Good introductions to Australia

[Deleted]

@hardcastle when I grow up I want to be a smuggler and send you cubs. Deal? Lol... actually might send you lynxes and cougars though.
Leopard
Lynx/Bobcat
Striped/Brown hyena
Dhole/AWD
Cougar
Black/Grizzly Bear
Gray Wolf
Coyote
Hippo
Rhino
Alligator
Warthog
Jaguar
Kudu
Nilgai
How do you think the above would do if I smuggled you 100 babies and then you let them mature into subadults and threw them out into the wilderness in various locations in small groups? (e.g. 10 per area)
How do you think they'd contribute to the ecosystem? Positively or negatively?

[Deleted]

^Interesting concept. Grizzly bears would easily be the apex predator. Dholes or AWDs would outcompete dingoes. The cougars would prey on the nilgai. Alligators would dominate freshwater crocodiles but get dominated themselves by salties. Kudu might compete with kangaroos. Etc…

[lincoln]

Dec 23, 2022 5:23:55 GMT Bolushi said:

@hardcastle when I grow up I want to be a smuggler and send you cubs. Deal? Lol... actually might send you lynxes and cougars though.
Leopard
Lynx/Bobcat
Striped/Brown hyena
Dhole/AWD
Cougar
Black/Grizzly Bear
Gray Wolf
Coyote
Hippo
Rhino
Alligator
Warthog
Jaguar
Kudu
Nilgai
How do you think the above would do if I smuggled you 100 babies and then you let them mature into subadults and threw them out into the wilderness in various locations in small groups? (e.g. 10 per area)
How do you think they'd contribute to the ecosystem? Positively or negatively?

I would actually like to see how cheetahs would do in Australia

[Deleted]

Dec 23, 2022 10:18:38 GMT lincoln said:

Dec 23, 2022 5:23:55 GMT Bolushi said:

@hardcastle when I grow up I want to be a smuggler and send you cubs. Deal? Lol... actually might send you lynxes and cougars though.
Leopard
Lynx/Bobcat
Striped/Brown hyena
Dhole/AWD
Cougar
Black/Grizzly Bear
Gray Wolf
Coyote
Hippo
Rhino
Alligator
Warthog
Jaguar
Kudu
Nilgai
How do you think the above would do if I smuggled you 100 babies and then you let them mature into subadults and threw them out into the wilderness in various locations in small groups? (e.g. 10 per area)
How do you think they'd contribute to the ecosystem? Positively or negatively?

I would actually like to see how cheetahs would do in Australia

Cheetahs would probably do alright I think. Very open area, but the feral pigs might run them off their kills. Dingoes as well. They'd get fucked over in the top end.

[Hardcastle]

Cool topic. I'm actually a big advocate for introducing species to Australia. I don't buy into the idea we need to preserve the native landscape the way it is because the fact is it's broken and has been for 50 000 odd years. Ecological health is about fleshed out trophic levels, not "native animals". There are great faunal and floral interchanges all through history on practically every continent and it's no big deal. What is a big deal is having empty niches, everything suffers. A lot of Australia is a wasteland of scrubby gum trees, ants, venomous snakes and little else. That sucks.

I don't believe most bears could survive in Australia. I think it's a bad fit, there's kind of a shortage of most of their food, but possibly the sloth bear as there's no shortage of ants and termites.

I think rhinos and hippos both could survive in northern Australia quite well.

We already had blackbuck antelope in a small introduced population that fizzled out, but I'd like to try again. If that could get established cheetahs would be an excellent addition.

That's the thing, with predators I think you generally should set a platform of prey first (and a platform of habitat/vegetation for said prey first). A lot of Australia would need to be improved to get back to a flourishing wilderness with full trophic levels. The expansive Eucalyptus forests cleared into patches with more grass in between them. Possibly re-route more water inland as well.

It could be done and would actually involve using cattle and goats to mend the landscape in accordance with the principles of the Savory institute, but that's another long story.

Your list for me is a little predator heavy. And some fairly redundant ones too. We have dogs covered I don't think we need wolves. Maybe one day down the line you could think about dholes or awds if everything was really popping off.

