WTF

[Deleted]

Jan 4, 2023 17:26:11 GMT Bolushi said:

Jan 4, 2023 17:16:58 GMT @hammerhead said:

Honestly this is an acceptable argument imo. Where did you guys learn all your dog knowledge from? Books, videos, other sources? I mean surely you didn’t know all your dog information at birth.

Hardcastle Bolushi

Hardcastle taught me who went on to teach Lincoln who has yet to find a seedling to water.
I originally learned from reading CF posts and before that just watched youtube. Not very high quality education.
I've learned some stuff independently and already knew some things since. Mostly Hardcastle though.

He could always teach me, but I prefer first hand sources 😉

[Deleted]

Jan 4, 2023 19:51:36 GMT @hammerhead said:

Jan 4, 2023 17:26:11 GMT Bolushi said:

Hardcastle taught me who went on to teach Lincoln who has yet to find a seedling to water.
I originally learned from reading CF posts and before that just watched youtube. Not very high quality education.
I've learned some stuff independently and already knew some things since. Mostly Hardcastle though.

He could always teach me, but I prefer first hand sources 😉

Well he works at an animal shelter if that's worth anything. Lol.

[Hardcastle]

Jan 4, 2023 16:54:04 GMT @hammerhead said:

Jan 4, 2023 2:21:59 GMT @hammerhead said:

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^Idiot, the cougar wouldn’t be safe to approach to kill w/o being restrained first.

Hardcastle Bolushi

Do gripping dogs have blunt teeth? Or do cougars have thick fur/skin? Or both? That could be the reason why there are no visible injuries.

Both. All dogs have slightly blunt teeth compared to wolves (with maybe a few almost-exceptions), gripping dogs especially.
Even dingoes have fairly blunt teeth, I remember an article on carnivora about how dingoes fight and kill eachother a lot but interestingly many of the injuries would be found under unbroken skin. Crushing deep tissue damage rather than slices and cuts.
For gripping dogs you almost want blunt teeth, because imagine a gripping dog is clamped onto a beast, the beast violently twists and a lot of g-force is applied to the dog's body pulling it away from the beast. Sharp teeth are liable to slice through the skin of the animal, dislodging the dog with a mouthful of skin and sending it flying. The prey has a cool wound maybe, but it's also free and running away (or maybe even attacking and killing the human hunter). The principal is the same as if you were trying to grab a stick of butter using only the blade of a knife, a sharp knife would just slice itself straight out and you'd drop the butter over and over again. A more blunt knife will be lodged stuck in the butter and you can pick it up and wave it around without the blade coming out.
Shorter blunter teeth can have a gripping dog more firmly attached and more impossible to dislodge. There's also the issue that longer bladed teeth are more prone to being knocked out by the impact of heavy collissions, which gripping dogs need to frequently endure.

For gripping dogs acquiring and maintaining the hold, no matter what, is everything. As long as you have that you are in control and draining the fight out of your target. Later on when it's basically got no fight left in it, then you can work your hold, edge it towards a throat hold for suffocation or grind away on your hold causing deep tissue damage and internal bleeding, or violently shake your whole body while maintaining the hold to do similar damage.

The mentality and function and mechanics of gripping dog combat philosophy was most beautifully illustrated in the writings of Jack London when he wrote about the fight between White Fang and a bulldog in the chapter "The Clinging Death".

Beauty Smith slipped the chain from his neck and stepped back.

For once White Fang did not make an immediate attack. He stood still, ears pricked forward, alert and curious, surveying the strange animal that faced him. He had never seen such a dog before. Tim Keenan shoved the bull-dog forward with a muttered “Go to it.” The animal waddled toward the centre of the circle, short and squat and ungainly. He came to a stop and blinked across at White Fang.

There were cries from the crowd of, “Go to him, Cherokee! Sick ’m, Cherokee! Eat ’m up!”

But Cherokee did not seem anxious to fight. He turned his head and blinked at the men who shouted, at the same time wagging his stump of a tail good-naturedly. He was not afraid, but merely lazy. Besides, it did not seem to him that it was intended he should fight with the dog he saw before him. He was not used to fighting with that kind of dog, and he was waiting for them to bring on the real dog.

