Ranking Carnivora Forum members by intelligence

[s]

Aug 15, 2023 15:42:24 GMT Hardcastle said:

I had taken out the dogs and men to try and find a bear, and we were filing along through tolerably open jungle when we saw the elephant coming towards us over a rising knoll fifty yards away, throwing dust over its back. I instantly decided to have a try at it, so the dogs were slipped.

The elephant had seen us and was already making off. He had not gone two hundred yards, however, before Lady was up, and single-handed sprang at his cheek, and hung there ; in another moment Bill Sykes and Turk had him by the trunk ; he stumbled, when Bismarck seized the top of the ear furthest away from him, across the head, so that when the elephant rose and raced off, Bismarck was riding on his head, holding on to the ear on the off side, and having his hind-legs hanging down on the near. Such a scene now ensued as beggars description. The elephant roared lustily, and dragged Bill Sykes and Turk along, often on their backs, and apparently in imminent risk of being trampled to death. The jungle was full of dry bamboos, amongst which pursued and pursuers made a great crashing. All the smaller dogs, maddened by the excitement, were yelling and snapping at the elephant's hind-legs as if it had been a sheep, regardless of the kicks they received. It seemed certain that some dogs must be killed Bill Sykes and Turk had the most dangerous places but unless they were killed on the spot, none of the seizers were dogs that would let go.The encounter had been so unexpected that we had no ropes with us, but there were some with the pad-elephant nearly a mile behind. It took time to get these, and meanwhile the elephant rushed about, kicking and dragging the dogs through bamboos and in and out of ravines. It followed us when we got in front to head and delay it till the ropes came, but was too much hampered to catch any one.- When the ropes arrived, Bismarck, Lady, and Bill Sykes were still at their holds, but Turk was so thoroughly exhausted that he had been shaken off : though the flesh was weak, however, the spirit was willing, and he still tottered after the elephant, which had now subsided into a walk. Had the ropes not come when they did the seizers would have been wearied out, and the elephant might have escaped.

I had two Chittagong elephant-catchers with me, whom I had brought from Bengal, and as soon as the ropes arrived they caught the elephant's hind-legs in running nooses, and got a turn round a tree. When both legs were secured we got the dogs off, which was dangerous work, as they had to be caught hold off and half choked within reach of the elephant. They had to be carried from the spot and bathed in a stream near: there were no bones broken, but they were much bruised. However, what did that matter to dogs of their stamp ? Plenty of milk and good soft beds of straw soon put them all right.

Note these dogs are earlier described as weighing 30-40 lbs, so barely more than half the size of most pitbulls today, but still this case might give some idea of how pitbulls might deal with an elephant.  
This was a juvenile elephant and I'm not that serious, but generally speaking you are wrong with your speculations about what will happen to a gripping dog in these scenarios. By all means talk about their shortcomings with killing efficiency or whatever, but you are making the mistake of supposing they are "certainly dead" if they are put in these hazardous scenarios with bison or bulls or whatever, and that is false. That is their literal wheelhouse and they will be fine. 

I mean that was a human victory if anything, i can get a rattlesnake to distract an Elephant while im aiming the Elephant with an autocannon as well.

[s]

No such thing as "taming" a fighting Bull btw, before they enter the ring they haven't had any Contact with humans in their Life, and this is intentional to increase their agressivity.

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2023 19:40:34 GMT s said:

No such thing as "taming" a fighting Bull btw, before they enter the ring they haven't had any Contact with humans in their Life, and this is intentional to increase their agressivity.

Are you from carnivora? And if so, what is your username?

[s]

You can revisit the account of a Bull destroying a Lion, then being stung with a Lance by a Knight and then getting shot with a Ballista (Both of those things are much, much more powerful and damaging than a Pitbull bite), the Bull instead of having "the fight taken out of him", became even more infuriated and it became even harder to get close. Then they let loose a horde of Alanos to finish the wounded Bull. Rather than giving up it fought the Alanos to the end for an hour until it bled out.

[s]

Aug 15, 2023 19:42:42 GMT @ling said:

Aug 15, 2023 19:40:34 GMT s said:

No such thing as "taming" a fighting Bull btw, before they enter the ring they haven't had any Contact with humans in their Life, and this is intentional to increase their agressivity.

Are you from carnivora? And if so, what is your username?

