Bull Arab (3) vs Yellowstone Grizzly Bear

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vs

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In truth a single Bull Arab can and will beat the shit out of a grizzly bear, but it wouldn't be able to kill it. I don't think 2 dogs would be able to do it either. So 3 it is.

[Hardcastle]

A big grizz is gonna be a tall order to kill. I think 3 bull arabs could make it look silly for a good while, but I dunno... The bear should prevail in the end.

If you searched "bear hunt art" you'd be forgiven for thinking the bull arab is a bear hunting dog by design, practically every artwork of bear hunting from the old days features dogs identical to bull arabs-









I think there's something to this, I think these bear hunting dogs likely were bred similarly to bull arabs and were basically the same animal, and I also think this speaks of how well suited bull arabs could be for hunting bears if given that application.

[Deleted]

Oct 19, 2022 1:53:04 GMT Hardcastle said:

A big grizz is gonna be a tall order to kill. I think 3 bull arabs could make it look silly for a good while, but I dunno... The bear should prevail in the end.

If you searched "bear hunt art" you'd be forgiven for thinking the bull arab is a bear hunting dog by design, practically every artwork of bear hunting from the old days features dogs identical to bull arabs-









I think there's something to this, I think these bear hunting dogs likely were bred similarly to bull arabs and were basically the same animal, and I also think this speaks of how well suited bull arabs could be for hunting bears if given that application.

I chose a Yellowstone Grizzly Bear because they average around 400lbs last time I checked. Do you think that's small enough to lose to 3 BAs?

[Deleted]

Do you think most bear hunting was done with just 1-3 dogs like with boar hunts? In ancient boar hunting illustrations they show a pack of dogs all over the place getting tossed around when usually boar hunting is done with just 1-3 dogs.

[Hardcastle]

If so it's gonna have a really bad time, yeah. Even these Eurasian brown bears that were regularly hunted with this style of dog average 550 - 600 lbs, and up to 1000 lbs. Still a very tough ask for the dogs to kill it, that will take a long time.

[Hardcastle]

Oct 19, 2022 2:02:40 GMT Bolushi said:

Do you think most bear hunting was done with just 1-3 dogs like with boar hunts? In ancient boar hunting illustrations they show a pack of dogs all over the place getting tossed around when usually boar hunting is done with just 1-3 dogs.

Yeah they liked to be dramatic. They always presented the most epic scene possible where many dogs were being strewn about and decimated. A lot of the time in reality it would have been a lot less dramatic and gone much more smoothly. Every hunt wasn't total carnage like that.

[Deleted]

With bear hunts, is the objective of the hunter for the hunting dogs to merely bail the bear up rather than lug it like they would with a boar? Would they leave the catch-dogs at home?

If so, I'd imagine the number of dogs that are able to bail a bear would not be the same number of dogs required to actually engage and kill a bear.

For a 400 lb grizzly I'll say you need a good 4 - 5 dogs to kill the bear, 3 -4 to achieve combat parity. Due to superior durability and grappling/controlling ability, I think the dogs would be better suited for killing a 400 lb lion than a 400 lb grizz, that is would require more dogs to take the parity bear than the lion.

When the dogs engage, the bear is durable enough that it can concentrate on holding down and disabling one dog at a time without to some degree taking disabling damage while the other dogs savage at it.

[Deleted]

Dec 19, 2022 14:45:15 GMT @ajay said:

With bear hunts, is the objective of the hunter for the hunting dogs to merely bail the bear up rather than lug it like they would with a boar? Would they leave the catch-dogs at home?

If so, I'd imagine the number of dogs that are able to bail a bear would not be the same number of dogs required to actually engage and kill a bear.

For a 400 lb grizzly I'll say you need a good 4 - 5 dogs to kill the bear, 3 -4 to achieve combat parity. Due to superior durability and grappling/controlling ability, I think the dogs would be better suited for killing a 400 lb lion than a 400 lb grizz, that is would require more dogs to take the parity bear than the lion.

When the dogs engage, the bear is durable enough that it can concentrate on holding down and disabling one dog at a time without to some degree taking disabling damage while the other dogs savage at it.

Nah, a lion would just grapple down a dog and kill it instantly. Rinse and repeat. Bears cannot. If you tied down the lion and bear, the lion would die first, but the lion is more efficient at killing each dog and the dogs would have a hard time getting a hold to neutralize the lion. And if they did they still have 4 very powerful forelimbs to deal with. It's not like a cougar where you can just wheel around it.
A dog can latch onto a bear's ear/face and the bear can't do shit. Then the other dogs can maul it elsewhere or also latch onto its face.

[Deleted]

Dec 19, 2022 15:03:15 GMT Bolushi said:

Dec 19, 2022 14:45:15 GMT @ajay said:

With bear hunts, is the objective of the hunter for the hunting dogs to merely bail the bear up rather than lug it like they would with a boar? Would they leave the catch-dogs at home?

If so, I'd imagine the number of dogs that are able to bail a bear would not be the same number of dogs required to actually engage and kill a bear.