Tim Keenan stepped in and bent over Cherokee, fondling him on both sides of the shoulders with hands that rubbed against the grain of the hair and that made slight, pushing-forward movements. These were so many suggestions. Also, their effect was irritating, for Cherokee began to growl, very softly, deep down in his throat. There was a correspondence in rhythm between the growls and the movements of the man’s hands. The growl rose in the throat with the culmination of each forward-pushing movement, and ebbed down to start up afresh with the beginning of the next movement. The end of each movement was the accent of the rhythm, the movement ending abruptly and the growling rising with a jerk.

This was not without its effect on White Fang. The hair began to rise on his neck and across the shoulders. Tim Keenan gave a final shove forward and stepped back again. As the impetus that carried Cherokee forward died down, he continued to go forward of his own volition, in a swift, bow-legged run. Then White Fang struck. A cry of startled admiration went up. He had covered the distance and gone in more like a cat than a dog; and with the same cat-like swiftness he had slashed with his fangs and leaped clear.

The bull-dog was bleeding back of one ear from a rip in his thick neck. He gave no sign, did not even snarl, but turned and followed after White Fang. The display on both sides, the quickness of the one and the steadiness of the other, had excited the partisan spirit of the crowd, and the men were making new bets and increasing original bets. Again, and yet again, White Fang sprang in, slashed, and got away untouched, and still his strange foe followed after him, without too great haste, not slowly, but deliberately and determinedly, in a businesslike sort of way. There was purpose in his method—something for him to do that he was intent upon doing and from which nothing could distract him.

His whole demeanour, every action, was stamped with this purpose. It puzzled White Fang. Never had he seen such a dog. It had no hair protection. It was soft, and bled easily. There was no thick mat of fur to baffle White Fang’s teeth as they were often baffled by dogs of his own breed. Each time that his teeth struck they sank easily into the yielding flesh, while the animal did not seem able to defend itself. Another disconcerting thing was that it made no outcry, such as he had been accustomed to with the other dogs he had fought. Beyond a growl or a grunt, the dog took its punishment silently. And never did it flag in its pursuit of him.

Not that Cherokee was slow. He could turn and whirl swiftly enough, but White Fang was never there. Cherokee was puzzled, too. He had never fought before with a dog with which he could not close. The desire to close had always been mutual. But here was a dog that kept at a distance, dancing and dodging here and there and all about. And when it did get its teeth into him, it did not hold on but let go instantly and darted away again.

But White Fang could not get at the soft underside of the throat. The bull-dog stood too short, while its massive jaws were an added protection. White Fang darted in and out unscathed, while Cherokee’s wounds increased. Both sides of his neck and head were ripped and slashed. He bled freely, but showed no signs of being disconcerted. He continued his plodding pursuit, though once, for the moment baffled, he came to a full stop and blinked at the men who looked on, at the same time wagging his stump of a tail as an expression of his willingness to fight.

In that moment White Fang was in upon him and out, in passing ripping his trimmed remnant of an ear. With a slight manifestation of anger, Cherokee took up the pursuit again, running on the inside of the circle White Fang was making, and striving to fasten his deadly grip on White Fang’s throat. The bull-dog missed by a hair’s-breadth, and cries of praise went up as White Fang doubled suddenly out of danger in the opposite direction.

The time went by. White Fang still danced on, dodging and doubling, leaping in and out, and ever inflicting damage. And still the bull-dog, with grim certitude, toiled after him. Sooner or later he would accomplish his purpose, get the grip that would win the battle. In the meantime, he accepted all the punishment the other could deal him. His tufts of ears had become tassels, his neck and shoulders were slashed in a score of places, and his very lips were cut and bleeding—all from these lightning snaps that were beyond his foreseeing and guarding.

Time and again White Fang had attempted to knock Cherokee off his feet; but the difference in their height was too great. Cherokee was too squat, too close to the ground. White Fang tried the trick once too often. The chance came in one of his quick doublings and counter-circlings. He caught Cherokee with head turned away as he whirled more slowly. His shoulder was exposed. White Fang drove in upon it: but his own shoulder was high above, while he struck with such force that his momentum carried him on across over the other’s body. For the first time in his fighting history, men saw White Fang lose his footing. His body turned a half-somersault in the air, and he would have landed on his back had he not twisted, catlike, still in the air, in the effort to bring his feet to the earth. As it was, he struck heavily on his side. The next instant he was on his feet, but in that instant Cherokee’s teeth closed on his throat.