Espinola_

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2023 19:45:23 GMT s said:

Aug 15, 2023 19:42:42 GMT @ling said:

Are you from carnivora? And if so, what is your username?

Espinola_

I recommend joining "Bestiary", it's kinda like carnivora 2.0. There's a number of members on it that came from carnivora and other forums. Just google "Bestiary Tapatalk" and it should pop up. It's still a new forum but it's growing fast.

[CoolJohnson]

Aug 14, 2023 16:53:33 GMT s said:

Some people are simply delusional, they live in fantasy land. No point debating with such retards, im simply wasting my time. Facts don't convince them, logging out forever.

s

Your posts are interesting to read.

You can just make guest appearances to spice up these threads.

[Bolushi]

Aug 14, 2023 14:04:47 GMT s said:

Jul 28, 2023 20:18:14 GMT Bolushi said:

Yeah lol, might as well say -
"I interviewed 20 teenage girls in new york and they all say an eagle would beat a gray wolf and therefore an eagle will beat a gray wolf in a fight."
That's basically what he did in the snow leopard vs presa thread.

forocoches.com/foro/showthread.php?t=8011705

From a Spanish forum, use Google translate if you don't understand Spanish. Presa Canarios are not "Pitbulls but bigger" they are similar to Rottweilers with a better bite force. Snow Leopards have insane agility and have killed Yaks. The power difference between both is nothing like "Bald Eagle Vs Wolf"

Didn't see this.

They are way more similar to pitbulls and what both have in common is a Rott can't beat them. A Rott has a little more in common with the blue heeler, it's basically a big blue heeler with more significant bulldog trajectory, but it's a plucky farm dog who herds cattle and perhaps gives some very persuasive nips and bites. Subjugating cattle is not quite their job, but it's something they can attempt to do from time to time and this is very persuading instead of fight-stopping.
A little SBT will beat any Rottweiler. A Presa will maul, dismember, and kill a Rottweiler. Might also lose to the SBT.
Espinola: "Fighting breeds like Rottweilers"
Also Rottweiler: loses to shitty sbt 1/5th its weight
my.mail.ru/bk/amarley.lei/video/_myvideo/23.html
Mind you I selected the absolute best video I could find for the Rott against a bulldog and this was the only one where the Rott didn't fold within the first 3 minutes or so and actually was willing to fight after some time. And still, it is more of a loss than a win, since at the very end the SBT grabbed the Rottweiler as they were separating which was too exhausted to do anything.
Also the Rott got put on its back multiple times. Mind you, against a dog 1/5th its size.
Talk about "fighting dog", the equivalent for fighting dogs is Gr Ch Mayday losing to a 22lb Jagdterrier.

Also SLs do not kill wild yaks, they kill domestic ones. If a Rott could not kill a domestic yak cow it should be shot in an ideal world.

[Hardcastle]

Aug 15, 2023 19:39:39 GMT s said:

Aug 15, 2023 15:42:24 GMT Hardcastle said:

Note these dogs are earlier described as weighing 30-40 lbs, so barely more than half the size of most pitbulls today, but still this case might give some idea of how pitbulls might deal with an elephant.  
This was a juvenile elephant and I'm not that serious, but generally speaking you are wrong with your speculations about what will happen to a gripping dog in these scenarios. By all means talk about their shortcomings with killing efficiency or whatever, but you are making the mistake of supposing they are "certainly dead" if they are put in these hazardous scenarios with bison or bulls or whatever, and that is false. That is their literal wheelhouse and they will be fine. 

I mean that was a human victory if anything, i can get a rattlesnake to distract an Elephant while im aiming the Elephant with an autocannon as well.

But there's no autocannon, the dogs made it safe for the people to handle the elephant and tie it up with ropes, live capturing it. Without the dogs subjugating the elephant and taking the fight out of it first, approaching people would be thrown and trampled. This is what bulldogs/boarhounds are for, being a buffer between fragile delicate humans and dangerous powerful unruly animals. They make these beasts mild so they can be handled, and they do it by draining their fight and resistance out of them.

