Musth
Ruminant
Posts: 141
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Post by Musth on Jun 21, 2023 1:12:22 GMT
Well it is factually definitely stronger. The slowness could be an issue. I don't feel good about the prospect of a bulldog (and I mean a hardcore working bulldog) because it's just not as quick as I think you need to be to really keep pace with a wild animal. It is literally designed to lug a cornered bayed wild animal that has assumed a fighting position, then you release the bulldog and it meets the prey animal in the fight it is now inviting. But when we talk about being able to force the fight on an evasive wild animal, they leave a lot to be desired, and that is why bull-lurchers exist (and to an extent, bull terriers as well). Even bull lurchers can be found wanting in speed compared to many wild animals, and that is why 1/4 bull lurchers exist. I don’t believe a Bulldog can beat a Mackenzie Valley Wolf at all. The only dogs I think that could beat a Mackenzie Valley Wolf are an Irish Wolfhound or Great Dane. Something strong but is the size of a wolf. Funnily enough Irish Wolfhounds actually worked with Irish wolves, hence their name, and Great Danes worked with Mackenzie Valley Wolves. Regardless both are similar enough, and i’ll go with them two. Oh, and LGD’s. Like Bolushi pointed out, its wrong that Eurasian Wolves are automatically doomed with LGD’s. But I would think that a Mackenzie Valley Wolf due to their sizes would still give any Kangal or Anatolian Shepherd a hard time, but not be indefeatable. Usually this is why the LGD’s that go against wolves have size, strength and numbers. They’re practically compacted with everything they need to defeat a wolf. I do acknowledge due to the Bulldogs strength, Bulldogs could hypothetically knock a wolf onto its back and maul it. But for the Bulldog to win everything would need to be perfect. Meaning, the wolf doesn’t get a bite in and the wolf is on its back where the bulldog can keep the wolf and have the advantage. But im not seeing this scenario happening. I do believe a Bulldog is stronger to some degree, as bulldogs seem to have been bred for an advanced gripping bite and a want to subdue, where as wolves usually prefer gripping and subduing when hunting. With fighting, they seem to use a mix of all. Snap-bites, muzzle bites, neck bites and grappling bites. That gives the wolf the advantage since it seems to use a mix of everything when it fights as compared to the bulldog which would be more focused on the gripping bite more than anything. But I still do not believe a Bulldog is stronger overall. Stronger is subjective, and I assume you’re meaning that the bulldog is dominant over the wolf here when it comes to overall body structure. To some level this is true, Bulldogs have been bred for gameness and durability. This ensures that humans have a perfect subduing dog. But this is not talking about hunting here, this is talking about fights. So generally, a bulldog would have more gameness and durability than a wolf in lets say hunting, but it all crashes when we talk about fights. I have never even heard of a bulldog beating a wolf, and the only time I have heard of them is some guys which have some backgrounds which aren’t reputable in some shape or form. Nice post. I agree LGD are the best with dealing against wolves and to be honest dealing and even engaging predators toe to toe in general. As far Irish wolfhound and Great Dane in the past sure…. Present day not so much very few have any working stock left. Just as pets. Closest thing today to the Irish wolfhound is the galgo patagonico. As far as Great Danes are concerned the Bully Kutta(arguably a Great Dane variant which stayed in India and Pakistan) would be your best bet. In fact they are basically and exclusively used as a fighting dog so they would perform better against wolves then just pure boarhounds which the Great Dane was originally used as. And yes bulldogs are p4p much physically stronger. But a McKenzie wolf would have a huge size advantage. Maybe the size advantage would most likely make up for the wolf, and give the wolf the strength advantage. Just depends the size of the wolf and bulldog(and of course individuals matter too). Although a 80lbs bulldog would be stronger than a 100lbs wolf. A 50lbs bulldog however is gonna be weaker(most likely. Im not talking fighting prowess here. I’m talking pure physical maximal strength. Also there’s different categories of strength too. Maximal strength, endurance strength, power, speed strength, etc. |
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Wyatt
Ruminant
Posts: 178
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Post by Wyatt on Jun 21, 2023 1:28:10 GMT