It was not a good grip, being too low down toward the chest; but Cherokee held on. White Fang sprang to his feet and tore wildly around, trying to shake off the bull-dog’s body. It made him frantic, this clinging, dragging weight. It bound his movements, restricted his freedom. It was like the trap, and all his instinct resented it and revolted against it. It was a mad revolt. For several minutes he was to all intents insane. The basic life that was in him took charge of him. The will to exist of his body surged over him. He was dominated by this mere flesh-love of life. All intelligence was gone. It was as though he had no brain. His reason was unseated by the blind yearning of the flesh to exist and move, at all hazards to move, to continue to move, for movement was the expression of its existence.

Round and round he went, whirling and turning and reversing, trying to shake off the fifty-pound weight that dragged at his throat. The bull-dog did little but keep his grip. Sometimes, and rarely, he managed to get his feet to the earth and for a moment to brace himself against White Fang. But the next moment his footing would be lost and he would be dragging around in the whirl of one of White Fang’s mad gyrations. Cherokee identified himself with his instinct. He knew that he was doing the right thing by holding on, and there came to him certain blissful thrills of satisfaction. At such moments he even closed his eyes and allowed his body to be hurled hither and thither, willy-nilly, careless of any hurt that might thereby come to it. That did not count. The grip was the thing, and the grip he kept.

White Fang ceased only when he had tired himself out. He could do nothing, and he could not understand. Never, in all his fighting, had this thing happened. The dogs he had fought with did not fight that way. With them it was snap and slash and get away, snap and slash and get away. He lay partly on his side, panting for breath. Cherokee still holding his grip, urged against him, trying to get him over entirely on his side. White Fang resisted, and he could feel the jaws shifting their grip, slightly relaxing and coming together again in a chewing movement. Each shift brought the grip closer to his throat. The bull-dog’s method was to hold what he had, and when opportunity favoured to work in for more. Opportunity favoured when White Fang remained quiet. When White Fang struggled, Cherokee was content merely to hold on.

The bulging back of Cherokee’s neck was the only portion of his body that White Fang’s teeth could reach. He got hold toward the base where the neck comes out from the shoulders; but he did not know the chewing method of fighting, nor were his jaws adapted to it. He spasmodically ripped and tore with his fangs for a space. Then a change in their position diverted him. The bull-dog had managed to roll him over on his back, and still hanging on to his throat, was on top of him. Like a cat, White Fang bowed his hind-quarters in, and, with the feet digging into his enemy’s abdomen above him, he began to claw with long tearing-strokes. Cherokee might well have been disembowelled had he not quickly pivoted on his grip and got his body off of White Fang’s and at right angles to it.

There was no escaping that grip. It was like Fate itself, and as inexorable. Slowly it shifted up along the jugular. All that saved White Fang from death was the loose skin of his neck and the thick fur that covered it. This served to form a large roll in Cherokee’s mouth, the fur of which well-nigh defied his teeth. But bit by bit, whenever the chance offered, he was getting more of the loose skin and fur in his mouth. The result was that he was slowly throttling White Fang. The latter’s breath was drawn with greater and greater difficulty as the moments went by.

It began to look as though the battle were over. The backers of Cherokee waxed jubilant and offered ridiculous odds. White Fang’s backers were correspondingly depressed, and refused bets of ten to one and twenty to one, though one man was rash enough to close a wager of fifty to one. This man was Beauty Smith. He took a step into the ring and pointed his finger at White Fang. Then he began to laugh derisively and scornfully. This produced the desired effect. White Fang went wild with rage. He called up his reserves of strength, and gained his feet. As he struggled around the ring, the fifty pounds of his foe ever dragging on his throat, his anger passed on into panic. The basic life of him dominated him again, and his intelligence fled before the will of his flesh to live. Round and round and back again, stumbling and falling and rising, even uprearing at times on his hind-legs and lifting his foe clear of the earth, he struggled vainly to shake off the clinging death.

At last he fell, toppling backward, exhausted; and the bull-dog promptly shifted his grip, getting in closer, mangling more and more of the fur-folded flesh, throttling White Fang more severely than ever. Shouts of applause went up for the victor, and there were many cries of “Cherokee!” “Cherokee!” To this Cherokee responded by vigorous wagging of the stump of his tail. But the clamour of approval did not distract him. There was no sympathetic relation between his tail and his massive jaws. The one might wag, but the others held their terrible grip on White Fang’s throat.