If your argument was about the fact the dogs aren't killing these animals and lack killing ability, I'd be in some trouble because that is true, that's not really their thing (especially a pure bulldog, it becomes slightly more their thing with terrier or sighthound admixture). You are making the mistake of questioning their ability to just survive engaging with a bison or spanish bull or aurochs or whatever, you are asserting these big bovines would just kill them easily, and that's a huge mistake because there's no shortage of evidence that this is not true.










etc etc

Its why they exist. There's a big angry bull or aurochs over there, and the humans are shrugging and looking at eachother knowing if they approach they will be killed, and so the dogs are sent in, the bull tries to kill them, can't, gets drained and beaten up and has pain administered to it until it cries uncle and is made mild, and THEN the humans can come in and do whatever. Might be just kill it with a spear, in the early days, but also now you can rope them up or load them into trucks for transport or castrate them or do whatever. None of it is possible without the bulldog taking the fight out of the bull. ESPECIALLY for the rustic semi-wild bulls like the iberian fighting bulls and scrub bulls and etc. There are tame cattle now that can be gently persuaded, but this didn't used to be true and still isn't true for spanish fighting bulls, so you need bulldogs.

The word "mastiff" actually has nothing to do with "massive", it originally was derived from the latin word "mansuetus", meaning "to tame and make mild". And "Mastiffs" were originally actually bulldogs, the word has since been hijacked by all sorts of big silly dogs (like your spanish mastiff that you posted- really an LGD and quite worthless for combat). Other latin words like presa and fila have similar meaning; To seize and arrest and subdue etc etc. This lineage of dogs are made for subjugation. Like a fish is made to swim.

Bull baiting was a sport invented by the Earl of Warren some time before 1088 AD after he witnessed butcher's dogs (like Alanos) struggling with an ornery Bull, he found it very entertaining how the dogs were being tossed and coming back for more. So they invent bull baiting, and then over the decades and centuries they fine-tune it to be more entertaining, and one way they did that was in shrinking the bulldogs down from alano size (60-90 lbs) to about 20-30 lbs to make them more liable to be thrown further in the air.


And yes the bull was tethered so people could stand around watching it, otherwise the action would move crazily out into farmers crops and crash through market stalls and etc etc.

Bull baiting is but a small little diversion humans briefly dabbled in, this lineage of dog actually traces back to the embryonic murmurings of cattle and swine domestication. Hunting of wild Aurochs and wild boar with broad-mouthed holding dogs in northern Iran 10 000 odd years ago. These dogs are responsible for the domestication of cattle and pigs using their gripping into submission technique. The "alano" is still named after people who migrated from that region with those dogs into Spain and western Europe, the Alans. The alaunts were also so named for this reason. Alaunt de Boucheries means butcher's alaunt, or bulldog like the alano espanol, then they also made the boarhound varieties the alaunt gentil and the alaunt veutreres using this bulldog base and crossing it to hounds.

I give you all this to help you understand the magnitude of the history we are talking about, so you don't think they are called bulldogs on a petty superficial whim and then really are silly looking fighting dogs of no great merit. No the dog fighting and bull baiting are trivial little side distractions, this is a real animal evolved for thousands and thousands of years to be expertly adapted to subjugating bulls and boars to a higher level than what is expected of wild predators. That's the reality.

[Hardcastle]

Look at what this moron has to do to pretend he hasn't badly lost this argument-

I kid you not, this is what he said without exaggeration

"They are called pitBULLS and BULLdogs because even a single 20-30lbs staffordshire bull terrier would crush Spanish Fighting Bulls by jumping on their back or head on one try, biting hard and making them agonize and take the fight out of them, the Bull starts bleeding out and is completely dominated as he needs throws the dog up to the Air or hits him on the ground at least 40-50 times to make him cease the attack but the Dog effortlessly dodges his attack (because they are called BULLdogs, them being killed or seriously wounded by a Bull is like a fish drowning on water) gets up without feeling any pain or remorse every single time and continues the attack just as ferociously, no matter how many times he is ragged down on the floor, he feels no pain or repentment and is able to jump on the back or the head in the first try using his stamina every time until either the Bull dies without the dog suffering any significant injuries or the fight is completely taken out of the Fighting Bull and he is tamed and dominated, btw this is a little 20-30lbs BULLdog, a 50-90lbs one would eat a Bull for breakfast, a Bull has much more to fear from them than from Grizzlies or Lion, they switched the Pitbull-sized dogs in Bullfighting by Staffordshire-sized ones because the Pitbull-sized ones would destroy the Bull so quickly and easily Bullfighting stopped being fun"

link

So shameless, lol.