I don’t believe a Bulldog can beat a Mackenzie Valley Wolf at all. The only dogs I think that could beat a Mackenzie Valley Wolf are an Irish Wolfhound or Great Dane. Something strong but is the size of a wolf. Funnily enough Irish Wolfhounds actually worked with Irish wolves, hence their name, and Great Danes worked with Mackenzie Valley Wolves. Regardless both are similar enough, and i’ll go with them two. Oh, and LGD’s. Like Bolushi pointed out, its wrong that Eurasian Wolves are automatically doomed with LGD’s. But I would think that a Mackenzie Valley Wolf due to their sizes would still give any Kangal or Anatolian Shepherd a hard time, but not be indefeatable. Usually this is why the LGD’s that go against wolves have size, strength and numbers. They’re practically compacted with everything they need to defeat a wolf. I do acknowledge due to the Bulldogs strength, Bulldogs could hypothetically knock a wolf onto its back and maul it. But for the Bulldog to win everything would need to be perfect. Meaning, the wolf doesn’t get a bite in and the wolf is on its back where the bulldog can keep the wolf and have the advantage. But im not seeing this scenario happening. I do believe a Bulldog is stronger to some degree, as bulldogs seem to have been bred for an advanced gripping bite and a want to subdue, where as wolves usually prefer gripping and subduing when hunting. With fighting, they seem to use a mix of all. Snap-bites, muzzle bites, neck bites and grappling bites. That gives the wolf the advantage since it seems to use a mix of everything when it fights as compared to the bulldog which would be more focused on the gripping bite more than anything. But I still do not believe a Bulldog is stronger overall. Stronger is subjective, and I assume you’re meaning that the bulldog is dominant over the wolf here when it comes to overall body structure. To some level this is true, Bulldogs have been bred for gameness and durability. This ensures that humans have a perfect subduing dog. But this is not talking about hunting here, this is talking about fights. So generally, a bulldog would have more gameness and durability than a wolf in lets say hunting, but it all crashes when we talk about fights. I have never even heard of a bulldog beating a wolf, and the only time I have heard of them is some guys which have some backgrounds which aren’t reputable in some shape or form. Nice post. I agree LGD are the best with dealing against wolves and to be honest dealing and even engaging predators toe to toe in general. As far Irish wolfhound and Great Dane in the past sure…. Present day not so much very few have any working stock left. Just as pets. Closest thing today to the Irish wolfhound is the galgo patagonico. As far as Great Danes are concerned the Bully Kutta(arguably a Great Dane variant which stayed in India and Pakistan) would be your best bet. In fact they are basically and exclusively used as a fighting dog so they would perform better against wolves then just pure boarhounds which the Great Dane was originally used as. And yes bulldogs are p4p much physically stronger. But a McKenzie wolf would have a huge size advantage. Maybe the size advantage would most likely make up for the wolf, and give the wolf the strength advantage. Just depends the size of the wolf and bulldog(and of course individuals matter too). Although a 80lbs bulldog would be stronger than a 100lbs wolf. A 50lbs bulldog however is gonna be weaker(most likely. Im not talking fighting prowess here. I’m talking pure physical maximal strength. Also there’s different categories of strength too. Maximal strength, endurance strength, power, speed strength, etc. Yes, thats why I gave the upper hand of the durability, gameness, and the want to subdue to the bulldog. Due to the humans desire to make a perfect subduing dog, they made a dog into that, and that is the bulldog. Yet I don’t see the gripping bite of the bulldog doing much to a wolf. Wolves use basically all types of bites, but the one you’ll see a wolf doing the most is what I call a “snap-and-grip” which is basically using a snapping bite and then holding down on the grip. That is what the wolf uses, and the bulldog here is extremely unlikely to not be affected by that. Now Hardcastle’s analogy I did take into perspective, but like I said before is just that, that could happen but the circumstances would need to be perfect. |
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Musth
Ruminant
Posts: 141
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Post by Musth on Jun 21, 2023 1:31:40 GMT
The match is kind of simple to me. The wolf needs to win quickly imo. The longer the wolf waits the more it gets in a sink hole…. The wolf won’t outlast the dog.
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Wyatt
Ruminant
Posts: 178
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Post by Wyatt on Jun 21, 2023 1:33:48 GMT
The match is kind of simple to me. The wolf needs to win quickly imo. The longer the wolf waits the more it gets in a sink hole…. The wolf won’t outlast the dog. Snapping bites are pretty quick, check out wolf fights (not videos, images and research) |
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Wyatt
Ruminant
Posts: 178
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Post by Wyatt on Jun 21, 2023 1:34:44 GMT
Oh btw I made a mistake here, Great Danes did not work with Mackenzie Valley Wolves, they worked with the timber wolves before they were eradicated.