First thing I'd do is let everything already here thrive -

Mice and rats
European Rabbit
European Brown hare
Red Fox
Feral cat
Feral dog
Feral goat
Feral sheep
Brumbies
Scrub cattle
Asiatic water buffalo
Feral pig
Banteng
Camel
Hog deer
Sambar
Chital
Fallow deer
Rusa
Red deer


Then I'd like to see added -

Jerboa
Desert Jackrabbit (whether black-tailed or antelope jackrabbit, or both)
Mara
Tarsier
Duiker
Rhea
Bushbuck
Blackbuck antelope
Barasingha
Nilgai
Brontebok
Red hartebeest
Topi
Oryx
Guanaco
Vicuna
Collared peccary
Lowland tapir
Pygmy Hippo
White Rhino

And these predators-
Bateleur eagle
Slender mongoose
Tayra
Honey badger
Caracal
Striped hyena
Cheetah
Cougar (or possibly leopard, one or the other, not both)
Sloth bear

Possible inclusions later -
Jaguar
AWD
Alligator

Note- even though I think tigers would work well (especially after all these inclusions), I wouldn't want them. Even jaguar is questionable. I wouldn't want Australia to lose running catch dogs.

I'm also intentionally leaving out any primates just because they are gross. Tarsier excepted as it's barely a primate. I may consider lemurs, then fossas to keep them in line.

I think some natives would unavoidably suffer for sure. I suspect though that red and grey kangaroos and emus could potentially persist, since they are doing so well. Also rakali and platypus. Maybe even bandicoots and pussums, though... They may struggle once the tayra gets going. I'd actually WANT venomous snakes to tone it down a bit and be suppressed somewhat by the mongoose, ratel and bateleur (probably tayra and caracal too). We have too many and they are out of control.
I think crocs would be happy. I think our various monitor lizards would be too.

If things went pear shaped, say tonnes of our birds go extinct, I'd just introduce birds from Africa, India and South America. I'm holding back now to give native birds a chance. I have no beef with them but... Survival of the fittest.
I'd likewise love for Australian frogs to take off, but if they can't we'd have to bring in hardier more resilient frogs.
If there's one introduced animal I don't like it probably is the cane toad because it seems to give headaches to native frogs and I do like frogs and think we need lots of frogs. So more cane toad compatible frogs may be necessary.

[Deleted]

@hardcastle

I'd likewise love for Australian frogs to take off, but if they can't we'd have to bring in hardier more resilient frogs.
If there's one introduced animal I don't like it probably is the cane toad because it seems to give headaches to native frogs and I do like frogs and think we need lots of frogs. So more cane toad compatible frogs may be necessary.

I think American spadefoot toads as well as Colorado River toads could be a good fit in the arid climate. Maybe also smaller species of tortoise? 

[Deleted]

Dec 23, 2022 20:42:08 GMT Hardcastle said:

Cool topic. I'm actually a big advocate for introducing species to Australia. I don't buy into the idea we need to preserve the native landscape the way it is because the fact is it's broken and has been for 50 000 odd years. Ecological health is about fleshed out trophic levels, not "native animals". There are great faunal and floral interchanges all through history on practically every continent and it's no big deal. What is a big deal is having empty niches, everything suffers. A lot of Australia is a wasteland of scrubby gum trees, ants, venomous snakes and little else. That sucks.

I don't believe most bears could survive in Australia. I think it's a bad fit, there's kind of a shortage of most of their food, but possibly the sloth bear as there's no shortage of ants and termites.

I think rhinos and hippos both could survive in northern Australia quite well.

We already had blackbuck antelope in a small introduced population that fizzled out, but I'd like to try again. If that could get established cheetahs would be an excellent addition.

That's the thing, with predators I think you generally should set a platform of prey first (and a platform of habitat/vegetation for said prey first). A lot of Australia would need to be improved to get back to a flourishing wilderness with full trophic levels. The expansive Eucalyptus forests cleared into patches with more grass in between them. Possibly re-route more water inland as well.

It could be done and would actually involve using cattle and goats to mend the landscape in accordance with the principles of the Savory institute, but that's another long story.

Your list for me is a little predator heavy. And some fairly redundant ones too. We have dogs covered I don't think we need wolves. Maybe one day down the line you could think about dholes or awds if everything was really popping off.

First thing I'd do is let everything already here thrive -

Mice and rats
European Rabbit
European Brown hare
Red Fox
Feral cat
Feral dog
Feral goat
Feral sheep
Brumbies
Scrub cattle
Asiatic water buffalo
Feral pig
Banteng
Camel
Hog deer
Sambar
Chital
Fallow deer
Rusa
Red deer


Then I'd like to see added -

Jerboa
Desert Jackrabbit (whether black-tailed or antelope jackrabbit, or both)
Mara
Tarsier
Duiker
Rhea
Bushbuck
Blackbuck antelope
Barasingha
Nilgai
Brontebok
Red hartebeest
Topi
Oryx
Guanaco
Vicuna
Collared peccary
Lowland tapir
Pygmy Hippo
White Rhino

And these predators-
Bateleur eagle
Slender mongoose
Tayra
Honey badger
Caracal
Striped hyena
Cheetah
Cougar (or possibly leopard, one or the other, not both)
Sloth bear

Possible inclusions later -
Jaguar
AWD
Alligator

Note- even though I think tigers would work well (especially after all these inclusions), I wouldn't want them. Even jaguar is questionable. I wouldn't want Australia to lose running catch dogs.