This practice is known as "straw man argumentation" or "straw man fallacy." This fallacy occurs when someone misrepresents their opponent's argument in a weaker or distorted form that is easier to attack or refute. By attacking this distorted version of the argument, the person avoids addressing the actual points their opponent made, allowing them to appear as if they have successfully refuted the original argument. It's a form of rhetorical manipulation and is considered intellectually dishonest in a reasoned debate or discussion.

Has there ever been a clearer case than what is above? Pathetic. Sore loser. Emphasis on loser.

[Hardcastle]

Big brains at carnivora... unbelievable.

[Bolushi]

Aug 16, 2023 4:22:25 GMT Hardcastle said:

Look at what this moron has to do to pretend he hasn't badly lost this argument-

I kid you not, this is what he said without exaggeration

"They are called pitBULLS and BULLdogs because even a single 20-30lbs staffordshire bull terrier would crush Spanish Fighting Bulls by jumping on their back or head on one try, biting hard and making them agonize and take the fight out of them, the Bull starts bleeding out and is completely dominated as he needs throws the dog up to the Air or hits him on the ground at least 40-50 times to make him cease the attack but the Dog effortlessly dodges his attack (because they are called BULLdogs, them being killed or seriously wounded by a Bull is like a fish drowning on water) gets up without feeling any pain or remorse every single time and continues the attack just as ferociously, no matter how many times he is ragged down on the floor, he feels no pain or repentment and is able to jump on the back or the head in the first try using his stamina every time until either the Bull dies without the dog suffering any significant injuries or the fight is completely taken out of the Fighting Bull and he is tamed and dominated, btw this is a little 20-30lbs BULLdog, a 50-90lbs one would eat a Bull for breakfast, a Bull has much more to fear from them than from Grizzlies or Lion, they switched the Pitbull-sized dogs in Bullfighting by Staffordshire-sized ones because the Pitbull-sized ones would destroy the Bull so quickly and easily Bullfighting stopped being fun"

link

So shameless, lol.

This practice is known as "straw man argumentation" or "straw man fallacy." This fallacy occurs when someone misrepresents their opponent's argument in a weaker or distorted form that is easier to attack or refute. By attacking this distorted version of the argument, the person avoids addressing the actual points their opponent made, allowing them to appear as if they have successfully refuted the original argument. It's a form of rhetorical manipulation and is considered intellectually dishonest in a reasoned debate or discussion.

Has there ever been a clearer case than what is above? Pathetic. Sore loser. Emphasis on loser.

Lol it gets worse

[lincoln]

Aug 14, 2023 20:32:47 GMT s said:

Aug 14, 2023 18:58:17 GMT Bolushi said:

Yeah, it would. Or could- the moose is really tall which is bad. A bison or any other bovine is an easier prospect, not because the moose is superior (it is inferior) but because the dog will have trouble reaching its head.
However, if perhaps a bull moose in rut decided to fend off even a 25lb SBT with its antlers, it's pretty doomed.
1 50lb APBT can subjugate:
Any bovine of any size to ever exist
Any suid of any size to ever exist

Might as well do a final reply since this is so unbelievably imbecilic.

Reality: Pitbull gets sent flying when he tries to approach, if the Bison is feeling merciful he lets him escape, if not he tramples and finishes him off

Even though I don’t consider myself biased or a specific fanboy of a certain animal, both videos you’ve shown kinda show that you probably don’t know what an APBT is. Also showing pet dogs doesn’t prove anything 

[Hardcastle]

Aug 16, 2023 9:08:09 GMT Bolushi said:

Aug 16, 2023 4:22:25 GMT Hardcastle said:

Look at what this moron has to do to pretend he hasn't badly lost this argument-



link

So shameless, lol.

Has there ever been a clearer case than what is above? Pathetic. Sore loser. Emphasis on loser.

Lol it gets worse

I saw that and PM'd AE about it. He said he wasn't referring to the comments about me but just the idea that apbts are overrated, doesn't really hold up considering what he pointed to and agreed with. Whatever.

[Hardcastle]

Oddly I can't seem to find that thread on Carnivora anymore. I think Taipan just has a hard zero tolerance for anything that even vaguely alludes to the existence of other boards. Unless I'm just missing it somehow?