For a 400 lb grizzly I'll say you need a good 4 - 5 dogs to kill the bear, 3 -4 to achieve combat parity. Due to superior durability and grappling/controlling ability, I think the dogs would be better suited for killing a 400 lb lion than a 400 lb grizz, that is would require more dogs to take the parity bear than the lion.

When the dogs engage, the bear is durable enough that it can concentrate on holding down and disabling one dog at a time without to some degree taking disabling damage while the other dogs savage at it.

Nah, a lion would just grapple down a dog and kill it instantly. Rinse and repeat. Bears cannot. If you tied down the lion and bear, the lion would die first, but the lion is more efficient at killing each dog and the dogs would have a hard time getting a hold to neutralize the lion. And if they did they still have 4 very powerful forelimbs to deal with. It's not like a cougar where you can just wheel around it.
A dog can latch onto a bear's ear/face and the bear can't do shit. Then the other dogs can maul it elsewhere or also latch onto its face.

I'm aware the parity lion has the superior killing bite to the bear. Is that the main reason the lion would kill a dog more efficiently?

I can see how the dogs would be latching onto the bear. But why can't they do that as well with the lion, after all the bear's 4 limbs are at least as powerful as the lion's. Is it the bear's posture or mode of movement, or its more grabbable hide?

[Deleted]

Dec 19, 2022 15:19:23 GMT @ajay said:

Dec 19, 2022 15:03:15 GMT Bolushi said:

Nah, a lion would just grapple down a dog and kill it instantly. Rinse and repeat. Bears cannot. If you tied down the lion and bear, the lion would die first, but the lion is more efficient at killing each dog and the dogs would have a hard time getting a hold to neutralize the lion. And if they did they still have 4 very powerful forelimbs to deal with. It's not like a cougar where you can just wheel around it.
A dog can latch onto a bear's ear/face and the bear can't do shit. Then the other dogs can maul it elsewhere or also latch onto its face.

I'm aware the parity lion has the superior killing bite to the bear. Is that the main reason the lion would kill a dog more efficiently?

I can see how the dogs would be latching onto the bear. But why can't they do that as well with the lion, after all the bear's 4 limbs are at least as powerful as the lion's. Is it the bear's posture, speed or mode of movement, or its more grabbable hide?

[Deleted]

Dec 19, 2022 15:19:23 GMT @ajay said:

Dec 19, 2022 15:03:15 GMT Bolushi said:

Nah, a lion would just grapple down a dog and kill it instantly. Rinse and repeat. Bears cannot. If you tied down the lion and bear, the lion would die first, but the lion is more efficient at killing each dog and the dogs would have a hard time getting a hold to neutralize the lion. And if they did they still have 4 very powerful forelimbs to deal with. It's not like a cougar where you can just wheel around it.
A dog can latch onto a bear's ear/face and the bear can't do shit. Then the other dogs can maul it elsewhere or also latch onto its face.

I'm aware the parity lion has the superior killing bite to the bear. Is that the main reason the lion would kill a dog more efficiently?

I can see how the dogs would be latching onto the bear. But why can't they do that as well with the lion, after all the bear's 4 limbs are at least as powerful as the lion's. Is it the bear's posture or mode of movement, or its more grabbable hide?

The bear is slower and yes, its mode of movement, more grabbable body and inclinations all make the bear more like a dexterous boar than a lion. Plus the bear can't kill quickly. Eventually the lead dog might get caught by the bear and... get some skin torn off and its shoulder muscles exposed I guess.
It's also a giant target and the dogs will find it much easier to get a hold to neutralize/minimize its retaliations. 

[Deleted]

Also I'd suggest they used those 130-140lb lanky boarhounds to pull the bear to a full stop by the face in pairs of 2-3. Lot of stopping power there. Would explain why they don't use 85-100lb boarhounds mostly in the illustrations. Or bull terriers.

[Deleted]

Dec 19, 2022 15:25:22 GMT Bolushi said:

Dec 19, 2022 15:19:23 GMT @ajay said:

I'm aware the parity lion has the superior killing bite to the bear. Is that the main reason the lion would kill a dog more efficiently?

I can see how the dogs would be latching onto the bear. But why can't they do that as well with the lion, after all the bear's 4 limbs are at least as powerful as the lion's. Is it the bear's posture or mode of movement, or its more grabbable hide?

The bear is slower and yes, its mode of movement, more grabbable body and inclinations all make the bear more like a dexterous boar than a lion. Plus the bear can't kill quickly. Eventually the lead dog might get caught by the bear and... get some skin torn off and its shoulder muscles exposed I guess.

Ah like a dexterous boar. Very interesting! I can envisage what you're talking about, and the fact the bear isn't an efficient killer I see would be a problem when up against multiple opponents.

[Deleted]

I think you might have given me your take on this before but I forget. Where are you on parity grizz vs lion? Used to be "lion", irrc.

I think Antonio favours the bear on that matchup. I used to go with lion in years gone by, but have since become not so sure, especially where it's a contest of superior control and durability (the bear) vs superior killing ability (the lion). Normally the animal with superior control wins out over killing ability, as is the case with say bulldog vs sighthound.