Ranking Carnivora Forum members by intelligence

[s]

Lol, we are discussing Grey Wolves and how they aren't much taller than Pitbulls and you bring up height stats of the much bigger Northwestern Wolf. Northwestern Wolves are taller than Grey Wolves and much more than Dogos yes. But Males are 115lbs or more. Much more than your average Dogo. So there isn't a significant increase in "Robusticity" so acussing them of fragility is absurd. Like Pitbulls, the Dogo's ancestor, Cordoba Fighting Dog was bred for fighting other dogs, which is not "tackling big game", can a Dogo tackle say a 40kg Boar? (we are using a broad definition of Big Game) Yes, but it's not the primary role it was made for. Aside from freak cases and flukes most a Dogo can realistically defeat is a 40-50kg small Boar. Ending this debate Mr Delusional Earnfart.

[Hardcastle]

Aug 15, 2023 9:22:11 GMT s said:

The Bison could have easily pressed on and crushed the Pitbull if it didn't feel merciful.

No it couldn't, because a pitbull is precisely expertly sculpted over thousands of years to avoid that outcome while clashing with the most deadly bovines going back to the aurochs, which their ancestors tamed in west Asia in the first place to make cattle.
Why you assume they are naive foolish infants doing their profession, I don't understand. It's like saying a fish would surely drown if the current got a little strong. You're just ignorant and in need of education. Simple as that.

You haven't seen a Fighting Bull in your Life, it's impossible to "take the fight out of them", i putted accounts of them tanking Ballesta arrows and Knights' Lances and instead of getting scared, being infuriated even further and making it even harder to get closer. Their pain tolerance exceeds even that of Pitbull, if anyone is going to "have the fight taken out of him", it's the Pitbill

The fact there are bulldogs working with fighting bulls proves, beyond a shadow of doubt and as a matter of fact, that the fight can be taken out of them. Because that is ALL bulldogs are used for, that is their one and only application as a biological tool. Its like seeing carpenters returning from their days work with hammers and nails and a bunch of wood they hammered and nailed together behind them, and then confronting them like "nah that hammer won't do, that hammer and those nails couldn't even penetrate that wood back there". Oh Really? Then what the fuck were they just doing for the last millennia, genius? That's what they do. Turns out your baseless fantastical fanboy speculations were incorrect. What a shock. Actually they can take the fight out of spanish bulls and that task shaped their very evolution as a living organism, so... shut up. Save your breath.

there is a reason why in bullbaiting the Bull was tied up to a pole so he couldn't move and there were several dogs attacking him, to make it fair

Nope. That's not true. They sometimes (not always) tethered the bull to keep it in one place so the crowd didn't have to run around chasing the action, but more significantly bull baiting dogs were shrunk, down to 20 lbs. THAT was to make it fair. The bull catching dogs for the serious work, like the alano and similar, weighed 60-90 lbs,  they weren't interesting enough. A bull catching dog can... surprise surprise, catch a bull. Aka lug it and take the fight out of it and make it amenable and tame. It is what they are for. I don't know why you can't understand that. It's not a spectacle, it's just a job. To be a spectacle, they had to downsize the dogs to 20 lbs diminutive little dogs that could be tossed 30 feet into the stands, and still the dogs would typically trundle back down from the stands and ultimately prevail. 

This is not a specific grudge against dogs btw, if i got told a Lion would beat a Spanish Fighting Bull i would reply in a similar manner.

I gather that and I can see that you think there is this unbreakable immutable ranking of predators and if a lion struggles with a spanish bull then it automatically logically follows that 17 alanos must also struggle and fail. 2 is insane due to the fact the lion struggles and is so much bigger and better than an alano. No. It doesn't work that way. 1 individual 85 lbs alano, with experience, who isn't a cull, is better at dealing with a spanish bull than a lion.  Such an alano is ALSO better at dealing with a spanish bull than 15 bad alanos. All 15 bad alanos could conceivably be killed by 1 spanish bull, that would not clash with my stance at all. But 1 can also do it. And has done it, hundreds of thousands of times. 

Why stop there? Pitbulls are invincible after all, what about Pitbull Vs Rhino? Pitbull Vs Elephant? It's obvious who would win, the pit would get under the elephant, grab onto its belly, and then tear its guts out

No it would go like this-

I had taken out the dogs and men to try and find a bear, and we were filing along through tolerably open jungle when we saw the elephant coming towards us over a rising knoll fifty yards away, throwing dust over its back. I instantly decided to have a try at it, so the dogs were slipped.