White Fang By Jack London, Part 4, chapter 4 "The clinging death"

If you can fight off your ADD to read anything (and we all have a little ADD), read the above. Every line. Then you will understand how a gripping dog works, physically and instinctively.

[Hardcastle]

Jan 4, 2023 17:16:58 GMT @hammerhead said:

@hammerhead - your long winded copied posts ressemble the moronic, ignorant and dribbly style of a fool I loved making look so stupid in the past.

As they are baseless, full of errors and provide nothing intelligent, they won't be approved. You used to be a poster with promise, now you are poor imitation of a well known forum loser.

Honestly this is an acceptable argument imo. Where did you guys learn all your dog knowledge from? Books, videos, other sources? I mean surely you didn’t know all your dog information at birth.

Hardcastle Bolushi

As I explained in the "recommended literature" thread-
link

I learned all about wild animals and how to think about natural history from the books (and documentary series', but mostly the books) of David Attenborough (who himself learned from Charles Darwin). I then started reading about dogs, noticed it was all messy fairy tale bullshit, and then applied the "Attenborough lens" to dogs and dog history. It's been a long process, one I started at 12 and one I'm still working on at 39. I don't "learn about dogs" from any dog authority, because they truly are all ignorant, misguided and stupid. I get vague clues from dog sources, but the crucial part is running it through the Attenborough analysis. Dogs have been excluded from the world of serious consideration as animals, and I am working on fixing that. To a lesser extent humans interest me in the same way. There's been a LITTLE more work in understanding humans as animals, but it is still bogged down and muddied by political correctness. These animals which have been thought of as "non-animals", but really are inescapably animals, are long overdue for assessment as animals, and that's what I've been doing for 25+ years. Off and on for the first 10, but with a solid focus for the last 15.

[Hardcastle]

I also grew up in a dog breeding/hunting family. Should have mentioned that. That still is secondary to "the attenborough lens" though. I feed the information from that upbringing and my hands on experiences with dogs though the attenborough lens, like everything else. I look at everything through that lens and that is where my understanding comes from.

Go forth and read Attenborough books, or at the very least watch his documentaries- specifically the ones he wrote in the 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s.

These-
Life on Earth (1979)
The Living Planet (1984)
The Trials of Life (1990)
The Private Life of Plants (1994)
The Life of Birds (1998)
The Life of Mammals (2002)
Life in the Undergrowth (2005)
Life in Cold Blood (2007)

Those are essential. I now want to dig into the older-still stuff (some of which was focussed on humans), they may be essential too, I don't know.

You can skip all the rest of his documentaries. Many of the newer ones he is just a puppet for some political agenda. Even the massively popular and famous "the Blue planet" isn't really Attenborough, he's just narrating it and I don't think it really "teaches" anything substantial. Those I listed help you really understand things in a way where you are then equipped to find out about an animal and that same afternoon understand it better than the people who are obsessed with it and study it in depth. It's just a way of looking at things.

[Johnson]

Jan 4, 2023 23:20:47 GMT Hardcastle said:

I also grew up in a dog breeding/hunting family. Should have mentioned that. That still is secondary to "the attenborough lens" though. I feed the information from that upbringing and my hands on experiences with dogs though the attenborough lens, like everything else. I look at everything through that lens and that is where my understanding comes from.

Go forth and read Attenborough books, or at the very least watch his documentaries- specifically the ones he wrote in the 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s.

These-
Life on Earth (1979)
The Living Planet (1984)
The Trials of Life (1990)
The Private Life of Plants (1994)
The Life of Birds (1998)
The Life of Mammals (2002)
Life in the Undergrowth (2005)
Life in Cold Blood (2007)

Those are essential. I now want to dig into the older-still stuff (some of which was focussed on humans), they may be essential too, I don't know.

You can skip all the rest of his documentaries. Many of the newer ones he is just a puppet for some political agenda. Even the massively popular and famous "the Blue planet" isn't really Attenborough, he's just narrating it and I don't think it really "teaches" anything substantial. Those I listed help you really understand things in a way where you are then equipped to find out about an animal and that same afternoon understand it better than the people who are obsessed with it and study it in depth. It's just a way of looking at things.