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Post by Bolushi on Jun 21, 2023 1:40:03 GMT
Oh btw I made a mistake here, Great Danes did not work with Mackenzie Valley Wolves, they worked with the timber wolves before they were eradicated. No difference |
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Wyatt
Ruminant
Posts: 178
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Post by Wyatt on Jun 21, 2023 1:40:57 GMT
Oh btw I made a mistake here, Great Danes did not work with Mackenzie Valley Wolves, they worked with the timber wolves before they were eradicated. No difference Yes but I want to make sure my argument has no mistakes |
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Musth
Ruminant
Posts: 141
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Post by Musth on Jun 21, 2023 2:02:11 GMT
The match is kind of simple to me. The wolf needs to win quickly imo. The longer the wolf waits the more it gets in a sink hole…. The wolf won’t outlast the dog. Snapping bites are pretty quick, check out wolf fights (not videos, images and research) Yeah I have. I even know about their mythical “skull bite”. Yes I have seen the scientific literature too. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jun 21, 2023 3:42:10 GMT
Well it is factually definitely stronger. The slowness could be an issue. I don't feel good about the prospect of a bulldog (and I mean a hardcore working bulldog) because it's just not as quick as I think you need to be to really keep pace with a wild animal. It is literally designed to lug a cornered bayed wild animal that has assumed a fighting position, then you release the bulldog and it meets the prey animal in the fight it is now inviting. But when we talk about being able to force the fight on an evasive wild animal, they leave a lot to be desired, and that is why bull-lurchers exist (and to an extent, bull terriers as well). Even bull lurchers can be found wanting in speed compared to many wild animals, and that is why 1/4 bull lurchers exist. I don’t believe a Bulldog can beat a Mackenzie Valley Wolf at all. The only dogs I think that could beat a Mackenzie Valley Wolf are an Irish Wolfhound or Great Dane. Something strong but is the size of a wolf. Funnily enough Irish Wolfhounds actually worked with Irish wolves, hence their name, and Great Danes worked with Mackenzie Valley Wolves. Regardless both are similar enough, and i’ll go with them two. Oh, and LGD’s. Like Bolushi pointed out, its wrong that Eurasian Wolves are automatically doomed with LGD’s. But I would think that a Mackenzie Valley Wolf due to their sizes would still give any Kangal or Anatolian Shepherd a hard time, but not be indefeatable. Usually this is why the LGD’s that go against wolves have size, strength and numbers. They’re practically compacted with everything they need to defeat a wolf. I do acknowledge due to the Bulldogs strength, Bulldogs could hypothetically knock a wolf onto its back and maul it. But for the Bulldog to win everything would need to be perfect. Meaning, the wolf doesn’t get a bite in and the wolf is on its back where the bulldog can keep the wolf and have the advantage. But im not seeing this scenario happening. I do believe a Bulldog is stronger to some degree, as bulldogs seem to have been bred for an advanced gripping bite and a want to subdue, where as wolves usually prefer gripping and subduing when hunting. With fighting, they seem to use a mix of all. Snap-bites, muzzle bites, neck bites and grappling bites. That gives the wolf the advantage since it seems to use a mix of everything when it fights as compared to the bulldog which would be more focused on the gripping bite more than anything. But I still do not believe a Bulldog is stronger overall. Stronger is subjective, and I assume you’re meaning that the bulldog is dominant over the wolf here when it comes to overall body structure. To some level this is true, Bulldogs have been bred for gameness and durability. This ensures that humans have a perfect subduing dog. But this is not talking about hunting here, this is talking about fights. So generally, a bulldog would have more gameness and durability than a wolf in lets say hunting, but it all crashes when we talk about fights. I have never even heard of a bulldog beating a wolf, and the only time I have heard of them is some guys which have some backgrounds which aren’t reputable in some shape or form. Stronger is objective, and doesn't mean dominant over anything. It means it has more strength, generates more power with it's body. It could pull or push more weight. It does incidentally probably translate to the bulldog being dominant in an engaged close quarter struggle, it will push or pull the wolf over onto the ground and onto its back using it's superior strength and the wolf won't have the strength to resist that outcome. It is "flimsy" compared to the "sturdy" bulldog. This is not ALWAYS true in a grapple, because the weaker person might understand the physics in wrestling better and use certain weight shifting techniques and strategies against the stronger guy, but the bulldog is the master wrestler here as well. That is actually why bulldogs weirdly take to "skateboarding", funny as that sounds, they intuitively understand weight shifting and leaning and etc, originally for wrestling purposes. The bulldog will be stronger and more talented in a close quarter engagement. Now, whether the bulldog can achieve the close quarter engagement, that is the question. That's what the wolf wants to prevent, and it is also pretty good at preventing that. So for me it all depends on the bulldog's agility and quickness, too cumbersome and "ploddy" of a bulldog and it starts becoming likely it will be pieced up and prevented from securing a hold and taking the wolf down. This is why even baiting bulldogs and dog fighting bulldogs and etc were often outcrossed to both terrier and sighthound. The bulldog in it's pure essence is just a lead in catch dog, aka point and shoot "anchor" to lug a dangerous beast. What's it is stuck to you, you are in trouble, you are in the clutches of "the clinging death" as Jack London called it, BUT it is not necessarily good at securing that hold on a nimble agile and evasive animal. For that bulldogs are admixed, you still want that foundation of wrestling strength and instinctive strategy, but with some speed and skill for securing the grip as well. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jun 21, 2023 3:46:11 GMT
Oh btw I made a mistake here, Great Danes did not work with Mackenzie Valley Wolves, they worked with the timber wolves before they were eradicated. "Great danes", aka european boarhounds, did also play a big role in eradicated Eurasian wolves from much of their range. Not talked about so much, everyone thinks of the Irish wolfhound, but the ancestral boarhounds that spawned the great dane (and the english mastiff for that matter) hunted wolves as well as boars. Boars, bears, wolves, wild cattle and red deer stags all endured persecution from boarhounds. I would say the ancestral boarhounds were closer to bull arabs than they are to modern great danes, but some got very big... so. |
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Post by lincoln on Jul 5, 2023 8:25:52 GMT
Wolf needs to win fast, if the bulldog avoids getting killed fast, the wolfs in trouble. If the bulldog gets a good grip the wolfs in trouble
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