The elephant had seen us and was already making off. He had not gone two hundred yards, however, before Lady was up, and single-handed sprang at his cheek, and hung there ; in another moment Bill Sykes and Turk had him by the trunk ; he stumbled, when Bismarck seized the top of the ear furthest away from him, across the head, so that when the elephant rose and raced off, Bismarck was riding on his head, holding on to the ear on the off side, and having his hind-legs hanging down on the near. Such a scene now ensued as beggars description. The elephant roared lustily, and dragged Bill Sykes and Turk along, often on their backs, and apparently in imminent risk of being trampled to death. The jungle was full of dry bamboos, amongst which pursued and pursuers made a great crashing. All the smaller dogs, maddened by the excitement, were yelling and snapping at the elephant's hind-legs as if it had been a sheep, regardless of the kicks they received. It seemed certain that some dogs must be killed Bill Sykes and Turk had the most dangerous places but unless they were killed on the spot, none of the seizers were dogs that would let go.The encounter had been so unexpected that we had no ropes with us, but there were some with the pad-elephant nearly a mile behind. It took time to get these, and meanwhile the elephant rushed about, kicking and dragging the dogs through bamboos and in and out of ravines. It followed us when we got in front to head and delay it till the ropes came, but was too much hampered to catch any one.- When the ropes arrived, Bismarck, Lady, and Bill Sykes were still at their holds, but Turk was so thoroughly exhausted that he had been shaken off : though the flesh was weak, however, the spirit was willing, and he still tottered after the elephant, which had now subsided into a walk. Had the ropes not come when they did the seizers would have been wearied out, and the elephant might have escaped.

I had two Chittagong elephant-catchers with me, whom I had brought from Bengal, and as soon as the ropes arrived they caught the elephant's hind-legs in running nooses, and got a turn round a tree. When both legs were secured we got the dogs off, which was dangerous work, as they had to be caught hold off and half choked within reach of the elephant. They had to be carried from the spot and bathed in a stream near: there were no bones broken, but they were much bruised. However, what did that matter to dogs of their stamp ? Plenty of milk and good soft beds of straw soon put them all right.

Note these dogs are earlier described as weighing 30-40 lbs, so barely more than half the size of most pitbulls today, but still this case might give some idea of how pitbulls might deal with an elephant.  
This was a juvenile elephant and I'm not that serious, but generally speaking you are wrong with your speculations about what will happen to a gripping dog in these scenarios. By all means talk about their shortcomings with killing efficiency or whatever, but you are making the mistake of supposing they are "certainly dead" if they are put in these hazardous scenarios with bison or bulls or whatever, and that is false. That is their literal wheelhouse and they will be fine. 

[s]

"Could a Puma kill a Horse/Bison?"

Dale/Bolushi: PFFFFFF it would get ragdolled, stomped and destroyed.

"Could a Pitbull kill a Horse/Bison?"

Dale/Bolushi: A 10 month old puppy would!

Absolute joke. While it would be a large fluke the Puma could at least get to the Bison's/Horse's back in one go, unlike the Pitbull. And has large fangs and claws that can actually seriously injure the Bison/Horse in a reasonable amount of time. You heavily underestimate how Tanky Bisons are. They can tank off dozens of bites of a Wolf pack, and Wolves have far more formidable and developed jaws than Pitbulls.

[Hardcastle]

Aug 15, 2023 15:03:22 GMT s said:

Lol, we are discussing Grey Wolves and how they aren't much taller than Pitbulls and you bring up height stats of the much bigger Northwestern Wolf. Northwestern Wolves are taller than Grey Wolves and much more than Dogos yes. But Males are 115lbs or more. Much more than your average Dogo. So there isn't a significant increase in "Robusticity" so acussing them of fragility is absurd. Like Pitbulls, the Dogo's ancestor, Cordoba Fighting Dog was bred for fighting other dogs, which is not "tackling big game", can a Dogo tackle say a 40kg Boar? (we are using a broad definition of Big Game) Yes, but it's not the primary role it was made for. Aside from freak cases and flukes most a Dogo can realistically defeat is a 40-50kg small Boar. Ending this debate Mr Delusional Earnfart.

Lol keep promising to end the debate, its probably a good idea for you. But something tells me you can't do it. Which is fun.

