of half-truths. Listen here. You seem obsessed with that particular Katrina hurricane freak case.

The only thing freakish here is how freakishly perfectly stupid this comment is. I just gave you a lesson on the deep rich history BULLdogs have with BULLs, and explained how every fibre of their being is sculpted by the demands of bull-subjugation, and your response is "hey you seem obsessed with one isolated freakish case of dogs attacking a bull".

Is this a prank? You couldn't have had a stupider response if it was written by a comedy writer. The abandoned urban pet pitbulls seeing a 2500 lbs bull for the first time in their lives and then systematically breaking it down until it can no longer offer any resistance (and it was largely just one of the dogs that actually did this, when you read the original accounts, the female was just running about the bull's legs ineffectively), that wasn't the event in history that proved pitbulls can fight bulls, that is the "see, I told you so" reserved only for the exceedingly ignorant "late to the party" special (needs) individuals who apparently somehow missed the memo on what bulldogs are built to do.

They can't beat bulls "because that happened", that happened because their ancestors have been beating bulls since bulls were aurochs. You have it totally backwards.

And from that you extrapolate a single Pitbull would beat a Bison. Equivalent of this would be "Eurasian Lynx wrestled down a Wolf in a photo once, this means it's favoured over a Bear by extrapolation!",

It WOULD be like that... IF for the last many thousands of years every eurasian lynx had to wrestle down many wolves every week before it was afforded breeding rights.

If that was the case, only a moron would say a lynx can't wrestle down a wolf. By definition a lynx would be a wolf-wrestling machine. IF that was the case.

That isn't the case though. The lynx is a hare ambushing machine, because that is what it actually normally does with regularity in the same way bulldogs beat bulls. That's the valid analogy you were looking for. Lynx and their ability to tackle hares = bulldogs and their ability to beat bulls.

A lynx wrestling down a wolf is an anomalous weird freak incident. Like a pitbull stowing away on a rocket and flying to the moon. Tackling a bull is something every bulldog had to do in order to even qualify as one of their kind and survive to the age of 1 year old. Is tackling a wolf something EVERY lynx HAS to do in order to exist? No.

Keep in mind you claimed a single Pitbull would defeat 5 Wolves or 5 Cheetahs which is ludicrous.

You have a nasty habit of randomly throwing in bald faced lies. No one ever said a pitbull would beat 5 wolves.

But from the pictures the Bull looked very overweight and hornless. The difference between an overweight and hornless cattle Bull is much much larger than the difference between a "good for nothing blue-nosed petbull" and a "elite fighting hunting gamebred Pitbull".

Its just very healthy, and a large breed. Something a wild predator could not kill. Horns or not.

A 500kg fighting bull despite weighting much less than a cattle bull would win a fight against 2 of them in minutes. The images you posted don't look like Spanish fighting bulls at all, they come mostly in black and brown colours, but i have never seen a spotted Fighting Bull ever.

The pet EBT, a long retired show dog, subdued an actual fighting bull while it was participating in a bullfight. Again demonstrating its ancestral evolutionary heritage. Its not even close to a professional bull-dog, but it submitted a professional spanish fighting bull. It just has that capacity coursing through its veins. Many such individuals with that heritage would have understandably lost the knack if their ancestors were pet/show dogs over the last 150 years, but the fact some haven't demonstrates the heritage these dogs come from. Which we shouldn't really need videos to "prove", that requirement is PURELY for the ignorant and uneducated. So that is why these cases are being provided for you. They're not for me, I already know, they are meaningless. Apparently you didn't, somehow. So you get the photos and videos. Don't bother knit picking over them, they aren't even the point, the history is the point. I promise pet show dogs wouldn't be able to do that WITHOUT the history I'm talking about. It's not a coincidence, it's not about aggression or anything even like that, it is about the fact the bulldog is a tool sculpted by evolution whose function and application is to make bulls submit. That is why that is happening in these photos and videos.

The main strenght of Pitbulls is their agressivity and pain tolerance, both of these traits were artificially introduced by humans to make dogfights be longer and more exciting to watch. They focused on altering the nerve system so these fights could keep going without either retreating due to pain. Pitbulls are perhaps when it comes to agression and pain tolerance one of the most superb animals in the world. Their stamina is also very good but not out of the ordinary for fighting dogs.