I'm also intentionally leaving out any primates just because they are gross. Tarsier excepted as it's barely a primate. I may consider lemurs, then fossas to keep them in line.

I think some natives would unavoidably suffer for sure. I suspect though that red and grey kangaroos and emus could potentially persist, since they are doing so well. Also rakali and platypus. Maybe even bandicoots and pussums, though... They may struggle once the tayra gets going. I'd actually WANT venomous snakes to tone it down a bit and be suppressed somewhat by the mongoose, ratel and bateleur (probably tayra and caracal too). We have too many and they are out of control.
I think crocs would be happy. I think our various monitor lizards would be too.

If things went pear shaped, say tonnes of our birds go extinct, I'd just introduce birds from Africa, India and South America. I'm holding back now to give native birds a chance. I have no beef with them but... Survival of the fittest.
I'd likewise love for Australian frogs to take off, but if they can't we'd have to bring in hardier more resilient frogs.
If there's one introduced animal I don't like it probably is the cane toad because it seems to give headaches to native frogs and I do like frogs and think we need lots of frogs. So more cane toad compatible frogs may be necessary.

How about Aye-Aye lemurs?

[Hardcastle]

Nah too gross and weird.

[oldgreengrolar]

Cougars and leopards would make themselves at home.

[lincoln]

Dec 24, 2022 3:56:42 GMT Hardcastle said:

Nah too gross and weird.

What about ring tailed lemurs?

[Hardcastle]

Dec 27, 2022 11:50:06 GMT lincoln said:

Dec 24, 2022 3:56:42 GMT Hardcastle said:

Nah too gross and weird.

What about ring tailed lemurs?

They're all kind of weird, but I think I'd go with the Red Ruffed Lemur-

[Deleted]

What are your thoughts on striped/brown and spotted hyenas in Australia?

[Hardcastle]

Striped or brown hyenas could potentially survive in parts of Australia as it is I guess (as could, I believe, leopards and pumas). I think spotted hyena probably would need to have more prey animals pumped in first. As would lions and tigers. I think you need a very abundant expansive flourishing system teeming, or even overloaded, with prey animals before predators like that are viable. That's why they are so endangered. It's not about hunting by man, it's about the kind of habitat and prey abundance they require. I don't think Australia has it. Most of Africa doesn't even have it. Just little pockets in Africa and India, basically the protected parks that we see on nature documentaries where every direction you look are great herds of varied wild beasts. Everywhere SHOULD look like that, but hardly anywhere on earth does and pretty much no where in Australia.
We could turn somewhere like Kakadu/Arnhemland into the Serengetti-

But you'd start with wildebeest and zebra and etc etc etc. You wouldn't start with spotted hyenas. You'd need to lay a platform for them.

[lincoln]

Dec 27, 2022 19:11:49 GMT Hardcastle said:

Striped or brown hyenas could potentially survive in parts of Australia as it is I guess (as could, I believe, leopards and pumas). I think spotted hyena probably would need to have more prey animals pumped in first. As would lions and tigers. I think you need a very abundant expansive flourishing system teeming, or even overloaded, with prey animals before predators like that are viable. That's why they are so endangered. It's not about hunting by man, it's about the kind of habitat and prey abundance they require. I don't think Australia has it. Most of Africa doesn't even have it. Just little pockets in Africa and India, basically the protected parks that we see on nature documentaries where every direction you look are great herds of varied wild beasts. Everywhere SHOULD look like that, but hardly anywhere on earth does and pretty much no where in Australia.
We could turn somewhere like Kakadu/Arnhemland into the Serengetti-

But you'd start with wildebeest and zebra and etc etc etc. You wouldn't start with spotted hyenas. You'd need to lay a platform for them.

What about Fossa?

[Hardcastle]

Fossa would have too much success on possums and koalas. I think they'd just eat themselves out of house and home, build up a big population which would then starve to death. You'd need to introduce worthy prey for them as well, and say goodbye to the arboreal native Australian marsupials.