Northwestern wolves ARE grey wolves. Northwestern wolves are the largest SUB-species of grey wolf, the second largest is the Eurasian wolf. I am giving you their stats. I am doing that to keep the wolf in the conversation at all, because if we talk about 75 cm 75 lbs wolves we need to stop talking about dogos and pitbulls and start talking about schnauzers or something, something these diminutive little wolf sub-species can think about maybe fighting. To be taking on serious dogs we need the serious wolves that weigh over 100 lbs, and that is the pacific NW wolf and the Eurasian wolf, maybe the Arctic Wolf in 3rd place. Even these huge wolves are mammothed in robusticity by dogos and pitbulls.
I gave you the weight stats for the NW wolf and no they are not heavier than dogos on average, they are typically similar in weight, just 33% taller.

I almost can't bring myself to address your idiotic cordoba fighting dog point, scratch that- I can't... do yourself a favour and don't even dream of teaching me anything about dogs.

[Hardcastle]

Aug 15, 2023 15:48:08 GMT s said:

"Could a Puma kill a Horse/Bison?"

Dale/Bolushi: PFFFFFF it would get ragdolled, stomped and destroyed.

"Could a Pitbull kill a Horse/Bison?"

Dale/Bolushi: A 10 month old puppy would!

Absolute joke. While it would be a fluke the Puma could at least get to the Bison's/Horse's back in one jump, unlike the Pitbull. And has large fangs and claws that can actually seriously injure the Bison/Horse in a reasonable amount of time.

Bulldogs are designed for bulls, cougars are designed for mule deer. This isn't rocket science. Stop using your "logic", it is consistently failing and humiliating you.

[s]

Aug 15, 2023 15:50:48 GMT Hardcastle said:

Aug 15, 2023 15:03:22 GMT s said:

Lol, we are discussing Grey Wolves and how they aren't much taller than Pitbulls and you bring up height stats of the much bigger Northwestern Wolf. Northwestern Wolves are taller than Grey Wolves and much more than Dogos yes. But Males are 115lbs or more. Much more than your average Dogo. So there isn't a significant increase in "Robusticity" so acussing them of fragility is absurd. Like Pitbulls, the Dogo's ancestor, Cordoba Fighting Dog was bred for fighting other dogs, which is not "tackling big game", can a Dogo tackle say a 40kg Boar? (we are using a broad definition of Big Game) Yes, but it's not the primary role it was made for. Aside from freak cases and flukes most a Dogo can realistically defeat is a 40-50kg small Boar. Ending this debate Mr Delusional Earnfart.

Lol keep promising to end the debate, its probably a good idea for you. But something tells me you can't do it. Which is fun.

Northwestern wolves ARE grey wolves. Northwestern wolves are the largest SUB-species of grey wolf, the second largest is the Eurasian wolf. I am giving you their stats. I am doing that to keep the wolf in the conversation at all, because if we talk about 75 cm 75 lbs wolves we need to stop talking about dogos and pitbulls and start talking about schnauzers or something, something these diminutive little wolf sub-species can think about maybe fighting. To be taking on serious dogs we need the serious wolves that weigh over 100 lbs, and that is the pacific NW wolf and the Eurasian wolf, maybe the Arctic Wolf in 3rd place. Even these huge wolves are mammothed in robusticity by dogos and pitbulls.
I gave you the weight stats for the NW wolf and no they are not heavier than dogos on average, they are typically similar in weight, just 33% taller.

I almost can't bring myself to address your idiotic cordoba fighting dog point, scratch that- I can't... do yourself a favour and don't even dream of teaching me anything about dogs.

"The Cordovan fighting dog originated in Córdoba in the 20th century. He was known for his desire to fight to the death, as well as his high tolerance for pain. The breed was so aggressive towards other dogs that males and females preferred to fight each other rather than mate, with the male generally being more aggressive, which is why his violent attitude and force towards the female sparked fights. where she was dead. Hard to control his temper, mating was difficult."

"The Cordovan fighting dog was capable of hunting in small packs of both males and females, otherwise they would turn on their hunting partners."

So yeah, CFD was mostly made for fighting other dogs. Albeit it had some multirole capacities as well for hunting.

And very idiotic to take NW Wolf as an example for all Grey Wolves, it's like taking Hulk the 150lbs Pitbull as an example for all Pitbulls.

[s]

Aug 15, 2023 15:51:53 GMT Hardcastle said:

Aug 15, 2023 15:48:08 GMT s said:

"Could a Puma kill a Horse/Bison?"

Dale/Bolushi: PFFFFFF it would get ragdolled, stomped and destroyed.

"Could a Pitbull kill a Horse/Bison?"

Dale/Bolushi: A 10 month old puppy would!

Absolute joke. While it would be a fluke the Puma could at least get to the Bison's/Horse's back in one jump, unlike the Pitbull. And has large fangs and claws that can actually seriously injure the Bison/Horse in a reasonable amount of time.