Lol, ok yeah teach me about dogs. Cool.

Homever their weaponry is quite unremarkable. Very short canines compared to closely-related Wolves. My point was as follows, if entire Packs for Wolves, each of them having much better teeth and weaponry than a Pitbull (albeit less pain tolerance and less agressive) have trouble taking down adult Moose. Let alone a Bison. I simply don't comprehend how a single Pitbull is going to do anything serious to a Bull Moose on a reasonable amount of time, sure, unlike the wolves It could take more punishment and return to the fight but it's teeth aren't nearly as powerful as those of Wolves, who hunt in packs and attack mostly Moose calves and still take some time. And we are talking Moose, let alone Bison or Fighting Bull. 

What bulldogs are is exactly everything that is useful and necessary for subjugating bulls. Everything that is not useful for that purpose is stripped away. That's the only reason bulldogs and wolves are 2 different things. If the wolf was better designed for subjugating bulls than the bulldog, the bulldog would be a perfect replica of a wolf. The bulldog literally is a wolf, only specialised for bovine subjugation.
"Well if wolves can't do it... I can't comprehend how a pitbull can", the only answer to that is "well, aren't you stupid then?". There's no alternative way to sugarcoat it when someone is flagrantly incorrect in their patently false reasoning. The ignorance is immediately clear and unmistakable.

"I'd 'a thunk a refrigerator would cook my steak, and a grill woulda made 'er cold" is basically what you just said. What is someone supposed to say in response to that? It is difficult to be kind.

Their weaponry is exactly perfect for their role, why would you assume you know better than raw trial and error results? You're supposed to learn from the results, "So THAT is what is optimal for subduing a bull, ooooohhh" is how you are supposed to react. Not "wrong ackshully, sorry indubitable incontrovertible laws of the universe, the best thing would ackshully be pointier teeth, I thought about it a tiny bit with my ape brain so... there".

Wolves take a long time, target compromised vulnerable individuals in packs, and still fail most of the time, because they are designed to by mother nature. That's how good they need to be to breed.
Bulldogs succeed at subjugating prime healthy bulls because thaty is how good they need to be to breed. Every living thing on this earth is purely the sum of how good it needs to be in order to breed.
Unreasonable expectations set by dangerous hostile apes have caused domestic dogs to elevate in their specialised areas of expertise to a standard which is very very high and typically above a level that can be replicated by a wild animal.
The level of performance a guy who uses bulldogs will tolerate, plus what will survive doing that activity at that level, the result of that formula is what a bulldog is. I can assure you a wolf does not make it through that evolutionary seive.

You keep using wolves failing as your evidence, when its actually my evidence. That is why bulldogs exist. There are bulldogs BECAUSE of your examples where wolves could not achieve subjugation on a bovine. That won't do, that's not good enough, so bulldogs evolved.

You treat me as some kind of "cat fanatic" when i have speaked out repeteadly on Carnivora about Cervids being underrated. I saw a Jaguar Vs Alaskan Moose poll which was just ridiculous to me. And yes i did request a Coyote Vs Staffordshire bull terrier poll, but i do back the Staffordshire there. I have sided against felines in polls vs ursids/wolves/dogs any times.

I don't care if you are a cat fan or not, you are without any shadow of doubt someone who knows nothing about dogs and underestimates them extremely, which is pretty typical of animal enthusiasts. Domestic dogs are typically usually a blindspot for people who know a lot about animals, and then people in general are compelled to disregard and underestimate domestic dogs. You're clearly unmistakabley in lock step with this phenomenon. You're openly saying yourself that you can't comprehend that a bulldog is a bulldog. We don't really need to go further than that in order to completely disregard your assessment of bulldogs. That's called stumbling at the first hurdle.

Guess what? Give a physically fit human a Sword and he is now more efficient at fighting bulls than a dozen Pitbulls combined. Talk to me next time a Pitbull decapitates an adult Bull with a single bite or something.

[Hardcastle]

Thank you. Really didn't feel like continueing this horse and pony show with the likes of you.

[CoolJohnson]

I am seeing more deer support among the newer carnivora members.

[Bolushi]

Past 5 posts in this thread has been an exchange between retards -
carnivora.net/arabian-leopardess-v-african-wild-dog-t13882.html