David Attenborough was skeptical about climate change till as late as 2004.

www.carbonbrief.org/the-2004-lecture-that-finally-convinced-david-attenborough-about-global-warming/

[Hardcastle]

I think he was smarter when he was younger.

[Hardcastle]

Make no mistake, I care about the environment deeply, More than anything. Climate change is a red herring. It may be true, and still not that important compared to other more important environmental issues we should be addressing. Elevated co2 is not a major concern. It has been far higher in the past. Even extinctions aren't NECESSARILY the major most important thing (there were millions before humans even existed, it's fine). Healthy thriving ecosystems are top priority, fleshed out trophic levels, fully occupied niches. The teachings of the Savory Institute, which have been supressed by the "climate change brigade" are correct and should be priority number 1.

[Deleted]

Created a bunch of alts and threads. Also, I just disliked all of Taipan’s posts.

[Johnson]

Jan 4, 2023 23:31:59 GMT Hardcastle said:

Make no mistake, I care about the environment deeply, More than anything. Climate change is a red herring. It may be true, and still not that important compared to other more important environmental issues we should be addressing. Elevated co2 is not a major concern. It has been far higher in the past. Even extinctions aren't NECESSARILY the major most important thing (there were millions before humans even existed, it's fine). Healthy thriving ecosystems are top priority, fleshed out trophic levels, fully occupied niches. The teachings of the Savory Institute, which have been supressed by the "climate change brigade" are correct and should be priority number 1.

Climate Change has pushed issues like poaching, deforestation, air and ocean pollution to the backburner.

I wonder if Attenborough was forced to change his opinion?

[Deleted]

Jan 4, 2023 23:36:16 GMT @hammerhead said:

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Created a bunch of alts and threads. Also, I just disliked all of Taipan’s posts.

Spammed the living hell out of this forum: www.tapatalk.com/groups/tapatalksupport/index.php

[Hardcastle]

Jan 4, 2023 23:43:05 GMT Johnson said:

Jan 4, 2023 23:31:59 GMT Hardcastle said:

Make no mistake, I care about the environment deeply, More than anything. Climate change is a red herring. It may be true, and still not that important compared to other more important environmental issues we should be addressing. Elevated co2 is not a major concern. It has been far higher in the past. Even extinctions aren't NECESSARILY the major most important thing (there were millions before humans even existed, it's fine). Healthy thriving ecosystems are top priority, fleshed out trophic levels, fully occupied niches. The teachings of the Savory Institute, which have been supressed by the "climate change brigade" are correct and should be priority number 1.

Climate Change has pushed issues like poaching, deforestation, air and ocean pollution to the backburner.

I wonder if Attenborough was forced to change his opinion?

Seems like it, there's something big at play here.

Attenborough's number one thing was always to NEVER preach, instead teach, and then allow people to come to their own conclusions about loving and protecting nature and wildlife. In the mid-late 2000s he switched to preaching the climate change agenda, carbon footprints and all that crap, and it is total bullshit that isn't addressing the real threats to the natural world. It's like he experienced a philosophy/principle/knowledge lobotomy.

[Hardcastle]

Jan 4, 2023 23:36:16 GMT @hammerhead said:

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Created a bunch of alts and threads. Also, I just disliked all of Taipan’s posts.

Yeah I don't know if acting crazy and frantic was necessarily the shrewdest move... but your heart is in the right place. I just hope it doesn't make some sort of proboard authority crack down on our website, but I don't think so. I guess "tapatalk" and proboards aren't the same?

[Deleted]

Jan 5, 2023 0:44:37 GMT Hardcastle said:

Jan 4, 2023 23:36:16 GMT @hammerhead said:

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Created a bunch of alts and threads. Also, I just disliked all of Taipan’s posts.

Yeah I don't know if acting crazy and frantic was necessarily the shrewdest move... but your heart is in the right place. I just hope it doesn't make some sort of proboard authority crack down on our website, but I don't think so. I guess "tapatalk" and proboards aren't the same?

They’re separate entities, competitors actually. Yeah, I did go kind of overboard/berserk there. But he deserves it and then some. I regret nothing.

[Deleted]

I still get “disgruntled” sometimes.