Bulldogs are designed for bulls, cougars are designed for mule deer. This isn't rocket science. Stop using your "logic", it is consistently failing and humiliating you.

Pitbulls were made to fight other dogs. Which is not "tackling big game". Simple as. As i previously stated the named "Bulldog" came from fights where a tied Bull was against several Bulldogs to make it fair, sometimes the Bull won other times it was the Bulldogs 

[s]

Canines have much better stamina than Felines but Felines have much better reflexes. Simple as. A Puma would have an easier time dodging a stomp. Even though it would still lose 99/100 times to the Bison 1v1. At least it could Dodge it's counter-attacks better, and unlike Pitbulls who aren't that Athletic they could reach the back of the Bison in one go

[Hardcastle]

Ugh...


ugggghhhhhh....


The cordoban fighting dog, you... imbecile, is the name for a lineage of bulldog in argentina they used for fighting. It is still fundamentally a bulldog. In fact it is realistically just an alano, but they were using them for dog fighting briefly. They didn't materialise out of thin air. "fighting dog" isn't a genuine animal. People use bulldogs or bull terriers or livestock guardians or etc etc as fighting dogs. It doesn't make them into something else. Bulldogs have always been the preferred foundation for fighting dogs because they are proportionately very very powerful and will over-power and outgrapple other types of dog. The cordoba fighting dog was just another bulldog. You can dissect the breeds that went into the dogo argentino for hours but I can save you time by explaining it is just a bulldog crossed with primarily sighthound and some other splashes of gun dog and etc. "Breed names" aren't worth getting hung up on when you really understand dog fundamentals.

[s]

If Pitbulls were actually half as powerful as you claim they would have already been banned universally except for Military purposes and would serve the role in combat that Knights on foot did in the middle ages

[s]

Is it that hard to accept it? Just because "Bulldog" is their name doesn't mean they were primarily used in dogfighting. Much much more than in Bullfighting.

[s]

Facts don't convince you. You live in Delusionland. No point in wasting time in debating you, do a favour and ban me

[Hardcastle]

Aug 15, 2023 15:57:49 GMT s said:

Canines have much better stamina than Felines but Felines have much better reflexes. Simple as. A Puma would have an easier time dodging a stomp. Even though it would still lose 99/100 times to the Bison 1v1. At least it could Dodge it's counter-attacks better, and unlike Pitbulls who aren't that Athletic they could reach the back of the Bison in one go

False. Felines have better reflexes with their paws and they also are good at springing away and fleeing, when it comes to lateral movement and staying in the fight canines in general are superior to felines. The stamina is but a clue to support this reality, because a feline doesn't need stamina because it doesn't stay in a back and forth struggle with prey. It orchestrates an ambush assassination from the shadows, it launches that assassination with great velocity and precision and skill, and felines are absolutely easily the best killers and best assassins in the animal kingdom. However, if the assassination fails, which it is prone to do, they have no backup plan other than evacuation. Fleeing. They have no stamina because this is their modus operandi. They are great killers specifically to avoid a back and forth drawn out test of attrition, which they are ill equipped to participate in. Not just due to stamina but also due to mental composure and lateral footwork and jaw specialisation and aversion to injury and etc etc. For a feline to beat a bull, for example, it needs to emphatically dominate, subdue and kill it outright in seconds. Naturally the bull is well equipped to prevent this outcome from happening most of the time, and it only needs to fend off the feline once or maybe twice, all under a couple of minutes.
With a bulldog the bull has to fend off the bulldog and beat it up 40 or 50 times, and try to make sure it is dead before the bull itself gets exhausted, which is easier said than done, and that is why bulldogs are so much more of a problem than any cat, let alone a puma, include tigers and lions in that as well.

[Hardcastle]

Aug 15, 2023 16:05:38 GMT s said:

Facts don't convince you. You live in Delusionland. No point in wasting time in debating you, do a favour and ban me

Why would I? lol. You're nothing.

[s]

Aug 15, 2023 16:08:39 GMT Hardcastle said:

Aug 15, 2023 16:05:38 GMT s said:

Facts don't convince you. You live in Delusionland. No point in wasting time in debating you, do a favour and ban me

Why would I? lol. You're nothing.

You are such a joke, i don't even think a Pitbull is able to jump on the back of a Bull, let alone an Auroch, on one go. It's also very laughable of you to claim that it's absolutely impossible to "take the fight out" of "Gamebred Pitbulls", even if you start shooting Caliber 50s to it or something.